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Author Topic: Yes - another receptive oral case  (Read 8691 times)

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Offline mars

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Yes - another receptive oral case
« on: June 19, 2006, 08:28:02 AM »
Hello There

This is yet another question about receptive oral sex on a male. I have read so many reports and cases, and have to admit that while I hope the view that receptive oral is extremely low risk, I worry about the so-called documented cases on reads about. The comments made by Dr K and Page Shafer are really encouraging, but I, as I am sure many others do, still fixate on the chance that I could be the exception. Therefore to help get my head around this I would like to ask for your input as it is on my mind all day and night.

I met a pretty Philippino transexual at a party. The bi-attraction I feel is always for TV girls only, but my experience with these is very limited. This ladyboy had been operated on; had no testicles but had a penis (circumcised). We had protected anal sex and I performed fellatio (for the first time ever) on her. In conversation with her, she said that she can have the sensation of an orgasm but doesnt truly ejaculate. At best she may squirt a very little.

In sucking her, I didnt taste any pre-cum or ejaculate (I am told you can always taste it). I have it on good authority that she is a hair dresser and not a bar girl/hooker.

Is the lack of semen in any ejaculate she might have make her safer to have pre-cum or cum in my mouth?

Am I at risk of HIV? Should I get tested? Am I worrying my head of for nothing and simply succumbing to my worst fears. If I get tested at 4 weeks, how conclusive/what percentage of accuracy could this offer.

Sorry. I know you have heard similar stories so amny times and been asked to answer.

Mars

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 09:08:47 AM »
Mars,

It's highly unlikely that you would have become infected with hiv in the situation you describe. Giving a blowjob rarely results in hiv infection. Studies of serodiscordant couples have shown us just how rare this is - not one of the negative partners in these studies have tested positive even though they weren't using condoms for oral. Not one. I don't expect you would test positive either.

As for testing, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs. If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

To be perfectly honest, you don't really need to test over this specific incident. If you do decide to test, wait at least until six weeks (not four) because the vast majority of people who have actually been infected will seroconvert and test positive by six weeks. If you do test, please consider this the beginning of a life-long habit. As I have already said, as long as you are using condoms for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return negative results. I don't expect you to get anything other than a negative result from the incident you bring to us.

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. It does not matter whether the person is a sex worker or a hairdresser or a baker, banker, tailor... whatever. You need to be using condoms for intercourse until you have tested together.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 09:26:07 AM »
Thanks for the reply Ann

Probably what is freaking me is the fact that I am about to take up a new job in the Middle East. Thats the good part, the worrying is that I have to undergo a HIV test to get a work permit. It would be so embarrasing to vacate the position (a high managment one) due to failing the HIV test, not to mention the life consequences of the desease.

I have read reports on the studies you mention, but recall someone challenging the validity of the studies because people with HIV are often on medication that inhibit their infectiousness with others? Could this be the case?

Could the results be simply down to keeping really good oral hygiene?

I know, dumb questions, but as with many contributors on this site, I am trying to work all the questions through in my mind and hope to find some answers.

Thanks for your help Ann

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2006, 09:45:51 AM »
Good oral hygiene is always helpful in protecting you.

However, any such details are mostly beside the point which is that instances of transmission via giving oral are very rare and for the most part in those few reports not credibly documented.

When you add into the mix in relation to your specific situation that it was a tranny who doesn't ejaculate it reduces the already very low risk level to even lower.

Go ahead and test at 6 weeks if you need to relieve your concern. (The average time to seroconversion is 22 days) All but the very smallest number who will seroconvert will do so within 4-6 weeks after an exposure. Given that this was a single incident you're talking about a risk so miniscule that like Ann, I wouldn't even consider testing to be necessary.

I also strongly urge that you lay off of shopping the net for "information," because all it will do is stoke your fears and anxiety to no good purpose.

I expect you to come out of this ok.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 09:54:57 AM »
Mars,

The Romero study definitely had hiv positive people who were both on meds and off meds, with a wide variety of viral loads. This was also one of the largest and longest lasting studies. Not one person who used condoms for intercourse but not oral became infected.

Saliva has many properties that inhibit and damage hiv. Hiv is a very fragile virus and when it is outside of it's favoured environment, it quickly becomes damaged. All it takes is a difference in pH levels, moisture levels and temperature levels - and please don't forget that the environment of the mouth is extra hostile to hiv because of enzymes and other components that actually attack the membrane of the virus. Our mouths are designed to be very effective barriers to all sorts of pathogens that might enter into the body there.

