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Author Topic: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?  (Read 31619 times)

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Offline Ihavehope

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  • Yes, I'm a cry baby, AND WHAT?
Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2007, 02:50:34 PM »

Why disregard using protection even if you are HIV positive? Don't you guys worry about other STD's and Hepatitis? Hepatitis C can kill you quicker than HIV if you are co-infected. Having HIV is enough for me, I am not gonna run around more docs appointments than I need just because I believe Superinfection is not real. If you wanna risk it then be my guest, let us know how it went.
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Ann

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2007, 02:52:53 PM »
Boo
scotttt
ACinKC
philly
ihavehope

The five of you have continued to hijack and in some cases, flame, in this thread despite  Andy's warning.

Do you guys seriously think everyone wants to wade through your hissy fits and one-upmanships? Superinfection and/or re-infection is a serious subject. Have some regard for the other users of this website or you'll end up with a time out.

NO FURTHER WARNINGS WILL BE ISSUED TO ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. If the senseless hijacks and flames continue, the person responsible will be given a time out. Enough is enough already.

Ann
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:55:08 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2007, 02:55:25 PM »
Why haven't Koi1 and Scott ALSO received warnings.  I'd like to know that.  If I'm to get one, than so should they.

Follow the timeline of the insults in the thread.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2007, 03:02:59 PM »
This is a pretty interesting subject something that needs a lot more scientific investigation as well by the sounds of it.  So am I right in thinking there are basically thought to be two scenarios super infection which is extremely rare and involves developing an aggressive highly drug resistant strain.  And reinfection which theoretically has the potential to be a drug resistant strain?  Or have a put that far too simply?  I'd like to think I will always have protected sex no matter who with purely because of the very unpleasant experience of having syphilis and THOSE injections.  Saying this though as of yet i've not been in a situation where I would have to choose so I can't say that's what I would definately do.

Chris
Diagnosed 11/05

"Life is too important to be taken seriously" Oscar Wilde

Offline Ann

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2007, 03:42:15 PM »
philly,

They were warned and you'd know that if you'd bothered yourself to read Andy's warning. They stopped the crap. You kept it going. Keep it up, keep hijacking this thread, and you'll be timed out. If you want to moan about this further, use the report button instead of continuing the hijack.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2007, 03:44:49 PM »
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Read and weep, no William and Mary.  Sorry to be so petty but......


BTW these are the rankings of the National, read top schools.

Offline ryeguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2007, 03:53:12 PM »
Like oh My GOd.... Just all of you get over this topic. In the end we all decide for ourselves and no one has the right to judge. Safe or unsafe this has become like to 1993  backwoods  hickvill kindergšrten.

Offline Ann

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2007, 03:55:33 PM »
 
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Read and weep, no William and Mary.  Sorry to be so petty but......


BTW these are the rankings of the National, read top schools.

scott,

What did you not understand about my post four posts above yours? I said if you continued the hijack, you would be timed out.

See you in a week.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2007, 04:00:38 PM »
One person on here emailed their feelings.   I thought I'd share that person's thoughts and see what you think?

"Oh hey about SUPERINFECTION -  reinfection is real, superinfection is possibly sensationalism from the media - just another name. But there's little research on it I think because the reinfected progress to AIDS quickly and then the morgue.     But that's just my thinking - i'm talking out of my a&% again. Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2007, 04:02:25 PM »
The last line is the most poignant one. 
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline hussy_24

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2007, 04:08:23 PM »
i believe you can be infected with another strain of HIV, yes, there are what hiv-1, hiv-2? is that right?

but i like to think about it like this, from the time i was infected to the time i was diagnosed i did have a lot of sex, it was summer time after all..., so theoretically i could have been exposed to other strains even before diagnosis.

and any time you have sex after diagnosis there is of course a risk of being reinfected/superinfected, so theres not really anything you can do about it unless your in a stable relationship, everyone else who is more liberal/casual will always run the risk, and the risk can come from unprotected oral sex too and a gay man never (from my own experience) uses condoms for oral so for us its either take a vow of celibacy or just run the risk.

i wouldnt want more strains/reinfection/superinfection, but its so easy to get, theoretically, that you cant worry about it, taking a vow of celibacy would drive me more round the bend, but only from my own experience as if i could have mr right i would have had him before i was hiv and always feel like i wont ever find anyone now so casual is my only option, and yes lol am only 24 and thinking like this lol.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2007, 04:12:29 PM »
"Oh hey about SUPERINFECTION -  reinfection is real, superinfection is possibly sensationalism from the media - just another name. But there's little research on it I think because the reinfected progress to AIDS quickly and then the morgue.     But that's just my thinking - i'm talking out of my a&% again. Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."
I would like to see the evidence that reinfection automatically leads to fast progression to AIDS and death.

