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Author Topic: Serosorting  (Read 3161 times)

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Offline med forum

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Serosorting
« on: February 01, 2007, 08:40:39 AM »
I'd like to open the discussion about the following......
I'm wondering what people's opinions are about serosorting.....

1. Do you think it "works"?

2. Are you in a way limiting yourself to the possibilities of love?

My boyfriend and I started a brief discussion about this recently.....I am a negative female, he is a positive male.....
Peace & health

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 09:25:39 AM »


  1.Do you think it works?  Absolutely, if you find that right one.

  2. Are you in a way limiting yourself to the possibilities of love?  HIV is not the only thing you want to have in common when you get in a relationship, just like having a love of Italian food is not.  As in all relationships a chemistry has to be there in order for it to work.

   Many people regardless of status limit their possibilities when it comes to relationships.  I've had two failed marriages while negative.  Discordant relationships can have a few extra issues involved, but if both are willing/able to work through those there is no reason they cannot be just as successful as any other relationship regardless of status. 

   HIV is just something one has... it's not male/female.. it's not sexual orientation.... it's not an interest.. and as long as the two have an understanding of what comprises a good relationship.. things like : communication, trust, understanding, and maybe the same favorite TV show (j/k) then their is no reason it could not work regardless of the status of both people.

   
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

tendai

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 10:07:40 AM »
1.  i think it works coz u have less worries about infecting your partner and therefore no guilt if it does happen and u have that in common and it can strengthen your bond
2.  yes it does limit your choices but i look at it like deciding not to go out with someone who drinks for example. just as long as the two are prepared to deal with all the problems and issues involved with HIV
but i totally agree with you

Offline pozguy75

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 12:05:45 PM »
I think sereosorting is a safety net...

It gives those of us who are positive a sense of control over our lives. You see, when I approach a guy, there is this terrible not in my stomach because I know when I end up disclosing my status, the potential of that guy rejecting me is HUGE. So, to spare the hurt and the unintentional guilt thrust upon us, I would rather seek out another pozzie...does it limit the prospects of finding that one true love...I am not sure...yet.
Dx 2005
ATRIPLA

Offline poet

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 12:41:42 PM »
Hi.  I started a thread about this after I read the article in POZ, so if you want to check out the posts there as well, you may catch some initial replies: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8119.0 Best, Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 02:11:45 PM »
Do I think it works?   Depends on what ya mean by that.   If it truly worked I wouldn't have ended up positive last year.

As far as if you are referring to dating.   I've been in a mixed relationship with a negative partner so I'm open to that again.   Our relationship failed for other reasons than HIV.

While I can see why many positive people would choose to date only other positive clearly that does limit my options so I'm not going to do that.   

I've dated a couple of positive guys since my relationship ended.   No major difference.   

Clearly, in a mixed status relationship you have some challenges.   I know initially and at times I felt some anxiety over having to be making sure things were safer and always having to be responsible.    Not always the easiest thing to do when you're in the heat of the moment and had a few drinks.   Other than those few times I didn't see it as a huge ordeal.

I'm not opposed to dating a positive guy either; however, I do have a several friends who are Pos. that won't bother dating other pos guys for a variety of reasons.

Love to hear what others experiences have been.
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline marc11864

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 02:57:22 PM »
I have to agree with Wesley. On what level? For the purpose of limiting HIV transmission, narrowing your attraction to someone down to their HIV status would certainly make sense if we were all wearing the Scarlet letter. But we aren't. There's just no way to determine the honesty or integrity of the other person at those beginning stages. Not to mention their own awareness. That takes time.

That in mind, while I was negative I have dated admittedly positive men and now that I am positive, I am currently dating someone negative.

I think other factors are much more important in choosing a partner, whether it be for a potential long-term relationship or just a one night stand if you are inclined to it. More to the point, I don't think that we ever really choose whom we fall in love with, we simply do or do not.

Can you imagine yourself saying to someone, "MMmmmm, what drew me to him was his Viral load?".

On a side note AustinWesley I visited your MySpace page and I loved the YouTube video that sh@nnon sent you on Gay Love. Kudos!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 03:34:23 PM by marc11864 »
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2007, 03:09:08 PM »
If it is just a hook up, then poz only guys.  However if I am looking for a relationship I am not going to limit it to only other positive guys, I have other deal breakers that are more important to me in deciding whether to date someone.  The HIV thing can be dealt with, some things can't.

Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2007, 03:19:02 PM »
I married a negative girl.  First person I told.  Lucky?  Prolly.  I say fuck it all date who you are attracted to tell when the time is right and let the virus fall where it may!
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2007, 03:25:35 PM »
I agree Marc.    I'm opposed to any such public campaign such as the recent ones in California which were promoting sero sorting by once again using marketing stunts that make HIV a gay disease.   That's like the Leper colonies or the Nazi's system of spreading hatred and I think any such campaign is at best dangerous.   In fact, any campaign like that would only promote more stigma and violence causing people to hide their status even more.

Uh, I'll get off my soapbox cause I don't think that was what this thread was referring to, but rather relationships.

I've got to admit that unfortunately so many of the openly HIV+ guys I've met seem to have so many other issues that I wouldn't date them.  Looking at it like that if I was to only seek out another positive guy (weeding out the whackos) my dating options are very limited so if anyone knows of a great poz. guy that's available leme know.

Unless one comes along I will continue to date whover.    I feel strongly that I am not going to fall in love with someone's virus, but with the person.  
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline woodshere

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2007, 03:31:13 PM »
....I've got to admit that unfortunately so many of the openly HIV+ guys I've met seem to have so many other issues that I wouldn't date them........

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, SO TRUE!!!!

I feel strongly that I am not going to fall in love with someone's virus, but with the person.  

Agree.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline marc11864

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2007, 03:45:24 PM »
Another example to ponder; my sister dated and married a guy who had juvenile diabetes. It is a condition that on some levels is akin to having HIV. And there were definitely major rocky points that stemmed specifically from that which resulted in their becoming divorced.

So what happened?

Did my sister say, "AUUUUUGH!!!, these juvenile diabetes people drive me CRAZY!!! From now on, I'll only date someone who doesn't have diabetes!"

Well, yeah actually she did say that...  ;D

But, she ultimately wound up meeting my current brother-in-law and she had a baby with him and they've been married now since 1998. And guess what... he too has diabetes.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2007, 05:24:46 PM »
I serosort.  It works for me.  I don't have the patience to educate negative guys about what is and is not safe sex.  And, frankly, I'd had enough sex with negative guys that I have come to realize that I don't particularly enjoy being treated like either a service boy or typhoid Mary.  Thanks, but no thanks. 

As far as working... it doesn't protect negative guys.  The idea that it could is simply laughable.  In order for it to work, EVERYONE  would have to be tested and EVERYONE would have to be honest.    So, if the goal is to reduce HIV transmissions, it would be, and is a complete and miserable failure.

As far as keeping us poz guys sane... hell yeah it works.

As far as limiting the choices of whom you love.  Well, let's be real here... we make choices every day about those things.  I am not particularly concerned that mister right is going to come trundling along on his white pony with an HIV negative cape and sweep my poz ass of my feet.  I am HIV positive.  It sucks, but it's life.  And I am happy with how my relationships have gone.  If someone negative happened to come along and he was completely baggage free and could provide me with a lifetime supply of viagra so I could actually wear a condom with some amount of efficacy, then we might have something to talk about here.

Serosorting is for us poz guys... for those of us who like knowing the other guy is not going to become infected because of me.  And, it's so that we don't have to feel like the other guy is nervous or worried or any number of other issues that come up.    Besides, I have yet to meet a negative guy who was concerned enough with his health to put down his cocktail and stupid pack of cigarettes and go mt biking or hiking with me.  Yeah, it seems that HIV is pretty much the catalyst for many gay men to get their shit together. 
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline med forum

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 06:35:52 AM »
I agree with Wesley when he states that he opposes such a campaign like the one that started recently in San Francisco....as long as two people are willing to work through any and all cards that they are dealt with coupled with honesty, trust, understanding, etc. then there's no reason why the relationship could not work regardless of status.
I am opposed to this public campaign because I think that there is a rather fine line being drawn and could be very dangerous in how people view this. It almost seems to me like this would create more stigma? Also, how would you know that you could trust someone when they are saying that they either are positive or not? Maybe they weren't even tested, who knows?
Everyone can look at serosorting in a very different way but I just feel that
it shouldn't be a public campaign. One of the main reasons behind this initiative is to get more people talking publicly about HIV and AIDS  and getting tested.....is that really happening? I mean I think society as a whole needs to get smacked across the head so that we all get on the same basic page that this is not a "gay" disease or a "poor" community disease or black and white or yellow and green disease. Of course there is less stigma out there than say several years ago but people are still igorant to the fact that any living person on this planet is capable of contracting this.
Uuuhhhggg....I can go on and on!