You have an excellent chance of testing negative. I would be very surprised if you didn't and I fully expect you to test negative. (provided you always use condoms for intercourse - because sexually speaking, unprotected intercourse is how people become infected with hiv.)

That's the bottom line here - use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse and you will remain hiv negative. It really is that simple!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2006, 10:07:06 AM »
Thanks Ann and Andy

I appreciate the time you have taken to assist people like myself, and also the encouragement you have given. It can be really quite lonely discussing issues such as this, and right now, as with others, my fears have dominated my every thought.

Hopefully I can gather the courage to move on. I know I will get tested, simply for eventual peace of mind, but hope that I have the strength to be optomistic.......possibly thats what we worry about. None of us dare feel optomistic just in case we are that one rare case. Possibly we all think that we are or will be that one unfortunate contradiction to the evidence.

Your council helps to put some things in perspective.

Thanks
Mars


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2006, 12:11:35 PM »
Glad you found the exchanges to be helpful.

Whether pessimistic or optomistic you need to just go about your business.

Since you plan to be tested just for your peace of mind staying busy will help the waiting time pass more quickly than you can possibly imagine at this moment.

Then you can collect the inevitable negative result and breathe a sigh of relief.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2006, 05:13:08 AM »
HI there Ann and Andy

Been working hard on keeping the stress levels down. Its takes a fair maont of mental discipline. The last couple of days since your comments have been somewhat easier. It seems many people who have had some sort of sexual encounter go through the stress that I am experiencing, often with no risk exposures at all.

I am amazed at how many of us get sore throats ( I have a slight throat problem at moment - I often get these) and lymph node problems (yesterday I thought that maybe mine were slightly sore) as we stress ourselves silly.

Would it be correct to say that a huge percentage of people who write in concerned that they might be experiencing some sort of ailment they fear to be ARS, actullay turn out to be HIV negative? Do you actullay get many people writing in that turn out to be positive?

Regards
Mars


Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2006, 06:04:34 AM »
mars,

We rarely ever see people in this forum test positive. Every single one of the ones who have (and I'm pretty sure I can count them on one hand - maybe one and a half - and that's since 2001), have been the result of unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse and they have also usually been the receptive partner.

There is a simple explanation for at least some of the sore throats we see here. Stress and anxiety tends to make people breathe through their mouth. Mouth-breathing is a good way to end up with a sore throat and it's also a good way to end up with a funny looking coating on your tongue. Smokers under stress also tend to smoke more and smoking more... hell, it ain't rocket science!

I'd also say that a very high percentage of the swollen glands we see here are a direct result of people touching and checking them all the time to see if they are swollen. This causes them to swell because they are delicate things and don't take well to constant prodding. The prodding makes them swell, the person feels this and keeps checking, making them swell more... and it just becomes a vicious cycle. Keep your mitts off your glands. If you have concerns about them, see your doctor and leave the diagnosis to him/her.

You are going to be just fine Mars, just make certain you are using condoms for intercourse and make sure you are using the correctly. Condom use prevents hiv infection. It really is that simple.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 02:28:27 AM »
Hi there

My mind is playing small tricks on me today.

Is your confidence that my hiv test should prove to be negative based on fact that the transexual I perfomed fellatio on likely does not have ejaculate, or do you have the same confidence even if she did squirt a little somthing in my mouth that I could not detect?

Possibly a silly question, I know. But as I said the mind plays tricks.

Thanks
Mars

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2006, 02:37:02 AM »
Quote
Is your confidence that my hiv test should prove to be negative based on fact that the transexual I perfomed fellatio on likely does not have ejaculate, or do you have the same confidence even if she did squirt a little somthing in my mouth that I could not detect?

The answers remain the same.   Please re-read the posts ann and andy have given you.  They won't change based upon the presence or lack of ejaculate.   I'd consider this a non-risk incident based upon several recent studies.   This site considers giving oral EXTREMELY low risk in any event no matter what goes in your mouth.. or doesn't.

 

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2006, 09:22:00 AM »
mars,

Just for the record, Dingo's post is exactly what I would have said.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2006, 09:57:24 AM »
Thanks .....your words do help tremendously  ;)

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2006, 09:59:40 AM »
Mars, you're still trying to put it all in a neat box so that you won't have any doubting feelings.

Feelings aren't facts and they may just keep coming up. They don't change the realities of HIV science. And that science has consistently shown that giving a blowjob is very, very, very low for risk. As  you've been told several longterm studies with sero-dystonic couples amply support that.

Your mind can keep coming up with stuff. So what! Doesn't change a thing about HIV transmission.