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2007, 04:39:49 PM »
"Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."

Amen to that!
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2007, 04:44:36 PM »
Dear All,

This is a subject which comes up regularly in the HIV world. About two years ago there was some headlining stuff about a case in New York. It still remains an unresolved issue.

What is especially troubling about it is that the idea of superinfection, though it remains essentially insufficiently documented, is used to re-ignite fears (and judgements) about promiscuity and about gay sex in particular. As we know, anti-gay judgements are all to easily ignited. As with so much of the history of the epidemic, this isn't just about science. It's also about prejudice and politics.

In the mix as well of this situation are the better documented concerns on the part of the NYC Dept. of Health about the role that crystal meth use in particular plays in unprotected intercourse. So a number of factors come together around this question. Thus far there remains insufficient proof regarding superinfection. What we do know is that the use of crystal meth unquestionably encourages unsafe sex and that unsafe sex can lead to new infections as well as vulnerability to other (and serious) STDs.

Solid proof of superinfection remains an open question. More serious study is needed to determine what is really true about it and its effect on disease progression.

That's how I see where it's at.  

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:47:12 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2007, 04:47:08 PM »
I still haven't heard any reply on these ideas of using HIV pills to prevent a negative partner from getting HIV?   Here's another story.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14171323

In this case, they are using Viread

So, wouldn't it seem that if they are trying to market this to uninfected people that it's likely the drugs in the same class would also have a similar effect thereby preventing reinfection?


« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:49:35 PM by AustinWesley »
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2007, 04:49:34 PM »
I not only tempted fate.  I barebacked him.  He was a lousy lay though.  

I come down on the side that there are overly sensationalist news reports and from burglars within our own community which have an agenda of their own.

Reinfections, superinfections... it's all pish posh to me...and that's not a new spice girl.

Don't buy it. Don't beLIEve it and will go on barebacking with other pozzies as the Adventureô continues.   Of course, my adventure is pretty much going home to snuggle with my puppy nowadays.  

I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live.

edit:  austin... there has been some exploration into the idea of using a pre-exposure pill much like PEP is used after an exposure... but pep is done for 30 days and people, notably club/drug users, have been known to take these to enjoy a carefree night on the town.

They are deluding themselves.  It doesn't work.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:53:01 PM by DingoBoi »

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2007, 04:51:21 PM »
"I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live."

It's easier said than done.


Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2007, 04:51:42 PM »
Using a condom is much cheaper and probably more effective than taking HIV meds to prevent HIV.  I don't see anyone realistically paying HIV drug prices, (and I certainly don't see any insurance companies/government footing the bill), to prevent HIV.  Plus why deal with the side effects (and toxicity) of taking HIV meds, if you aren't HIV positive?

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2007, 04:55:59 PM »
Well, I know when the first story broke my partner who was negative considered it although it wasn't approved yet.   Indeed, it wasn't going to be covered by insurance and the cost was $600/mo.   Had it been an option I think he would have gone for it.

Anyways, aside from that my point is that if Viread prevents infection wouldn't those other drugs in the same class likely do the same thing making reinfection a non issue?

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2007, 04:59:10 PM »
"I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live."

It's easier said than done.

You're right.  You are completely right...

That's the thing about not living through fear... no one said it would be easy.  But I'll tell you a secret... it's a lot easier on you than being fearful all the time. 

And I'm being completely serious. 
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2007, 04:59:38 PM »
"I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live."

It's easier said than done.


It's pretty easy.  I drink alot. :)   Though I'm not sure what context your are responding in.  

The fear of realistically getting reinfection or superinfection does not exist in my world so I am not afraid of it.  It's not rocket science.   Not sure if you were responding to that or something my general like.. all we have to fear is fear itself kinda hoohaa or being afraid of the 'future'.  

