POZ Community Forums
HIV Prevention and Testing => Do I Have HIV? => Topic started by: UK-Mistake on January 24, 2007, 08:38:34 am
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I would just like an answer to a simple testing question if possible. I have had an HIV Proviral DNA/RNA test that has come back negative or non-reactive, not sure which, but either way it did not indicate HIV infection. Can anyone tell me if this was two seperate tests and in which case what is the difference between DNA and RNA or is this one test that looks for both.
Any help would be greatfully recieved.
Cheers.
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Please put all your questions and thoughts in your orginal thread. One thread per person.
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UK- You are conclusively negative. Take your own advice and move on with your life.
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The PCR is a highly sensitive test, so much so in fact that the problem sometimes is a false positive rather than ever a false negative.
You still seem to be caught up in "details," when you are in fact HIV negative. Period. End of story.
Take a breath and get on with your life, no kidding.
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Rapid, I apologise for not keeping to the one thread, it was lazy on my part not to look up the old one, or one of the old ones.
AC, you are right in that I should move on with my life, but I have made a reasoned decision to exclude myself from society, I no longer work or socialise and that is my choice which should be respected. I came here as a result of a broken condom and as such will always be terrfied or sex protected or not. So the alternative is a life of celebacy which is just plain unnatural and has lead to my disinterest in life.
Andy, thanks for your answer regarding the test being sensitive, I was aware that a PCR is a sensitive test, the problem that I am having is understanding if I had two tests or was it just the one. The test that I had was HIV Proviral DNA/RNA, I was under the impression that DNA was for viral load and RNA was more Qualitative. If anyone could shed light on this it would be greatly appreciated as this round of testing cost me a considerable amount of money. Not to mention the private Doctor that I have been seeing who has diagnosed me with Candida.
Any help regarding DNA/RNA would be great.
Cheers.
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If that is truly your state of mind then this forum is not what you need. You need the guidance of a mental health professional.
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AC, you are right in that I should move on with my life, but I have made a reasoned decision to exclude myself from society, I no longer work or socialise and that is my choice which should be respected. I came here as a result of a broken condom and as such will always be terrfied or sex protected or not. So the alternative is a life of celebacy which is just plain unnatural and has lead to my disinterest in life.
First, you are still conclusively negative.
Second, whatever your life choices are HIV is not among the factors affecting them. Move on with what ever life choices you want to make but do move past the HIV issue. If I were you I would seek a mental health professional as they can do a world of good.
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Sorry to bother the experts here again.
I have been working with my Dr to get to the root of my problems. The trouble is that the blood tests that I had run have raised alarm bells again regarding HIV.
Firstly my CD4 count is 600, which is on the low side, and secondly my lymphocyte count is 1.33 which is outside of the range which is in fact between 1.5 - 4.0.
Is it in the least bit plausible that these are indicative of an HIV infection that has not been picked up with the tests that I have had. Not wanting to bust everyones balls here with the repeated questions, but the PCR I had was for Group M (subtype a-h) and Group O. The fact is that there are more strains/subtypes out there and with those blood counts it has left me still questioning. What is more the nurse when she saw my tongue said that is a classic sign of HIV infection.
Cheers.
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It was both incorrect and irresponsible of the nurse to call anything about your tongue "a classic sign of HIV." The fact is that many symptoms are shared by those who are HIV positive as well as HIV negative.
The ONLY way to know HIV status accurately is with an HIV test. You've done that and tested negative. You ARE HIV negative despite your fears and any symptoms you are having.
You're also (mis)interpreting everyting through an HIV jitters mindset. You CD count is yet another way to NOT correctly evaluate your status. Those numbers can rise and fall for any number of reasons unrelated to HIV.
We're not going to tell you anything differently than we have already. All this obsessing about subtypes and such is irrelevant.
You're trying to make yourself into some special and exceptional case and you're not.
I repeat, ONLY an HIV test result can tell you about your HIV status accurately. If you're going to continue drag this issue along then get tested again with a standard test and collect the inevitable negative result. Maybe that will help you to let go of this.
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Andy,
thanks for the reply. You are right about the nurse and being irresponsible. Two and a half years ago I would have listened to what she said and taken it as absolute, but having been here reading these forums I am aware that symptoms are non-specific so I took her comment with a pinch of salt.
You are right about CD counts changing regularly. It is just annoying that it is so low otherwise I would just put this behind me. I know that it is fanciful to think of rare subtypes, but I am at my wits end working with the Dr and not coming up with anything conclusive.
Cheers.
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Sorry to bother the experts here again.
I have been working with my Dr to get to the root of my problems. The trouble is that the blood tests that I had run have raised alarm bells again regarding HIV.
Firstly my CD4 count is 600, which is on the low side, and secondly my lymphocyte count is 1.33 which is outside of the range which is in fact between 1.5 - 4.0.
Is it in the least bit plausible that these are indicative of an HIV infection that has not been picked up with the tests that I have had. Not wanting to bust everyones balls here with the repeated questions, but the PCR I had was for Group M (subtype a-h) and Group O. The fact is that there are more strains/subtypes out there and with those blood counts it has left me still questioning. What is more the nurse when she saw my tongue said that is a classic sign of HIV infection.
Cheers.
The only thing all of us people with HIV have in common is a positive HIV test. I don't care what your tongue looks like, if you test conclusively negative, you are negative. As for your CD4 count, that still doesn't tell--many people naturally have counts on the lower end of normal and the lymphocyte count wasn't even statistically significant for being low. I won't get into a statistics discussion, but your results are not worrisome. You do not have HIV and the more tests you have, they will still be negative.
