POZ Community Forums
HIV Prevention and Testing => Do I Have HIV? => Topic started by: daveed on October 13, 2006, 11:18:59 am
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I have had erythematous candidiasis on the roof of my mouth for over 16 weeks now - this was confirmed by an oral specialist who remarked how rare this condition was in young and healthy males (I'm 28). This thrush responds to anti fungal medication but reappears soon after i stop taking them. I have had 5 negative 4th generation ELISAs out to 4 months and 3 weeks post exposure (unprotected sex with female of unknown status) but i cant believe these results because of the strength of this symptom which is known as an oral manifestation of HIV.
If HIV had weakened my immune system so quickly as to allow opportunistic infections to develop wouldn't my body have produced antibodies by now?
I am so scared, please somebody answer me
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Your body does not produce antibodies if you have not been infected and as you've stated you've had 5 negative results out to 4 months, which means you are conclusively HIV negative.
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Daveed,
You are conclusively hiv negative. There are other things that can cause thrush aside from hiv. You might want to look into your diet for a start. You also need to make sure you are taking the complete course of medication - don't stop when the thrush disappears, finish all your medication.
Keep working with your doctor to put an end to the thrush and also see a nutritionist. Whatever is going on has nothing to do with hiv.
Ann
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Is there no chance that i could be a late converter? Many of the American websites advise a 6 month window and the fact that this thrush shows no sign of going after 16 weeks makes me so frightened that i have skipped the latent stage of the disease and progressed directly to opportunistic infections!
I just have 1 final question please:
Is it possible that i could have thrush for 16 weeks and not yet have seroconverted?
Thank you so much for your help
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Sure it's possible, if you are a long term IV drug user, on Chemo, take anti-rejection medication for transplants or you have a severe immune disease. Now do you fall within those categories? If not the answer is NO.
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I don't fall into those categories, unless i have a serious immune deficiency/disease that i'm not aware of - though i did have a full blood count that came back normal, so i assume that my immune system is okay.
Thank you for your advise, i do feel compelled to have a 6 month test, simply because my symptom is so rare but i really hope you are right about me.Cheers Rod
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About 3 weeks after the unprotected sex i got a slight chest infection then i experienced a sort of inner trembling - i could feel my body trembling but it wasn't obvious to other people that i was, this then progressed to what i can only describe as adrenylin rushes, or cold waves going through my body. The trembling lasted around 3 weeks and the cold rushes then occured and lasted for a further 4-5 weeks on and off. Also 3 weeks after the exposure i noticed tiny white spots coating the underside of my tongue. Does this sound like the initial onset of HIV?
I'm sorry to ask all these questions but i'm on anti-depressants because i am so worried. I have a long term girlfriend who i cheated on and most of my fear is concentrated on the chance that i have infected her.
If someone could take the time to answer this question it would be very much appreciated, this really is the worst experience of my life.
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No your symptoms do not sound like ARS. You have had your negative result so it is time to get on with your life. If you are having other symptoms see your doctor. You at least know that they are unrelated to HIV.
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And if you had a seriously depressed immune system you would not be in any doubt that condition. It shows up in quite extreme ways far beyond anything you are describing symptomatically.
You ARE HIV negative. Period. End of story.
Anything else that's going on should be discussed with your doctor.
This is not an HIV situation. Really.
Cheers,
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Thanks to everyone who has replied to me. I just needed clarification of how reliable my results are at 20 weeks post exposure - i got really scared when the specialist said he didn't really know why a young man would get recurrent fungal infections on the palate, and asked me if i'd been tested for HIV.
When you read that 99% of people seroconvert by 3 months it doesn't stretch the imagination too much to think that you could be the 1% that doesn't - 1 in a hundred or probably better at 20 weeks aren't odds you'd trust your life on really!
But thanks for the reassurance guys, i'm feeling a bit better now and hope i can let this go.
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daveed,
You are absolutely, conclusively hiv negative. Whatever is causing your thrush has nothing to do with hiv. You do not need further hiv testing.
Ann
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I hope you don't mind me asking one last thing and then i promise to get on with my life!
Does the fact that erythematous candida (which are red lesions on the palate of the mouth) being very rare in young people and described on most websites as 'highly indicative of HIV' not give weight to the fact that i may be infected, especially when it appeared so soon after my unprotected exposure?
I am aware my negative antibody tests up to 20 weeks is considered conclusive and have been told by two councillors that if my symptoms were caused by HIV, then they would have fully expected my immune system to have responded with antibodies, but i am just struggling to accept that this occurance is a total coincidence.
If my symptom was general and non-specific then i really would just beable to forget this nightmare and move on, but even my highly qualified oral specialist said that he couldn't explain why this was occuring and that it was very unusual.