I'll tell you the ending... we all die.  Sorry if that spoiled the story for you.  I'll always advocate quality over quantity.   Besides, I'm too vain to get all wrinkly.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #121 on: February 12, 2007, 05:02:48 PM »
Anyways, aside from that my point is that if Viread prevents infection wouldn't those other drugs in the same class likely do the same thing making reinfection a non issue?
All HIV meds, not just those in the same class as Viread, could prevent reinfection/superinfection....and by that, I mean, if it reduced your viral load (preferably to undetectable) then there isn't much virus to transmit to someone else (your viral load plays a big part in determine how infecteous you are).  I don't think you can conclude it would make reinfection a "non issue", cause folks are not always undetectable.  But yes, being on HIV meds does help to lower the risk of reinfection/superinfection.

$600 a month, plus the added benefit of side effects, just to prevent HIV seems irrational to me.  Buy a beamer and a monthly box of condoms instead.   ;D

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2007, 05:05:18 PM »
After reading all the posts that are about the subject, I have a hard time,wrapping my head around it. From what I am seeing here, I don't feel it is worth the risk to go unprotected. It seems like there are too many unknown variables. Yes, love is grand and it would be great to find another to be  in a +/+ relationship but if you loved someone wouldn't you want them to be around as long as possible? Wouldn't that make you want to be protected? I may be wrong in saying this but it seems like most is going on how nice it would be to just fuck w/o a condom and the hell with the risks because you are in love. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but just saying.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2007, 05:14:09 PM »
All HIV meds, not just those in the same class as Viread, could prevent reinfection/superinfection....and by that, I mean, if it reduced your viral load (preferably to undetectable) then there isn't much virus to transmit to someone else (your viral load plays a big part in determine how infecteous you are).  I don't think you can conclude it would make reinfection a "non issue", cause folks are not always undetectable.  But yes, being on HIV meds does help to lower the risk of reinfection/superinfection.

$600 a month, plus the added benefit of side effects, just to prevent HIV seems irrational to me.  Buy a beamer and a monthly box of condoms instead.   ;D

Cliff,
LOL, I never said he was rational ; )   It wasn't my idea and I'd never try to convince a neg. partner to take HIV meds instead of using safe sex.  Thank you for your opinions.

Queen,
In a perfect world everyone would have safe sex, but since we know that doesn't happen I think the issue is a valid one.  And yes, it's nice to be able to read actual related information finally ;)   Thanks Ann!  ; )

Andy,
I tend to agree with you that some of these sensationalized stories are slanted and used to demonize gay men.    Notice we've never heard of a straight person having a superinfection of HIV.   Something to think about!
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2007, 05:15:35 PM »
Quote
Yes, love is grand and it would be great to find another to be  in a +/+ relationship but if you loved someone wouldn't you want them to be around as long as possible? Wouldn't that make you want to be protected?

For two positive people on treatment with consistently undetectable viral load the risk is so small (like a fraction of a % to zero) I think it's neither here nor there.  If UK guidelines on conception can recommend that, under certain circumstances eg undetectable viral load, no coinfections, a positive-negative couple can use a natural method for conception because the risk of transmission is much less than a fraction of a %, this must also appliy to reinfection. If it was common you;d expect it to happen at least as often as 1st time infections, or fairly often and, well, at most a few dozen (reported) possible cases that have affected treatment badly in 1.3 million+ HIV cases in the developed world....

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:17:18 PM by newt »
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2007, 05:42:20 PM »
Matt mentioned no one he knows in a pos/pos relationship is using condoms.  Frankly, I don't know any either.  


Heck, Wesley... I've been hard pressed to find poz guys who use condoms at all with other poz guys.  There are a few I know who 'talk' about it, but rarely practice it, at least from what I can surmise.   
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2007, 05:43:35 PM »

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt


I'd have to echo this sentiment.  Each of us has to decide for himself what is an acceptable level of risk.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2007, 07:16:08 PM »
For two positive people on treatment with consistently undetectable viral load the risk is so small (like a fraction of a % to zero) I think it's neither here nor there.  If UK guidelines on conception can recommend that, under certain circumstances eg undetectable viral load, no coinfections, a positive-negative couple can use a natural method for conception because the risk of transmission is much less than a fraction of a %, this must also appliy to reinfection. If it was common you;d expect it to happen at least as often as 1st time infections, or fairly often and, well, at most a few dozen (reported) possible cases that have affected treatment badly in 1.3 million+ HIV cases in the developed world....

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt


Thanks for the input, Newt. I hope you can tolerate my questions. Ok, now if both people were consistently undetectable, I can see the low risk. Here comes the what if, what if that was to change in one of the partners, maybe not a drastic change but a change nonetheless, wouldn't it then put them at risk?