On a side note, they already told you about keeping it in one post and I'm sure eventually someone will merge them, but an easy way to find your thread is to click on the 'show own posts' choice under your name in the upper left corner of the screen.
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PS I am not merging your threads here because sometimes I think it becomes more confusing when that is done.
Just don't start anymore new threads.
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Just wondering if I could get some feedback. I have recently had a lymph subset taken and now have a CD4% of 37, this is considerably lower than the CD4% that I had last time, six months ago which was at 46.2. I note that a lot of people in the living with forum put a lot of emphasis on the CD4% as an indicator of progression.
Could anyone explain why there is such a drop, is this normal in an HIV negative individual given that there is so much emphasis on this needing to remain stable?
Secondly, my CD4 count has stayed the same at 610. I know this is on the low side but it has remained the same which is pleasing. How is it the same when my % has changed? Would it be possible if I was infected to have a CD4 count of 610 when I am now three years post exposure?
Cheers.
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Your CD4 and % are within the normal range. You can take a blood draw at two different time within the same day and have a complete set of different numbers. You don't have HIV and this is an HIV website.
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Rodney,
Thanks for the reply. I realise that the numbers are within normal range, but what bothers me is that they are continuing to drop. I did actually have them taken at the same time and place just to try and remain consistent.
Secondly I was wondering if someone was HIV positive for three years if they would maintain a CD4 of 600. I know that I have had numerous negative tests, but at the same time I have done a lot of reading over the past three years about recombinant strains of the virus and the fact that these may not be detectable on a molecular basis and possibly not in terms of an antibody EIA. I know that everyone will think that it is fanciful to suggest that I could have come into contact with such a strain, but the fact is here in the UK there are many infections occurnig outside of the UK and being brought back into the country. And here where I live we have a massive cultural diversity.
Cheers.
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I maintained a CD4 count in the 1400s for 21 years. I was a LTNP, but I knew I was HIV+ and confirmed in 1984. You on the other hand are conclusively negative and you have your test results to prove it.
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You are trying to use this site for medical evaluations. That's not our mission. We deal strictly with HIV. And you are HIV negative. Period. End of that story.
Whatever your various concerns are -- they are something you should discussing with your doctor.
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I have recently had another set of bloodwork taken at the same time as the previous two sets and with the same place to avoid any disparity. The latest numbers are CD4 790 at 41% with a WBC of 7.4. This is a marked improvement over the previous two CD4 counts. I was just wondering if it is normal in an HIV negative person to have such fluctuating numbers. With this above average CD4 count I am well on the way to believing that I do not have HIV and have felt a huge reilef for the first time in over three years and am starting to come to terms with the idea that maybe I have waisted a large part of my life.
At the same time I also had an instant HIV test that uses blood taken via a pin prick and gives the result in one minute. Is this a reliable form of test? With the negative in this and with the CD4 I am feeling pretty confident. Could someone infected with a rare strain have numbers that have risen back up like mine?
I want to believe that I am OK, but for the constant fungal stuff that has been happening ever since exposure. So far I can keep it at bay to an extent, but it is progressive. Would someone who was positive and had a CD4 of 790 get this fungal stuff occurring?
Any opinions would be appreciated.
Cheers.
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Forget about CD counts and WBC and any of the other stuff you're still throwing into the mix.
The ONLY way to know your HIV status is by getting tested at 13 weeks or more after a risky incident. You've done that and you have reliably tested negative. You ARE HIV negative. End of story. And yes, the pinprick is a reliable test.
You're negative. Get on with your life. If you are having physical symptoms that's something for to sort out with your doctor. This is NOT an HIV situation. Period. ryouprob
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Cheers Andy,
Thanks for your patience. I have been to my doctor on many occassions over the last three years and he just keeps re-iterating that these kind of fungal infections are quite common among both seronegative and seropositive individuals. I obviously have to just let it go, but the fact that it is starring back at me in the mirror is why I return to this worry time after time, and the fact that I never had these pre-exposure. I still don't understand why I now have 790 CD4 cells which is a marked increase, I guess that it is just a seasonal variation.
Thanks.
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That's a long time to be burdened with this unwarranted fear. How about going to see a therapist or other such professional and talking out what's going on. Life is way to short in the best of scenarios and you don't want to spend it worrying needlessly as you are doing.
No matter what your mind may tell you, this is not an HIV situation. Get yourself some help with sorting out the emotional aspects of this situation is my suggestion.
Cheers,
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UK,
Stop fretting about your CD4 results. CD4 counts can vary by hundreds during the course of the same day. That goes for both hiv positive and hiv negative individuals. Anything above 500 is considered to be in the normal range.
As for your fungal problems, sometimes they can be diet related. Maybe it's time you went to see a qualified nutritionist to find out if some changes to your diet might help you get rid of it.
Whatever is going on with you, we can safely say it has nothing to do with hiv. You ARE hiv negative.
Ann
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In January of this year I had another CD count and it was 650 at 36%. This is considerably lower than it was in September of last year. In view of that I had another CD taken in June of this year and it was practically the same, at 634 and 36%. Is this a real decrease in health from my test in September last year.
I appreciate this might be getting tired now. It is four years since my exposure. I have had enough of doctors visists for fungal stuff. I am not psychologically affected by any of this and it is not in my mind. When I first came here I was scared, now I don't care, but would like to get to the bottom of this. If I was infected with a non-B subtype, would my numbers over the last four years be indicative of progression. The problem with the latest set of results is that the CD8 has gone down considerably and now my CD3 percentage is well below the range as a result.
