Huh? 6 years for a blowjob vs. 3 years for killing a gay man

[Peter Staley]

See and discuss my latest blog entry here:

http://blogs.poz.com/peter/archives/2008/06/huh_6_years_for.html

[GSOgymrat]

I can somewhat understand why they gave the guy an involuntary manslaughter charge since he appears to not have intended to kill the victim. I still think they should have given him jail time. The blowjob is just ridiculous. The man wasn't forced, he wasn't a minor, the guy stopped when he told him to and it appears this was a first offense. The guy doing the blowing was wrong but there is nothing in that story that justifies jail time. He must have had a terrible lawyer.

[Iggy]

I can somewhat understand why they gave the guy an involuntary manslaughter charge since he appears to not have intended to kill the victim.

I agreed until I read this part:

While no evidence was produced that Moller specifically acted on a hatred for gay people, shortly after the attack he "called a girl that Kennedy was with outside the bar and left a voice message mixed with laughter, profanity, and anti-homosexual epithets bragging about the assault,"

Granted, the legal system probably wouldn't see this as intent to kill even if it shows no remorse or even glee, but it does sicken me.

[Winiroo]

The amount of time given to each man puzzles me. I wonder how they determine how much time a person should serve.
If I woke up and found someone with my crotch in their mouth they would be lucky to have teeth left. That is akin to rape in my book.

I think the man who killed should serve more time than the man who sexually violated.

[bocker3]

Interesting....  I'd love to hear the whole story for each.

3 yrs for killing someone seems a bit low by any stretch -- he may not have "meant" to kill him, but he certainly meant to assault him.  This wasn't an accidental attack -- just one that may have had a far worse result than the perpetrator intended. 

The blow job -- well, I may not be terribly impartial, having been a rape victim -- but rape is rape.  Is six yrs the result of homophobia -- perhaps -- but ask yourself if the victim were a woman would you feel the same?  Male on male rape is often rationalized away, by the victim as well as the public.  Unwanted sexual activity is ALWAYS wrong, whether it involves a minor or not or penetration occurs or not.  Is six years too much??  I don't know, I don't think that I've gotten the whole story.  Is jail time warranted??  Given what I have read, yes.

Mike

(edited to better make a point)

[Winiroo]

I read

The blowjob is just ridiculous. The man wasn't forced, he wasn't a minor, the guy stopped when he told him to and it appears this was a first offense. The guy doing the blowing was wrong but there is nothing in that story that justifies jail time. He must have had a terrible lawyer.

and wondered how many offenses would it take for you to feel jail time was justified.

Just curious...

[GSOgymrat]

I read

and wondered how many offenses would it take for you to feel jail time was justified.

Just curious...

I realized while contemplating a response that I was in a similar situation years ago. My sophomore year of college I was sharing a townhouse with 3 other gay college students, none of whom I had any sexual interest in. One night I awoke in my bed to one of my roommate trying to masturbate me. I initially was startled and said something along the lines of "what the hell are you doing". He told me to chill out and tried to go down on me. I pushed him away and told him to knock it off. Then he asked what was wrong and I angrily told him "get out and don't ever touch me again". The next morning he was mad at me. He was tearful asking why didn't I find him attractive and that he was insulted that I found a guy with a disability more attractive then him (I was dating a guy who wore leg brace because he had polio as a child). This roommate owned the townhouse and wanted me to move out but I refused; I was not about to move just because he had emotional problems. After a couple of weeks he started dating someone and we got to be friends again.

I never thought of that as a sexual assault and the idea of contacting the police about it seems ridiculous. After the initial ick factor I was over it. I don't know about legality but as far as I'm concerned there needs to be some kind of coercion or pattern of behavior to warrant going to jail for sexual assault. If the victim had been drugged or restrained, if the perpetrator had been an intruder, if the perp didn't stop when the guy said no, if the perp threatened to fire him or have him lose his apartment, if there was physical violence involved, if the perp had a pattern of getting guys to stay over and molesting them... those types of things would make me think jail. I think there is a huge difference between what happen to this guy and forced rape and they should not be treated the same.

I can't really answer your question as far as number of times but if this guy in the article had been put on probation and did it again then I would say jail. What the guy did was wrong and I'm not trying to minimize it but based on what was reported 6 years is crazy.