Austin~~

Yeah, I know it's not a Walgreen's commercial of a perfect world. Maybe it's just my thinking but I just feel that when you are already poz you got enough going against you. Why would you make it worse but possibly infecting yourself again. No matter how small the risk. Isn't that like playing roulette? But then as Newt says "people must make up their own minds".
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2007, 07:16:39 PM »
Heck, Wesley... I've been hard pressed to find poz guys who use condoms at all with other poz guys.  There are a few I know who 'talk' about it, but rarely practice it, at least from what I can surmise.   

Yeah that's pretty much what I've found and I have to admit that since diagnosis I have mainly had unprotected sex with other poz guys.  I didn't gain any resistance during that time, I don't know if that's luck or statistics but I do know I felt very relieved when I knew I could start on meds with the full range open to me.  

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV.  That, and the thought that one day I might be unlucky and get another strain is seriously making me consider how I approach my sex life from this point onwards.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2007, 07:35:29 PM »
Thanks for the input, Newt. I hope you can tolerate my questions. Ok, now if both people were consistently undetectable, I can see the low risk. Here comes the what if, what if that was to change in one of the partners, maybe not a drastic change but a change nonetheless, wouldn't it then put them at risk?

Austin~~

Yeah, I know it's not a Walgreen's commercial of a perfect world. Maybe it's just my thinking but I just feel that when you are already poz you got enough going against you. Why would you make it worse but possibly infecting yourself again. No matter how small the risk. Isn't that like playing roulette? But then as Newt says "people must make up their own minds".

Hey Queen,

I don't want to give out the impression that I'm somehow endorsing unprotected casual sex.   I had my one partner tested for everything under the sun cause the last thing I wanted was a secondary issue.  Of course, that was right after my diag. so I was ubber paranoid.   I guess after learning more today on the benefit of meds preventing reinfection or transmission that is one more reason to consider them sooner for me.  It would definitely help me with anxiety should I end up in another mixed relationship or any for that matter.

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2007, 07:42:16 PM »
I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV.  That, and the thought that one day I might be unlucky and get another strain is seriously making me consider how I approach my sex life from this point onwards.

I don't blame you for being worried about hep.  or syphilis.   or all the other nasties that hang around in our nether regions.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #131 on: February 12, 2007, 07:44:01 PM »

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV. 

Plus, Hep C= No more drinking.  Ever.

I am completely not kidding when I say that's enough to make me vigilant.

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline marc11864

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #132 on: February 12, 2007, 07:45:37 PM »
Dare I weigh in on any of this?

These are the only things that I'll weigh in on at the moment... I don't get online much now, I can't afford a time out.  ;D

RE: Wesley's initial post
Quote
...news stories about some HIV pill that could be prescribed to a negative partner (I forget the name)?

While there are a number of therapies that are currently being looked at, last year the drugs most often cited were Truvada or Tenofovir. Both are being looked at extensively as a course of PReP (PRe Exposure Propylaxisis). This as opposed to PEP (Post Exposure Prophylaxsis). Information about initial studies, which were on a very limited scale are shown in the attached image. Additional studies sponsored by the CDC and NIH involving Heterosexual men and women, MSMs as well as IV drug users are expected to be completed between 2008 and 2010. These trials, currently underway or soon to begin will include Thailand, the U.S., Botswana, and Ecuador/Peru. For additional information... GOOGLE IT! :P

RE: Reply # 1
Quote
I am no Dr. but I remember that about 2 years ago progressed from a fresh infection to Aids and death within 6 months. All drug combos failed on him and this was all proven.

The patient did develop what is called 3-DCR HIV or 3 Drug Combination Resistant HIV. According to confirmed data the patient was infected with multiple versions of already drug resistant HIV. Most likely this happened while engaging in unprotected anal receptive sex with multiple partners while high on methamphetamine. It is also confirmed that he indeed quickly progressed to having AIDS however, there was a newer class of drug that he was not resistant to and was responding well to. I can find no confirmation anywhere that he died.

Anyone have an aspirin? I've got a headache now from havin to read so many replies to a thread started within the last two days  ::)


[attachment deleted by admin]
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #133 on: February 12, 2007, 07:51:32 PM »
Marc, I've heard of using certain meds in that regard as a solution for negative partners of poz people to use as PreP.  But I always thought it seemed way too bulky in nature.  I mean, poz people have a hard enough time dealing with the side-effects, and some of the side effects of these drugs can be pretty nasty...