Is a massive drop in CD8 a bad thing for HIV positive people, or is the fact that I have a high ratio of 1.88 for CD4/CD8 promising.
If I was positive how long would it be for my numbers to decline to the stage where I would be nearing the end.
Sorry for the constant questions, but there really is no help here in the UK. I have lived a life of celebacy for four years now. Can't ever see that changing, but my doctor had the audacity to tell me not to let this worry me and I should have unprotected sex, get involved in dating, nothing to worry about. So as you can see, in the UK, as a heterosexual male I am really pissing into the wind trying to get any sense out of anyone.
Cheers
L.
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L,
Your CD4 count is well within the normal range. Your CD4 count will never, ever reveal your hiv status - ONLY an hiv test will. You are conclusively hiv negative. You do not have hiv. Work with your doctor to find out what, if anythng, is wrong with you. Whatever it is, it is NOT hiv. You do not have hiv.
You will not be permitted to use this forum to go on and on about your CD4 counts and/or fungal infections when you do not have hiv.
Ann
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With continuing fungal infections, skin issues and cognitive impairment and an inability to spell or communicate along with still declining CD counts I decided to be pro-active. I decided to head to Thailand where I could purchase generic drugs. I know I will get slated for that one. I was planning on maybe living there for the rest of my life, but can't stomach the place and it is not practical to keep bringing drugs back to the UK.
Whilst there I met a woman who I told about my predicament, we were in a bar, but it is obvious that she is a street hooker. She stayed with me the whole two weeks. I did not want to put her at risk, although I know everyone here will say I have no HIV. So I did not ejaculate in her. But I did not use a condom with her for two weeks of having intercourse almost everyday. This was the first two weeks of October, and after almost five and a half years of celebacy, some much needed release.
I know that in Thailand in particular it is a homogeneous pandemic and that almost 100 percent of infections are subytpe A/E. I also know that ELISAS are 100 percent accruate at picking this subype up. I was just wondering if I was already infected with a subtype, would the exposure to A/E then cause my body to produce antibodies to A/E, which would then be picked up and allow me the treatment that I want here in the UK?
I am not so much talking about superinfection, but maybe concurrent.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
L.
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L,
It doesn't matter that you didn't ejaculate in her, you were still putting yourself at risk for hiv infection. You need to test for hiv at the three month point following your last unprotected encounter. Maybe then you'll finally get your wish of testing positive.
I think you need to get yourself to a therapist asap to find out why you never accepted your negative status and deliberately put yourself at risk.
And if you were hiv positive before going to Thailand (which you WERE NOT), you would have been putting this woman at risk even without ejaculating insider her. Pre-cum is also infectious. You believed yourself to be hiv positive and you did something that would have put her at risk. You've got some serious issues with your thinking processes.
And you know what else? With CD4 counts like yours, even if you WERE hiv positive, you would not be given hiv meds in the UK. Your CD4 counts are in normal ranges where no treatment is indicated.
You need help that is far outside the scope of this forum. Please seek it out.
Ann
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Hi Annn
Thanks for the response. My CD counts have decreased further. The last one about two months ago was at about 370 absolute and a percentage of 28.
As for putting the girl at risk, I am aware that pre-cum is infectious. And I know it would be unconscionable to put someone at risk. So I specifically told her my problem and that I believed that I was infected. Her English was very good, she understood, and was coy about her status, I took that to mean that she was infected. Also I was not taking advantage of the power inbalance in wealth and her needing money, because I did not pay her. In fact she paid for me most of the time in BKK because she wanted me to see the sights, and I came with limited funds. So it was not a client/hooker relationship, more friends.
As for psychiatric help, my psychiatrist says that heterosexuals don't get HIV, so no point in talking to him. My psyical appearance has deteriorated now. Not that I was vain, but it gets comments. I now work as a nightwathcman, despite the fact I have two first class degrees, but that is my choice as I avoid endlessly having to explain my appearnce. Unbeliveable, I would never challange anyone about their looks. I guess, just a lot of rude people in society.
My dentist is shocked. years of great teeth and now he says my immune system is not working properly and gums have receded to the point that I will need a large percent extracted. More looking weird, lol. And yes I am brushing same as before and following all his advice.
It is the mental block that gets me most though. I came from a poor background and managed to get two first class degrees whilst working full time nights. So I havent always been a moron. I know everyone has a must live at all cost attitude, but I feel I have achieved anyway, and cant' go on to do anything else now, so I'm happy for an end.
If I get a poz result and treatment, then maybe it will knock off the vl, and maybe if there is vl from another subtype it will knock that off. when I frist came here there were no studies on non b, subtype. snice ARV rollout in third world there is much data and better understanding. In fact the pol gene is so conserved and limited to how much it can mutate before it can't work that drugs seem effective on most drug naive people with different subtypes, unless they caugh a virus from prior treatment.
Basically I have nothing to lose. I could be right, or wrong. If right, I will get all the problems that come with ARV's, or might be lucky like some forum members and be storing problems for 10 years. time. If I am wrong, then it is a more progressive death. plus dignitas inform me that they will put me down if I have a verifiable illness.
I am not saying this is ideal and not my first choice of a ilfe, but it is what it is. If I had my way there would not be a massive non-human primate reservoir or viruses and I would not have been born in the decade that I was having to deal with this. I am not derodding anyghing any possiitve people have gone through, but that is my take.
I am perfectly rational, and not a spoilt individual, I can appreciate that even now I have more than 95 percent of the world.
