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I have to say I am stunned at the amount of disclosure questions. I get the hard part of it when it comes to dating and when and how to tell. What I don't get is why is there even a question about disclosing before you have sex. We all have a moral responsibility to tell any and all sexual partners. I got a lot of shit from people about being all high and mighty about the subject. We all ( for the most part) are here because someone didn't disclose to us. Do you really want to do this to some one else all in the sake of getting some. If you answered yes, well you have no morals and you make the rest of us look like monsters.
Bottom line folks, it is your responsibility to tell. You dont want to, well tuff shit. Do the right thing. The world will be a better place because you did. My mom always says god doesn't like ugly. I couldn't agree more with her.
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We all ( for the most part) are here because someone didn't disclose to us.
Uh, no -- you obviously don't get it. We got here because we failed to use a condom. Someone telling you when you're negative that they're positive (or negative) achieves zilch in the absence of a condom during sex. And if you don't get that then, well tuff shit. My mom always says god doesn't like dumb. I couldn't agree more with her.
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I rarely take anyone seriously who throws around judgements around the "morals" of others. It is a word that is entirely to subjective to use "against" anyone but yourself -- follow your morals and don't worry so much about others.
While I, personally, believe that I would always disclose (I say "believe" because I haven't a crystal ball and am human, so who knows) -- who made you the judge and jury of other's actions? Some would say you have no morals for having sex with condoms when you caught the virus -- I mean, you could have given someone the clap!
And, as Miss (or Ms, or Mrs -- I can't keep up) P stated -- no one "gave" you HIV, you accepted it when you let a condomless cock up your butt.
M
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I got my HIV from my ex husband. And that was after we both went and got tested twice. Then he decided to be a fuckin dick and cheat and lie and didn't share his adventures till it was to late. Thats how I got infected.
What gives me the right to share my view. Well hmmmm it's a public forum and every one here gives their opion. I am tired already of the secrets that just keep stigma alive and that I have to deal with because of the actions of others. You honestly believe it's ok to sleep with some one when you know your positive. You are dead wrong. To purposely do this to another (I said purposely, meaning you know and don't care) you should be prosecuted. I am fucking tired of hearing on the news and reading in papers and ect. About HIV positive people that go out and due this. We have the power to stop this by just saying I'm HIV positive.
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You honestly believe it's ok to sleep with some one when you know your positive. You are dead wrong. We have the power to stop this by just saying I'm HIV positive.
So, how is the weather up there - I say up there because to say someone is "dead wrong" is giving you the ultimate authority over such matters - a very high position, if I may say so myself. Now, if you want to say it is your OPINION that someone is wrong to do so, then that is another story, but to just declare someone as wrong is a very arrogant statement to make.
Long story short..... it is not about US having the power to stop this. If someone is mature enough to get butt ass naked with someone else in bed (or wherever) then they need to have the responsibility to make the ADULT decision to either insist on a condom or not... if they choose not to insist, then it is that person's own fault (it is called personal responsibility) if they get HIV, Hepatitis, Syphilis, etc, etc. It is not the other person's responsibility to tell the person that they have HIV, Hep, or Syph....... Now, if they choose to do so, then fine, but to say that the other party has no responsibility when it is THEIR body that is going to be affected, just doesn't jive with me...
Talk about perpetuating a stigma ---- it is actually opinions such as yours --- opinions that make it the infected person's responsibility to tell the non-infected person and remove all responsibility from the non-infected person that perpetuate more stigma than you can even fathom....
And that....... is my opinion.
So, disclosure, blah, blah, blah..... but if someone is not infected and wants to stay that way...... then either don't have sex or use/insist on the other person using a condom..... It really is that simple.
-Phil (who is tired of people wanting others to take responsibility for something that they need to own up to --- that is if they claim to be an adult).
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Of course it's everyone else's responsiblity. Cop out answer
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Of course it's everyone else's responsiblity. Cop out answer
Whatever man - and your answer that it is not the other person's responsibility at all is just as much if not more of a cop out answer...
If a person if going to crawl into bed with another person - and if that person is at all worried that they might be putting themself at risk - then they would use or insist on the other party using a condom. That simple.
Relying on another person to disclose is utopian -- and conveniently removes any accountability for responsible behavior from the non-infected person.
If that isn't a "cop out" on the other party's part, then I don't know what is...
But, your entitled to your opinion - and entitled to express it -- but, doesn't mean that I have to agree with it.....
and until such time as I see your name on the bottom of my paychecks or find out that you are indeed the second coming of Christ, then I shall not bow down to your opinion, not out of lack of respect, but because responsible people know how to think for themselves. Took me a while to figure that one out - had I done it about 3 or so years ago, I might be a member of the Non-pos crew.... but, I choose to be okay with no condom so here I sit...... I never felt like it was the other person's responsibility to tell me, as I have a mouth and a voice and it was MY responsibility to use condoms, since it is my body, if I didn't want to end up in this spot.
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I choose not to fuck over my sexual partners and choose honesty. I own this and hope others do the same. It's easy to hide behind fake photos and post things anonymously. It's another to own it and help make change and end stigma
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I choose not to fuck over my sexual partners and choose honesty. I own this and hope others do the same. It's easy to hide behind fake photos and post things anonymously. It's another to own it and help make change and end stigma
I hope your shot at the "fake photos" isn't directed toward me - I am out about my status - at work, with family, with friends, etc. (can you say the same? hopefully so) -- I have also participated OPENLY in AIDS activism events..... my status is out there - nothing to hide here --- stigma does not come from not disclosing to a sex party - stigma may come from not disclosing outside the bedroom. Studies have actually shown that stigma increases by fully putting disclosure responsibility on the person with HIV and removing ALL responsibility from the non-poz partner.
It is comparable to saying that it is another person's responsibility to wake me up for work ---- NO, IT IS MINE. It is another person's responsibility to drive safe and the passenger has NO responsibility to WEAR A SEATBELT.
Oh, and to show you that disclosure laws actual cause harm and undermine HIV Prevention messages - by making non-positive people think they have NO RESPONSIBILITY in protecting themselves here is some reading/research for you (of course, given your mindset - you probably won't read it.... cause see, therein lies the problem, most people with opinions such as yours don't feel it is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to educate THEMSELVES --- instead they want to rely on others... Just like they want to RELY on the positive person to disclose, rather than OWN THEIR RESPONSIBILITY for SAFE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR if they want to remain negative - in case you really don't want to read and digest everything below, I put the main idea of the research findings in BOLD.
from The Journal of Law, Medicine & Ethics, Summer 2004, "Toward Rational Criminal HIV Exposure Laws" by Carol L. Galletly, and Steven D. Pinkerton.
Unprotected anal intercourse is the riskiest sexual activity. The probability of HIV being transmitted from an HIV-infected man to his uninfected partner through a single act of unprotected anal intercourse is approximately 1 in 50 if the infected man is the insertive partner and 1 in 2000 if he is the receptive partner. The risks associated with unprotected vaginal intercourse are relatively small as well: approximately 1 in 1000 for male-to-female transmission and 1 in 2000 for female-to-male transmission. Less is known about the probability of HIV transmission through oral sex. Although there have been a small number of cases in which HIV reportedly was transmitted through cunnilingus, analingus, or being the insertive partner in fellatio, the risk associated with these activities is generally (though not universally) considered to be negligible. In contrast, while the risk to the receptive ("giving") partner in fellatio is less than the risk associated with anal or vaginal intercourse, it is not negligible. One study estimated the per-act risk to the partner performing fellatio to be 1 in 2500. Co-factors that can increase the likelihood that HIV would be transmitted by these activities include gum disease, infection of the mouth or throat by a sexually transmitted infection (STI), or other lesions in the oral cavity.
When used correctly and consistently, latex condoms reduce the likelihood of HIV transmission by as much as 90% or more.13 Stated another way, condoms reduce the probability of HIV transmission by about a factor of 10. For example, the probability of an infected man transmitting the virus to his partner during a single act of condom-protected anal intercourse is 1 in 500 if the infected man is the insertive partner and 1 in 20,000 if he is the receptive partner.
These transmission estimates assume that the partners engage in the specified sexual activity only once. Multiple sex acts increase the probability of transmission in an approximately linear fashion. For example, engaging in the same activity twice approximately doubles the risk of transmission.
It is important to note that there is considerable uncertainty surrounding the transmission probabilities cited above. These difficult-to-estimate probabilities represent averages over groups of people and neglect potential interpersonal and intrapersonal variability in infectiousness and susceptibility to HIV infection. A number of factors play a role in whether a person will become HIV infected after exposure to the virus, including the strength of the exposed person's immune system, the infected person's stage of HIV disease and, in particular, the quantity of virus in his or her genital fluids, and whether or not the infected person is receiving effective antiretroviral treatment, which decreases viral load. The presence of transmission-facilitating factors in either partner, such as genital or anal lesions or other disrupted tissue, or infection with a sexually-transmitted pathogen other than HIV also plays a role in determining whether a person who is HIV-exposed will become HIV-infected. These uncertainties preclude pinpointing the exact risk associated with a particular sexual activity. Nevertheless, it is clear that a hierarchy of risks exists and, moreover, that these risks are generally small.
One way to depict these generalized estimates of risk is to categorize sexual activities according to one of three levels of risk (e.g., lowest risk, medium risk, and highest risk.) Sexual activities that pose the lowest risk of HIV transmission include masturbation of a partner and receiving cunnilingus or fellatio. Sexual activities that occupy the mid-range of risk for HIV transmission include insertive anal and vaginal intercourse, and giving fellatio. Sexual activities that pose the highest risk of HIV transmission include receptive anal and vaginal intercourse.
So what messages do these laws send? First, they ignore the protective potential of condoms. from Gallety and Pinkerton again:
Finally, sensible and meaningful HIV exposure law is based on conscious choices about actual risk and criminal intention. Efforts to reduce the risk of HIV transmission through condom use or through the practice of less risky sexual activities impact of these central factors. Both condom use and the practice of less risky behaviors such as mutual masturbation dramatically reduce the likelihood of HIV transmission and provide substantial evidence that an individual is not deliberately attempting to infect a partner. The lack of consideration given to risk reduction measures in the majority of criminal HIV exposure statutes is a striking omission.[...]
condom use or the practice of alternative sexual behaviors reduces risk sufficiently to be considered a mitigating factor or a defense to criminal prosecution for exposure, omitting discussion of condom use entirely runs counter to prevailing public health messages which stress practicing safer sex with all partners until they are sure of their own and their partners' serostatus. To whatever extent possible, HIV exposure laws and public health recommendations should avoid sending mixed messages to HIV-infected persons (and to persons at risk of HIV infection) regarding what is or is not risky, and what is or is not prosecutable behavior.
In another study by Professor Carol Galletly and Professor Steven Pinkerton from the Center for AIDS Intervention Research, at the Medical College of Wisconsin's Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Medicine found:
Public health interventions aimed at preventing HIV transmission emerged as formidable, though not infallible, forces with which to contain the US epidemic. Unfortunately, one of the nation's most broad-reaching, and some might argue, potentially most powerful tools with which to disseminate and reinforce this public health response, the criminal law, promulgated a message of a different kind.
The two researchers conclude "existing HIV serostatus disclosure laws not only fail to complement public health prevention efforts to promote condom use, they appear to undermine them."
Moreover, the disclosure-based norm endorsed by these laws encourages at-risk persons to rely on prospective sex partners to disclose their HIV status, if positive, and to assume that there is minimal risk absent positive serostatus disclosure. Serostatus disclosure laws thus may foster a false sense of security among HIV-negative persons who may choose to forgo condom use unless notified of their partners' HIV-positive status.
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PozJeepGuy,
3 Important Things to bear in mind:-
1. Most of us (read as in overwhelming vast majority) acquired our infection from someone who didn't know they were infected and passed it on unwittingly.
2. Condoms (if used correctly) are 100% effective and scientifically proven to stop onward transmission.
3. After someone learns their HIV status, the overwhelming vast majority would take full and thorough measures and precautions to ensure that onward transmission does not take place. And don't forget, HIV poz people are much better informed about tansmission risks (undetectable vl, condom use etc etc) and act responsibly.
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Wait a second girls!
Just let me sit back and crack open a beer......
Ok I'm ready now, let the Blood Sports begin!!
GROWLER (Whose already bored with this shit)
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Links to full articles/citations are below the excerpts - from Phil - who hopes that Growler has at least a six pack of beer ready to go ;D
And who also believes that research and rationale should form the basis of action and generates thought --- otherwise, opinions are worthless.
Why Should HIV Nondisclosure Laws Be Overturned?
• HIV criminalization laws do nothing to reduce the rate of new HIV infections.
• Such laws undermine HIV-prevention efforts by deterring people from being tested. ("Hey, if I don't get tested and don't know my status, I can't be charged or prosecuted.")
• They increase fear and stigma surrounding HIVers.
• They result in punishment (often severe) under circumstances that are not blameworthy and where no harm (and in some cases even potential harm) was done.
• Such laws are often applied unfairly and at best inconsistently.
• There are laws already on the books that can be used to prosecute the extremely rare cases where someone transmits HIV with the intent to do harm.
Criminalization places the responsibility for preventing HIV transmission disproportionately on HIVers.
http://hero9999.posterous.com/a-different-perspective-on-privacy-vs-legally
and
Some research and public health interventions have focused on encouraging HIVseropositive individuals to reveal their serostatus to their partners, predicated upon the assumption that disclosure will increase the safety of subsequent sexual activity with informed partners. This review examines the empirical literature on disclosure of HIV serostatus and subsequent sexual risk behaviors of HIV-infected individuals. Only 15 of the 23 studies reviewed provided data that allowed us to examine the association between disclosure and safer sex. Fewer still provided a methodologically sound analysis, and those that did provided conflicting results, often with significant effects limited to only 1 subgroup of participants. However, this failure to demonstrate a consistent association does not necessarily mean that disclosure is irrelevant to the practice of safer sex. The limitations of the research to date and implications for policy and practice are discussed.
http://www.iasusa.org/pub/topics/2004/issue4/109.pdf
and
Ontario Working Group on Criminal Law and HIV Exposure (CLHE)
POSITION PAPER ON THE CRIMINALIZATION OF HIV NON-DISCLOSURE
Position Statement
The criminal law is an ineffective and inappropriate tool with which to address HIV exposure. HIV/AIDS is an individual and public health issue first and foremost, and should be addressed as such. All legal and policy responses to HIV/AIDS should be based on the best available evidence, the objectives of HIV prevention, care, treatment and support, and respect for human rights.
Rationale
The increasing number of criminal charges that are being laid each year in Canada, and in particular in Ontario, in cases of non-disclosure of HIV-positive status have raised alarm bells amongst people living with HIV (PHAs) as well as organizations working with and advocating for the rights of PHAs and others affected by HIV/AIDS. There is little, if any, evidence to suggest that criminal prosecutions for non-disclosure of HIV-positive status will offer any significant benefits in terms of HIV prevention. On the other hand, there is strong reason to believe that these criminal prosecutions could have negative effects, including hindering HIV testing and access to services, spreading misinformation about HIV, increasing stigma and discrimination associated with HIV, and invasions of privacy.