The only reason we put up with them is because it keeps our viral loads at bay and we need them... I just don't see that being practical on a mass scale for HIV- people... I wish it was... but I don't see how it could be worked out...   

Edited to Add: Especially in light of the cost of these drugs...
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2007, 08:00:40 PM »
Hello Austin,

If you read the following link from the lessons, it may or may not help to answer some of your questions.
Make sure to read the entire page.

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/718_4739.shtml



Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 25 mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


Diagnosed positive in 1985,.. In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started on  HAART on October 24th, 2003.

 As of 8/25/14,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2007, 09:50:21 PM »
Hey Ray,

Thank you for shedding some light on the subject.  I'd encourage everyone who's interested to read that information.   

It didn't answer all my questions related to the topic namely the pos/pos transmission issue if both were on meds and undectable.

However, it did cover a lot of the confusing basics and clarified some definitions up.

Thanks again,

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline marc11864

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2007, 12:08:51 AM »
Well Benj,

The way I see it, why should we have all the fun?  ;D

Seriously though IMHO, this is food for thought. I think most people would have a much better understanding of  this aspect of our lives and what it is like to be HIV+ if they chose to take these meds at least for a one month period.

And of course I still fantasize about a utopian ideal where health care is afforded to everyone regardless of income or geographic location  ::)

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but maybe availing these meds on a grander scale would drive the costs down more too.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #137 on: February 13, 2007, 12:24:24 AM »
Well Benj,

The way I see it, why should we have all the fun?  ;D

Seriously though IMHO, this is food for thought. I think most people would have a much better understanding of  this aspect of our lives and what it is like to be HIV+ if they chose to take these meds at least for a one month period.

And of course I still fantasize about a utopian ideal where health care is afforded to everyone regardless of income or geographic location  ::)

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but maybe availing these meds on a grander scale would drive the costs down more too.

You're definitely right... it is food for thought.  And it's a very interesting proposition... but I do wonder about the willingness of HIV- people to know what it's like to be poz... of course, if people are in a relationship, it could be different.  But until the toxicity of the meds is knocked down substantially further... I don't know if any doctor would dream of putting a neggie on them.  And God... what insurance company would cover a neggie for those meds?

And speaking of...

I too fantasize about that day that comes when the US institutes universal health care... oh God, do I fantasize about that day!

And we should have more fun because... we're um... I'm gonna go with awesome.  Yes.  Awesome.   ;)

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline ndrew

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2007, 12:35:36 AM »
The term "super infection" is such a meme, so sticky and overripe... I hate the media.

Drew

Offline marc11864

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #139 on: February 13, 2007, 08:59:11 AM »
"How's your infection today?"

"It's SUPER, thanks for asking!"



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Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2007, 09:46:46 AM »
The term "super infection" is such a meme, so sticky and overripe... I hate the media.


Hate the medical community going back well before the acknowledgement of HIV, not the media, for the term "super-infection," since doctors created to express a real phenomenon.

If your beef is with "super-bug" or "super-virus," the blame may lie with public health officials and/or researchers, as well.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline David_CA

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #141 on: February 13, 2007, 07:50:38 PM »
Forget Keisha, where is SD Girl, Aidsmeds own reigning queen of mean.  I suspect she might be flying on her broom somewhere over San Diego as we speak, or should I say, type.

She is always good at chewing someone a new one whenever that person stands up against the group think so prevalent on this website. 

Some of you sound like a bunch of trash talking seventh grade girls, trying to sound so hard core, when in fact you are merely insecure children hiding from your own boogeymen.

I love when the crew of Aupoint and Silly Philly strap on board.  You girls don't have a lot going on in your personal life do you, that is, to have so much time to troll this website.  Many of us are growing bored with your rantings.


Now what the hell does this have to do with superinfection? 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #142 on: February 13, 2007, 08:17:06 PM »
As far as 2 hiv positives people having sex on a ha art therapy, ( I know I'm gonna get lynched for this but here it goes) as long as both viral loads are undetectable and both parties are on a ha art therapy I see little danger of a double infection or a supervirus evolving as the chances of infection with no or little viral load is nearly impossible.