[bocker3]

I never thought of that as a sexual assault and the idea of contacting the police about it seems ridiculous. After the initial ick factor I was over it. I don't know about legality but as far as I'm concerned there needs to be some kind of coercion or pattern of behavior to warrant going to jail for sexual assault. If the victim had been drugged or restrained, if the perpetrator had been an intruder, if the perp didn't stop when the guy said no, if the perp threatened to fire him or have him lose his apartment, if there was physical violence involved, if the perp had a pattern of getting guys to stay over and molesting them... those types of things would make me think jail. I think there is a huge difference between what happen to this guy and forced rape and they should not be treated the same.

I can't really answer your question as far as number of times but if this guy in the article had been put on probation and did it again then I would say jail. What the guy did was wrong and I'm not trying to minimize it but based on what was reported 6 years is crazy.

So -- if this scenario had happened with a female victim, would you feel differently?  Would others who don't see the problem here -- who find it as only "technically" a rape (I'm not sure what that means anyway)?  Male on male rape is very often not taken seriously and both the blog and some of the reactions here seem to show it.  What is saddest, is that it is even the victims who minimize and rationalize away the event -- I did it myself for years.  Rape is rape, regardless of the sex of either party.

In both the article and your example, someone took sexual liberties without the other person's permission.  Taking advantage of someone when they are sleeping, or passed out, or forcibly doing it are pretty much the same thing - I mean he didn't accidentally trip and fall on the man's dick.  So, I don't see how we need a second offense to send him to jail.  It is a crime, plain and simple.  Now, is 6 yrs too harsh a term for the given situation, perhaps -- but, as I've said before, the article doesn't give the whole picture perhaps there are some mitigating factors -- perhaps.

I find such cavalier attitudes to assault of any kind sort of disturbing.

Mike

[GSOgymrat]

So -- if this scenario had happened with a female victim, would you feel differently? 

No.

Taking advantage of someone when they are sleeping, or passed out, or forcibly doing it are pretty much the same thing - I mean he didn't accidentally trip and fall on the man's dick.  So, I don't see how we need a second offense to send him to jail.  It is a crime, plain and simple.

I don't think touching someone's genitals while they are sleeping and forcibly sodomizing someone are the same thing. They are both crimes but of different degrees and should have different punishments.

[fearless]

I agree with Ford.

Actually, I probably go a little further in that I don't see how what he did was even rape. Where was the force, threat of force or coercion?
In fact, in my book he did the right thing in that once his advance was rejected, he stopped. It may have been an unwarranted to advance, but imho to call it a rape is stretching things.

[Oceanbeach]

Somehow, the 6 years for a blowjob story really sparks my interest...   A very old and very close friend had a similar story.  he passed so I want to tell his story.

My friend was in a loving relationship with the most prefect girl in town.  He worked in the mill, had long hair, drove an old truck.  He would be what the Mendocino County man was in the early marijuana gold years, the perfect hippy who fished, hiked, hunted and could easily prepare a gourmet meal in a camp fire 3 days in the woods.  They had a perfect life and at Christmas her family came to visit with gifts.

I probably didn't tell you but my friend liked younger guys  He liked guys who were the age he was when he became gay.  His girlfriend had a cousin  

In the middle of the night on Christmas Eve, my friend gets out of bed to visit the boy on the couch, who was not gay and woke up everyone in the house.  The girlfriend and her family packed everything and left that night.    Have the best day
Michael

[bocker3]

I agree with Ford.

Actually, I probably go a little further in that I don't see how what he did was even rape. Where was the force, threat of force or coercion?
In fact, in my book he did the right thing in that once his advance was rejected, he stopped. It may have been an unwarranted to advance, but imho to call it a rape is stretching things.

The law says it is rape -- sexual activity that is not invited is rape.  Blowing someone who is sleeping means there was no invitation.  It is rape.  That is not my opinion, it is a fact.  It is like stealing -- you are taking something that isn't yours to take.  if you get caught in the act and willingly put it back, you are still guilty of theft.

Perhaps less time in jail was warranted, I don't know all the facts.  But it was, legally, a rape.