The Ontario Working Group on Criminal Law and HIV Exposure has come together to oppose the expansive use of the criminal law with respect to issues of HIV exposure. We support a comprehensive evaluation of how Canada’s criminal law is being applied within Ontario with respect to HIV-related issues. We advocate for sound policy responses to HIV prevention and transmission based on the best available evidence, the objectives of HIV prevention, care, treatment and support, and respect for the human rights of all.
http://www.cdnaids.ca/ontarioworkinggrouponcriminallawand
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Wait a second girls!
Just let me sit back and crack open a beer......
Oh wait honey child -- should I go grab one? ::runs to fridge:: OK, I now am having one of these (http://weyerbacher.com/blog/2010/02/fireside-ale/) and I know for damn sure it's not available where you live!
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First that was not a crack at you in anyway,shape, or form. Condoms are not 100% effective all the time. Condoms can rip or could have a manufacture defect. I personally believe we are responsible to disclose with sexual partners.
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I'm confused. I thought this was about your cheating ex-husband and being a victim. Now it's about condoms? ::)
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Well what do you do when you buy a guy condoms and lube to wear and he chooses not to and he proceeds to say that he has a desire to cum in you and when you push him off and he forces it in anyway and keeps threatening you with it until finally have to get him off of you and plead with him to use a condom?
You don't know that the guy is going to be around tomorrow or not.
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First that was not a crack at you in anyway,shape, or form. Condoms are not 100% effective all the time. Condoms can rip or could have a manufacture defect. I personally believe we are responsible to disclose with sexual partners.
And that's fine that you have that belief -- I think that there are a good many people on here who share that belief. And, even if I share that belief with you, it still does not remove the responsibility from the other person from either practicing safe sex or understanding that when one has sex then they are taking the chance that they may be exposed to HIV or Hep, Syph, etc.... But, solely relying on trusting someone to reveal their status is foolhardy at best --- the best protection is personal responsibility. It would be like me relying on someone to pay my bills or to wash my clothes or wake me up for work--- if I want to be sure all three of those get done, then I better do them myself..... that is personal responsibility.
That is not to say that I don't feel that one should disclose.... but that is to say that it is just as much the other person's responsibility as it is mine..... simply said.
Ok, Ms P and Growler - you can put the beers away --- I'm going to bed (alone) --- although, I do feel that I may have to disclose my status to my hand before I go to bed.... It is the right thing to do ;)
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Miss whatever. Nice. Typical queen.
Secondly I would go out fighting with every breath in my body. No one will ever hold me down and force me. I would stab someone threw the heart in that case. Self denfense.
Then I could ask what if a alien came in the middle of the night.
All you have to do is disclose with sexual partners. I am floored at the resistants of this. Just don't be a lier.
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First that was not a crack at you in anyway,shape, or form. Condoms are not 100% effective all the time. Condoms can rip or could have a manufacture defect. I personally believe we are responsible to disclose with sexual partners.
Even thought I practice this 99.9% of the time... at what point does personal responsibility come into play? I don't know the other person's sexual history. I assumed if they are adamant about having unprotected sex then they must be like like me. This HIV stuff is so complicated. I get a head ache thinking about it. Sometimes I just want to end it all.
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So why didn't you just use a condom with your ex-husband? Every homo knows they all cheat. This ain't rocket science here.
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Miss whatever. Nice. Typical queen.
Secondly I would go out fighting with every breath in my body. No one will ever hold me down and force me. I would stab someone threw the heart in that case. Self denfense.
Then I could ask what if a alien came in the middle of the night.
All you have to do is disclose with sexual partners. I am floored at the resistants of this. Just don't be a lier.
Who said anything about lying? How can you lie about something you've never been asked? Because someone says I have to disclose my sexual history means I should do it when I dont' even know the person. Eeek! I don't think so. More importantly what are they going to do with that information? I tell people personal medical information that I trust. Just because I sleep with someone doesn't mean I trust them with my bank accounts and personal medical information.
Not disclosing is not lying. Lying about your HIV status is lying.
Why dumb down the discussion with the alien talk? You think everyone should believe your cockamania story about your cheating boyfriend when you are refusing to believe someone else who is revealing personal information to you.
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I'm a fag and I don't cheat. Not every gay man is a cheater. I was a fuckin stupid not to use a condom. I thought my husband loved me and respected me but I learned the hard way. Yes my own fault.
Just disclose to your sexual partners. Once they make their choice it's done. I will be the first one lined up to say yes to HIV crimes being proscuted. If your honest and up front and have nothing to hide then what's the problem.
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GROWLER (Whose already bored with this shit)
Gurl, I just got here and this party SUCKS. Total YAWNFEST. Pinch me!!
Oh, and how interesting that the OP has chosen to ignore the very valid points made by Spacebar.
Many of us are here cause we chose to ride a cock without protection. The person who gave it to me had tested negative just a month or so before our bareback rendezvous. It was not his fault; it was MINE for assuming that we were invulnerable, for ignoring all my previous experience and knowledge.
G_d. I FUCKING detest victim mentalities and high horses.
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I'm a fag and I don't cheat. Not every gay man is a cheater. I was a fuckin stupid not to use a condom. I thought my husband loved me and respected me but I learned the hard way. Yes my own fault.
So then there was no reason to bring it up in the first place in this thread. I guess you were expecting us to feel sorry for you, or what exactly? Basically you proved my point that you have HIV because you didn't use a condom.
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Oh wait honey child -- should I go grab one? ::runs to fridge:: OK, I now am having one of these (http://weyerbacher.com/blog/2010/02/fireside-ale/) and I know for damn sure it's not available where you live!
Sweetie.....Boutique or domestic, it makes no difference. Trust me, when you shake the bottle and shove it up your arse, the effect is just the same ;)
GROWLER
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I'm a fag and I don't cheat. Not every gay man is a cheater. I was a fuckin stupid not to use a condom. I thought my husband loved me and respected me but I learned the hard way. Yes my own fault.
Just disclose to your sexual partners. Once they make their choice it's done. I will be the first one lined up to say yes to HIV crimes being proscuted. If your honest and up front and have nothing to hide then what's the problem.
If your man is sleeping with you without a condom he doesn't respect you. Chances are he probably didn't even know his status. I support criminalization when there is intent to infect....but even that is suspect because what's happened is every HIV disclosure issue becomes intent to infect in a he said she said case where a disgruntled X lover accuses the other lover of not disclosing. Everyone knows the dangers of not wearing a condom at this point. It's not the early days of HIV anymore. When someone elects not to use the condom that is an acceptance of the risk in my mind.
However, would I tell everyone I plan to have sex with as a general rule? Yes.
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Sweetie.....Boutique or domestic, it makes no difference. Trust me, when you shake the bottle and shove it up your arse, the effect is just the same ;)
GROWLER
Did she disclose her status before you stuck it up your nether regions? Or is she another immoral, irresponsible, criminal, evil-doer who spreads disease without any regard to your innocence?
I will be the first one lined up to say yes to HIV crimes being proscuted.
Many times the worst enemies for any minority (in our case the pozzie ghetto) can be found within the community. Disgusting and quite pathetic.
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Pozjeepguy, of course people should disclose however your attitude discounts how difficult it is for people to have that conversation. If the you listened to what people post you would recognize how hard it is for some people to disclose. Threatening people with prosecution makes honest communication even more difficult, as does referring to people as monsters.
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I will be the first one lined up to say yes to HIV crimes being proscuted. If your honest and up front and have nothing to hide then what's the problem.
So then we can assume that you prosecuted your ex? Because they way I remember it you went back and had sex with him after you figured out he'd lied to you and infected you, or am I not recalling that correctly?
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So then we can assume that you prosecuted your ex? Because they way I remember it you went back and had sex with him after you figured out he'd lied to you and infected you, or am I not recalling that correctly?
Wait what happened here? Why continue sleeping with someone you yourself have said doesn't respect you?
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Did she disclose her status before you stuck it up your nether regions?
HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wash your mouth out SIR !!!!!!!
I don't fuck with girls. I might catch GIRL GERMS /////shudder////
GROWLER (Who needs another beer to settle his nerves)
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Just for the sake of discussion, who should disclose the bottom or the top in a sero discordant affair?
Bottoms seem like they are much more at risk of not just HIV but other things....
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Just for the sake of discussion, who should disclose the bottom or the top in a sero discordant affair?
Bottoms seem like they are much more at risk of not just HIV but other things....
How do you know a pairing is sero-discordant until after you have disclosed? A Ouija board?
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How do you know a pairing is sero-discordant until after you have disclosed? A Ouija board?
Good point. I usually assume everyone is positive. I've learned recently that that's a failed strategy. It's better to get that off the table ASAP. I've never topped a guy before. The very thought of it turns me off.
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I've never topped a guy before. The very thought of it turns me off.
Clutch the pearls, Mavis.
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Do what you want. I shared a opion. Let's all just go out and infect as many as we can. Why not. You have no responsibility to anyone. nice to know this is what we tell people. Real nice.
I'm learning quick this is a place for bitter people to justify their actions. I said earlier if you know, not maybe this or that but if you know you are positive you should disclose to sexual partners.
I shared things about my past and have always been up front. Thanks for taking those and trying to turn them around. No wonder we can't get married, have equal rights, actually put a end to stigma.
No wonder there are waiting list for access to care. Who cares you don't have to tell you partners. Let's see this grow and grow.
This is sad and pathetic
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This is sad and pathetic
No, it's beginning to feel a bit reductive ::)
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I say day you say night. It's a no win.
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No, it's beginning to feel a bit reductive ::)
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxr0yrTYHZ1ql5yr7o1_r2_400.gif)
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I can't wait for my next group to show this conversation. This is what you can aspect from the HIV community.
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Do what you want. I shared a opion. Let's all just go out and infect as many as we can. Why not. You have no responsibility to anyone. nice to know this is what we tell people. Real nice.
I'm learning quick this is a place for bitter people to justify their actions. I said earlier if you know, not maybe this or that but if you know you are positive you should disclose to sexual partners.
I shared things about my past and have always been up front. Thanks for taking those and trying to turn them around. No wonder we can't get married, have equal rights, actually put a end to stigma.
No wonder there are waiting list for access to care. Who cares you don't have to tell you partners. Let's see this grow and grow.
This is sad and pathetic
Who is justifying anyone's actions? I haven't heard any of that going on. In fact, it's only been you who's been trying to justify your actions. Others are agreeing with you in principle but disagreeing with your way of handling things because it isn't responsible to the sensitivities involved yet you still fail to acknowledge this.
Empirically speaking, the fact of the matter is that your way of handling things hasn't had the desired effect. No one said anything about spreading anything to anyone. You added that in simply to be hysterical because your weak argument failed to gain any traction with people who are educated.
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Do what you want. I shared a opion. Let's all just go out and infect as many as we can. Why not. You have no responsibility to anyone. nice to know this is what we tell people. Real nice.
I'm learning quick this is a place for bitter people to justify their actions. I said earlier if you know, not maybe this or that but if you know you are positive you should disclose to sexual partners.
I shared things about my past and have always been up front. Thanks for taking those and trying to turn them around. No wonder we can't get married, have equal rights, actually put a end to stigma.
No wonder there are waiting list for access to care. Who cares you don't have to tell you partners. Let's see this grow and grow.
This is sad and pathetic
You are definitely not very clever, are ya? Has anyone said at any point not to disclose? Seems like somebody needs to sharpen those reading and comprehension skills.
You are the one who is stigmatizing and twisting what's been said.
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I say day you say night. It's a no win.
The issue is, when you place all the blame on one party you're ignoring that the act was consensual between two individuals. This is why these laws are so poorly constructed. If I'm a negative person and I'm fucking anyone who tells me that they are HIV- without a condom, eventually I will happen onto a person who is HIV+ and has absolutely no idea. I would still become infected regardless of what they said. Does this make more sense?
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Lol. Of course.
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This thread has nothing to do with disclosure
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Trey that was at rev what ever. Not you
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Lol. Of course.
Go to your group and whine to them about how you aren't like the other monsters with HIV. Of course no one is going to agree with you because your point of view hasn't worked to stop the behavior of the HIV negative community or they could all agree with you and then you all could do a big circle jerk about how morally superior you are to someone who's struggling psychologically as a result of the HIV infection.
I can go to several message boards full of gay people and you can hear them going on and on about how they have unprotected sex with their lovers and why not because their lovers don't cheat. We all know can't base your health decisions on what someone else tells you or doesn't tell you or has your own experience taught you nothing? You don't know if your other half is positive or not no matter what he/she tells you. That's the point. Tell your HIV positive group that.
I agree with you that getting the HIV thing off the table early as possible is the way to go. There is no disagreement here. My disagreement is with how you characterize other people's situations that you don't even know about. Disclosure isn't a cut and dry issue as far as reality is concerned. The best thing one can do is to protect one's own self interests which is why I am advocating for getting the HIV status off the table early and often.
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No shit it's not easy. I never said it was. From the beginning I said if you are positive you should disclose to your sexual partners. What's so bad and so hard here. Instead I am met with bitchy queens bringing up things I shared and trying to be cruel. So going to group is whining. Nice.
You know some asked me the other day are you only going to date HIV positive people? I said I don't know but so far I haven't met one that isn't messed up in the head. Me included.
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No shit it's not easy. I never said it was. From the beginning I said if you are positive you should disclose to your sexual partners. What's so bad and so hard here. Instead I am met with bitchy queens bringing up things I shared and trying to be cruel. So going to group is whining. Nice.
You know some asked me the other day are you only going to date HIV positive people? I said I don't know but so far I haven't met one that isn't messed up in the head. Me included.
I haven't met one person who isn't messed up in the head. Everyone has their mental problems not just HIV people.
First you say it's not easy then 2 sentences later you say what's so hard about it? Which is it?
You go trashing people for telling you that HIV is everyone's responsibility and not just the infected parties. Then you go on a tirade about people who ask questions about disclosure that they should be asking and calling them monsters for wanting to do the right thing. You are deterring people from asking the questions that people should be asking and come to these sites to get help for. You're not helping.
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I said you are a monster if you knowling sleep with someone and you know your positive and you lie and say no. If your going to qutoe me get it right
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I have to say I am stunned at the amount of disclosure questions. I get the hard part of it when it comes to dating and when and how to tell. What I don't get is why is there even a question about disclosing before you have sex. We all have a moral responsibility to tell any and all sexual partners. I got a lot of shit from people about being all high and mighty about the subject. We all ( for the most part) are here because someone didn't disclose to us. Do you really want to do this to some one else all in the sake of getting some. If you answered yes, well you have no morals and you make the rest of us look like monsters.
Bottom line folks, it is your responsibility to tell. You dont want to, well tuff shit. Do the right thing. The world will be a better place because you did. My mom always says god doesn't like ugly. I couldn't agree more with her.
This is what you said. No one who comes here to ask disclosure questions wants to harm someone else. People do wreck-less things but that doesn't mean they intended to harm someone else.
I said you are a monster if you knowling sleep with someone and you know your positive and you lie and say no. If your going to qutoe me get it right
I quoted you above. You didn't say anything about the lying about it part. That's a HUGE difference from what you posted. You may have been thinking about the lying but it never made it to the keyboard.
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I wish that was true
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Like I said before JeepGuy, I agree with you in principle but I think your approach is wrong. That's my disagreement.
I think upfront within the first 5 minutes is probably best. Maybe the guy should know your status before your name.