So that's it really, just wanted to make clear that I would not put a girl at risk. It was my considered opinion that if she does that often in such a high risk country then she would be pos anyway. And to be honest I could not live the life I had of celebacy.
Cheers
L.
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Ann,
What do you think of my CD count, 370 and 28 percent? I am sure you will say that it is because I am mental that it is so low, but know, this is it.
What a nightmare, eh. No diagnosis and here I am suppresed immune system. I never thought that I would want to be poz, but frankly I would take a diagnosis of boring subtype B and a sensitive to everything geneotype anyday over this limbo land of not knowing why on earth I am progressing to a premature death.
10 years ago I was a two time ABA finalist, and now I feel like I'm 55 years old. No one will tell me that this is normal, becaues it aint. You don't go from perfectly fit to looking and feeling a wreck.
Cheers
L.
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Andy, do you have any input on the CD count?
cheers
L.
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L,
You do not have a suppressed immune system. A suppressed immune system is below 200 and/or 12%
If you insist on going on about this, you're going to be given a time out. You didn't have hiv when you went to Thailand - although after having unprotected intercourse with someone of unknown status, you might have it now. You'll just have to wait and test.
Instead of getting CD4 counts done - which will tell you NOTHING about your hiv status - why don't you work with your doctor to find out what, if anything, is actually wrong with you. It certainly wasn't hiv before you went to Thailand and put yourself at risk. I can't believe you acted in such a stupid and irresponsible manner. I really can't.
If you post about symptoms or CD4 counts one more time before you get your conclusive hiv ANTIBODY test, you WILL be given a time out. Enough is enough already.
PLEASE CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED!
Ann
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L,
I have removed your PM privileges. You've been here long enough to know that PMing positive members to ask questions is not allowed.
Ann
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Hi Annn
I was wondering if my PM privileges will be restored ever, or is that a permenant ban. I now appreciate that a subordinate like myself should not be bothering anyone with a positive diagnosis. I honestly was not aware of that being an infringement because I had exchanged pm's in the past socially with some members who were positive.
Cheers.
L.
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Nope.
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Annn
In the event that I ever test positive will I then be re-instated with full pm privileges? Just asking because it would then seem a moot point that I had the audacity to darken the inbox of a genunie poz person whilst I am still considered negative.
Thanks.
L.
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How about you stay with life as it is today instead of asking for privilege that may never be needed. Right now you are not HIV positive.
Hopefully you're going to stay that way.
Meantime you have no need of being able to PM when you have already demonstrated you don't know how to use that privilege responsibly.
Good luck with your test.
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In the event that I ever test positive will I then be re-instated with full pm privileges?
What, are you going to become infected just so you can PM people here? Even if you do, the answer is NO. Get a grip already. Grow up and use condoms. This isn't a social networking site. Go join Face Book and leave us alone. OK? If you don't like how we run things here, there's a whole internet out there for you to explore.
Ann
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Cleary Annn I am not wanting to be infected and certainly not so that I can use a PM facility. If I had my way there would be no form of immunodeficiency virus in the world, be it human or simian. But that is the world we face. I've no desire to be a part of any form of social network, this isn't about loneliness or the need to reach out to others. I am not questioning the way that you run things here. You must remember I have been a member for almost six years. When I frist joined the rules were not as stringent as they are now, so I thought nothing of sending a pm to others. Oh, and I intend on condom usage in the future, but it was a split condom that brought me here in the first place, so there are no guarantees of one's serostatus. Anyway thanks so much for all your past help, and I mean that sincerely.
L.
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Fucked up big time even by my standard about 10 weeks ago and used someone elses works, in a drink and drug fueled night of hedonism. Two weeks after I had a sore throat for 10 days and then swollen glands in my groin, still there.
Got a 9 weeks blood draw and collected the results today as negative. The GUM want me to come back to them at 12 weeks.
Just one question about the 9 weeks blood draw. On that day last week I had been in the gym in the morning, did two hours of heavy weights and then one hour of running. Then had a two hour walk in the afternoon on my way to the GUM. It was a rarity on that day in the UK, being that it was hot, about 21 degrees.
Took two nurses to draw my blood and about 4 attempts. Nurse said I had thick blood. Would that cause a false negative? If not is 9 weeks quite hopeful?
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Just need to clarify, the nurse said that I had thick blood due to dehydration. She seemed to think that was the issue regarding not getting a draw of blood easily.
Cheers.
L.
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Fucked up big time even by my standard about 10 weeks ago and used someone elses works, in a drink and drug fueled night of hedonism. Two weeks after I had a sore throat for 10 days and then swollen glands in my groin, still there.
Got a 9 weeks blood draw and collected the results today as negative. The GUM want me to come back to them at 12 weeks.
Just one question about the 9 weeks blood draw. On that day last week I had been in the gym in the morning, did two hours of heavy weights and then one hour of running. Then had a two hour walk in the afternoon on my way to the GUM. It was a rarity on that day in the UK, being that it was hot, about 21 degrees.
Took two nurses to draw my blood and about 4 attempts. Nurse said I had thick blood. Would that cause a false negative? If not is 9 weeks quite hopeful?
No thick blood would not affect your test results.
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Those details you're throwing into the mix are irrelevant. Protracted intravenous drug use can extend the testing period. But if this was a one-time only event then 13 weeks would be sufficient for a conclusive negative result.
A negative result at 9 weeks more than a little encouraging. You will almost certainly test negative at 13 weeks.
But you do need to stop playing russian roulette with your life and your health. Cut out this unsafe stuff, fella. I know of too many unhappy endings to that story.
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Cheers guys for your patience.