I just felt that i needed to get this point across and see whether this changed your oppinion in my negative result? Sorry for not fully accepting your initial advice but this fear is taking over my life.
Thank you all
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After all your testing YOU ARE NOT HIV POSITIVE...PERIOD People with HIV aren't the only ones that get thrush or any other symptoms. You can not diagnosis HIV by symptoms. You are negative, now move on with your life.
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daveed
1. Thrush is not a symptom that usually appears during seroconversion. It's an OI that usually comes late in the disease. It has been reported but from the papers I have read is not of high prevalence during seroconverion.
2. Recurring thrush is even more unlikely because once an individual has gone through seroconversion the body fights back and you do not usually have symptoms of HIV for many years. That's why HIV is so dangerous! People are infected but feel healthy.
3. You have an HIV test under your belt beyond the official guideline of the CDC and for sure all European countries.
Add all of this together and you'll find out:
You do not have HIV!
Regards
Darkfiber
BTW: what antifungal medicine did your doc prescribe for your thrush?
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I have been prescribed amphotericin (fungilin) lozenges which is about the strongest medication a regular GP in the UK can prescribe but the specialist is starting me on a course of fluconazole in the next few days.
Thanks for the reasurrance guys - anything that helps me get through this nightmare is appreciated.
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I've just read the thread by Miracle Jane from a few days ago...could a 3.5 month negative test really have turned positive by 6 months? I'm panicking now as i was hoping i was conclusive at 4 months and 3 weeks but this story makes me doubtful. If 13 weeks wasn't conclusive for her, how rare is this?
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Daveed,
NO. It's more likely that Jane had another risk incident that she isn't telling us about.
Ann
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Thanks Ann, i was hoping you'd say that!
I phoned a British HIV helpline at lunch and they told me that in the last 10 years of UK testing not one clinic in the entire country including Scotland and Wales had reported an instance of seroconversion after 3 months and this is why the UK will continue to adopt a 3 month window. A more recent study found that every person negative at 8 weeks, remained negative at 3 months, but an 8 week policy will not yet be introduced.
Of course because i'm convinced that i'm the one who has slipped through the net that statement brought me only about 5 minutes relief! But I thought i'd post it for less anxious folks who might be more willing to accept scientific facts than I am at this moment in time.
One question for the experts on this site please - where does the figure (on almost every website) of 99% seroconversion at 3 months come from? If this was true and 20,000 people in the UK became HIV positive in the last 10 years then by my calculations at least 200 people would have been late seroconverters - probably many more because over a 10 year period the UK reports a figure of 100% seroconversion by 3 months. Can anyone explain this please??
Thanks
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where does the figure (on almost every website) of 99% seroconversion at 3 months come from?
Daveed,
I wish I bloody well knew, because I've not been able to find one shred of evidence to support that number. All I can find is evidence to the contrary - such as what you were told today by the BHIVA helpline. (and I've been researching this stuff for a few years now) Honestly? I think it's a CYA blanket statement put out by people/organisations who are jittery about hiv infection themselves. I see hiv jitters in the medical profession all the time.
Ann
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Thanks for replying Ann,
the numbers just don't work at all, yet these figures are quoted far too frequently...like my friend said to me when trying to reassure me, 'do you really think the NHS would give you the all clear to have sex with your girlfriend if one in a hundred people slip through the 3 month net?'... i have to say he had a point!
Saying that...it's bloody sods law that the exception to the rule will be me after saying all this!
Thanks again
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Can anyone clear up my confusion regarding the P24 antigen and antibody tests that I have had please - if antibodies had for some reason not developed by 4 months and 3 weeks and the antibody test was negative, would the P24 test be likely to detect HIV at this late stage?
I have read that the P24 test is only useful up to around 3 weeks because then antibodies take over and P24 becomes undetectable - if antibodies are not produced ie late conversion, would P24 still be detectable at 20 weeks?
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No, no, no, NO! You are looking into the wrong end of the telescope!
Forget about P24s and anything else related to HIV. Simply because no one has come up with a proper diagnosis does not invalidate your negative HIV tests. And no matter how your mind keeps scaring you, those are feeling-based and have no basis in HIV science.
You are HIV negative. Period. End of that story.
If your doctor can't come up with an explanaiton and treatment then you need to see another doctor. You are only feeding your fears when you continue to focus determinedly on the idea that it's HIV and it just hasn't "officially shown up yet."
Believe me, if we had any doubts we would have told you to check further for HIV. But that is not the case. By mistakenly focusing on HIV you are avoiding finding whatever the real problem is.
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Daveed,
I suppose theoretically, that would be true about the p24s.
However, you're missing the point here. Most people seroconvert and test positive by SIX WEEKS. You had your last test at TWENTY weeks. You are not hiv positive and you're just going to have to get used to that fact and look into other possible causes of your problems.