Get your test, collect your negativ and in the meantime get on with your life, man!
Andy Velez

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2006, 12:53:24 AM »
Thanks everyone

I think my stress is due to the HIV test for the work permit in Egypt. If I didnt have that (and the resultant embarrasment if proved to be positive) to worry about, I think I could almost take everyone's advice and not even bother to test at all. I even saw sometime ago on the doctor at Medhelp website even advised a guy who had given a blowjob to a transvestite with cum on the penis, not to worry abot getting tested since the risk was so low.  see -   http://www.medhelp.org/forums/STD/messages/2671.html

Its just the work permit situation playing tricks with me. I do appreciate your patience and i am working on taking your advice

Regards
Mars

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2006, 08:33:18 AM »
HI Guys

Its not been a great day today. Its Saturday - no work to keep me occupied.

Have had a couple of days of what I imagine to be mild, very vague ache under armpit (is it lymphnodes I wonder) and my arms (biceps and elbows) feel achy. Normally mentally strong in most situations, but hvaing to control the thoughts about ARS. Do ARS syntoms normally happen seperately or does it appear as a collection of symptoms?
Have no fever or general fatigue - still went for a run today. But do feel somewhat depressed and anxious. Living like I am limbo at moment wiating for first test dates. Its only day 14 today. Time really does crawl, when for once you want it to fly by.

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2006, 08:59:17 AM »
Mars,

Sitting in front of your computer is not going to help one little bit.

Are you aware that you can hold a lot of tension in your muscles and not realise it? This tension can cause the achy feeling you describe and it can also cause feelings of pins and needles. You've had a run and stretched your legs, now turn off your computer and go do something that will stretch and exercise your upper torso, neck, shoulders and arms.

ARS symptoms, if they happen at all, come on all at once and they go all at once. They don't come one by one either.

But you have a better chance of winning the highest ever jackpot prize with a lottery ticket you found in the gutter than becoming infected from your blowjob experience. Seriously.

Now, get off the internet and go find something to do. Clean your house. Tidy the garden. Go for a walk. Do something, anything other than sit in front of your computer all day, worrying about an infection that you are extremely unlikely to have.

Ann
 
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 07:29:54 AM »
HI Guys

I am doing ok....keeping calm and reminding myself of the fact that my exposure was extremely low risk. I am reasured that not only Andy and Ann have suggested that testing over my exposure isnt really neccesary, DR. HHH from the medhelp website says similar things to others who had the same sort of exposure to me.

I still aim to get tested to simply erradicate the fear I have of being humiliated at my new place of employment if I tested positive in Egypt. My plan being that if I was to test positive before arriving in about 5 - 6 weeks time (8 - 9 weeks after exposure) I would simply resign the position before ven arriving. I wouldnt get a work permit anyway with a positive HIV test.

Plan to go in next week at 4 weeks. I know you said wait six weeks, but Dr HHH at medhelp suggests that at 4 weeks its 90 - 95% chance you would test positive. I like the odds after that if was to test negative.

The only fly in teh ointment is comments I saw some time ago in the Body website where Dr. Bob insists on 13 week testing. He similarly recommends anyone, even if insertive oral exposure to get tested, such is his desire to err on the side of safety.

Question 1:
Is he simply being too damned cautious about testing times, given that your website and Dr. HHH all say that 6 weeks should be sufficient?

Question 2:
Would you agree with DR. HHH assessment that at 4 weeks 95% of infected people will convert?

Your feedback welcome

Regards
Mars

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 09:05:03 AM »
I go by the CDC on testing. Three months.

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2006, 09:33:15 AM »
Rapid Rod, you didnt read the question and you were too quick with one of your ever-ready one liners that i notice you like to write. I dont have three months to wait for testing before I take up the new position.

I was simply looking to correlate Andys advice (and Dr. HHH) which states that all but the very smallest number of infected people test positive in 4 - 6 weeks, with the statements that Dr. Bob (and now you) makes.

Unless of course, you are in complete disagreement with Andy and believe that evidence suggests that there are many more than Andy indicates who are yet to seroconvert after 6 weeks.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 09:43:30 AM »
Doesn't matter if you have three months to take the position or not. Until the CDC guidelines says different, than that is the recourse. I'm not going to change my position just because you are taking a job elsewhere and it don't fit into your timeline.

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2006, 08:59:56 PM »
I understand and fully appreciate that 3 months is the time when you can confidently state that you are negative. I am not questioning that at all. I am simply trying to confirm that if you test negative at 4 & 6 weeks ( 95 - 99% accurate ) you can be reasonably confident of that the 3 month reading will eventually be negative too. This is what Andy and DR. HHH seem to indicate.....I am simply looking for confirmation that thsi is the case in teh light of what Dr. Bob and CDC state.