L
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ok
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L,
You may want to read a recent thread concerning needle sharing. click here (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=37256.0) There's information there you should know - and it saves me from having to type it all out again. :)
Please do NOT post in that thread. If you have any questions regarding something you read there, make sure you come back into THIS thread to ask them. Thank you for your cooperation where this is concerned.
Ann
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Thanks for that info Ann.
Just one more quick question. At my GUM they use third generation tests. I know that many say that fourth are great for early detection. But at 9 weeks is the 3rd generation as accurate as the 4th generation at this point?
Thanks for any responses.
L.
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Yes, at 9 and again at 12/13 weeks all generations of tests would be equally accurate.
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Got another negative, it was done at a few hours short of 12 weeks at my local GUM. I guess that I can take that as conclusive.
Thanks for all the help.
L.
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UK,
Your results are not going to change in a matter of hours at this point in the game. You are conclusively hiv negative.
Protect your negative status from here on out. Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently and do not share works with anyone and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!
Ann
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Hello,
I have a quick testing question. It is fortunately not for myself but for a female friend of mine who uses IV drugs. I talked her into testing after my stupid behaviour and she got a positive ELISA. This was from the first blood sample. She says she hasn't shares works and has no risk factor and thinks it could be a false positive and has refused to go back. I am not privy to the conversation she has had with the GUM.
My question is would the GUM run the WB on the same sample, or require her to go back in? And if it was just the ELISA that was postive and then the WB negative would they have bothered telling her it was positive. It seems that it would just induce angst to do that without a clear positive WB.
If she has not had a WB and has one which is negative, then is that conclusive, i.e. trumping the ELISA?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
L
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L,
I don't know how they do things at your GUM, but I had to go back the next day after my initial positive result and have more blood drawn, from which they did another ELISA plus a Western Blot. They did tell me about the initial positive result, but they also told me that because every single band on the ELISA was reactive, the second ELISA plus the Western Blot was more a formality than anything. And they were right - every band on the WB was reactive too. This was ten years ago, so it may be more stream-lined now and not every GUM clinic will follow exactly the same testing protocols.
Just because your friend hasn't shared works doesn't necessarily mean she has not been at risk. If she has ever had unprotected intercourse with anyone who she could not be 100% sure was hiv negative, then she has been at risk.
Also, I know what it's like to be an injecting drug user and if she has ever used in the presence of others, then she can't really be 100% sure she never used someone else's works or if someone else used her works. She should also test for hep C as hep C is MUCH more infectious than hiv and she could have been infected with hep C simply by using someone else's tie-off, spoon, water source or filter.
Please urge your friend to go in for follow-up testing. If she actually is hiv positive, she won't be doing herself any favours by ignoring it. She'll end up deathly ill in hospital one day - and she may not even have any prior warning of how ill she is. It's not uncommon for people with unmonitored, untreated hiv to go from feeling fine one day to lying in a hospital bed the next.
Please explain to her that having hiv in 2011 is nothing like having it in 1991 - the treatments today are very good and she could live a long, healthy, productive life - but only if she is paying attention to her virus and treating it when necessary. She can even have children. The only thing ignoring it will bring to her is serious illness resulting in death. It's as stark, dark and simple as that.
Ann
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Thank you so much Ann for such a considered response, and sharing your experience of IV drug use. I hope you don’t mind but I cut, pasted and then printed out the text of your response and gave it to my said friend tonight. I then gave her numerous internet links and told her to get to an internet café (she has no internet) over the weekend and do some reading.
My parting words on the matter were that I am willing to take Monday off of work and drive her to the GUM walk in first thing on Monday morning. I told her to text me if she wants to take me up on the offer.
I think that is the best that I can do for her now without coming across as some sort of HIV police and interfering friend. I thought I was through with this HIV stuff and now this. On a side note a best friends neighbour who is also a casual acquaintance was diagnosed not so long ago and is quite open about her status. She is not a drug user, but just a standard heterosexual, living a normal, dull life in suburbia. Somewhat of an eye opener all this.
Anyway cheers for the advice, I think that it might just persuade her to pay this the attention that it deserves.
L
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L,
My injecting drug use days are far, far behind me. I haven't used since well before my 24 year old daughter was born. While I did end up with hep C (now cured) from those days, I got hiv the old fashioned way in '97. I too am what you might consider to be a "standard heterosexual, living a normal, dull life in suburbia". Hell, I live in the Isle of Man and I got my virus here from someone who was born Manx. (I'm originally from the States) Hiv is everywhere, not just in the gay community or in Africa.
And remember, all you need to do is use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse (and don't share works) and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!!!
I don't mind that you shared what I wrote with your friend - in fact I'm glad you did. Hiv is nothing to mess around with. If she did actually have a false positive result, she needs to know so she can protect herself in future. Same thing if she is positive. She needs to protect herself and her health in future by monitoring her virus and going on treatment when it is needed. But you're also right - you've done what you can and the ball is now in her court. I hope she takes you up on your offer to go to the GUM with her.
Ann
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Quick question, I think I know that the answer is no risk, especially after 8 years here, but thought I would check. Currently in Thailand in Phuket on a scuba holiday. Made a promise to myself that I would not indulge in any gogo type behaviour, as I like to live a life of celebacy.
Just sat in a gogo drinking a few beers and a dancer takes my new bottle and rubs and part inserts it into herself. It was a new bottle to I just drank from it thinking now problem. Is this definatley no risk. Another one sat on my lap naked and when I pushed her off she tried to kiss me and put her chewing gum in my mouth. I assume that is also no risk.
Cheers L.