Are you on chemotherapy for cancer? High doses of anti-rejection drugs following organ transplant? Have you been injecting street drugs every single day of the year, for the past several years? NO? Then there is no reason why you wouldn't have already tested positive if you are positive. You aren't. You are hiv negative, period, end of story.
If you cannot accept your negative hiv status, then it's time for you to seek help in the form of face-to-face counseling. There's nothing more we can do for you here.
Ann
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Ann, Andy,
Thanks for your help guys, you certainly know what you're talking about and i will put my trust in you.
Take care
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I'm having my 6 month test this week and i'm just so anxious and scared that i had to make one final post. The ereythemous candidiasis is still growing on the roof of my mouth - 18 weeks now, and it's just so rare that i can't help but fear the worst. I know that when antibodies are produced the viral load reduces - but if i am a late converter and have no antibodies then it stands to reason that the thrush will not dissappear doesn't it?
If my test comes back positive then i know you guys will reject my story and think i've had risks that i'm not disclosing...but that isn't the case - do you think from my symptoms i could be the 1 in a 100 or less who takes over 3 months to convert - my last test was at 4months and 3 weeks?
Because i have the test this week my fear is going through the roof
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Read Ann's last post again. You have had your negative test and you can keep taking tests till the cows come home but it will not change the result that you are HIV negative.
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I had a really bad cold/chest infection when i took the 6 month test - i've heard the test is ultra sensitive and can mistakenly pick up other antibodies - do you think this could affect the result in any way?
Thanks
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daveed,
If the test had picked up some other antibody, you would have had a (false) positive. You didn't. Having a chest cold will not in any way alter your hiv antibody test result. You are hiv negative and you're just going to have to get used to it.
Ann
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Sorry Ann, just to clarify - i went for the test yesterday so i don't have the results yet, i just wanted to make sure my cold wouldn't affect the outcome.
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daveed,
You've already had a negative result at twenty weeks and that result is NOT going to change. You are hiv negative and you're just going to have to get used to it.
Ann
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Hello again,
I went for another test at 25 weeks which was negative again, and it took most of my worries away but I hope you will bear with me and answer one final post please...
The thrush is still growing on the roof of my mouth now - 5 months later...it's just difficult to square the fact that i'm repeatedly testing negative when the thing just won't go away...the oral specialist carried out full systemic blood tests which all came back clear, which clears me for thyroid problems etc. He tells me that 'sometimes in medicine we cant always be sure what is causing a symptom' and plans to treat it indefinately with fluconazole. I'm just finding it hard to get my head around the fact that i've just magically 'got' this fungal infection and will never know the reason why (the guy is an oral maxifacial surgeon, so he's no quack!)
Could i be one of the late converters? I see statements that read, 'In general, symptoms are never a good indicator of infection'...in general implies that one or two are!...is ongoing thrush one of those?
Please give me your expert advice one last time guys
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daveed, please reread all the replies that you have already been given. None of the answers are going to change. You are conclusively NEGATIVE.
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daveed,
Symptoms or even the lack of symptoms mean nothing when it comes to hiv infection. The only way to reliably know your hiv status is through hiv antibody testing.
You have tested negative far outside the window period. you are not hiv positive; you do not have hiv.
Oral thrush can be caused by many different things. If your current doctor cannot get to the bottom of what is going on, then perhaps it's time to get a second opinion.
Ann
Ann
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One quick question for Ann,
Ann, i don't mean to be picky but in an answer to a question today, you said that you'd never seen anyone go from a 6 week negative to a positive later on this forum. What about MIRACLEJANE's post a couple of months ago?
You clearly didn't believe that she had gone from a 3 month negative to a 6 month positive, and i'm not implying that I do either - but it is possible. Even the lessons on aids meds state that though very rare it is possible.
I'm just trying to quantify your statement - did you mean you haven't seen anyone whose story you believed seroconvert after 6 weeks? Also if someone claims to have seroconverted late, would it be the policy of this forum to simply disregard their story as ficticious so as not to panic the worried well, even though the lessons of the same forum state that it can happen?
Sorry im just a bit confused!
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Unless she had a compromised immune system, on antirejections meds, uses IV drugs or on chemo. Then no I don't believe it unless that had unprotect sex from the time of testing for the first test till her second test. That is the only reason for a rare positive result that is confirmed.
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daveed,
Jane was posting from Kazakhstan - who knows what passes for hiv technology there. I wouldn't take her claims as anything that could be applied to you.
I have never seen someone who tested negative at six weeks or more test anything other than negative at three months. I'm not saying it isn't possible to go on to test positive after a six week negative, I'm saying it doesn't generally happen.
You are conclusively hiv negative. You can test all you want, but unless you are continuing to have unprotected intercourse, you can test all you like and you will continue to receive negative results.
Ann
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I know Ann - no doubt you are correct. One final question I promise.