What else do you think?
Peace & health

Offline antibody

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 01:31:09 PM »
my boyfriend of 4 years is negative and i am positive. it just worked out that way. i tested positive right before we met and he has been there with me through it all. He has never made me feel dirty or guilty for carrying this virus. we have safe sex that keeps getting better the longer we are together. i can't pretend the fear of infecting him isn't there but all we have to do is use condoms. so serosorting works and magnetic couples can make it work too.
Timbuk      <50/ 794  CD4 10/06 
                 <50/ 1096 CD4 3/07
                 <40/ 1854 CD4 4/09

Started Atripla  7/14/06
Switched to boosted Reyataz Truvada 3/28/07

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Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2007, 01:41:54 PM »
I completely agree Med.   That San Francisco deal was outrageous.  I think it would only cause less people to get tested and the last thing we need is to revisit the 80's.

I think the stigma is alive and well.   It's pretty obvious.   Most people don't even have a picture of themselves on here for fear of being identified I guess.   I'm not suggesting they should or shouldn't.   I just think it's indicative of the current state of affairs.

Sero sorting doesn't work on a broad scale and never will.   The vast majority of my friends and aquintances who I know are positive aren't limiting their interests to just other positive people.   Perhaps it's a new generation gap.   I don't know.

Just the word bugs me.

Last year my HIV doc met my partner and I and he said we were a fast growing minority.   I think he's got a point.
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline poet

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2007, 03:59:45 PM »
I brought serosorting to the table at the Service Coordination Collaborative today, a meeting of clinicians, staff members, 'clients,' etc. and the look across the table at the non-clients was completely blank: what was I talking about?  I will be interested to see whether our harm reduction director heard the term used by the CDC last week during its meetings.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline ajm_ldn

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2007, 04:21:11 PM »
My boyfriend of one year (recently broke up) was negative and our mixed status definitely contributed to damaging our sex life.  Even though we always praticed "safer" sex, the thought of somehow infecting him really reduced my enjoyment.  I just couldn't let him suck me at all.  And after a while, I got tired of being a bottom.  (What if the condom leaked, and we didn't notice? = I didn't want to fuck him.)

Of course I wouldn't turn down love if it shows up as a negative guy any more than I would have back when I was neg and met a poz guy.  I'd just likely have to settle for a less exciting sex life.  But to be totally honest, I'd really rather date and fall in love with another poz guy.  That's my ideal scenario.  Other bonus is I don't like condoms and would not want to use them with a poz boyfriend, unless he insisted.

Offline FiercenBed

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2007, 05:58:13 PM »
8 year 'open' relationship here. hez neg. as iv posted before i made him go & get tested immediatly after my diagnosis...so that proves to me safe sex works. thank god he was neg; i couldnt have taken the both of us being as miserable as i was starting meds.

i get the impression....no change that.... he really dosnt understand hiv. the medical and mental impact.  he just kinda ignores it. ill bring up @ dinner bout a vist to the doc and hell just skip to another topic. now if i force him to listen to something he will and ill get support, but i feel he dosnt know what he is supporting. sounds odd i know

itz like therez this whole new part of me i cant share w/ him.....or he dosnt want to share w/ me

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2007, 06:12:57 PM »
1.  Does serosorting work?  Only insofaras people are knowledgeable and truthful
about their status. 

2.  Do I think serosorting is limiting?  Yes -- any criteria you use limits your
choices.  On the one hand, I prefer meeting positive guys because I don't have
to worry about how they will react to or understand about being HIV+.  On the
other hand, I feel like the pool of guys with the potential for a relationship is
already limited enough -- limiting myself to only positive guys makes me feel like
my choices are painfully limited (especially since I don't do well with long-distance
relationships).