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Couldn't agree more with you on that One
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I told a guy who thought he was going to pick me up off the street and literally ran the other direction like he had been infected simply by me saying hi to him.
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I am sorry that happened. A few months back I finally work up the courage to ask this guy out. I was so attracted to him. We went to a wonderful restaurant and was having a great time. When I shared I was positive the look of fear on this guys broke my heart. I felt like shit. But I was honest and up front. I feared I would loose my job, but it actually turned out for the best. I thought friends and family would turn their back. Well some did, but for the most part it has brought me closer to most. Disclosing isn't a bad thing.
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My message is pretty tough and I know that. With that said I personally believe to the core of my being sleeping with some one and not disclosing is
Wrong.
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...and SCENE.
Very interesting discussion on this thread and one we've had many times before. My view, short of rape or other forcible means, is that every able bodied adult is responsible for his/her actions and can choose to engage (and by what means) or not in the sex act.
It also appears to me that the OP's title to this thread "Disclosure blah blah blah" anticipated that there would be a whole lot of chat-chat-beat-a-ma-gums (in this case keyboard dancing) in response to his opening narrative that served as the propellant.
Agree or not, the OP gave everyone a chance to keep those brain synapses firing. Everyone gets a gold star for their observational dexterity. (File under Mental Health?)
BTW, I had a few DunkinDoughnuts and a frosty diet coke reading the transcript.
Holla!
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My problem with your take on this is not the belief that one should disclose -- it's the utter black/white of it. You have annoited yourself the disclosure police here. You are not "stating your opinion" you are making JUDGEMENTS. There is a huge difference there. You have every right to state your opinion and you have every right disclose every time, what you really don't have is the right to judge someone else -- why?? because, unless you were a party to it, you don't know what went down, you are simply taking an absolute position and applying to every situation. That is what is so fucked up in your ridiculous thread here.
Also -- putting the onus only on the pos guy is not going to help end infections, in fact it may have the opposite. If you think one needs to judge whether or not to use a condom on whether or not someone says I'm poz or I'm neg, well -- many of us are here from using that approach. I know -- now you will say that isn't what I'm saying -- but you are Blanch, you are. I've yet to see you take any responsibility for your infection -- and I've yet to see you say anything about the necessity for condom use every time (by a neg person). It's always about what the pos guy should do.
There is nothing more dangerous than someone who is so convinced that they are right and can not look at what anyone else is saying. You see, I personally hope I would always disclose, because I think that is the right thing to do FOR ME. You are looking at poz disclosure from the eyes of a victim and until you leave your victimhood behind, it is not the rest of us who are bitter queens -- IT IS YOU.
So..... enjoy the view from high on your horse and pedestal -- look out for the fall though, it will be a big one.
Mike
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No shit it's not easy. I never said it was. From the beginning I said if you are positive you should disclose to your sexual partners. What's so bad and so hard here. Instead I am met with bitchy queens bringing up things I shared and trying to be cruel.
No, we were pointing out old things said about yourself in an effort to make you into a less judgmental, nasty, moralizing queen while simultaneously playing the victim (which, naturally, you're still doing as I wake up and am having my first coffee).
You know some asked me the other day are you only going to date HIV positive people? I said I don't know but so far I haven't met one that isn't messed up in the head. Me included.
... you don't say
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There is no victim miss, you and I just don't see things the same. I have never gone back and used your earlier post against you. That's one thing your great at.
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There is no victim miss, you and I just don't see things the same. I have never gone back and used your earlier post against you. That's one thing your great at.
Right, because I'm the only one has stated that you're doing this in the thread -- playing the victim. As far as what I brought up about things you said in previous threads your hypocrisy about disclosure and HIV criminalization is entirely relevant, and it's quite noticeable that you've failed to adress what I earlier stated. You initially brought up the context of your own infection and ex-husband here, not me.
You really are a piece of work.
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PozJeepGuy.
Your morality works for you but its hardy for everyone, and hardly appropriate in all situations.
1) There are plenty of places in this world where there is no need to disclose HIV or for that matter, any health issue, or anything, before having sex.
2) There are millions of people who are HIV+ and certainly do have safe sex with others and don't feel the same moral obligation as you. Meaning they have safe sex and don't say they are HIV+.
FURTHERMORE, there are certainly many many people who know they are HIV+ and also are undetectable, and have safe sex with others, without disclosing.
We can't know the details on the relationship between the serodiscordant couple having this safe sex. We are talking about populations. On the level of a population, I don't see anything immoral about such actions.
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Mecch, I hear ya man. I was floored the other day about another post were the guy knew he was positive and up front lied about it. I personally can't see where that is ok. Because he went back and told this guy to go get pep and that made everything ok?. I am talking when some one actually knows they are positive. I get the before conversion and before you know for sure. You didn't know. But to up front lie and still have sex with some one and you didn't disclose, that is wrong. atleast for me it is.
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I only brought this because I have lost sleep over that other post. I can't get it out of my head. I never said to disclose to your neighbors and ect. I said we should disclose to sexual partners before intercourse.
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I'm left to wonder why Poz Jeep guy felt the need to start a thread like this one and use the language he chose . I'm thinking given his past posting history he is still trying to work out his anger issues about becoming HIV positive . What ever it is he chose some really hateful and close minded words in trying to work out those issues . It sure isn't pretty .
After reading disclosure threads on the forum for years I changed my mind about how I felt about the issue , but then again I was open to to hear and consider other peoples point of view and was able to learn some things I hadn't considered before .
Are you really surprised that people get offended when you call them immoral and monsters because they have a diffrent point of view ?
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But to up front lie and still have sex with some one and you didn't disclose, that is wrong. atleast for me it is.
That's fair.
But mistakes do happen. People are people and sometimes other things can get in the way of that (like intoxication or situational issues). To paint every situation with a broad brush of its the Poz persons responsibility. That's not fair.
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I was floored the other day about another post were the guy knew he was positive and up front lied about it. I personally can't see where that is ok. I am talking when some one actually knows they are positive. I get the before conversion and before you know for sure. You didn't know. But to up front lie and still have sex with some one and you didn't disclose, that is wrong. atleast for me it is.
This is something that is as old as the dawn once this virus reared its ugly head and people started being infected. Especially with the stigma that being poz carries. There are many people out there still who cannot handle the rejection that often happens when they disclose. So they lie, that is, if they know they are poz. Not withstanding, there are men who do the noble thing and insist upon safe sex, but there are also the rare few who believe in spreading their seed and taking down the whole ship, if they could. And there are also those fucked up bug chasers who are adamant on getting themselves infected because they feel they will be free.
Just look online, I am sure a good percentage of men on these hookup sites are NOT being truthful when it comes to them being negative... especially when you take into consideration it is all too common to see some proudly touting "neg as of [date]" and that date happens to be 50 years ago (okay, so I'm exaggerating, but you get the picture that some people think that since they got tested 24 months ago, they are still neg.)
Take stupidity such as this, people seeking partners that are "clean" or "DDF/UB2" you can imagine why some men don't feel compelled to disclose, especially when the ultimate goal is landing a fuck with someone they're hot for.
So tell me Jake, in this hypothetical situation (taking AIDS out of the situation) if a woman doesn't insist upon a condom and winds up pregnant, is it her fault? Can the man say it's her fault, if he didn't particularly want a child?
I'm just trying to see how the responsibility angle plays out....
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That's fair.
But mistakes do happen. People are people and sometimes other things can get in the way of that (like intoxication or situational issues). To paint every situation with a broad brush of its the Poz persons responsibility. That's not fair.
Exactly, it just as much my responsibility as it is my NEG other-half' Bob's responsibility ;)
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I only brought this because I have lost sleep over that other post. I can't get it out of my head. I never said to disclose to your neighbors and ect. I said we should disclose to sexual partners before intercourse.
Who in this thread, or the other one for that matter, said we should not disclose?
Did you ever resolve that med issue of yours?
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Still not on meds. I have my own issues on that one that after this thread I dont feel comfortable sharing.
I have no idea about a women getting preggers. I so gay I told understand straight relationships. I always joke and say god says being straight is wrong and they all are going to hell. Seriously that was a joke. Let me be clear that was a joke.
Talking about that other thread he said the said I'm neg and he said me too. Then felt horrible about lieing. I'm not asking anyone to do anything that I myself don't do.
The monster statement was about pozzies Going out and not disclosing and having bare sex and infecting people because they just don't want disclose makes all pozzies look like monsters to the out side communities.
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Still not on meds. I have my own issues on that one that after this thread I dont feel comfortable sharing.
@ PozJeepGuy your only hurting your own health in the long run ,by not being on any AVRs ???
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I have no idea about a women getting preggers. I so gay I told understand straight relationships. I always joke and say god says being straight is wrong and they all are going to hell. Seriously that was a joke. Let me be clear that was a joke.
That's fair. I wasn't concerned about the pregnancy itself. I basically was asking how you felt about if it resulted from a woman not insisting upon her partner using a condom (because AIDS wasn't the main concern hypothetically). I just wondered where you felt the responsibility would lie in a situation as such, that's all. You can surely see how it could be similar to someone getting infected, as a child could possibly be something which neither partner desired; they were only thinking about the sex. No big deal.
The monster statement was about pozzies Going out and not disclosing and having bare sex and infecting people because they just don't want disclose makes all pozzies look like monsters to the out side communities.
If you look in the news, it's not only gay men who aren't disclosing. Remember there have been numerous threads where straight men have received stiff penalties after being prosecuted for deliberately infecting women and I don't think anyone here on these forums condone that sort of activity. As most have said, there is no one size fits all scenario, and each individual must decide for themselves when it is proper for them to drop the "A" bomb to any potential partner.
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Yes I am aware. The first round was so so bad I'm just not ready to go for round two. Next regiment is already picked out.
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I only brought this because I have lost sleep over that other post. I can't get it out of my head. I never said to disclose to your neighbors and ect. I said we should disclose to sexual partners before intercourse.
And therein lies another element of the problem - outside of the judgments, you have also stated that non-disclosure to a sexual partner feeds and reinforces stigma. Yet, you state that you never said to disclose to neighbors and ect. ---- this lack of being out about one's status perpetuates more stigma than non-disclosure to a sexual partner could ever create.
In fact, as shown through the research (go figure - research should actually be applied to thought), putting the responsibility for "safe sex" and disclosure fully on the positive person reinforces and creates stigma.
Disclosure to the general populace reduces stigma significantly. If research citations are needed to back up my previous sentence - please believe me when I say I can supply.
Disclosure to the general populace shows that people with HIV are not monsters, are not to be ostracized, that we contribute to society, that we face many of the same issues that others face, and most of us have the same moral compass as others.
Only disclosing in the context of a darkened bedroom before a ravaging sexual experience, places the issue of a person being HIV+ into a context that makes it one that is seen as something people should fear, run from, and removes all of the other elements of the person being a human who is capable of having positive relationships from the equation. This reinforces all of the negative stigma surrounding HIV that has gone on for too long. Criminalization of nondisclosure is the icing on the cake that further magnifies stigma. Maybe we should consider criminalization of nondisclosure of persons who have been unfaithful in relationships?
Supporting the prosecution of persons for nondisclosure is paramount to giving license to the prosecution or segregation of persons with HIV period. It totally removes the other party from any responsibility. Ultimately, if it is the other person's health that might be impacted - than it is their responsibility to take whatever steps needed to protect their health and not put that responsibility on some other party.
I do have a real issue with the whole outlook of I am going to be in the closet with my HIV status to the whole world - with the exception of those that I am getting intimate with - but then I am going to elevate myself to a level of judgment on those who don't disclose in intimate situations and support their prosecution.
Of course, we could solve this whole problem.... we could just tattoo "HIV+" on all of our pozzie foreheads (oh, but that would mean that everyone would know --- and that's right --- you only want to take the high road of disclosure when in the bedroom).... You'll excuse me if I am of the opinion of not giving much weight to people who want to limit their disclosure to the bedroom. Full disclosure - in the open, non-sex act related world goes along way toward making disclosure in the bedroom a non-issue and actually has a tangible impact on reducing/eliminating stigma.
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy8/phildinftlaudy/Neverbecool.jpg)
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Still not on meds. I have my own issues on that one that after this thread I dont feel comfortable sharing.
I have no idea about a women getting preggers. I so gay I told understand straight relationships. I always joke and say god says being straight is wrong and they all are going to hell. Seriously that was a joke. Let me be clear that was a joke.
Talking about that other thread he said the said I'm neg and he said me too. Then felt horrible about lieing. I'm not asking anyone to do anything that I myself don't do.
The monster statement was about pozzies Going out and not disclosing and having bare sex and infecting people because they just don't want disclose makes all pozzies look like monsters to the out side communities.
You need to be on meds. You are much more of a health risk to yourself and others by not being on meds. Delaying isn't going to stop the side effects from happening the quicker you know about them the quicker you can move on to treatments that work for you.
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You need to be on meds. You are much more of a health risk to yourself and others by not being on meds.
Not necessarily, Adonis. Especially when you hold the belief that a high CD4 count + full disclosure means that there is absolutely no risk of transmission from you to your partner(s). Not directly saying this is the case with anyone on this thread, but there are many people who think this way :o
Edited to add this snippet taken from this thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=41648.0) to provide weak support for my argument
Interesting I never thought that it could happen with the meds being so good at keeping the VL undetectable! I have taken a few on and when the VL spiked I scaled back and everything returns to normal again by the time a new series of tests are performed, which for me is every 3 months.
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Seriously, like Solo_LTS says. Personally I had a detectable viral load for over a decade, and had several sero-discordant relationships. Condoms were always used and I never became a monster and passed on my seed.
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Full disclosure - in the open, non-sex act related world goes along way toward making disclosure in the bedroom a non-issue and actually has a tangible impact on reducing/eliminating stigma.
Exactly! :)
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Not necessarily, Adonis. Especially when you hold the belief that a high CD4 count + full disclosure means that there is absolutely no risk of transmission from you to your partner(s). Not directly saying this is the case with anyone on this thread, but there are many people who think this way :o
Really? Does that mean VL is low? VL is a better measure for possibility to transmit I would imagine but I could be wrong here.
Simply disclosing doesn't mean anything as far as the no risk of transmission. There is always risk of transmission whether you know about the HIV or not. You are never going to get around that.
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I was floored the other day about another post were the guy knew he was positive and up front lied about it. I personally can't see where that is ok. Because he went back and told this guy to go get pep and that made everything ok?.
This is where you are really showing your inability to see anything other than your predetermined mindset. That person never said what he did was "OK" -- if he had thought that, he never would have posted. He MADE A MISTAKE, let me repeat that for you -- HE MADE A MISTAKE, and was guilt-ridden over it. Instead of offering support you called him an immoral monster. For someone with as many issues as you have, one would think you would be willing to offer support instead of judging.
You also might want to talk to you therapist about why this incident is keeping you up at night. Why you feel a need to keep bringing up his mistake and, potentially, make him feel worse. One realy should clean their own house before attacking someone else -- and even more importantly, one should read the situation properly, instead of twisting it to provide a platform for moral outrage.
Mike
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I only brought this because I have lost sleep over that other post. I can't get it out of my head.
SRSLY? You need to get yourself a hobby or something. Reading might be a good thing.