[bocker3]

oh yeah -- one more thing -- there WAS penetration-- the perp penetrated his own mouth with the man's dick.
These arguments sound very Clintonesque, I must say.

Mike

[GSOgymrat]

The law says it is rape -- sexual activity that is not invited is rape.  Blowing someone who is sleeping means there was no invitation.  It is rape.  That is not my opinion, it is a fact. 

By that definition I'm a rape victim.

[Winiroo]

It was certainly a sexual assault.

[Oceanbeach]

When released from the HIV/AIDS Section of St. Mary's, I really didn't have a place to go and the hospital was considering keeping me longer. 

A friend owned an empty apartment close to the hospital and services.  He let me move in for very low rent.  He also moved in a street person who he had found living in a car by the beach.  This person abused me with much physical violence.  The attacks were usually on the night my disability check was deposited in my account.  Many started during sleep.

One night he decided to have a blow job after busting up my face with fists.  My face was already fucked from the hitting so, I bit down real hard and would not let that cock out of my teeth...  I bit down really hard and punched some balls.

The moral of the story...

I can go anywhere in L.A. and get a brand new set of teeth, but if you can find a store to buy a cock, without the dumb mother-fucker attached, there will be a long line to get served.    Have the best day
Michael

[Winiroo]

LOL Michael good for you. Serves him right.

[Oceanbeach]

Thanks Wendy,

That year really sucked    Have the best day
Michael

[aztecan]

I think we have lost sight of the crux of the discussion here, which is the dichotomy between the sentencings of these two cases.

To sentence a guy to six years for an unsolicited blow job while sentencing someone who caused someone's death to three years, albeit inadvertently, smacks of homophobia to me.

Would a woman who gave the unwilling 22-year-old an unwanted blowjob be treated as harshly? I have my doubts charges would have even been filed. But we must teach queers a lesson.

But we have a straight guy who busts a gay man in the chops and, when the victim falls, he hits his head on the sidewalk causing fatal injuries. The perp gets only three years because his lawyer convinces the judge he can be rehabilitated and he might be exposed to "things he has never seen before" in prison.

Yeah, right. This is the same poor soul who laughed and gloated in the telephone call to the female friend of the deceased.

This isn't a discussion about whether the blow job guy committed a crime. Frankly, that is a moot point because he has been convicted in the jurisdiction where he lives.

This is a discussion about the lame excuse for justice we have in this nation.

HUGS,

Mark

[bocker3]

Mark,

Everything you say is correct.  Killing someone certainly deserves a longer term - this wasn't an accident -- he intended to inflict harm, maybe not death, but harm none the less, so they definitely got this one wrong.

What I was commenting on was the fairly cavalier attitude others were taking to the subject of sexual assault.  Something that is often minimized when men are the victims -- by the victim as well as others.  While I agree that it digressed from the crux of the post, these sort of things need to be called out when they happen.  There are likely a number of men on these forums who need to hear that NOT everyone would trivialize their sexual assaults if they brought it up.  Holding shit like that in can cause lots of pain and much destructive behavior and constantly hearing it belittled is too much to deal with -- I know from experience.  We should all be supporting victims of rape not shoving them deeper into a closet.

Mike

[Winiroo]

While driving to work this morning the radio talk show was oddly enough discussing sex offenders and murders. That made me think more about this thread and our discussions.

I think the vast majority of us will agree that a person that takes someone elses life should do more time than the sexual assault described above. For me it appears as if the person who punched the gay man well enough to cause his death got off lightly. I just hope his ordered anger management classes and drug counseling help him so that he does not reoffend.
Maybe he should be ordered to community service involving the gay community also and some class involving, I don't know, something to do with treating homosexuals better.

You have to register as a sex offender but you don't have to register as a murderer. I wonder how many of our neighbors have killed someone and are out of jail now.

I also wondered if the sex offender where a woman or a child would offense feel different. I know someone has suggested if the victim where a female already but no one has suggested if the victim where a child.
I know I'm going off on too many what if's but my mind is going a million miles an hour this morning.

Sorry...

[Peter Staley]

Great discussion, but why isn't it happening in my blog post?  My lonely blog!!

Instead, a right-wing wacko that we banned from these forums is posting there with off-topic drivel.