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline newt

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2007, 06:33:12 PM »
I think it works for a shag but if you fall for someone you fall, and vice versa

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline mjmel

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2007, 06:52:29 PM »
I have serosorted since 1989 when I discovered I was HIV+. Wouldn't consider a negative status person for a sexual encounter or partner.
I know it sounds kinda odd, but I was SO VERY MUCH relieved to learn the person I was interested in getting to know intimately, was POZ also.
It has worked beautifully for us these last 11 yrs....and counting. That POZ status applied for any threesomes we've had, too.

Offline koi1

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2007, 08:04:19 PM »
Serosorting,

I think this is segregation. However, I respect the right of someone who is HIV- to want an HIV negative lifepartner, as an HIV+ partner has the right to choose -+. In the end loving someone for who they are is what matters and the people who are able to see beyond serostatus have a higher chance of contracting love than those who limit their dating pool.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
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Offline egello

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2007, 04:04:13 AM »
my b/f and I have been having bareback sex since we met, and he has gotten tested right when I was coming down with thrush, and he is negative.

so that says something about safe sex and hiv transmission, doesn't it....
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
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Offline med forum

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2007, 07:16:10 AM »
Does anyone know someone who went to the Serosorting meeting or conference that was held in San Fran on Thursday? I'm wondering what came out of it? I read that it was open to the public......
Peace & health

Offline poet

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2007, 07:59:42 PM »
I can't answer the question above, but I did notice that the discussion started, if I remember this correctly, back in 2005.  I was going through posts at some point this week and found a link (which I have since lost :).  So here I was thinking sero-sorting was this brand new concept.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline pozinbama

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2007, 08:12:42 PM »
There was an article in Poz about serosorting and poz to poz barebacking among gay men. In it they stated numbers from a clinic in Seattle where 4.5% of the people that came to be tested who used no protection tested positive, 2.6% of those that used serosorting as protection tested positive, and 1.5% of people that used condoms as protection tested positive....

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2007, 09:01:33 PM »
my b/f and I have been having bareback sex since we met, and he has gotten tested right when I was coming down with thrush, and he is negative.

so that says something about safe sex and hiv transmission, doesn't it....

I certainly think that, if you believe your BF is not at risk from unprotected sex, then you are lucky indeed to find someone as invested in denialism as yourself.

I hope that, since your diagnosis, you choose condoms. If not, it's a matter if when he will seroconvert, not if. And I hope that witnessing your forays into opportunistic infections will prove an object lesson to the both of you.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Bucko

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Re: Serosorting
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2007, 02:36:44 AM »
I serosort.  It works for me.  I don't have the patience to educate negative guys about what is and is not safe sex.  And, frankly, I'd had enough sex with negative guys that I have come to realize that I don't particularly enjoy being treated like either a service boy or typhoid Mary.  Thanks, but no thanks. 

As far as working... it doesn't protect negative guys.  The idea that it could is simply laughable.  In order for it to work, EVERYONE  would have to be tested and EVERYONE would have to be honest.    So, if the goal is to reduce HIV transmissions, it would be, and is a complete and miserable failure.

As far as keeping us poz guys sane... hell yeah it works.

As far as limiting the choices of whom you love.  Well, let's be real here... we make choices every day about those things.  I am not particularly concerned that mister right is going to come trundling along on his white pony with an HIV negative cape and sweep my poz ass of my feet.  I am HIV positive.  It sucks, but it's life.  And I am happy with how my relationships have gone.  If someone negative happened to come along and he was completely baggage free and could provide me with a lifetime supply of viagra so I could actually wear a condom with some amount of efficacy, then we might have something to talk about here.

Serosorting is for us poz guys... for those of us who like knowing the other guy is not going to become infected because of me.  And, it's so that we don't have to feel like the other guy is nervous or worried or any number of other issues that come up.    Besides, I have yet to meet a negative guy who was concerned enough with his health to put down his cocktail and stupid pack of cigarettes and go mt biking or hiking with me.  Yeah, it seems that HIV is pretty much the catalyst for many gay men to get their shit together. 


This sums up anything I could have written, from precisely my perspective.

Brent
(Who borrowed two cents to join the discussion)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

 


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