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SRSLY? You need to get yourself a hobby or something. Reading might be a good thing.
... or kittycats. Here are mine:
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/bedstuy65/394545_2725107319824_1021369365_32824651_1473377057_n.jpg)
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I remember early last year I met this guy and I wasn't really attracted to him. I asked him about his HIV status right before we were going to start messing around and he said he was positive and that I shouldn't ask it the way I did because most HIV+ guys would've lied and he made it sound like it was my fault. I left after that little exchange and right after I texted him that I was too.
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... or kittycats. Here are mine:
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/bedstuy65/394545_2725107319824_1021369365_32824651_1473377057_n.jpg)
I love me some pussies :D
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... or kittycats.
... or perhaps dancing?
(http://files.myopera.com/vumn2301/blog/6a00cdf39f7a8dcb8f00fa9678c3540003-320pi.jpg)
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Or Imaginative Stylish Needlepoint......
http://www.ehrmantapestry.com/?mpch=ads
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How judgmental... we all know people get infected from those who don't know their positive status or simply don't use condoms. Disclosure has nothing to do with this. It's annoying to see someone trying to prove himself that he's better than others by throwing around judgments.
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I also have a puppydoggie (and I like colorful bed linens)
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/bedstuy65/29213_1500901247565_1385199026_31448556_6588920_n.jpg)
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Mornin *yawn* shouldnt all you heathens be in church washing away your sins?
anyways, I win...
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af308/IwuvPhilly/best.jpg)
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I also have a puppydoggie (and I like colorful bed linens)
Miss P, somehow I think this guy (http://www.brandonmably.com/1/Biography.html) that I stumbled across (courtesy Dennis' link) has you beat:
(http://www.brandonmably.com/images/BrandonQuiltCover-400h.jpg)
Incidentally, what's in that shopping bag next to the baseboard?
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Being recently infected, I'll cut you some slack due to the raw emotions that this news brings. I've always joked that it was drunken college party where I got infected. I've never admitted here how it really happened. The person I loved most in the world was already infected and chose to withhold that from me. All the typical fears of abandonment, etc.... It took me quite a while to forgive and move on but I did. I came to accept that I COULD have become infected by that hot guy who I had a hot night of raw sex with on my birthday in college, although probably not. Forgiving the person who probably gave me this virus required me to take accountability and my responsibility for my behaviors and actions also.
The one thing that always bothers about the morality side of any argument is; who will reign over that position? I'm glad you view it as the moral thing to disclose, as do I. But how do we collectively decide what is moral and what should the consequences be? Some might argue that it is the moral responsibility to quit funding expensive HIV drugs since it behavioral issue. In some cultures it's still moral to stone a cheating wife. Hopefully that's not your morality? Too often people confuse morality with judgmentalism. Our individual codes of ethics and morals is too deeply individualized to form a collective consensus.
I hope your can come to grips with a lot of internal anger that still haunts you. I learned from experience that it's a bitter place that punishes worst the one who is angry.
Take care and wishing you good mental health.
Wolfie
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Miss P, somehow I think this guy (http://www.brandonmably.com/1/Biography.html) that I stumbled across (courtesy Dennis' link) has you beat:
Incidentally, what's in that shopping bag next to the baseboard?
What else SEX TOYS ;D
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... or perhaps dancing?
Or start a new collection. Here's a suggestion. My understanding is that proper disclosure took place prior to each donation.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz42/livebythemoon/1f7f59b1.jpg)
Mornin *yawn* shouldnt all you heathens be in church washing away your sins?
anyways, I win...
Byotch, please. PINCH ME!
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Incidentally, what's in that shopping bag next to the baseboard?
Oh, just my outfit for tonight... sewing and shopping (with my puppydoggy in tow) are my other hobbies:
(http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/bedstuy65/279171_2292653600879_1385199026_32826330_4172549_o.jpg)
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Oh, just my outfit for tonight... sewing and shopping (with my puppydoggy in tow) are my other hobbies:
Faboolous dahling! Shi shi shi!! I think I may try that outfit tonight with my new hairdo.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz42/livebythemoon/68942bcd.jpg)
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Or start a new collection. Here's a suggestion. My understanding is that proper disclosure took place prior to each donation.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz42/livebythemoon/1f7f59b1.jpg)
Or even better: piss.
http://bcove.me/5xx5z18y
I hear it has antiseptic and medicinal qualities that kill anything, including superbugs ;)
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What else SEX TOYS ;D
;D ??? ;)
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Being recently infected, I'll cut you some slack due to the raw emotions that this news brings. I've always joked that it was drunken college party where I got infected. I've never admitted here how it really happened.
Wolfie
I got teh AIDS from a toilet seat and a syring half full on herion, with some leather daddies blood in it, as he handed it to me, way back in 1981 (I was still in the Closet and had not come to terms with my queer sexually) he DIED in 95, may he rest-in-peace, and even to this day, I have no animosity toward him at all it is what it is ;)
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I got teh AIDS from a toilet seat and a syring half full on herion, with some leather daddies blood in it...
it is what it is ;)
Recently I saw a post on CL where this neg guy was seeking a leather daddy to party him up and whore him out and force him to take loads so that he would seroconvert in the end and I had thought about originating a thread about how bizarro it is that there are still bug chasers in existence and how people felt. He actively was recruiting poz men in his ad, and said no load refused.
Glad I didn't now with the way this thread is going ;D
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I'm innocent because I got my AIDS safely within the confines of a committed monogamous one-sided relationship. :o
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I'm innocent because I got my AIDS safely within the confines of a committed monogamous one-sided relationship. :o
HONEY ....nobody in this forum is really innocent as far as how we all got teh AIDS, I'm not buying that one at all , unless someone shoot teh AIDS into your ass, and lied to you and said they didn't have it PLEASE ;D
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I'm innocent because I got my AIDS safely within the confines of a committed monogamous one-sided relationship. :o
Was this some sort immaculate infection?
"Vagenda was shocked to hear from the nurse at the free clinic that she done got herself da clap again, even though she ain't been giving it up for no one, no how, for quite some time. Unfortunately, no one bought her Immaculate Infection explanation, not even her minister."
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Was this some sort immaculate infection?
"Vagenda was shocked to hear from the nurse at the free clinic that she done got herself da clap again, even though she ain't been giving it up for no one, no how, for quite some time. Unfortunately, no one bought her Immaculate Infection explanation, not even her minister."
I guess you could say an immaculate infection of sorts...for lack of a honest explanation. :-X
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I guess you could say an immaculate infection of sorts...for lack of a honest explanation. :-X
I thought that was the way it always happened???! That is, unless you were like me and got teh AIDS from huffing brown bottles on the dance floor ::)
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Recently I saw a post on CL where this neg guy was seeking a leather daddy to party him up and whore him out and force him to take loads so that he would seroconvert in the end and I had thought about originating a thread about how bizarro it is that there are still bug chasers in existence and how people felt. He actively was recruiting poz men in his ad, and said no load refused.
Glad I didn't now with the way this thread is going ;D
Back in 81 I was only 24 going on 25, did I use poor judgment putting that syringe into my arm, YES, I'd say so ;)
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Back in 81 I was only 24 going on 25, did I use poor judgment putting that syringe into my arm, YES, I'd say so ;)
How conservative of you aging sequentially and all .
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I guess you could say an immaculate infection of sorts...for lack of a honest explanation. :-X
Yeah right........ immaculate infection my ass, hey I gotta bridge to sell you in southern New Mexico, and it's REAL CHEAP ;D ;D ;D
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Even thought I practice this 99.9% of the time... at what point does personal responsibility come into play? I don't know the other person's sexual history. I assumed if they are adamant about having unprotected sex then they must be like like me. This HIV stuff is so complicated. I get a head ache thinking about it. Sometimes I just want to end it all.
Dont think about it to that point Adonis.
You didn't get much reponse to the thread, but I did try to put it in perspective.
You are not morally compromised.. Just consider if there were any legal risks. And in any event, I think you need to put this in perspective and act cooly and very rationally in your own best interests.
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How conservative of you aging sequentially and all .
Oh gee Jeff ....that's so sweet of you dear :-* age and experience has it's merits.........right?
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Back in 81 I was only 24 going on 25, did I use poor judgment putting that syringe into my arm, YES, I'd say so ;)
Actually your behavior was rather commonplace in the pre-AIDS days, as many of us were indulging in all sorts of things before GRID appeared because we didn't know any better. Think about it, if you got an STD, you ran into fags that you saw in the bar all the time at the clinic getting popped in the ass and taking raw dick the minute they left the clinic ;)
I honestly don't think people (especially gay men) of a certain age deliberately set out to get infected.
But if given the choice now if I could jump in a time machine and go back, I probably would do the same shit all over again as I feel becoming poz has made me a better person - when it comes to appreciating life (after having a near death experience from PCP) and people. I accept full responsibility for getting pozzed up. No one forced me to do any of the shit I did back in the day.
(And) for the record, I do disclose openly... and I prefer to connect with other pozzies. I have been in sero-discordant relationships in the past but I was just too fearful of doing something that might infect the other person, no matter how careful we were.
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I only brought this because I have lost sleep over that other post. I can't get it out of my head. I never said to disclose to your neighbors and ect. I said we should disclose to sexual partners before intercourse.
You have a right to make your own moral jugement about a particular situation, based on the information you have heard.
Your mistake is that you are making a "general" or "universal" moral judgement and there are millions of acts of intercourse and many millions of people for which, for whom, your moral judgement doesn't hold water.
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Actually your behavior was rather commonplace in the pre-AIDS days, as many of us were indulging in all sorts of things before GRID appeared because we didn't know any better. Think about it, if you got an STD, you ran into fags that you saw in the bar all the time at the clinic getting popped in the ass and taking raw dick the minute they left the clinic ;)
I honestly don't think people (especially gay men) of a certain age deliberately set out to get infected.
But if given the choice now if I could jump in a time machine and go back, I probably would do the same shit all over again as I feel becoming poz has made me a better person - when it comes to appreciating life (after having a near death experience from PCP) and people. I accept full responsibility for getting pozzed up. No one forced me to do any of the shit I did back in the day.
(And) for the record, I do disclose openly... and I prefer to connect with other pozzies. I have been in sero-discordant relationships in the past but I was just too fearful of doing something that might infect the other person, no matter how careful we were.
That's interesting I feel the same way. Things can always be worse off than they currently are.
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The monster statement was about pozzies Going out and not disclosing and having bare sex and infecting people because they just don't want disclose makes all pozzies look like monsters to the out side communities.
My feeling is that you haven't fully come to terms with your diagnosis nor the relationship full of lies that produced it. Nor how to live well with it. Its a killer virus, has a dirty reputation because its an STD, and it costs a lot to treat. The treatment is VERY effective if you are living a life that can pay for it.
What is more, you seem to think disclosure is necessary because you seem to think that there are such poz monsters. You kind of paint your ex as one of them.
Life has a LOT of grey areas my dear. Where black and white doesn't tell the whole story. Where contradictions coexist. I feel that its time for you to start thinking with more naunce and freedom about the value and truth of things. This might mean, however, that your improve you critical capacity to look at and think about situations.
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Yeah right........ immaculate infection my ass, hey I gotta bridge to sell you in southern New Mexico, and it's REAL CHEAP ;D ;D ;D
HEY!!!! That's not fair! You promised to sell that bridge to me! Oh well, back to Ebay. Maybe I will just buy some nice desert property in South Florida. My friend said he can get me some real cheap.
BTW, right after being diagnosed I had sex with a beautiful female prostitute (I didn't disclose) - just found out that she got pregnant and had my love child.... below is a family picture:
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy8/phildinftlaudy/kermit.png)
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Actually your behavior was rather commonplace in the pre-AIDS days, as many of us were indulging in all sorts of things before GRID appeared because we didn't know any better.
(And) for the record, I do disclose openly... and I prefer to connect with other pozzies. I have been in sero-discordant relationships in the past but I was just too fearful of doing something that might infect the other person, no matter how careful we were.
Nothing to be fearful of being in a sero-discordant relationship, I've been in one for many many yrs. our sex-life is GREAT, were both the same age, and do share a lotta of the same likes & dislikes, however, were both 2 very different versions of gay men, and i think that alone keep the fires burning with the both of us after all these yrs. ;)
EDITED TO ADD: STOP thinking about this as teh AIDS, sero-discordant, pozzies only or whatever, I jumped that old tried hurdle yrs ago, and went on with my life
it is what it is, please don't allow teh AIDS to define you as a person, a monster, or dateless & desperate, you'll never enjoy life as a whole thinking and being that way about yourself ;)
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I thought that was the way it always happened???! That is, unless you were like me and got teh AIDS from huffing brown bottles on the dance floor ::)
Hahaha!!! ;D
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My feeling is that you haven't fully come to terms with your diagnosis nor the relationship full of lies that produced it. Nor how to live well with it. Its a killer virus, has a dirty reputation because its an STD, and it costs a lot to treat. The treatment is VERY effective if you are living a life that can pay for it.
What is more, you seem to think disclosure is necessary because you seem to think that there are such poz monsters. You kind of paint your ex as one of them.
Life has a LOT of grey areas my dear. Where black and white doesn't tell the whole story. Where contradictions coexist. I feel that its time for you to start thinking with more naunce and freedom about the value and truth of things. This might mean, however, that your improve you critical capacity to look at and think about situations.
Say it again, but next time LOUDER, Mecchie. You hit the nail on the head. This is the underlying issue that many people have been trying to point out since the very start of the OP's threads, especially when he was trying to rationalize whether he should stop taking ARVs. It was evident that it felt like he was still in denial because he had become one of them and the meds were validating that very fact.
Which is sad, as it's a common theme that people feel the need to think they become less of a person if they succumb to taking the evil drugs because it somehow is a dead giveaway that they are now tainted.
Nothing to be fearful of being in a sero-discordant relationship, I've been in one for many many yrs. our sex-life is GREAT, were both the same age, and do share a lotta of the same likes & dislikes, however, were both 2 very different versions of gay men, and i think that alone keep the fires burning with the both of us after all these yrs. ;)
EDITED TO ADD: STOP thinking about this as teh AIDS, sero-discordant, pozzies only or whatever, I jumped that old tried hurdle yrs ago, and went on with my life
it is what it is, please don't allow teh AIDS to define you as a person, a monster, or dateless & desperate, you'll never enjoy life as a whole thinking and being that way about yourself ;)
True, Dennis... I dunno. I just don't think I'm at the point in my head that things could be OK with someone who's neg. Maybe it's for selfish reasons, because the particular men I was involved with were fairly limited in how far they were willing to venture, sexually -- and hand jobs and blow jobs don't make it out of the ranks of foreplay to me. Who knows? If I met a neg guy who was a bit more informed than the ones I was involved with and I didn't feel so limited, then maybe I'd give it a shot ;)
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BTW, right after being diagnosed I had sex with a beautiful female prostitute (I didn't disclose) - just found out that she got pregnant and had my love child.... below is a family picture:
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy8/phildinftlaudy/kermit.png)
In that case, Philster, I'm wondering if I can get Michael Fassbender to impregnate me? He has a beautiful schlong ;)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HxbqCd52O9w/TgKhtnVpOoI/AAAAAAAAAMM/YLnQ-1yRO9I/s1600/michael-fassbender-x-men-first-class-magneto.jpg)
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Intercourse, or indeed in Anglo-saxon vernacular shagging, is not the only situation where disclosure is important, employment may be one, telling family may be another. Perhaps one reason why there are many disclosure threads on many forums.
