POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: Joe K on February 19, 2013, 02:51:09 pm
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Every once in a while, someone posts a “Forum Unity” thread, expressing frustration over how they perceive they have been treated in the forums and asking: “Why can’t we all just get along?” They generally include complaints, that range from being bullied to not being respected for their views and to be honest, most of them end very badly and are eventually locked.
At first, it may seem easy to dismiss such posts as “sour grapes”, as they happen infrequently, yet somehow the theme seems to recur with somewhat regularity. In a community such as this, friction, tension and disagreement are often part of the discussion, because we are dealing with HIV/AIDS. As those of us who live with HIV well know, HIV is not for the faint of heart. The disease comes with so much baggage that conflicts are to be expected, at times, even encouraged, because we are dealing with a very complicated and ruthless adversary.
Most of the posts here are informative, supportive, funny, sad, what have you, but still, we have some members who feel as if they have been “disrespected” by their peers. Many times, their frustration with the forums can be attributed to their newness to the forums and simply learning the way of the forums. Just like any group of people, we have our rules, our customs and our own individuality and for some folks, that requires some major adjustments and eventually, most of us make it… but some of us do not.
Granted, some folk’s issues with the forums occur because of their attitude in approaching the forums. If you come into the forums, with a big chip on your shoulder, it shows, one way or the other and some members react strongly. Other times, it may involve delicate subjects that forces us to reconsider our views and some people simply do not like having their views challenged. Still, there are times when a poster comments about being “disrespected” in the forums and a “Forum Unity” thread is born.
My only goal here is to offer some food for thought about this issue, because I believe there may be a common thread that links all forms of “Forum Unity” threads. And that thread may be the confusion over the ideas of respect and dignity. I think for some folks they confuse the two ideas, because respect can only be given to you, by others, whereas dignity is inherent to all human beings, simply because we are all human beings.
For me, dignity is a birthright. When we are born, we have inherent value in being a human being and it is entwined with the very core of our being. Our dignity remains ours for life, as it can never be taken away. Yes, some may attempt to diminish or even extinguish our dignity, but they can never remove our inherent dignity because it is a birthright.
Respect, however, is not a birthright, as it must be earned and can only be given to us by others. We give respect to folks who do things out of the ordinary. They conduct their lives in such a fashion as to be admired by others and they become “respected” for doing things that others wish they could emulate, but for whatever reasons, cannot. For me, I remain in awe of our armed forces and I hold the utmost respect for all of them, because they have chosen to defend the liberties that I hold so dear. Their ability to function in theaters of war is simply beyond my ability and recognizing that they demonstrate so many extraordinary traits, which allow them to serve, earns them my respect.
But just as respect can be given, it can also be taken away. Respect can also vary by custom or culture and actions that are worthy of respect in one country, can be seen very differently in another country. Respect is also open to debate, as we can always discuss which actions or traits are worthy of respect, because again, respect is given and as such its application can be arbitrary.
Dignity suffers no such vulnerabilities. As we age, I think we sometimes become too involved with our own issues and we forget to treat others with dignity. This is the “thread” that I believe ties the “Forum Unity” threads together. In reading many of the past such threads, I keep reading “respect me”, when what I think what the posters really expected was to be treated with dignity.
What I often hear, is a request to simply be accepted as another person living with HIV. For some folks, becoming poz is beyond their wildest fears and they come here, looking for something, anything, which can become a port from the storm. They are asking for minimal acceptance, by a group of people they do not know, so they can feel safe and share their issues. We have all been there, so we know how it feels and maybe remember your first time, the next time you become a little short with a new member.
Let me be perfectly clear, I am not castigating the forum about any particular behaviour, because this forum is a living breathing organism and I wish it to remain so.
The whole idea here is that we treat each member with dignity. Think of it as the foundation of our being a member, in that we all start on the exact same level and go from there. Nobody likes having their feelings hurt and hopefully we can minimize those times. I think one way to do it, is to simply be civil to each other and respect our inherent dignity.
Joe
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Thank you. What a great and well written post!