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2006, 04:56:43 AM »
mars,

A four week negative is a good indication. A six week negative is an excellent indication. I have never seen a six week negative go on to change at 12-13 weeks. A four week neg? Yes, a couple times. Not often though.

In your case, your risk was very, very low, despite what you might think about it.

I'm fully expecting you to continue to test negative.

Ann


Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2006, 05:37:47 AM »
Thanks Ann

Your words come at a good moment. I was at the doctors and he said I had a slightly swollen lymph node under my arm and possibly it was a viral. That worried me when he mentioned viral. I have had slighlty swollen lymph nodes in my throat due to a sore throat. i get these frequently, and so a swollen node in armpit was even more worrying. The doctor did say however, that it could be due to my sore throat, if in fact it was a viral infection in the throat.

Roll on four and six weeks.

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2006, 09:05:25 PM »
Been working on keeping calm and rational. I intend to get tested this week at 26 days after the (extremely pow risk) exposure. I cant get tested at 28 days (4 weeks ) as I will be on flight home for a holiday. The test will be a rapid test administered by local private hospital so get results on same day...my fingers are crossed.

I would apprciate some advice on possible follow up testing. Here in this country, I am able to purchase a home test kit (rapid hiv test) over the internet and administer this myself at home and see the results within 20 minutes. When I get to my home country (New Zealand) you have to wait a week to get results. If I test myself using the home kit at 6 weeks (assuming that my 4 weeks is negative), is this a sensible thing to do. Do home test kits produce equally reliable results?

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2006, 04:44:57 AM »
mars,

As far as I know, the Home Access test is the only one that has been approved by the American FDA and is the only one that is definitely reliable.

But you're over-testing here. Instead of wasting all that time, money and resources over such a small risk, why don't you just wait until the six week point - or later - and get a result that actually means something. To be honest, you don't really need to test over this incident at all.

You are unlikely to get anything other than a negative result no matter when you test - provided of course that you always use condoms for intercourse, no matter who you are with.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2006, 06:24:50 AM »
Hello Ann, Andy and team

Went for my test today at 26 days (rapid test) and it came back negative as you had predicted. I know you had recommended hanging out to 6 weeks, but I just felt I needed to do this for peace of mind at this point.

I have been working hard on staying calm, and as Andy has said, disciplining myself not to go by my feelings (fears) but rather the facts. Having done quite some research, many experts such as Dr. Bob, Dr. HHH, Dr. K and Dr. Pager have all reiterated what you have said and that is the receptive oral is extremely low risk (negligible accordng to Dr. Bob & risk close to zero risk according to Dr.HHH) and in fact isnt really an issue for testing.

I was reasonably calm doing the test (despite my fears about the being the exception to the rule) thanks to the encourgment that your team have given. In my bleaker moments, I have read through your comments and these have really helped.

I know 26 days (2 days short of 4 weeks) is not technically enough to be totally in the clear. Dr.  HHH repeatedly states that modern tests will virtually always become positive, if infected, by 4 weeks. Given my very low level of risk and a test at a time when most people who are infected will have become positive, I am feeling reasonably confident about my HIV test in Egypt in a few weeks time.  Hopefully I can stay calm and confident until then and get back to enjoying life.

Thanks for your help everyone - its been a real comfort. I will keep you posted.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2006, 08:47:41 AM »
Well, your happy test result is no surprise, but still, it's always nice to get one of those.

If you continue to test I expect just more of the same for your collection.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline mars

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2006, 11:48:50 PM »
Hello Andy, Ann & team

Just got my 6 week test results back, and as you expected, it came back negative.

Thats a relief.....feeling more relaxed given that it is exceedingly rare to test positive after 6 weeks. Given that my level of risk was already extremely low, and the negative at 6 weeks, I am now feeling much, much better.

Thanks for your help and encouragement. It really did assist me in staying as calm as I could be...I did have some sleepless nights and have been rather useless at work due to the stress, but always tried to keep your words at the forefront of my mind. THANKS!!!!

Offline Ann

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Re: Yes - another receptive oral case
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2006, 05:12:43 AM »
Mars,

That's good, if not unexpected, news.

I hope you also keep other things you've read here at the forefront of your mind - namely that you need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions. Use condoms and avoid hiv infection.

I also hope you remember to have regular sexual health care check-ups, being the responsible adult that you are. ;)

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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