Sex is not always equal, indeed is sometimes transactional, accompanied by personal risk, involves dodgy people, secrets and wider considerations like if I tell my husband I tested positive at the maternity unit and he kicks me out or gets violent as he is prone to who will look after the kids/will I end up in bits and pieces/dead? This may be another reason.
Disclosing to yourself is the first step, and getting in a paddy over sexual rejection because of HIV means you still ain't okay about being positive and the limitations it sometimes brings. This is common, and perhaps a third reason for disclosure threads.
So long live disclosure threads, for like efavirenz side effects questions they will always be current for the forseeable future. Esp when the world is so unreal about HIV that you can get 35 years for spitting at a prison guard if your are poz.
- matt
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I have to say I am stunned at the amount of disclosure questions. I get the hard part of it when it comes to dating and when and how to tell. What I don't get is why is there even a question about disclosing before you have sex. We all have a moral responsibility to tell any and all sexual partners. I got a lot of shit from people about being all high and mighty about the subject. We all ( for the most part) are here because someone didn't disclose to us. Do you really want to do this to some one else all in the sake of getting some. If you answered yes, well you have no morals and you make the rest of us look like monsters.
Bottom line folks, it is your responsibility to tell. You dont want to, well tuff shit. Do the right thing. The world will be a better place because you did. My mom always says god doesn't like ugly. I couldn't agree more with her.
My opinion is that you have no power over anyone and why should anyone listen to you, when you refer to us as monsters and typical queens. I've tried so hard to be supportive of you and your situation, but until you accept the fact that you are just as guilty in becoming poz... there is nothing more to say. I don't trust people who insist that others live by their morals, especially when their own morals are suspect. I also don't trust people who intentionally delude themselves into believing they are the perpetual victim.
Nothing will change for you until you mature enough to realize that you allowed yourself to become poz. You seem intent on avoiding your own major issues and instead you choose to project your horror and shame on everyone around you. Sorry, life does not work that way. Very few things are either black or white and we are all responsible for both what we do to others and what we allow to be to done to ourselves. The whole idea of disclosure is to protect others from harm, however, there are many ways to protect others, other than through disclosure alone and it still takes two people for anyone to become infected.
One last thought. Morals come from within us, not from some imaginary being. I find that trying to invoke a god in a discussion about disclosure to be counter productive. Religious faith has never been a good predictor of how one should act in life and it's a contradictory source on which to base the laws of humans. Opinions are one thing, moralizing and demonizing anyone with whom you do not agree is quite another.
You might want to show a little more respect for the members of this forum.
Joe
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This is where I say have a good day. And mike thanks for giving me Slack that is so so kind of you
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This is where I say have a good day. And mike thanks for giving me Slack that is so so kind of you
So, it all fell on deaf ears -- I suppose that isn't so surprising. Now you can go wallow in your victimhood, with the surety that you are right and the world is wrong.
I truly hope you come to a point of peace with your infection -- it may, quite literally, be the difference between life and death -- or at least between a life of unhappiness, where someone else's error in judgement (based on his posts, not my judgement) keeps you awake in moral indignation or a life of living.....
Mike
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This is where I say have a good day. And mike thanks for giving me Slack that is so so kind of you
Jake,
I hope you don't think that I do not comprehend what you may be feeling, because I do. I can't imagine what it would be like to be cheated on and contract HIV. Your moral outrage at what has happened, is right and necessary, until it isn't. I know how challenging it can be, to have conflicting thoughts and feelings, it's hard and at times it can seem overwhelming. I get that, I really do. What I also know, is that not all feelings are facts and some feelings can be very damaging.
I'll guess that you might feel dirty, because you have HIV and how you got it. I'll even venture that because of what your ex did, which in your mind, made him a monster, might influence how you see yourself, as a monster and full disclosure will somehow mitigate that horror. My point is you are not a monster, you are poz. What happened to you was not right, nor was it fair and you cannot change the past. Grieve if you must, but at some point you need to explore why you dislike yourself so much. I'll be honest, the journey with HIV can be very hard, parts of it can almost crush your spirit and the physical and psychological aspects can take years to address. There is nothing you can do to change history, nothing.
All you can do is to find a place, within yourself, where you can make sense of all that has happened. I sometimes get frustrated with folks who just won't consider there are many ways to see a situation and that feelings can and do influence our perceptions. I just want to help you heal and all I can offer is that you need to start addressing these issues, because they can destroy you. I've spent years in therapy, so that someone could help guide me to a place of contentment with myself.
It doesn't mean that I delude myself, or claim it wasn't that bad, because it was and it hurt like hell. Through therapy and meds I have been able to see myself for who and what I am and to love what I see. That's what I want for you Jake. For you to not feel like a monster, or someone who is not worth saving through meds, because you are not a monster and you matter.
Sometimes people need to be pushed to get moving and that's what I am doing for you. Please take the time to invest in yourself. You can adjust to being poz and live the life you need. Right now, you still seem so angry that I fear you will never begin to understand how damaging that can be. I'm hoping that sharing some of these ideas, can help you to avoid some of the pain that I endured, because I didn't know any better.
Joe
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Post infection moralizing is tedious.
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Post infection moralizing is tedious.
WORD.
I have slogged through this thread today, and it's one of those times when I couldn't decide if I was more (a.) irritated enough to reply or (b.) too fatigued with it all to bother.
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WORD.
I have slogged through this thread today, and it's one of those times when I couldn't decide if I was more (a.) irritated enough to reply or (b.) too fatigued with it all to bother.
I'm in the same position, Tim. But here I go, though I'm probably wasting my breath.
PozJeepGuy, you believe that HIV+ people who don't disclose before having sex are "wrong" and "have no morals" and are "monsters". So what? That doesn't do a damn thing to change the fact that some people don't disclose, for host of reasons. For those who are struggling with the stigma of being HIV+, you've just ratcheted up the stigma a few more notches. The world is not packaged up as "black and white" as you would like it to be. I'd rather have the open conversations about why people don't disclose. That's where people learn, come to an understanding of themselves, and build the self-confidence to do things like disclose, and combat stigma, and go about living their life with HIV. But your position on the moral high ground seeks to obviate these conversations and the need for them, and that's why I am irritated.
P.S. edited only for grammar
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c. can't decide exactly what to say
:-X
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I'm in the same position, Tim. But here I go, though I'm probably wasting my breath.
PozJeepGuy, you believe that HIV+ people who don't disclose before having sex are "wrong" and "have no morals" and are "monsters". So what? That doesn't do a damn thing to change the fact that some people don't disclose, for host of reasons. For those who are struggling with the stigma of being HIV+, you've just ratcheted up the stigma a few more notches. The world is not packaged up as "black and white" as you would like it to be. I'd rather have the open conversations about why people don't disclose. That's where people learn, come to an understanding of themselves, and build the self-confidence to do things like disclose, and combat stigma, and go about living their life with HIV. But your position on the moral high ground seeks to obviate these conversations and the need for them, and that's why I am irritated.
P.S. edited only for grammar
I can always trust you, Henry, to managing the right words for what I'm having trouble finding a way to spit out.
I read another thread on here a few days back - one mentioned in this one about the guy who had had BB sex and was feeling remorse about it - and I was pretty appalled by the pile-on that some people chose for that guy. People falter, they make bad choices, they flat out screw up from time to time. I think it took a lot of guts on that guy's part to post that thread in the first place.
I have to say that I have a lot more respect for that guy's motives for posting than I do for the OP's of this thread.
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This thread has nothing to do with disclosure
This pretty well sums up this thread. The disclosure angle was just the hook, not the subject. If nothing else, some of the responses may help others to avoid becoming so delusional, so that they act against their own best interests. Abject denial is never pretty.
Joe
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This pretty well sums up this thread. The disclosure angle was just the hook, not the subject.
↟↟↟↟↟↟↟
so troo dis ↟↟↟↟
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz42/livebythemoon/123df062.jpg)
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Post infection moralizing is tedious.
I beat myself up everyday trying to moralize the HIV away.
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I beat myself up everyday trying to moralize the HIV away.
Someday, hopefully soon, you will stop. And when you do, you will have beaten this thing, regardless.
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I beat myself up everyday trying to moralize the HIV away.
Sorry you're at this point in your infection, some of us go through it needlessly. I wasted a good four years of life I could have spent.... well, enjoying for lack of a better term. I think this is the OP's issue as well, whether he wants to admit it or not.
Taking the turn to owning our mistakes is a simple one on the road to living with HIV.. Jake's (PozJeep) thread, bitter depression, and an inability to adjust to life living with this disease simply shows he has yet to take this turn.
It's sad, stuff like that can kill you as much as the virus can.
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All I said was to disclose to sexual partners. Nothing that has been said here will change my mind on this. I still feel we should disclose to all sexual partners. I refuse to let bitchy, mean, and hateful comments determen my path. I know there were a few supportive ones, and for those I am thankful. In the last day of showing friends and family this they are as stunned by people's reaction to this as well. When I said monster I meant the ass holes who regardless of anything else knowing go out and infect people. I don't come here looking for approval. I come here to get advise and see what others have to say. The first and only real opion I have had at all the subject of HIV (once again to just tell sexual partners) felt like coming out in high school all over again. I know moving forward I will tell anyone who is newly diagnosed the poz.com is a great website but stay out of the forums. They will persecute you and ridicule you if you have a different thought then the majority's.
I like who I am and finally starting to stop hating my life and really want to move forward. It's things like this that make me not want to go back on meds. If I have to deal with this level of crap for sharing things and have my last post thrown in my face and feel crapy all the time, and so forth and so on. Well like I just told my family and friends in my personal life. Just let this run it's course and let's try again in the next life. Thanks espically to rev moon, and miss p for your extra level of coldness.
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Not going to debate your opinions of the forums or its members, but why would you allow these perceived attacks determine whether or not you'll accept the viable options for treatment? I wish I could share with you the death and destruction that I witnessed so you would realize this isn't the way to go. It's a form of sanctioned suicide!!!! Also of importance; do you really want to put your loved ones through that pain and misery? Dying of AIDS isn't an instantaneous event, it's prolonged agony. Truly wishing you well and hope you process this all and figure out the actions that you need in order to overcome it all.
Wishing you great mental heath
Wolfie
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All I said was to disclose to sexual partners. Nothing that has been said here will change my mind on this. I still feel we should disclose to all sexual partners. I refuse to let bitchy, mean, and hateful comments determen my path. I know there were a few supportive ones, and for those I am thankful. In the last day of showing friends and family this they are as stunned by people's reaction to this as well. When I said monster I meant the ass holes who regardless of anything else knowing go out and infect people. I don't come here looking for approval. I come here to get advise and see what others have to say. The first and only real opion I have had at all the subject of HIV (once again to just tell sexual partners) felt like coming out in high school all over again. I know moving forward I will tell anyone who is newly diagnosed the poz.com is a great website but stay out of the forums. They will persecute you and ridicule you if you have a different thought then the majority's.
I like who I am and finally starting to stop hating my life and really want to move forward. It's things like this that make me not want to go back on meds. If I have to deal with this level of crap for sharing things and have my last post thrown in my face and feel crapy all the time, and so forth and so on. Well like I just told my family and friends in my personal life. Just let this run it's course and let's try again in the next life. Thanks espically to rev moon, and miss p for your extra level of coldness.
Oh dry up, you big Shirley. ::)
Nobody appointed you the Pontificator-in-Chief and that's why you're copping such a hard time now that you've taken that role to yourself.
You're in no position to tell others what to do considering that the rules didn't apply to you when it mattered.
As Saint Theresa of Avila noted
Lord, preserve me from sour faced saints.
MtD
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When I said monster I meant the ass holes who regardless of anything else knowing go out and infect people. e next life. Thanks espically to rev moon, and miss p for your extra level of coldness.
A lot of us got the feeling you were saying - every HIV+ must disclose to every partner, regardless of the circumstances, otherwise they are monsters.
You realize being more exact about your categories could prevent some of this inflammatory conversation. Everyone judges someone who is a Typhoid Mary and doesn't try to keep partners negative. And infects. Gee, that is a different topic.
As to why you link the topic of disclosure/nondisclosure to your reasoning why to treat or not treat your HIV infection, it is lost on most of us. That is behind most of what people are trying to discuss here, with you. There are self-damaging links between your judgements about how people have sex, and about being HIV+ that are getting all mixed up.
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I come here to get advise and see what others have to say.
I like who I am and finally starting to stop hating my life and really want to move forward.
Getting back on AVRs is probably a very good place to start, I do hope you come to terms with all of this so you can get a better prospective about your HIV/Health ::)
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Mech the only reason I brought the meds and crap was it was thrown at me in a earlier post. You right when you say I have it all confused. I will admit that
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Denb I hear ya but I'm honestly don't feel it.
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Denb I hear ya but I'm honestly don't feel it.
Well, I tried :'( wish there was something I could do to convince you :'(
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I know moving forward I will tell anyone who is newly diagnosed the poz.com is a great website but stay out of the forums. They will persecute you and ridicule you if you have a different thought then the majority's.
I like who I am and finally starting to stop hating my life and really want to move forward. It's things like this that make me not want to go back on meds. If I have to deal with this level of crap for sharing things and have my last post thrown in my face and feel crapy all the time, and so forth and so on. Well like I just told my family and friends in my personal life. Just let this run it's course and let's try again in the next life. Thanks espically to rev moon, and miss p for your extra level of coldness.
Really? All that was said to you, repeatedly (and not just by me and Philicia), was that you needed to stop the judgemental BS. Nobody ever told you that you should not disclose before having a sexual encounter. We all agree on the fact that people who fail to tell others about their known positive status before engaging in unprotected sexual activities are despicable; you made it sound as if every pozzie who doesn't walk around with an AIDS banner on their forehead is a "monster" without morals (your words, not mine). You stated that you supported every criminal case brought against HIV positive individuals without even considering that things are never just black and white.
If your friends and family read the replies within this thread and they still saw you as being in the right then they are simply enabling you and your victim mentality (and your high and mighty attitude).
Enough with your fucking drama as to whether you should take meds or stay on them. Enough with your high horse riding, throwing morality around and thinking that you are better than the people in this forum.
You though we were cold? Mary, please. Here is cold: Grow the fuck up. Stop being such an ultra-sensitive drama queen. Take your g_ddamned meds when the time comes and take care of your health; in the end that is your decision and your responsibility. And if you are so supposedly religious and spiritual then stop judging others (as you have done here and in the thread for the guy who had sex with another fella and was highly regretful of his actions). I've had enough of you and your bullshit, Jake.
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We all agree on the fact that people who fail to tell others about their known positive status before engaging in unprotected sexual activities are despicable
Actually PozJeep is saying even if you utilize a condom, failure to disclose renders one ineligible for heaven.
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Thanks you two. It's always a pleasure seeing your names pop up. As always a pleasure to read.
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Thanks you two. It's always a pleasure seeing your names pop up. As always a pleasure to read.
Well you know, they live to serve. :)
MtD
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Has anyone here had sexual contact without disclosing?