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L,
You assume correctly. Nothing that went down in the gogo was a risk for hiv infection.
I've said it to you before and I'll say it again:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse (and don't share works), correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!!!
You can have all the sex you want while you're in Thailand (or anywhere), just make sure you're using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse. Read through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use them correctly. The first link is particularly informative.
Hmph. Thailand. Lucky you!
Ann
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Just on my annual Trip to the mecca of Thai boxing. To reward myself for winning several bouts I proceeded to accept the services of the hotel massage girl. She caught me off guard and started giving me unprotected oral. No risk there I know.
However I really fucked up, and she ask me to have anal sex with her, but there was no condom in sight. After about one minute I came to my senses. That was Thursday night. About 12 hours later I started a cocktail of Truvada and Stocric (Susitiva). Been on that two days now.
Today I took her for HIV testing and she was negative on the fourth generation testing. Should I continue with the PEP.
Thanks again for your time and commitment.
L
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Someone else's negative test result should never the basis on which you decide your own HIV status. It's YOUR test result that matters.
You did have a risk albeit a relatively low one. It was a single incident and of relatively low duration. And it is significantly more difficult to transmit from woman to man than the other way around. Taking that all into consideration I would say that even without PEP the odds are you will test negative.
But whether to continue with PEP or not is up to you. Low risk is not the same as no risk. Most importantly you have to learn from this experience and always without exception use a condom for vaginal and anal intercourse. No exceptions.
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I hear you Andy. I am just thinking that as her result is negative then it is likely that she would have had to have been infected in the last three or four weeks and therefore I am hoping that she is definitively negative. Just wondering if PEP was overkill.
Cheers.
L
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UK,
For insertive intercourse, PEP is overkill regardless of her test results. It's up to you whether or not you continue taking it.
Ann
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Thanks Ann, that's what I thought. A negative test result for her. I think that I will give the rest of the PEP a miss.
Cheers again.
L
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Because here in the land of smiles nothing is ever done correctly, I am wondering about my PEP regime. I have decided to continue the course. So went to get another 25 days worth.
The first three days worth were once a day of truvada and stocrin, one tablet each.
Today the doctor gave me the remaining 25 days, but there are 50 truvada, and the instrutions every 12 hours, but stocrin once a day. Is that a mistake.
Do truvada do two sizes?
Cheers in advance.
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Mistake,
Yes, it is a mistake. Truvada (https://www.poz.com/drug/truvada) (tenofovir + emtricitabine) is only ever taken once a day and there is only one "size".
On the other hand... make sure you've not been given a generic version of Combivir (https://www.poz.com/drug/combivir). Combivir (zidovudine + lamivudine) must be taken twice a day. The individual drugs should be on the label somewhere, so check.
If you have been given Combivir instead of Truvada, don't worry about it - just take it twice a day as instructed. It's every bit as effective as Truvada, it's just more inconvenient with the twice a day dosing.
It is recommended that you only take the Stocrin (https://www.poz.com/drug/sustiva) (aka Sustiva, aka efavirenz) right before bed - and at least two hours after a meal to decrease the side-effects. You should also avoid a high-fat meal before taking Stocrin.
If you have indeed been given twice as much Truvada as you need, take the extras to a local ASO (aids service organisation) - I'm sure they'd appreciate having them. You can find an ASO near you over at the worldwide ASO database at aidsmap.com (http://www.aidsmap.com/e-atlas).
You really don't need PEP, but good luck anyway.
Ann
edited to fix broken linky
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L,
I've just been re-reading your entire thread. (I know, I need to get a life.) You go to Thailand every year and you should have realised by now that you need to take a load of condoms with you when you go.
My partner sometimes goes to Thailand with a mate of his and I always buy the condoms myself (or get them from the clinic) and make sure they go in his bag. (Yes, he does what he does over there with my blessings - provided he's using the condoms I pack for him. I know he treats the women with respect and that's my only concern outside condom usage.)
Condoms can sometimes be difficult to find abroad and in Asian countries, they can often be too small for European men. Take your own and always keep a few with you at all times, just in case.
You really need to wise up when it comes to condoms. OK?
Ann
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Thanks Ann, I thought that it was a mistake. It is definately Truvada. So I will just take the one a day and donate the rest.
I don't bring condoms because I have no intention of having sex. I know you say they are safe, and to a point yes, but there is always that tiny chance of breakage that got me here eight years ago. That and the fact that regardless of what brand I use I can't feel nothing so it seems a pointless excercise having sex at all.
No feeling plus a small chance, even miniscule, what is the point. There is a small chance of getting run over crossing the road, but I don't do it unless there is something in it for me.
It's all academic anyway, I come here for Thai boxing, but when I get back to the UK I have an impending criminal trial, and I am looking at a five stretch. It is funny because I know everyone will say that HIV is not my problem, but the last eight years of near celebacy, plus angst, plus frustration has turned my mild mannered nature the opposite direction. I have tried dealing with my anger by taking part in MMA and Muay Thai but it hasn't worked. And now I have beaten an abusive drunken prick half to death when ordinarily I would have walked away, and that is because I am just pissed off the whole time.
Thankfully I am still young and maybe within the next 20 years there will be a solution, I have kept more than up to date on the research front.
Good of you to let your husband come here Ann. I can tell you now though, despite what any statistics say, the women here just won't insist on a condom. I hope that your husband is doing the right thing.
Whilst I am relatively young there are many aging men here with diabetes, exploding livers and nothing to lose, none of which use a condom. Why would they bother, its a brutal dog eat dog place.