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Thank you, Joe. Once more you have helped crystallize a notion I have been battling with on this forum for quite a while now. I certainly hope your words do not fall on deaf ears.
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I agree 100%!
Gary
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Great post.
The dichotomy of "taking offense" and responding by "being offensive" is a human challenge we all face.
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When we speak of dignity it reminds me of this chorus
"I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all"
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killfoile,
Thanks for your well written post.
Britchickx
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Hello, I would post this at the end of the thread I opened which recently wandered into this area, but it's been locked.
For the record, that post had nothing to do with forum issues, though I do think that some of the moderators have been here so long that they can no longer tell the fish from the sharks. I would ask that they approach new people with naiveté (innocence, maybe?) and give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than bristling to re-live old fights with people no longer here. Were I in any state to do it, I would volunteer to be a moderator myself, though I feel pretty sure that request would be denied. I also think, like Switzerland, there are too many arbitrary rules here, but hey, if I had my own forum, I could make my own rules. None of this is all that much of a concern in my day-to-day life. ;)
So, I have no substantial complaints about the forums, and I'm sorry my post led down that path needlessly. Thanks to everyone who showed concern. It actually does mean quite a bit to me and was a little unexpected. I don't want to hijack this thread, but since I can't post there, and since starting a new one might start some new shit storm, I'll just toss this out there:
My post was about homelessness and the fact that after a few weeks of stalking in the shadows, it was finally upon me. I thought that would be clear, and I didn't want any sudden disappearance to create suspicion that I'd offed myself, as I've so casually discussed. I should have been much more clear or said nothing at all. :) My access to the Internet is not stable, and I figured when I had the opportunity, I'd be doing other things besides coming here. I'm sorting a few things at my old place right now, so I have access now for a while, and it didn't seem a waste of anyone's time to clear that up. So, forums = good. Homelessness = bad.
To sum up: I'm really sorry that I was the source of all that; some good points were made anyway; all's well that ends well; I wasn't incarcerated or substance abusing; I'm not an Internet troll; laptops/phones/tablets are better than the Hitchhiker's Guide if there's Wi-Fi; I always carry a towel and finally, the pithiest item from the thread: forium putuppmy with me shi8t and ni8ce.
Okidokey? Cheers. :)
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Hello, I would post this at the end of the thread I opened which recently wandered into this area, but it's been locked.
For the record, that post had nothing to do with forum issues, though I do think that some of the moderators have been here so long that they can no longer tell the fish from the sharks. I would ask that they approach new people with naiveté (innocence, maybe?) and give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than bristling to re-live old fights with people no longer here. Were I in any state to do it, I would volunteer to be a moderator myself, though I feel pretty sure that request would be denied. I also think, like Switzerland, there are too many arbitrary rules here, but hey, if I had my own forum, I could make my own rules. None of this is all that much of a concern in my day-to-day life. ;)
So, I have no substantial complaints about the forums, and I'm sorry my post led down that path needlessly. Thanks to everyone who showed concern. It actually does mean quite a bit to me and was a little unexpected. I don't want to hijack this thread, but since I can't post there, and since starting a new one might start some new shit storm, I'll just toss this out there:
My post was about homelessness and the fact that after a few weeks of stalking in the shadows, it was finally upon me. I thought that would be clear, and I didn't want any sudden disappearance to create suspicion that I'd offed myself, as I've so casually discussed. I should have been much more clear or said nothing at all. :) My access to the Internet is not stable, and I figured when I had the opportunity, I'd be doing other things besides coming here. I'm sorting a few things at my old place right now, so I have access now for a while, and it didn't seem a waste of anyone's time to clear that up. So, forums = good. Homelessness = bad.
To sum up: I'm really sorry that I was the source of all that; some good points were made anyway; all's well that ends well; I wasn't incarcerated or substance abusing; I'm not an Internet troll; laptops/phones/tablets are better than the Hitchhiker's Guide if there's Wi-Fi; I always carry a towel and finally, the pithiest item from the thread: forium putuppmy with me shi8t and ni8ce.