 


I know, I know..  I deserve this for posting this thread in the forums plugging the entry.  Carry on!

 

[Oceanbeach]

I think the vast majority of us will agree that a person that takes someone elses life should do more time than the sexual assault described above. For me it appears as if the person who punched the gay man well enough to cause his death got off lightly. I just hope his ordered anger management classes and drug counseling help him so that he does not reoffend.
Maybe he should be ordered to community service involving the gay community also and some class involving, I don't know, something to do with treating homosexuals better.

Wendy Mon Dear,

This particular "what if" is an intriguing thought.  Community Service involving the gay community could be a very eye opening awareness for the offender but where could such a person provide such community service without being a threat to the gay community he is serving?

As an openly gay man with AIDS, I personally wouldn't want him to serve me in any way, without security.  If he and others were put in a pilot program to test the benefits, the cost of security would further impact the ASO to provide services to client/patients.

Then, like a lightning bolt... It hit me...

I spent a night or two in the drunk tank in large cities and they have a separate jail for gay men.  At breakfast they have a prizoner cart the food trays to the cells.  Our offender could have 20 years of community service serving breakfast at the gay drunk tank.  Yeah, I spent the night in the Long Beach jail for drunk in public once... we had a TV and  a pay phone and when I'm singin country songs, I don't have to work so hard to make people believe I been in jail    Have the best day
Michael

[GSOgymrat]

I had no idea they had segregated jails for gay men. Is this everywhere or just California?

[Oceanbeach]

I had no idea they had segregated jails for gay men. Is this everywhere or just California?

They really only did it to me once in Long Beach, (the 5th largest city in Calif).  I was charged with being drunk in public and during the booking, I was asked if I was gay?  I refused to answer that question because as I stated, I may wish to run for public office some day and I do not want my sexual orientation on my record.  They went ahead and put me in the gay cells.  My friends who were a couple were arrested together and they slept together in the little jail bunk.

Somewhere in my life, I do remember being in a cell that was padded with very thick rubber on floor and walls.  I remember what I was wearing at the time of arrest and someone telling me about the chances of being raped in the city jail and I do not remember the city or the charges.   They may have put me in the padded cell because it was empty.     Have the best day
Michael

[Winiroo]

Thank you for working it all out for me Michael LOL
I didn't know they had sexually segregated jailing either.

Never been. Aside from visiting and the one time I went to work with my Dad.
<<< cops daughter...

[CaptCarl]

Mark,
   Thanks for getting this back on track. The imbalance of justice is appalling, but hardly surprising really. I once dated a guy when I lived behind The Zion Curtain (Utah) Who had spent six years in prison for giving a BJ to a 17 year old. The kid in question was into it, but daddy was a big player in the LDS Church, so rather than admitting his son was a homo, the guy who blew him went to prison for rape.

These arguments sound very Clintonesque, I must say.

   Jack, my dear, if you wish to remain incognito, you should change your syntax a bit. Oh yeah, bringing Clinton into this thread is a dead giveaway too. You can't hide from MtD for long...
   With Love, CaptCarl

[bocker3]

   Jack, my dear, if you wish to remain incognito, you should change your syntax a bit. Oh yeah, bringing Clinton into this thread is a dead giveaway too. You can't hide from MtD for long...
   With Love, CaptCarl

Capt Carl,

Calling me Jack is a pretty low blow -- I'm seriously offended.  I was and am a big Clinton supporter (both of them) -- but his dancing around the definition of sex was a bit painful to watch and was what I was referring to in this post.
So, I'll be waiting for an apology.

Mike

[Dachshund]

Capt Carl,

Calling me Jack is a pretty low blow -- I'm seriously offended.  I was and am a big Clinton supporter (both of them) -- but his dancing around the definition of sex was a bit painful to watch and was what I was referring to in this post.
So, I'll be waiting for an apology.

Mike

Chill dude. I think Carl was thinking with the mention of Clinton that Jack had returned as a sock puppet and was calling him out. You're bordering on drama queen girl.

[bocker3]

You're bordering on drama queen girl.

Now that doesn't offend me......   