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Has anyone here had sexual contact without disclosing?
define sexual contact
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Has anyone here had sexual contact without disclosing?
Yup. What's it to you?
MtD
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All I said was to disclose to sexual partners. Nothing that has been said here will change my mind on this. I still feel we should disclose to all sexual partners. I refuse to let bitchy, mean, and hateful comments determen my path. I know there were a few supportive ones, and for those I am thankful. In the last day of showing friends and family this they are as stunned by people's reaction to this as well. When I said monster I meant the ass holes who regardless of anything else knowing go out and infect people. I don't come here looking for approval. I come here to get advise and see what others have to say. The first and only real opion I have had at all the subject of HIV (once again to just tell sexual partners) felt like coming out in high school all over again. I know moving forward I will tell anyone who is newly diagnosed the poz.com is a great website but stay out of the forums. They will persecute you and ridicule you if you have a different thought then the majority's.
I like who I am and finally starting to stop hating my life and really want to move forward. It's things like this that make me not want to go back on meds. If I have to deal with this level of crap for sharing things and have my last post thrown in my face and feel crapy all the time, and so forth and so on. Well like I just told my family and friends in my personal life. Just let this run it's course and let's try again in the next life. Thanks espically to rev moon, and miss p for your extra level of coldness.
Maybe we need a juvenile section of the forums, because I haven't witnessed such a tantrum since my daughter was about four. Your callous disregard for members of this forum, as witnessed by your generalizations and mean spirited comments is appalling. You can't even demonstrate one iota of maturity by admitting that some posters made reasoned and compassionate responses to your post. I'll bet you would not dare show this thread to your family/friends because it's very clear who the victims are here and they are not you. You even have the gall to mention that we reference things you have said, as if having some continuity of your story is a bad thing. Or might it be that your "words" betray you as the frightened and ungrateful person that you appear to be?
I no longer care if you take your meds or try and get your life together, because I have lost all respect for you. You lie and attempt to manipulate what others say, in good faith, to defend whatever your issue du jour happens to be. I'm possibly one of the most tolerant and supportive people you will ever find and it takes an awful lot to repulse me. Jake, you repulse me by your words and deeds.
I don't expect any reasoned response from you, as you are unable to comprehend anything that does not fit into your world view. Your last few "pithy" comments to posters, merely displays your utter contempt for anyone who challenges your views. So stay whatever course you choose and if you remember, tell your family to let us know when you die, so your story can serve as a warning to others.
Joe
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Has anyone here had sexual contact without disclosing?
Welcome to the forums. Are you poz?
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All I said was to disclose to sexual partners. Nothing that has been said here will change my mind on this. I still feel we should disclose to all sexual partners. I refuse to let bitchy, mean, and hateful comments determen my path. I know there were a few supportive ones, and for those I am thankful. In the last day of showing friends and family this they are as stunned by people's reaction to this as well. When I said monster I meant the ass holes who regardless of anything else knowing go out and infect people. I don't come here looking for approval. I come here to get advise and see what others have to say. The first and only real opion I have had at all the subject of HIV (once again to just tell sexual partners) felt like coming out in high school all over again. I know moving forward I will tell anyone who is newly diagnosed the poz.com is a great website but stay out of the forums. They will persecute you and ridicule you if you have a different thought then the majority's.
I like who I am and finally starting to stop hating my life and really want to move forward. It's things like this that make me not want to go back on meds. If I have to deal with this level of crap for sharing things and have my last post thrown in my face and feel crapy all the time, and so forth and so on. Well like I just told my family and friends in my personal life. Just let this run it's course and let's try again in the next life. Thanks espically to rev moon, and miss p for your extra level of coldness.
Relax already... You never did answer my previous question regarding who in this thread said not to disclose. You say you like who you are.... I don't buy it, sorry. I think you haven't come to grips with what you have and it's the reason you are seeing this so very unclear. Jake, you're jaded... understandable, happens to the best of us.
But it's this mentality of yours that makes life difficult for the rest of us. Pointing out this post to family and friends are we? I can see it all very clear.... "Look ma, all these people are monsters", "this is how your boy got infected!!"....
Give me a fucking break already.....
Let me paint this as clearly as possible for you and Ma to understand. We are all for disclosure here.... Does this mean new infections are going to stop? No... If a negative person wants to remain so he/she needs to take personal responsibility for their own well being. Your thinking here is part of the problem, passing the buck onto someone else just ain't cutting in the real world Jakey.... Ma at your side or not.
I don't know what kind of fantasy world you live in bud.
Are there some bad folks out there? Sure, turn on the news every night and check out who shot who...
But to align us good folks here, offering support to a guy who had a moment, as "monsters" is highly offensive.
As I pointed out to you in the other thread and made mention of in this one, all of this crap of yours is very much intertwined with how you feel about yourself and your ability to take the pills. You just don't seem to have the ability to see it.
Oh well.... I'm not losing any sleep.
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Maybe we need a juvenile section of the forums, because I haven't witnessed such a tantrum since my daughter was about four. Your callous disregard for members of this forum, as witnessed by your generalizations and mean spirited comments is appalling. You can't even demonstrate one iota of maturity by admitting that some posters made reasoned and compassionate responses to your post. I'll bet you would not dare show this thread to your family/friends because it's very clear who the victims are here and they are not you. You even have the gall to mention that we reference things you have said, as if having some continuity of your story is a bad thing. Or might it be that your "words" betray you as the frightened and ungrateful person that you appear to be?
I no longer care if you take your meds or try and get your life together, because I have lost all respect for you. You lie and attempt to manipulate what others say, in good faith, to defend whatever your issue du jour happens to be. I'm possibly one of the most tolerant and supportive people you will ever find and it takes an awful lot to repulse me. Jake, you repulse me by your words and deeds.
I don't expect any reasoned response from you, as you are unable to comprehend anything that does not fit into your world view. Your last few "pithy" comments to posters, merely displays your utter contempt for anyone who challenges your views. So stay whatever course you choose and if you remember, tell your family to let us know when you die, so your story can serve as a warning to others.
Joe
I gotta hand it to you Pastor Joe, few can lay down the Word like you can. :-*
Can I get an Amen, motherfuckers?
MtD
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Yup. What's it to you?
MtD
It made me feel better.
Miss P - I was thinking fellatio and/or fucking
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I gotta hand it to you Pastor Joe, few can lay down the Word like you can. :-*
Can I get an Amen, motherfuckers?
MtD
Amen, glory hallelujah!
And Amen to Skeebo as well.
Oh well.... I'm not losing any sleep.
This thread kept me up all night. This one and the one titled "Why Be a Memory" by Skippy, tweety, or whatever his name was.
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It made me feel better.
That is fine, chile.
It ain't down to Matty the Damned to judge what goes on in Leave it to Beaver Land.
MtD
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Jake this is for you, whatever you do please don't give up young man ;)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/denb45/image.jpg)
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This thread kept me up all night. This one and the one titled "Why Be a Memory" by Skippy, tweety, or whatever his name was.
I was up all night because of this dream I had, where I was required to do 8 loads of laundry in someone's basement in Manhattan and the floor was mud. Then when the clothes were washed but before they went in the dryer, I was instructed to move to another laundromat without getting any items dirty. Then during the move to the other place everything got lost because some friends appeared and we had to try and find a ramen shop, most likely by David Chang. So I woke up in a panic that all of my clothes were lost.
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I should add I also appreciate the fine words of Associate Pastor Skeeter.
8)
The Pulpit of Daddy Tim is in good hands.
Jake this is for you, whatever you do please don't give up young man ;)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/denb45/image.jpg)
Right back at ya, Den! :)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7993042/friendship.jpg)
MtD
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Rainbows and sunshine. It's so nice. And I don't say anything to any one I have asked to read this. I just hand my over my iPad and say read this and tell me what you think.
Saying we should disclose to sexual partners upsets YOU, then there's the problem
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Rainbows and sunshine. It's so nice. And I don't say anything to any one I have asked to read this. I just hand my over my iPad and say read this and tell me what you think.
The members of the Methodist Ladies' Auxiliary are down with iPads? Good for them! :)
Saying we should disclose to sexual partners upsets YOU, then there's the problem
The explosive diarrhoea always seems to happen before I manage to disclose, so go figger. :o
MtD
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Jake this is for you, whatever you do please don't give up young man ;)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/denb45/image.jpg)
Nobody is suggesting that Jake give up, but we all know that if he doesn't start to address reality, then he has already given up. I think it's great to encourage someone, but at what point does encouragement become enabling? Jake is unable, for whatever reasons, to come to grips with his reality and all we can do is offer the truth of what happens when you don't treat your infection. My concern for Jake is not that he has given up, but that he refuses to consider how difficult adjusting to being poz can be for some people. I believe we do a great disservice to members, when we offer nothing but empty messages of hope, without providing the means to make the real adjustment to being poz. Most of us know that being poz is not a spectator sport, nor can you "wish" the nasty HIV away.
We have all been where Jake is now. Nobody denies how hard it can be, but we do agree on the necessity of addressing your own issues, owning your infection and being responsible for how you live your life. Jake is stuck at the victim stage and I believe he is better served by the brutal truth, than feel good slogans. This isn't an issue of being insensitive to how he might feel, it's expressing concern about the ultimate cost of his denial. While supportive statements might make him feel better temporarily, only the truth will serve to keep him alive.
Joe
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Rainbows and sunshine. It's so nice. And I don't say anything to any one I have asked to read this. I just hand my over my iPad and say read this and tell me what you think.
Saying we should disclose to sexual partners upsets YOU, then there's the problem
Jake,
Are you serious? Your straw man argument has been addressed and answered. You don't get it, you really don't? We are not talking about disclosure issues, they have been addressed ad nausea m. We are talking about you and your tunnel vision regarding your infection. I can't believe you would show someone a snippet of this post and claim how terrible we are, based on one or two responses out of 100+.
You are acting like a child. Grow up already.
Joe
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So thanks to all the private messages. You guys don't even know how many I have received saying sorry, other members who feel uncomfortable to speak because of this mob mentality. You guys don't realize because of a select few others don't feel safe to speak up. Shame on you for creating this type of environment where others can't post and say or ask what they want. This is truly becoming a place of bulling and if you don't agree you will be persecuted. I refuse to play this tired ass game. To the others who feel intimidated your voice is just as strong as any one else's. Don't give them power to take your voice away. Remember it is the odd man out that makes real change. We should always disclose to all sexual partners. Do the right thing only because it's the right thing to do.
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There have been a few different topics brought up in this thread.
Jake, more concerning to me (and I am sure to ALL of the other people here) is your comment on deferring treatment. I hope you can get this worked out. Don't hurt yourself. It's not worth it.
You sound like someone who is still very hurt over how they became infected with HIV. I wish you had started this thread with the title of (MY CHEATING MOTHER FUCKING BOYFRIEND GAVE ME HIV). I think thats really what you wanted to say. Everyone here would have understood that and jumped right on board and offered you support. Change the title of this thread and start talking about what really the problem is.
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So thanks to all the private messages. You guys don't even know how many I have received saying sorry, other members who feel uncomfortable to speak because of this mob mentality. You guys don't realize because of a select few others don't feel safe to speak up. Shame on you for creating this type of environment where others can't post and say or ask what they want. This is truly becoming a place of bulling and if you don't agree you will be persecuted. I refuse to play this tired ass game. To the others who feel intimidated your voice is just as strong as any one else's. Don't give them power to take your voice away. Remember it is the odd man out that makes real change. We should always disclose to all sexual partners. Do the right thing only because it's the right thing to do.
I haven't pulled this one out in a while - but felt it was most appropriate:
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy8/phildinftlaudy/100px-Turner_Network_Television.png)
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So thanks to all the private messages.
LOL... Jeebus. Really? What are you, like 4 years old? This has been tried time and again, and by heads who were more hardcore than you.
Eventually it is always revealed that this supposed avalanche of supportive PMs never existed.
What's next? Your Swan Song Remix? In your case I'm sure that it will be an LMFAO version featuring Rebecca Black.
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So thanks to all the private messages. You guys don't even know how many I have received saying sorry, other members who feel uncomfortable to speak because of this mob mentality. You guys don't realize because of a select few others don't feel safe to speak up. Shame on you for creating this type of environment where others can't post and say or ask what they want. This is truly becoming a place of bulling and if you don't agree you will be persecuted. I refuse to play this tired ass game. To the others who feel intimidated your voice is just as strong as any one else's. Don't give them power to take your voice away. Remember it is the odd man out that makes real change. We should always disclose to all sexual partners. Do the right thing only because it's the right thing to do.
And you should disclose. Like I said earlier no one has said otherwise. And at the same time you should not bully other members who are looking for support concerning disclosure issues. They already admitted it was wrong, so King Jakey riding in on his moral high horse really wasn't necessary.
Get over yourself already...
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This thread is giving me extreme diarrhea, I've sat on the toilet seat and wiped my ass so many time, my ass is now chapped , you girls are gonna be the death of me ::)
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I hope Jake remembers all the private messages he got and never responded too offering support and advice because just like in this incident its something he wasn't ready to hear . When things get bad the support will be there again , just as it should be .
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You know moon you don't need to post if it bugs you. I know myself and a handful of others would be just fine with that
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You know moon you don't need to post if it bugs you. I know myself and a handful of others would be just fine with that
Troll. Ooh yeah, Jake. I'm gonna go slit my wrists cause you and some fictitious supporters don't like me. Boo fawking Hoo.
You choose to ignore what has been said to you regarding your failed views and opinions. Yet you keep trying to stir the pot.
You think you offend me or get me upset? Chile, please.
Again, get off your fucking high horse and grow a pair.
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If I know that I am positive, I would not have sex with anyone, especially intercourse, where I would have to inform the other individual. I would rather "do it" myself, and not have to worry about where this information is going to travel to when and if this person declines. Positive persons should not be discriminated against, but let's be realistic, there are people out there who simply will not hire a positive person and shun them. It is not something that I would want traveling around, especially in a small town. Giving someone oral, well the chance is next to nil of placing that person at risk. Me, I still wouldn't want to deal with it, but there are just some things in this world that should remain private, and health is certainly one of them.
http://timehasshownme.com
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So thanks to all the private messages. You guys don't even know how many I have received saying sorry, other members who feel uncomfortable to speak because of this mob mentality. You guys don't realize because of a select few others don't feel safe to speak up. Shame on you for creating this type of environment where others can't post and say or ask what they want. This is truly becoming a place of bulling and if you don't agree you will be persecuted. I refuse to play this tired ass game. To the others who feel intimidated your voice is just as strong as any one else's. Don't give them power to take your voice away. Remember it is the odd man out that makes real change. We should always disclose to all sexual partners. Do the right thing only because it's the right thing to do.
Wow, but thanks for those comments. The old "AIDSmeds Cabal" theory rears its ugly head. Just wow. Twisting words just to win the "most crazy poster" award. Congrats, you win. Nobody here can even come close to your level of deceit in facing these issues. You have proven yourself to be very ethically challenged. Sorry, I don't want to play your game any more. You win, you are right. Let me know how that knowledge will help to keep you alive... oh wait, it will not, but at least you will know you are right. Dead right.
Joe
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I hope Jake remembers all the private messages he got and never responded too offering support and advice because just like in this incident its something he wasn't ready to hear . When things get bad the support will be there again , just as it should be .