Okidokey? Cheers. :)
I want to thank everyone for the kind words regarding my post. My intent with this post WAS NOT to open any old wounds, nor point any fingers at anyone. This issue, of people feeling unconnected to the forum, for whatever reasons has been happening for years and it will continue to happen, because this forum will always be a dynamic place.
The reason for my post was I was reviewing the "Forum Unity" types of threads and started to notice a trend that I thought worth exploring. My goal here is to frame the issue in a new way, to point to behaviour that we wish to share, rather than always lambasting someone because they inadvertently hurt another member. Sometimes we simply do not empathize with new posters and while it's not a lot of members, it is enough for this issue to surface somewhat regularly.
With that being said, Oksikoko, I wish to offer some additional insight, because I believe you are very mistaken about these forums and what is to be found here. The concern expressed to you, based on your description of your living situation, was very real and heart-felt. Some of the posters here, can appear to be a little cold at first, however you know what they say about judging a book by its cover. I can assure you that the support extended by this forum is very real, which you are discovering, even though you thought it was unexpected.
Might I suggest that, that view is a somewhat condescending attitude towards these forums. It also seems to be colouring your opinion of our moderators. While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, you do not know the facts concerning our moderators. Yes they can be cold and demanding, the same way you would be if you were to attempt to herd cats. Their job is not an easy one, however I will point out that most moderators are not as interconnected with their forums, they way ours are intertwined. Our moderators are chosen from our membership and most of them are not paid positions. These fine folks are volunteers and most of us would not have their job, even if you paid us.
That being said, I don't want you to think that this post was in response to only your post. However, your post demonstrated what can occur when misconceptions are allowed to take hold and never brought to light. We will always discuss issues that involve the forums, no matter how many members they may affect. I like to think it's how we keep ourselves honest, but it's really to make sure we reach as many poz folks as humanely as possible.
Joe
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Glad you're back and I hope things work out for you. Unfortunately what happens is people use other folk's threads for their own agenda. Kind of troll-lite if you will.
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With that being said, Oksikoko, I wish to offer some additional insight, because I believe you are very mistaken about these forums and what is to be found here. The concern expressed to you, based on your description of your living situation, was very real and heart-felt. Some of the posters here, can appear to be a little cold at first, however you know what they say about judging a book by its cover. I can assure you that the support extended by this forum is very real, which you are discovering, even though you thought it was unexpected.
Might I suggest that, that view is a somewhat condescending attitude towards these forums. It also seems to be colouring your opinion of our moderators. While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, you do not know the facts concerning our moderators. Yes they can be cold and demanding, the same way you would be if you were to attempt to herd cats. Their job is not an easy one, however I will point out that most moderators are not as interconnected with their forums, they way ours are intertwined. Our moderators are chosen from our membership and most of them are not paid positions. These fine folks are volunteers and most of us would not have their job, even if you paid us.
1) Everyone's been wonderful to me. 2) Not judging the book by its cover. I've seen more than one new person approached through the lens of a grievance that happened before they were even positive. Again, not my forum, so I can't complain. Do with the suggestion what you will. 3) I have other problems to deal with, so I'll leave the forum criticism at that. But no complaints of mine (only two sentences, but both of which I stand by...) were based off of anything but experience and observations, so it's unfair to say I'm judging a book by its cover.
To remind you, my only two complaints were: 1) give new people the benefit of the doubt rather than coming at them through the lens of old grievances from people no longer with us. 2) So many rules...
I'll take back #2, since that's subjective, and who am I to say how many arbitrary rules there should be. Again, Switzerland seems to be doing fine with any number of them.
I stand behind #1. It didn't happen to me, so it's not personal. Everyone's been lovely to me, but no one wants to kick the homeless guy when he's down. ;) I've just seen a lot of comments to new people from those who've been here for a while that are weighed down with baggage from things new people aren't aware of and shouldn't be held accountable for.
Or not. It's all fine by me. Not my forum. ;)
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Glad you're back and I hope things work out for you. Unfortunately what happens is people use other folk's threads for their own agenda. Kind of troll-lite if you will.