[CaptCarl]

Bocker,
   Sorry 'bout that. It wasn't mean to get you upset. It just reminded me of Old Jack, and how he would always mention Clinton without fail, no matter what the subject was actually about. Combine that with this:

Instead, a right-wing wacko that we banned from these forums is posting there with off-topic drivel.

 

  Maybe it can be understood where I was coming from. It truly was not meant to get you riled up. Again, I am most sorry

CaptCarl

[fearless]

Mark,

Everything you say is correct.  Killing someone certainly deserves a longer term - this wasn't an accident -- he intended to inflict harm, maybe not death, but harm none the less, so they definitely got this one wrong.

What I was commenting on was the fairly cavalier attitude others were taking to the subject of sexual assault.  Something that is often minimized when men are the victims -- by the victim as well as others.  While I agree that it digressed from the crux of the post, these sort of things need to be called out when they happen.  There are likely a number of men on these forums who need to hear that NOT everyone would trivialize their sexual assaults if they brought it up.  Holding shit like that in can cause lots of pain and much destructive behavior and constantly hearing it belittled is too much to deal with -- I know from experience.  We should all be supporting victims of rape not shoving them deeper into a closet.

Mike

Mike,

I am in no way trying to trivialise what happened to you. I was, however, trying to trivialise what happened in that particular case. I know the law is against me on this, but I just don't see how the punishment fits the alleged crime in this case. Yes, it was an unwanted sexual advance which appears to have stopped when the guy said no. Personally, I think the guy should just get over himself. What trauma did he really suffer?

After I was raped I was traumatised for a long time, no only from the rape but from the police reaction. See, I was returning home from my boyfriends house and was literally run down and knocked semi unconscious by a guy with a knuckle duster on. He then dragged me into a toilet block and violently raped me. The police reaction, "serves you right for being in that park after dark faggot."

Just my two bobs worth.

[Winiroo]

Personally, I think the guy should just get over himself. What trauma did he really suffer?

That just doesnt sound very nice. I know what happened to you was more violet but still.
You cant gauge how traumatic an uninvited sexual experience was for someone else and how well the person will deal with what happened to them.
I dont think I would deal well if I where taken atvantage of in that way. I certainly would want the person who did it to be punished.

[fearless]

I know Winni.

My reaction is clearly more a response to what happened to me as opposed to what happened to him. But it is how I've had to deal with it, I guess. That is, to just get on with my life - for exactly the reasons bocker has said - trivialised, not believed etc etc

[bocker3]

Hey Fearless,

First -- I'm sorry about your attack -- you seem to have found a way to move on -- that is great.
I absolutely agree that there is no comparison between your situation and this story.  In fact, if the story was exactly as described, I agree that 6 yrs is way too much.  The big problem is that I don't think we have the whole story.  Maybe the guy pressed charges out of homophobia (an angle that Peter brings up in a comment on the blog -- one which I had not considered -- apparently I assume everyone is gay  ).  There also could be some history to the perp that does warrant 6 yrs -- I have NO IDEA.  All I was trying to do is to make a point about the danger of and the damage caused by trivializing male rape victims.  I think I"ve done that and so will bring my soapbox in now.  Hopefully, I've opened some eyes.

CaptCarl,
I was only joking (well, mostly) -- I figured you were either joking or seriously thought "he" was back, in disguise.  Dear ol' Dachshund did set me straight (so to speak).  No harm done.......

Mike

[YaKaMein]

Well, addressing what Peter started, these cases sure do smack of inequity. The sentence given for the pleading where a death was caused pales in comparison to the one of admission sexual assault.  One can hardly argue anything else, without  provoking a smirk. If one thinks that justice was served when comparing these sentences, one is mistaken. We don't need to know all the details for either case to surmise that homophobia played a part in meting out punishments that did not fit the crimes. The posts here seemed to agree that some punishment was warranted for each offense, just not what was given.

As the threads began exploring male/male rape or even broadened sexual assault, obviously, I wanted to see the paths before I participated. It's no secret here that I'm wrestling with my own rape experience. So I'm a bit sensitive to the subject anywhere it comes up. What I can say is that the forum has been supportive to me and I've not sensed the matter was trivialized or minimized.  Fortunately, Peter's post about his blog raises the opportunity [that I welcome] to discuss some aspects of male rape victimization and survival.

-YaKaMein