One from me, for example...to which I never heard a peep in response. Of course, this was way back when it was new and raw and understandable.
Now it's just kind of embarassing...especially when the OP declares he would readily steer people away from the BEST and most reliable HIV+ support network on the whole WWW just because his delicate sensibilities got frazzled by genuine and realistic advice.
That says a lot.
Actually, what it says most of all is that someone is still very attached to his identity as a victim.
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One from me, for example...to which I never heard a peep in response. Of course, this was way back when it was new and raw and understandable.
Now it's just kind of embarassing...especially when the OP declares he would readily steer people away from the BEST and most reliable HIV+ support network on the whole WWW just because his delicate sensibilities got frazzled by genuine and realistic advice.
That says a lot.
Actually, what it says most of all is that someone is still very attached to his identity as a victim.
Yep ... I was one of the people who was very concerned for him and never even got a weak thank you PM back for my trouble .
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Actually, what it says most of all is that someone is still very attached to his identity as a victim.
and with that, I believe the Fat Lady has sung.
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James I hear you. But of there is even a slight chance you haveing sex can expose someone to HIV, I personally feel you should tell that person. They have a right to know what they are being exposed too. And for the record it's not always bad. Bein a chef and having cuts from time to time I felt I needed to tell my employer. I was floored when they said your not the first and probably not the last. They have been great. 98% of my family are cool and all my friends have been great. It's not always a bad experience. Yes I realize I am lucky. Thank you above for that. It's such a freeing feeling not to have to hide. Your choice is your choice. But when it comes to sex espically we should always disclose
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One from me, for example...to which I never heard a peep in response. Of course, this was way back when it was new and raw and understandable.
Now it's just kind of embarassing...especially when the OP declares he would readily steer people away from the BEST and most reliable HIV+ support network on the whole WWW just because his delicate sensibilities got frazzled by genuine and realistic advice.
That says a lot.
Actually, what it says most of all is that someone is still very attached to his identity as a victim.
Well said Tim..
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I'm sorry I didn't reply to your pm. At that time I was so depressed and just isolated myself. Really I appogolize for not responding. I messed up.
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and with that, I believe the Fat Lady has sung.
AMEN BROTHER JOE
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/mzuch/fat_lady_bikini.jpg)
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Yep ... I was one of the people who was very concerned for him and never even got a weak thank you PM back for my trouble .
Jeff,
You were not the only one who offered support, but Jake isn't ready yet. Our support and understanding, no matter how brutal at times, is offensive to Jake, because he needs to hate poz folks. If we can show ourselves to be empathetic to his issues, it destroys his vision of pozzies as deranged, disease-spreading monsters. As a victim he needs a foil and we are it. If he considers, even for a moment, that we do understand and that we are more like him, the greater danger we represent to his world view. It's very hard for a victim to consider becoming his own tormentor. He's not a monster, so how can he be poz?
The issue is not that we are being mean or insensitive to him, it's that we refuse to feed his paranoia about his infection. We refuse to allow him to remain a victim and he cannot hear us because of his fear. This is not about any of us, only Jake.
Jake isn't ready for us yet. All we can hope is he comes back when he is ready and we'll be here waiting for him. We've all seen this movie before, let's just hope this one has a happy ending.
Joe
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What crock of shit. There is only one person I hate in my life. You guys are great at turnings things around. I am trying to be apart of the HIV community more and more. I want to see change. Disclosing is the first one on my agenda. Disclosure is the first step to help change things. Living in fear I will loose my job, my family will disown me, and so on only holds us back. I wasn't going to bring up full disclosure because just talking about sexual disclosure has just brought on so much negativity.
I'm not ashamed anymore and moving forward I will always advocate full disclosure. I will not let the actions of others determine my actions. Change starts with us. That's why I have put my picture and my full name on here. I talk it on my Facebook page. I talk about it with my coworkers, family, friends, and when the day comes that I do have sex again I have and will disclose to them as well.
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Jeff,
You were not the only one who offered support, but Jake isn't ready yet. Our support and understanding, no matter how brutal at times, is offensive to Jake, because he needs to hate poz folks. If we can show ourselves to be empathetic to his issues, it destroys his vision of pozzies as deranged, disease-spreading monsters. As a victim he needs a foil and we are it. If he considers, even for a moment, that we do understand and that we are more like him, the greater danger we represent to his world view. It's very hard for a victim to consider becoming his own tormentor. He's not a monster, so how can he be poz?
The issue is not that we are being mean or insensitive to him, it's that we refuse to feed his paranoia about his infection. We refuse to allow him to remain a victim and he cannot hear us because of his fear. This is not about any of us, only Jake.
Jake isn't ready for us yet. All we can hope is he comes back when he is ready and we'll be here waiting for him. We've all seen this movie before, let's just hope this one has a happy ending.
Joe
Thanks Joe ... I just want to point out that I am never offended when I don't hear back form someone after offering support , rather it only adds to the concern that prompted you to offer it in the first place .
Untreated HIV and internalized stigma is far more destructive than any tough love offered in this forum so I suggest that people who feel bullied read between the lines and see what the true meaning of support really is , your life may depend on it .
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What crock of shit. There is only one person I hate in my life. You guys are great at turnings things around. I am trying to be apart of the HIV community more and more. I want to see change. Disclosing is the first one on my agenda. Disclosure is the first step to help change things. Living in fear I will loose my job, my family will disown me, and so on only holds us back. I wasn't going to bring up full disclosure because just talking about sexual disclosure has just brought on so much negativity.
SO what, most of us in here has already been there & done all of this before ::)
and some of us have gotten over this tried old movie, when your ready THIS will
happened to you as well, don't fight the feeling baby, it's all good :D
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What crock of shit. There is only one person I hate in my life. You guys are great at turnings things around. I am trying to be apart of the HIV community more and more. I want to see change. Disclosing is the first one on my agenda. Disclosure is the first step to help change things. Living in fear I will loose my job, my family will disown me, and so on only holds us back. I wasn't going to bring up full disclosure because just talking about sexual disclosure has just brought on so much negativity.
I'm not ashamed anymore and moving forward I will always advocate full disclosure. I will not let the actions of others determine my actions. Change starts with us. That's why I have put my picture and my full name on here. I talk it on my Facebook page. I talk about it with my coworkers, family, friends, and when the day comes that I do have sex again I have and will disclose to them as well.
Key words: "crock of shit", "hate", "agenda", "fear", "negativity"
This thread has never been truly about disclosure, something that every member of these forums supports without question. It was YOU who turned it into something else.
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there is no chance because I won't do it.
on the topic of employment, I feel that it is great that your employers are so accepting on the issue. What city are you in? I lived for 5 years in rural Alabama. Had I been foolish enough to say that to my employer, they would have found a lame reason to hack me off the schedule within 24 hours. I would have been fired for the way I wear my hair, and I'm bald. You know, it is Alabama, ,they are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. In New Mexico, it is much more liberal, unless you go to someplace like Tuccumcair or Hobbs.
http://timehasshownme.com
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Den once again I hear you. On my path of HIV this where I currently am. I try to think of this as coming out. 20 years ago my concerns are not the concerns I have now and I know HIV is the same. The concerns I have now won't be the ones I have in another 20 years.
Really rev leave me alone. Just go away
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What crock of shit. There is only one person I hate in my life. You guys are great at turnings things around. I am trying to be apart of the HIV community more and more. I want to see change. Disclosing is the first one on my agenda. Disclosure is the first step to help change things. Living in fear I will loose my job, my family will disown me, and so on only holds us back. I wasn't going to bring up full disclosure because just talking about sexual disclosure has just brought on so much negativity.
I'm not ashamed anymore and moving forward I will always advocate full disclosure. I will not let the actions of others determine my actions. Change starts with us. That's why I have put my picture and my full name on here. I talk it on my Facebook page. I talk about it with my coworkers, family, friends, and when the day comes that I do have sex again I have and will disclose to them as well.
Jake
What a disappointing reply and this thread stopped being about disclosure dozens of posts before. I really hoped you would display a smattering of understanding at what has been shared with you. Yet all you can see is how disclosure is the bedrock of living with HIV. You don't have a clue and I fear for your safety. You are so blinded with your mono-replies about disclosure being some form of panacea, or penance that you refuse to consider anything else we suggest. Disclosure is the least of your worries, which you will discover, either on your own, or with the help of others.
I wish you the best. I wish I could help you understand how dangerous your thought patterns are and that you cannot approach living with HIV, without acknowledging the truth about the disease and its treatment. You were horribly wronged by your ex and that made you a victim. Being a victim can feel fine for a while, but ultimately it drains your being. The reason we stress your need to adjust to being poz, is that you don't seem to be adjusting. There is a common thread in all of your posts, that highlights your fears and anxiety about being poz. It's normal to feel that way, even healthy, but only to a point.
What folks here want you to understand is that we care what happens to you, but we do not seek to control you. Some of us have lived with HIV for longer than you have been alive and we know the cost that HIV can demand. We have learned the hard way that surviving with HIV is a marathon and slow and steady wins the race. We don't claim it's easy, nor for the faint of heart. We realize that each of us must find our own way, however we also know when someone is close to becoming their own worse enemy.
If nobody cared about you, we would not engage with you, which becomes especially trying, when you start to play the victim card. It's because we do understand and we have been where you are and we know that the only way to start truly living with HIV, is to begin with how you see yourself. You talk a good game, but your rhetoric rings hollow. You just keep stating the same bullet points, over and over and it's the written version of plugging your ears, while yelling "La, La, La, I can't hear you." That's why I say you are not ready yet to move past being a victim. Being a victim is easy, as you can deflect any personal responsibility for becoming poz, whereas becoming a survivor is hard, because it requires the absolute truth... about you.
Nobody is telling you how to live or what you should do. We are warning you, that if you refuse to address your own issues in regards to you being poz, you will never adjust to living with HIV. Never, ever, ever.
Do with that as you may.
Joe
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Den once again I hear you. On my path of HIV this where I currently am. I try to think of this as coming out. 20 years ago my concerns are not the concerns I have now and I know HIV is the same. The concerns I have now won't be the ones I have in another 20 years.
Really rev leave me alone. Just go away
I am in Greeley, co. Basically a farm town about a hour plus from Denver. Born and raised in crittenden KY. I moved to Denver roughly 2 years ago. 8 months living here I tested positive.
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I'm not ashamed anymore and moving forward I will always advocate full disclosure. I will not let the actions of others determine my actions. Change starts with us. That's why I have put my picture and my full name on here. I talk it on my Facebook page. I talk about it with my coworkers, family, friends, and when the day comes that I do have sex again I have and will disclose to them as well.
I'll always advocate for people to make informed decisions. There are many reasons that people can't fully disclose. I'm pretty certain my FB friends all probably know or can garner that information from my posts, but I've never updated my status to "In a relationship with AIDS". I've always used the "need to know" criteria for disclosure. It has nothing to do with being fearful or ashamed, just how I conduct myself with most of my personal business.
Wolfie
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Wolfie I get that sir and I'm not trying to judge. We each have to do what we have to do. There was just a story here about a hooker in Denver that was purposely going out to infect people. That is wrong. That is what I'm trying to say is wrong and only a monster would purpolsey do that. Once again purposely, with intent to hurt others.
We all have to handle disclosure the way we have to. I am begging people to just disclose with sexual partners.
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Wolfie I get that sir and I'm not trying to judge. We each have to do what we have to do. There was just a story here about a hooker in Denver that was purposely going out to infect people. That is wrong. That is what I'm trying to say is wrong and only a monster would purpolsey do that.
So was this SEX WORKER using condoms or foregoing them, you're not clear what the "article" says. Or in your judgement HIV+ people that use condoms and have undetectable viral loads should not be allowed to be sex workers. Ever. Anywhere in the world?
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Disclosure does little to combat the HIV epidemic. This disease spreads because people don't know and therefore discloser is moot. I'm sure there is some research out there, but I assume the majority of those infected contracted it from someone who did not know.
Testing would be a better option but the fear of criminalizing HIV+ people for having sex produces the polar opposite result. As was noted earlier, HIV issues are neither black nor white.
Wolfie
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She was arrested before for doing it. Then went back out, and beacause of wr anger she went back out and didn't use condoms. She did it to infect people on purpose. It's actions like that, that give hiv negative people the view we all are bad. Well that's not the case as we all know. I only called those people a monster. To go out with the intent to hurt others.
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We all have to handle disclosure the way we have to. I am begging people to just disclose with sexual partners.
Why? Read Wolfie's post above. No one here wants to transmit HIV to others, but that doesn't have anything to do with disclosure. If you want to disclose to the rest of the world you have HIV, we all support you (if you can take it), but don't impose your morals on others. You're doing this to feel better about yourself, to ascertain that you are right, not for the well-being of others.
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Here's what I do --
1. Disclose on my online profile(s). [Saves time!]
2. Don't disclose if anonymous, one-time fucking. [I'm a top, condoms work]
3. Don't disclose if someone wants to suck on my dick. [Don't have precum]
4. Don't disclose if I'm sucking on someone else's dick. [Can't infect them]
4. Disclose if people want my load in their mouth.
5. Disclose before any kind of date or poss relationship thing. [Test waters early]
Just putting out what I do. No judgments or shoulds for others.
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And really, someone having unprotected sex with a sex worker is asking for it... I mean, c'mon.
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Wow They deserve it. Those words will never come out of my mouth because no one deserves to be infected with HIV. You actually have me speechless. They deserve it. Wow.
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I am in. Basically a farm town about a hour plus from Denver. Born and raised in crittenden KY. I moved to Denver roughly 2 years ago. 8 months living here I tested positive.
And do I need to take a drive up to Greeley, Co, to give you a intervention? you know it's only about 260 miles for Albuquerque all the way up I-25..........
listen Jake, you are the master of your own destiny, if you don't remember anything else, PLEASE take this advice that were all trying to give you here young man,
I've had teh AIDS longer than you've probably been alive ( don't know how old you are) and I lot of us here are just trying to help you understand THIS, it aint rocket science...take this help for what it's worth, so you can move forward ;)
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I think it was because of his (her?) crack addiction perhaps:
http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-hiv-prostitute-111009,0,7442306.story
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2012/01/darren_garcia_hiv_positive_prostitute_new_arrest.php
I am sure all them married men who got knobbed off went home and told their wives straight out.
I personally do not give two figs what HIV-negative people with of me cos I am HIV-positive and I am OK with that and the responsibilities for my and others' safety it brings. The good AIDS/bad AIDS thing is thin line to walk along.
Except I do, sometimes, because the whole telling thing I find HIV-negative people sometimes view as highly tedious, including sometimes when they want a shag, they just want a shag, without an HIV discussion, with appropriate mutual protection, cos they are wise to the risks and want to behave accordingly not get into a a moral issue. I guess this is different for shag v partner.
- matt
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Wow They deserve it. Those words will never come out of my mouth because no one deserves to be infected with HIV. You actually have me speechless. They deserve it. Wow.
Where did you see the word "deserve"? God, you really ignore what people write.
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She did it to infect people on purpose. It's actions like that, that give hiv negative people the view we all are bad. Well that's not the case as we all know. I only called those people a monster. To go out with the intent to hurt others.
That has nothing to do with disclosure. You are combining two completely seperate issue.