Off to bed now. I have been taking my combination in the morning, so far touch wood no problems, I hope it stays that way, I have had three doses so far.
Thanks again.
L
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I don't bring condoms because I have no intention of having sex. I know you say they are safe, and to a point yes, but there is always that tiny chance of breakage that got me here eight years ago. That and the fact that regardless of what brand I use I can't feel nothing so it seems a pointless excercise having sex at all.
Do what you want to as far as taking condoms. But I have many, many times heard that "no intention of having sex" comment. And then sex happens. You can always not use them if you have them. It's just good to have them for the just in case scenario is how I see it.
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These drugs are dong quite the number on me. Not complaining, I appreciate access to them. Just wanted some advice. I have two more muay Thai matches. Should I proceed, or am I likely to run out of energy after one round. I know I feel lethargic and nausious, but I was expecting that. Is there any info on how they affect stamina. I am not sure whether to just come on back to the UK now.
Cheers.
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L,
I've already told you that PEP is unnecessary in your case. Why you're continuing with it is beyond me.
As for stamina, sure, the meds could affect you short term. Why don't you just see how you feel after a workout?
Ann
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That's a grand suggestion Andy, if I come here again I will bring condoms just in case. I must be the only Western bloked on the plane from Heathrow who has come here a dozen times in a row without so much as a blow job, lol.
Thanks Ann for that suggestion. Just spent two hours in the gym and no effect on stamina. It's not the Truvada that does it, it is the Stocrin, rattles the head a bit, but has been getting less as the days go by. I think that it will hopefully touch wood not bother me at all soon.
Cheers.
L
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Met up with the same massage girl last night when I was out eating. She was delighted to see me and so grateful that I had taken her for HIV testing. I proceeded to give her a lecture on safe sex, although it was really myself who I was angry with.
Anyway we have hit it off and she came back to my room again with me. I had the good sense to stop off at the 7/11 and buy some condoms that I thought would stay in the packet. I chose Durex "Feather lite". Well the inevitable happened and using feather lite I did actually get some sensation. It's not great but better than nothing. Also practised oral sex both ways, obviously as I have read here a dozen times is no risk.
It has though led to an absurd situation. I have a girl in my room watching me take HIV medication because of an incident with her from a week ago, whilst she is sitting there thinking she is negative. lol. Anyway, just thought that I would check in and point out that the Durex Feather lites are just about doable. And also switching the time of PEP to before bedtime has done away with the hit round the head feeling.
Thanks.
L
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L,
You're welcome.
I'm glad you started taking the Sustiva at night (like you're supposed to) and also that you found condoms you feel comfortable with. Remember, you should be using them back home in the UK as well. Hiv has no respect for borders - it's everywhere.
Ann
edited to add... PS - This is important! With the Feather-Lites, you need to make sure you are using lube - particularly for anal. They are really only safe for anal if you're lubed up with plenty of water-based lube. If you have no water-based lube to hand, instead of using a moisturiser that might contain oil in some form, use plenty of spit. Proper water-based lube is best, but spit is better than something oil-based and it's better than nothing.
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Ahah one step ahead Ann. It's that wretched vaseline plus condom that got me here nearly a decade ago. I know all about the perils of oil based lube and condoms. I think that anal thing with her was a one off as we were without condoms the first time.
I have struck up quite a relationship with her, so off to purchase some more featherlites.
Thanks again.
L
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L,
Vaseline??? Ouch! That is probably the worst thing you could use with latex condoms.
You need to know that it's advisable to use lube even when engaging in vaginal intercourse, particularly if the sex lasts for a while. And it's an absolute must for anal, particularly with thinner condoms. Better safe than sorry.
Now get off the internet and get yourself into a winning mind-set for your upcoming matches, and good luck with them.
Ann
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Hello Ann,
Thanks for the well wishes, three of my five matches went in my favour so not a bad result for someone in my mindset. I know this is an HIV specific forum, but I was just wondering. I have developed raised spots/rashes on the top of my feet and hands and on the palm of my hands, although there they are less raised. Is this likely syphyllis? I can't find anything to suggest that it is in any way HIV specific and I know that symptoms are unreliable in that respect anyway, due to the different manifestations on different people etc.
Cheers.
L
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L,
It might be syphilis, and it might not. The secondary syphilis rash is normally only on the palms of the hands and/or the soles of the feet, but it can be other places as well.
It could also be a reaction to those heavy-duty drugs you're insisting on taking (unnecessarily). That's where my money is....
Come on, you know the score... go see a doctor. Nobody can diagnose you over the internet.
Ann
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Spent an hour with a GUM appointment. They took blood and urine for everything. The first Doctor that I saw there was very non commital about the raised rash on my hands and feet which is starting to spread slightly up my right arm. It is itchy on my feet. She said it could be the drugs or ARS, obviously as ARS is so non-specific.
She then asked her boss a consultant about my situation. He felt that I should not bother taking the PEP. But as I have survived two weeks and if this rash is the worst that is happening, if it is from PEP then I can live with it and finish the next two weeks.
They gave me an HIV instant finger prick test. Too early I think obviously two weeks after the event, but perhaps for a baseline. I am wondering if this is seroconversion rash then would I not test positive, given that I have had the rash since about Tuesday I think.
Anyway got to go back next week regarding other bloods to see if the drugs are messing with my kidney's etc.
Also she started on the post PEP window thing. Said 6 weeks, 3 months then 6 months. I told her 6 months is outdated. She said it was basically to cover their ass. But a 6 week quite frankly will please me.