Oh, no! I've just done it again! ;)
Thanks. Things will work out as they'll work out. Whether the result is good or bad I leave to God to evaluate. I try not to raise my cortisol levels about it, because no one likes a stressed out homeless guy. Besides, I still eat, and that's plenty to be thankful for and happy about. :) My old complaints seem rather silly now. ;)
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Not only do I agree with your post (Killfoile)....but a pleasure to read as well.
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Oh, no! I've just done it again! ;)
My old complaints seem rather silly now. ;)
Not at all. I was homeless for a short period in my life and I wouldn't wish it on my worst (well maybe a couple) enemy.
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As flawed as this place might be, it remains the best, most accurate, and most carefully researched HIV site on the internet.
The rules put in place were ALL put here for a reason. With some exceptions (no HIV denialism links and the like) the rules and the separate forums were voted on by members - ASKED for by members. If there are rules that rankle anyone, I really would like to see that discussed in another thread.
As for moderators, it's Ann, Andy, Rev. Moon (in the spanish forum), Jeff G, some assorted decidedly hands-off members of POZ.COM, a gentleman whose name escapes me in Research (sorry!) and myself (but only a moderator in AM I INFECTED.)
That's it. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure don't get paid. Those of us who do so do so out of a genuine love and respect for the forums.
Tim Horn, the very heart of these forums for over a decade, is gone. He is missed, and cannot be replaced - or at least, is unlikely to be replaced. S&S makes little to no money off these forums, even with the paid subscriptions in place in AM I INFECTED.
I am just dismayed that this information is not public knowledge. Maybe members would give the mods a break if they knew the thin ice that the forums tread.Even moderated forums, if allowed to criticize (and sometimes condemn) the medications whose companies pay for the site, are a bane to the corporate sponsors who keep this whole thing afloat.
It's not, and has never been, a well oiled machine of professionals tending the place. It's people with Goddamned AIDS trying to make a difference - some of us in the twilight of our lives.
Not looking for kudos. Just pulling the curtain back a bit.
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It's not, and has never been, a well oiled machine of professionals tending the place. It's people with Goddamned AIDS trying to make a difference - some of us in the twilight of our lives.
Not looking for kudos. Just pulling the curtain back a bit.
I never assumed anyone was paid. Such jobs disappeared with Ernestine the switchboard operator, unfortunately.
I've repeatedly expressed gratitude to and for the poz.com forums and moderators, and I'd like to do so again right now. You deserve kudos whether you're asking or not. Forgive me if I'm touchy sometimes. I'm divorced, unemployed, HIV+ and homeless and it makes me a little cranky. ;)
(That's a joke.)
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Joe,
Beautifully put, concise and true. I'm thinking you've become somewhat of a forum Grandfather. You've been around long enough to know the family. Your familiarity with us lets you call BS when it is in fact BS. (no matter how artfully put our BS is) You aren't afraid to take those needing correction to the woodshed. And you're always there to lend an ear, a shoulder, a kind word to those in need. Yet no matter what you speak truth to power. Joe you don't carry the spark, you carry the flame.
Thank you.
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As for moderators, it's Ann, Andy, Rev. Moon (in the spanish forum), Jeff G, some assorted decidedly hands-off members of POZ.COM, a gentleman whose name escapes me in Research (sorry!) and myself (but only a moderator in AM I INFECTED.)
don't forget JR Gabbard over there in "Insurance, Benefits Programs & HIV" ;)
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don't forget JR Gabbard over there in "Insurance, Benefits Programs & HIV" ;)
THAT is who I forgot! God, I am an even worse person than PM cabals make me out.
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Here here!
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Joe,
Beautifully put, concise and true. I'm thinking you've become somewhat of a forum Grandfather. You've been around long enough to know the family. Your familiarity with us lets you call BS when it is in fact BS. (no matter how artfully put our BS is) You aren't afraid to take those needing correction to the woodshed. And you're always there to lend an ear, a shoulder, a kind word to those in need. Yet no matter what you speak truth to power. Joe you don't carry the spark, you carry the flame.
Thank you.
Denver,
For once I am left speechless. Thank you.
Joe