After my 25 week negative the councillor did ask me why i was torturing myself like this when the window is 12 weeks.
I asked her if i could have unprotected sex again with my girlfriend and she said yes of course. (my girlfriend was tested for all STDs with me way back in August. We have been having unprotected sex now for a couple of weeks and I guess that my anxiety which is flaring up again stems from this (infecting her) as well as the candidiasis which still covers my mouth.....is this safe Ann? If I am as you say undoubtedly negative, can I go back to having a normal (monogamous) sex life with her - cos I can't pass on what I dont have right??
Thank you
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Daveed,
Of course you can have unprotected intercourse with your girlfriend as long as you are both seriously monogamous - and you have tested together.
I would suggest seeing a dietitian/nutritionist who is knowledgeable concerning dietary causes of persistent thrush - if you are still having this problem.
Ann
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If a severely depleted immune system can cause delayed seroconversion - as often mentioned by the experts on here, would this apply to thrush caused by hiv very quickly?
For example I got oral candidiasis 6 weeks or so after unprotected sex - if i did get HIV from the unprotected encounter, then the HIV did a fantastic job of ruining my immune system very quickly. So therefore my immune system would qualify as being severely depleted wouldn't it? I wouldn't have to be lying ill in bed and fully aware of my immune system deficiency if this virus caused it faster in me than it generally does in others would I?
Is this the way antibody production works? Would having an ongoing symptom like I have, mean that the antibody tests would be more likely to show up positive than someone infected but with no symptoms, or am i correct that the early damage to my immune system (as signified by the erythematous candidiasis) could cause a delayed response? If any expert can address these specific questions i'd be very grateful.
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Yet another question and they just keep coming. YOU ARE HIV NEGATIVE.
If you had a severely depleted immune system you wouldn't be guessing about it. You'd be in a hospital bed because it's not a subtle event or one which leaves any doubt that the body is in serious trouble. Thrush is not an HIV specific occurence, if in fact you even have it. And to know it needs to diagnosed by a doctor and not you practicing medicine on yourself. When it's treated it can be very persistent and that persistence is absolutely not anything HIV specific.
It's time to call a halt here. HIV is not your problem. Discuss your concerns with your doctor. We can't diagnose anything here nor can we give you anymore information than we have already.
I'd say you need to see a therapist to talk about the emotional aspects of what's going on.
We can't address that need in this setting.
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It has been over 10 months now and this candidiasis will not go away... i'm currently on my 4th course of amphotericin lozenges which follows two weeks continous of nystatin. These anti-fungals are supposed to work in 7 days, but all they do is reduce it to a red mark that returns immediately when i stop taking them.
I know you embrace the 3 month negative test and the fact that i have a 6 month negative will more than likely make you disregard this post, but instances of late seroconversion are documented and since every other potential cause has been ruled out it seems likely that this has happened to me.
Do you think one more test is warranted? In answering this can you please not stick ridgidly to your 3 month guidelines but consider my symptom please (if you google it, nothing but HIV comes up) and the fact that it's ultra persistent just adds fuel to this argument
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We NEVER diagnose symptoms no matter how long they have been persisting. We will not diagnose yours. You have tested reliably negative at the appropriate times. I am hard pressed to believe you have ruled out "everything else". In 10 months it's simply not possible.
http://www.candidafree.net/?gclid=CMami5mLhosCFQhUUAodZxR1HQ You should seriously consider checking out this site. I think its more appropriate than an HIV site being that you are conclusively HIV negative.
Good luck.
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ACinKC
Thanks for your reply, though I don't entirely understand it...how would it take longer than 10 months to rule out other potential causes? The most common cause aside from HIV is antibiotic or steroid use and since i haven't taken any this was instantly ruled out. Another cause is wearing dentures which I do not do. All other systemic causes... thyroid disorders, diabetes,Sjogens Sydrome, Xerostomia where ruled out by blood tests...leaving all other potential causes ruled out to my knowledge.
I know i have 'reliably' tested negative, but it wont be so reliable if i take another test several months down the line and find out that i'm one of those rare late converters and my immune system is completely shot to sh*t.
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Ps no disrespect intended by my reply
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Stress can also cause it. Either way you are CONCLUSIVELY HIV Negative! Not a late seroconverter. If your immune system was shot you would know it and your Dr. would know it. If you had HIV to the point of being SEVERELY immunosupressed as you are indicating please tell me why it wouldnt show up on the test? If HIV is the cause of your immunosuppression and your thrush how has it ravaged your entire body and gone unnoticed? The sheer amounts of viral load required to debilitate you to this level are astronomical.
Answer: Because its NOT the cause.
No disrespect taken. Just listen to what we say.
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And please keep this in mind.
Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.
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Thanks for your answer it has helped me a lot
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I really hope it has. Good luck.