1. Infecting people on purpose. I think everyone here can generally agree thats a bad thing.
2. Disclosing your HIV positive status to your friends, family, facebook people, and potential partners.
Surely, you can see how they are two seperate issues.
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Lm dude, I'm just keeping my distance from you.
Bug yes sir you are right. Huge difference. I started all this to say if you sleep with some one I personally feel we need to disclose. To sexual partners.
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Where did you see the word "deserve"? God, you really ignore what people write.
... yet he accuses everyone here of twisting his words around. Next thing you know you'll get lumped in with the Mean Girls.
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... yet he accuses everyone here of twisting his words around. Next thing you know you'll get lumped in with the Mean Girls.
Good, perhaps it means I fit in, huh?
PozJeepGuy, please do keep your distance or whatever. But learn how to read first. I just said what people have said since the beginning: getting HIV involves mutual responsibility. Someone who willingly accepts to have unprotected sex with a sex worker can't really play the role of "innocent victim".
And you don't "feel" we need to disclose. You dictate it. For everyone. That's the problem.
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OK, we are now entering Stanley Kubrick's "The Shining" alternate reality.
Jake, this was your post that started this thread:
I have to say I am stunned at the amount of disclosure questions. I get the hard part of it when it comes to dating and when and how to tell. What I don't get is why is there even a question about disclosing before you have sex. We all have a moral responsibility to tell any and all sexual partners. I got a lot of shit from people about being all high and mighty about the subject. We all ( for the most part) are here because someone didn't disclose to us. Do you really want to do this to some one else all in the sake of getting some. If you answered yes, well you have no morals and you make the rest of us look like monsters.
Bottom line folks, it is your responsibility to tell. You dont want to, well tuff shit. Do the right thing. The world will be a better place because you did. My mom always says god doesn't like ugly. I couldn't agree more with her.
And this is what you "now" say you said to start it all off.
Bug yes sir you are right. Huge difference. I started all this to say if you sleep with some one I personally feel we need to disclose. To sexual partners.
So which one is the "real" you? How intellectually dishonest can you be. More important, how stupid do you think the members really are?
Joe
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There's no mean girls in this forum, maybe a few of us queers that really give a dam, and some old timer daddies like me w/ tough-love advice , but no one is mean in this forum.........."say what" ;)
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Not going to be petty. I believe in full disclosure but that will never happen with a lot of people. But to disclose with a sexual partner is so important. I don't know what to believe after half this thread. Condoms work but what if it rips. Things happen. Disclosure with sexual partners only makes since.
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There's no mean girls in this forum, maybe a few of us queers that really give a dam, and some old timer daddies like me w/ tough-love advice , but no one is mean in this forum.........."say what" ;)
Dennis,
You are so right, no mean girls here.
BTW the AIDSmeds Cabal meeting has to be moved to Wednesday next week. 8)
Joe
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Dennis,
You are so right, no mean girls here.
BTW the AIDSmeds Cabal meeting has to be moved to Wednesday next week. 8)
Joe
I'll adjust my schedule big sister-Joe :-*
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But of there is even a slight chance you haveing sex can expose someone to HIV, I personally feel you should tell that person. They have a right to know what they are being exposed too.
although I feel that it's best to disclose before sex, even though some sex acts have much less risk of transmission than others, disclosure in itself if just a "crock of shit" or just a "bunch of words".
3 points about why disclosing is no big damn deal
1) Anyone sexually active should realize that along with all those other STDs out in the world, HIV is also out there. This is 2012 and f you don't protect yourself, then you're just plain stupid - and will probably end up with gonorrhea, HIV or pregnant.
2) Disclosing doesn't really do anything to stop transmission anyway. Most (if not all) people who have the fortitude to disclose probably weren't going to have unprotected sex anyway and most likely weren't going to do anything that transmitted HIV in the first place.
3) Since people lie, asking someone about their status, or expecting them to disclose their status, is stupid. Just because they say they're neg doesn't mean they are - because they may have never even been tested in the first place to really know. Right now probably half a million people are running around "thinking" they are negative, while in actuality they are positive.
While I believe that sexually active poz people should disclose their status, the only thing that will truly stop the spread of HIV is for all the NEGATIVE status people to take personal responsibility for their own health and to protect themselves from possible exposure. With the estimated large amount of people out there unaware of their HIV+ status, Knowing and keeping one's own negative status should be of THEIR main concern- instead of just their concern of getting laid.
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Leather great post. I do feel by disclosing you only protect yourself. If that great and powerful condom does breaks you were up front. The other person has full knowledge of what they are taking a chance on. Criminalization is there by void. The other person had all the facts before getting involved. But you didn't disclose does that give the other person a right to file a charge? By disclosing to sexual partners you have given the partner a choice. I would think it would mean more to know some one has the facts and still wants to shag. Thanks Matt I like that term.
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Not every sexual encounter requires a condom. Do we disclose for sexual encounters with no risk for HIV whatsoever?
Some people still believe that open-mouthed kissing is a risk.
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If there is even a slight risk I think you should. How would you feel if that sexual partner came back and said I am that one in a million that got it from precum. If you just state, I'm HIV positive are you ok with that. Then let the good times begin guilt free.
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Good, perhaps it means I fit in, huh?
Ooh, but you do, gurl. You do. You've probably caused good ol' Jakey a few more sleepless nights with your cold and insensitive twisting of his benevolent words and intentions.
Here's a one day pass to the mean girls clique. Keep up the good job and I'll try and convince Joe to send you an invite to the Cabal meeting.
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Do you think perhaps cultural norms and pleasure come into play? In my experience only the very nervous worry about oral sex, especially precum. HIV or none. There are limits to risk mitigation, and maybe avoiding the biggie (ie not screwing without condoms) and/or disclosure before screwing if it's gonna happen, are enough for people to get their head round?
Telling because you like a person has nothing to do with sex and risk. It's about telling the big things about your life you need people to know, as in being an undischarged banckrupt or Enron executive or that your faith is dear to you, and similar. << perhaps politcs and music taste come into this category, for athough trivial they are often deal breakers.
In the end, disclosure may be honest but it is not intriniscially protective (except where they bail over the coffee after you told em therefore no body contact).
Condoms and treatment are protective.
A number of non-poz guys have come on strong for condomless sex after I have told.... There are therefore situations to be prepared for (in this case you get to kick em out and then throw their clothes from the window after while shouting, it has flair, even if not exactly neighbourly)
- matt
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If there is even a slight risk I think you should. How would you feel if that sexual partner came back and said I am that one in a million that got it from precum. If you just state, I'm HIV positive are you ok with that. Then let the good times begin guilt free.
Following your logic, if there is a slight risk, the best course of action would be NOT HAVING SEX AT THE FIRST PLACE, that way you protect the other person from your infection (even though we don't know if that person will protect themselves the next time).
There are always risks in everything in life, and sex is not an exception. I would prefer to worry about a FBI raid in the motel room I was staying, that a safe box falls over me when I walk on the street or win the lottery than getting the aids from a small pre cum leak, or a condom break.
Maybe you'll walk guilt free when you disclose and both of you agree to not use condoms afterwards? I think that's worse than not disclosing but at least insist (and use) on condoms.
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Matt and raf great post.
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If there is even a slight risk I think you should. How would you feel if that sexual partner came back and said I am that one in a million that got it from precum. If you just state, I'm HIV positive are you ok with that. Then let the good times begin guilt free.
So open-mouthed kissing? Insertive oral? For our fairer sex, cunnilingus?
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I am still learning my self. My advise is if you think there is a risk you should disclose before doing what ever you do sexually
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You know jk in my short time being here I have learned people like newt, Ann, leather guy, hellraiser, and a few others give great advice.
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Ooh, but you do, gurl. You do. You've probably caused good ol' Jakey a few more sleepless nights with your cold and insensitive twisting of his benevolent words and intentions.
Here's a one day pass to the mean girls clique. Keep up the good job and I'll try and convince Joe to send you an invite to the Cabal meeting.
I feel honored. And naughty. ::)
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If there is even a slight risk I think you should. How would you feel if that sexual partner came back and said I am that one in a million that got it from precum. If you just state, I'm HIV positive are you ok with that. Then let the good times begin guilt free.
Actually no, in your case you'd also need to disclose that you're not on HAART and have a high viral load, then also explain why you're extra-specially infectious.
Just curious if you do this...
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Following your logic, if there is a slight risk, the best course of action would be NOT HAVING SEX AT THE FIRST PLACE, that way you protect the other person from your infection (even though we don't know if that person will protect themselves the next time).
Exactly. By Jake's logic he should actually be advocating only sero-sorting. But for some reason he isn't.
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And she throws another punch. Thanks again.
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Ah, I see. So this isn't about the substance or lack thereof in your arguments about disclosure.
Got it.
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So thanks to all the private messages. You guys don't even know how many I have received saying sorry, other members who feel uncomfortable to speak because of this mob mentality. You guys don't realize because of a select few others don't feel safe to speak up. Shame on you for creating this type of environment where others can't post and say or ask what they want. This is truly becoming a place of bulling and if you don't agree you will be persecuted. I refuse to play this tired ass game. To the others who feel intimidated your voice is just as strong as any one else's. Don't give them power to take your voice away. Remember it is the odd man out that makes real change. We should always disclose to all sexual partners. Do the right thing only because it's the right thing to do.
Of for Fuck sake -- NO ONE IS SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T DISCLOSE!! Open your fucking mind for a minute. What we are saying is that you are a judgemental prick. In the thread that started this, someone came on and said they had BB sex without disclosing and was eaten up with guilt. Instead of offering support for someone who said they made a mistake, you chose to go off on a rant, calling his action monstrous.
We are not the cold, bitter people -- YOU ARE. You can't even see where people DO agree with you, but not your judgements. You are so lost in your own self-hatred that all you can do is lash out at others.
As for others being afraid to speak up because of the "mob" -- you are the one perpetuating this thread. Remember when you said you were done -- about 200 posts ago. If they don't want to jump in, oh well. There are a number of folks on here I don't agree with very often, I don't give them enough power to silence me. Jeebus H. Christ, get over yourself and read the words typed and not your silly interpretation of them.
Mike
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Brain FOG, and this is what happens when you don't take your AVRs, oh and it's get even worse, trust me on this ::)
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Wow They deserve it. Those words will never come out of my mouth because no one deserves to be infected with HIV. You actually have me speechless. They deserve it. Wow.
How about replace "deserve" with "asking for it". Having sex with a condom is accepting the risk of getting an STD, including HIV. Whether with a "known" poz person or "unknown". Can't you see that you are responsible for your own self??
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Ah, I see. So this isn't about the substance or lack thereof in your arguments about disclosure.
Got it.
I thought you knew it was all about racking up enough brownie points to be invited to the party. You know how some people get when they're always on the outside looking in, never getting the message that they are insignificant, no matter what they do to try and fit in ::)
Yeah I took it there because I got sick of seeing divisive posts doling out bonuses to people who apparently are wiser than the entire collective who participate on these forums.
I mean give me a fucking break.
Every since you have been posting Jake and asking questions, people here have been nothing more than accommodating in trying to respond and alleviate your concerns as someone newly diagnosed. The outpouring of support has been over and beyond the call of duty, as everyone could've just said fuck it and let you deal with shit on your own. No one here is against you as you seem to think.
I really applaud Joe for trying as hard as he has in trying to get to understand and see what the rest of us see just based upon the overall content of your posts. Yes, we all understand that you have issues to sort out because shit happened and all of a sudden you found yourself a member of a "group" that you wish you hadn't. HIV is not exclusive.
And many of have been trying to sympathize as well as let you know that we agree with the majority of things you say -- but communication is an exchange between all parties involved, and sometimes you have to be willing to give a little, if you expect to get anything out of the deal.
I just don't understand why you are so hung up on this entire scenario of people deliberately infecting others when there have been numerous posts here from others (including myself) trying to explain to you that the number of people who actually do this is much smaller than you've convinced yourself to believe.
You really have to get over the fact that you are now poz, despite the fact that you were careful, your committed relationship wasn't as committed as you thought -- whatever the circumstances: it happened. The sooner you do that, you'll be able to toss this separationist "me vs. them" attitude that you seem to have, because it is clear that you haven't accepted that you are indeed poz, as I said 10,000 posts ago on this very same thread.
I think I'm gonna start hanging out in Am I at this rate... ::)
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/denb45/whore.jpg)
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i don't really see why an undetectable person that uses protection really would need to disclose. or a detectable person for that matter. its simple and has been stated a hundred times in this thread, use rubbers. and really the neg person should assume every person he/she has sex with is hiv poz and take the proper safe sex actions to protect themselves.
gotta protect yourself thats it. that is one advice i wished i used in my past but whatever.its done.
but again as far as disclosing I'm in the i don't think its necessary category.
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It's like bring in a gay retirement home
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It's like bring in a gay retirement home
Jake,
At least you could have the decency to respond and explain what views you either agree or disagree with, rather than your insulting dismissal of this forum. You really lack character, as shown when you got pushed a little and your "true colors" emerged.
I think this thread is done. The only hatred being displayed here is yours. There are some people who would actually appreciate a bunch of strangers on a forum, who care enough to challenge their thoughts and beliefs, especially when their own experience dictated they could do not less. Sadly, you are not one of those people.
Joe
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I'm hoping this thread does die down soon.... otherwise, it is quickly on course to beat out my "Dayuuuummm Syphilis" thread, which has nearly 11,000 views (I would like to thank all of the members who normally visit the "Am I" topic area, as well as all the guests who visit my thread because they think it will have some erotic pictures; I would also like to thank the person who didn't disclose all those many years ago, who started my whole syphilis saga - which led to me being able to even having such a widely viewed thread; and, I would be remiss if I did not take a bow myself for not being responsible enough to insist on a condom and catching teh AIDS which led me to discovering these forums and subsequently being able to have a place to go to talk about my syphilis saga)....... Oh, and I would like to thank all of the little people, the people I stepped on as I made my way to the top, all of the other threads that just didn't have the staying power that my "Dayuuummm Syphilis" thread had and continue to have.
I would also like to cordially invite anyone who hasn't visited my "Dayuuuumm Syphilis" thread to check it out. Your support is always appreciated.
Okay --- we now return to the "Disclosure blah blah blah" thread (don't worry, you didn't miss anything during this brief commercial interruption)... Thread resume ::yawn
Syphilis is so much more exciting ---- don't believe me? Check out my thread..... that name once again is "Dayuuuumm Syphilis."
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=38584.0
Edited to add link to Dayummm Syphilis thread --- what can I say, I'm shameless.... and humble 8)
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Joe I don't owe you nothing when you come at me like that
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I want visitors to the site and new people to read all this. This is what's in store for you when you join
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I want visitors to the site and new people to read all this. This is what's in store for you when you join
"Dayuuummmmm Syphilis" thread is still better.... check it out if you get a chance... and, when it persists, those fortunate unfortunate enough to get it not only get 3 rounds of cement butt shots, but sometimes, if the syphilis is real good, they get a lumbar puncture...... and sometimes..... wait for it.... the LP is followed by a severe post LP headache...
The whole deal makes for very interesting reading..... check out the thread:
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=38584.0
Don't wait for the movie!!!!
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I'm shutting this one down. Moderator reports are coming in at a steady clip and it looks as if all that really matters has been said -- repeatedly.