Also despite her being not very comitting, she then said that because the girl had a negative fourth generation that there is a very little chance that she could have HIV anyway. Then said even if she did the odds were astronomically in my favour, so a lot of mixed signals. Don't want to tempt fate but no other symptoms yet to speak of, and my strenght and energy seem normal.
I know the drill, it is now just a waiting game.
Cheers.
L
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L,
So basically they told you the same things we did. You didn't need PEP in the first place.
Regarding the rash, the ARS rash is never raised or itchy, so that was wrong. Thing is, they probably don't see a real ARS rash all that often. Did you ask about syphilis?
Nothing else to add, other than it's refreshing to know at least one health care professional admits that when they say six months, they're doing nothing more than covering their ass. Six month testing is unnecessary.
Ann
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Yep pretty much the same advice as your good self Ann. Actually I have done the maths and I know that statistics mean nothing, but a 1 in 2000 chance of insertive anal with a poz partner, multiplied by a 10 percent chance of PEP failure and then lets say for argument sake a 1 percent chance the girl is positive in a country that boasts a 2 percent prevelence, but I am taking into account her test. That adds up to about a 1 in 2 milliion chance. Better odds that a baby born to a positive mother. But stranger things have happened.
I will just keep plugging along with the PEP, as if anything a reminder to myself not to be such an enromous cock in the future. And with those odds etc that I have quoted, if I do end up Poz which I sincerely hope not then I will just accept it, with the exception of wearing a condom (The obvious clever persons choice), I can't do any more. Also most people I have talked to in SEA who are not there for the same reasons as me but there for whoring all say that they have at least one in every hundred condoms break, and that is with partners to whom they don't know their status and they don't take PEP.
This rash is just a bitch that has come along at just the wrong time to fuck with my head, but that's life. I am just trying to forget this and get on with the life I have back here in the UK.
Regarding the clinic, they even admitted that with their third generation tests the 3 month mark let alone the six month mark was overkill and that they had not seen a 6 week change, but as that is protocol I guess that is what is followed. In terms of syphiliis it is too soon for secondary symptoms so they say. Oh, also gave me a retroactive Hep B vaccination.
Anyway thanks for the continuing support, will post the six week results and then the three month ones.
L
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Feel bad for making a nuisance of myself and using up resources here. Just a quick question. If the rash that I had that has now gone was seroconversion and failure of PEP then would I test positive in ten days time which is four weeks post exposure and the end of PEP.
Cheers.
L
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Anyone? got any ideas about testing just after the completion of PEP. I know non-specific symptoms etc, but will testing after PEP and with the disappearance of symptoms confirm that it was not actually ARS.
Cheer again.
L.
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Anyone? got any ideas about testing just after the completion of PEP. I know non-specific symptoms etc, but will testing after PEP and with the disappearance of symptoms confirm that it was not actually ARS.
Cheer again.
L.
You really have no recourse but to wait six weeks after the end of PEP for a preliminary test, then again at three months.
Even if your risk was deemed high enough to warrant PEP (protip: it wasn't) the whole PURPOSE of PEP is to create a hostile environment in which HIV cannot reproduce. Therefore, even if you NEEDED PEP
and you did not
and if FAILED, you would likely not mount an immune response until six weeks-ish post treatment. You are on a similar medical regimen as many of us with HIV. And the point of that regimen is to suppress HIV replication. THAT is why HIV treatment is so effective. And that is why PEP extends the window period.
Since I already created antibodies a long time ago, I would still test positive myself. But being on an effective treatment regimen, my viral load is undetectable.
Which means that had I not already produced antibodies against HIV, I would be highly unlikely to do so unless/until I stopped treatment and my body reacted to the virus.
I know you are anxious, but there are no cheats here, no shortcuts. As a matter of fact, and not to drive a point further home, but you have taken an unnecessarily LONG journey through this process. Your choice, absolutely. But the consequences of that choice is a far longer window/testing period.
Wish there were more answers, or answers you liked.
Also, those statistics you quote are pretty much utter bullshit, based on disreputable studies and almost universally inapplicable. You will note we never, ever quote stats. It's for a reason. This site is based on hard science.
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Thanks JK for taking the time to respond and an explanation to some extent of the whole PEP thing.
True there are not shortcuts for this particular nightmare that is HIV testing. Sadly true also that stats mean nothing in the real world.
I just take comfort in the fact that my partner has a negative fourth generation ELISA that I saw with my own eyes. That's gotta be some comfort for me. And this whole thing might just have saved her in the future after the thorough pigeon Thai lecture I gave her after the event, and asked the doctor to give to her whilst enjoying my trip to the hospital.
Cheers again.
L
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L,
The only thing I have to add to Jonathan's sage remarks is that the rash you've experienced is most likely to be a reaction to the Sustiva/Stocrin/efavirenz and it came on exactly at the time it normally appears.
It's very common for people to get this rash and it is the main reason PEP usually consists of Kaletra/Truvada rather than Sustiva/Truvada. They are equally effective, but you have a lesser chance of getting the rash with Kaletra. The trade-off is that Kaletra can cause diarrhea while the body adjusts to the med.
I've said it (how many times now?) before and I'll say it one last time - you were unlikely to end up positive over this situation, PEP or no PEP.
Now you're just going to have to deal with the extended window period - an extension you have created yourself unnecessarily.
We're really not here to hold your hand while you wait to test. I suggest you concentrate on other things in your life - like that criminal trial you've got coming up for beating the crap out of some guy? Maybe now is the time to seek out counseling to get to the bottom of your anger issues. Seeing a counselor will go in your favour in court, and it will help you in other ways too.
Ann