No lynching from me, Ryeguy. ;)

Interesting hypothesis, but I for one wouldn't be willing to gamble to find out. To me it wouldn't be worth the risk.

I was advised early after diagnosis to take precautions against getting doubly- or re-infected, and that still makes the most sense to me.

Daniel

I still think this is the biggest issue that most don't talk about.   Having gone through all of the various opinions back and forth I was wondering if we had any couples out there who had an opinion on this?   

W
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #143 on: February 13, 2007, 08:19:56 PM »
My bf and I never use condoms.
I still have exactly the same strain i've always had.
So does he.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #144 on: February 13, 2007, 08:21:56 PM »
Yes, but do one of you have a virus that's mutated to everything but fuzeon and the other one is fine with all medications?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #145 on: February 13, 2007, 08:26:35 PM »
I'm on meds, he's not.

Each of us determines his own acceptable level of risk.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline lydgate

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #146 on: February 13, 2007, 08:38:03 PM »
Plus, Hep C= No more drinking.  Ever.

I am completely not kidding when I say that's enough to make me vigilant.



The site's lesson on Hep C transmission:

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/1657_9985.shtml
Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #147 on: February 13, 2007, 08:38:45 PM »
I'm on meds, he's not.

Each of us determines his own acceptable level of risk.


I understand that, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything.  I'm just generally curious whether or not the situation I stated could actually MEDICALLY happen... more for my own information in the future.  I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  You used to hear about "re-infection" stuff all the time from doctors, and I don't think I've heard the term in the past few years.  Just wondering.

What you do in your personal life sexually while somewhat titillating and stuff doesn't really interesting me... we're all adults who are consenting.  Maybe my question in your case would be, if you had a virus that was totally mutated to all PI's and NNRTI's would you advise your partner who is positive, yet on no medication, to use a condom?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #148 on: February 13, 2007, 10:23:10 PM »
I am not expert enough to give such advice.  He's generally as informed about this subject as anyone and makes his own choices.   

I was on a cross infection study in Seattle for about eight years.  Like I said, I still have the same strain I started out with, and no others.  These results are not atypical, although I can't say they are conclusive.   I don't actually know.
*** if you google this issue and look at the studies, you will find the results to be inconclusive. ***

I am not trying to persuade this conversation one way or another.  I firmly believe that individuals need to make their own choices on this subject.  It is not my position to criticize anyone's choices regarding whether they use a condom with a poz partner or not. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 10:25:01 PM by dtwpuck »
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2007, 12:43:06 AM »
Let's be clear about a few things. The term "Superinfection" was not invented by the media. It is a virological term that has been incorrectly picked up by the media and has been banded around interchangeably with "Super virus". Superinfection, as newt said, means "on top of". Superinfection is where you repeatedly infect the same cell with more virus - be it the same strain or a different one. It's been around for longer than HIV. Sadly, with our ever hysterical media, this has been blown out of all proportion.

I have read papers in the journal of Virology that state cases of superinfection. However, they were from sex workers that have had frequent exposures. They know that the person has been infected with two different viruses as they came from different clades.

So what is the danger of superinfection? A single cell infected by two different HIV strains will allow viral recombination within that cell to produce something that wasn't around before. Superinfection has been blamed for hybrid HIV viruses - although I haven't read the data to support that. I guess the danger would be that if you were resistant to NNRTIs and were infected with a PI resistant virus they would recombine to make a virus resistant to both and deliver unwanted multidrug resistance. Indeed, you could argue that if you had mutations that gave low resistance to a drug and were superinfected with a virus containing mutations that augmented this mutation you could get drug resistance where it wasn't seen before.

However, what really is the risk? It's hard to quantify as the numbers of actual superinfections remains low - and often come from drug users or people who frequently have unprotected sex and are at multiple risks. What chance therefore of being superinfected and the two viruses conspiring to create a virus that is now resistant to something you were taking. Probably very low. However, there are documented cases of HIV superinfection and the relevance of this and frequency has to be determined. Only then can we quantify the risk to people getting multidrug resistance.

To answer Cliff's question, if you get superinfected with another virus does that mean you will die in 6 months. Probably not. Let's be clear about something. HIV mutates every day in millions of people. If it could come up with a combination that killed all people rapidly I believe it would have done so by now. Viruses produced from superinfection might be bad for a particular person based on their immune response to that HIV but it doesn't translate that this virus is a rapid killer.

I hope that clears up a few myths..

Rich
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

 


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