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Author Topic: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?  (Read 24724 times)

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Offline AustinWesley

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    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« on: February 11, 2007, 02:18:53 PM »
We've all read about superinfections or have heard personal stories of strains of the virus which are resistant to standard HAART treatments or that seem to progress rapidly.

I know there have been a few posts here recently about such cases in the news.   Is it media hype?   Or is it real?

I understand the concept of a person becoming resistant to standard medical therapies due to mutation of the virus etc.   But I'm not totally convinced there is a superviral infection.

Clearly, doctors advise safe sex even when both partners are positive, but to me it seems that if both partners were on meds that wouldn't the meds themselves act in a way as a sort of prophylactic?   In fact, last year there were news stories about some HIV pill that could be prescribed to a negative partner  (I forget the name)?

I've heard all sorts of theories and speculation.   I've even heard that perhaps some of these so called superinfections were likely people who went undiagnosed for so long.

I'm not sure what to think or believe anymore. 

One thing which does seem clear to me is that certain street drugs seem to act like a catalyst for HIV progression.   And, to me it would make sense that if someone was infected by a person who'd been on multiple HAART therapies that they could run an obvious risk of a resistance.  We know that from genotyping etc.

But is there really some new super virus? 

I don't know the answers or have a set opinion on all of these.    What does everyone else think about this subject?

« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 02:24:36 PM by AustinWesley »
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline ryeguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2007, 02:41:08 PM »
Superinfection.... I am no Dr. but I remember that about 2 years ago progressed from a fresh infection to Aids and death within 6 months. All drug combos failed on him and this was all proven. I guess he did have some kind of a super strain. The man was from New York but I don't remember his name.

As far as 2 hiv positives people having sex on a ha art therapy, ( I know I'm gonna get lynched for this but here it goes) as long as both viral loads are undetectable and both parties are on a ha art therapy I see little danger of a double infection or a supervirus evolving as the chances of infection with no or little viral load is nearly impossible. I Believe it has been proven on the other hand that when 2 viral strain come together they can take on each others traits and become much more vital and form a stronger virus and inherit drug resistance. To put it short I think two positive people having unsafe sex with a viral load to be a very bad idea, if both viral loads are undetectable then it may be something for the two too discuss. We are all grown up and responsible for ourselves.

As for the pill the day after, this is not always a specific pill, as far as I know this is a normal short ha art therapy which is taken as soon as possible after the exposure and then up to 1 month after.

Greetings from Berlin.

P.S. I read your myspace profile and laughed my ass off. I also lived in Hollywood between 1996 and 1998. I used to love the club firehouse and I remember a club hole in the wall called 7702, I got into allot of trouble there:-)

I especially like you attitude towards alc, and if one has to die your suggestion was a good one :-))

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 04:02:42 PM »
I have heard talk of superinfections. My old case manager was the one who brought it to my attention. I would guess that my strain is very tame, at least for now. Is this true that if 2 poz people w/ undetectable vl had unprotected sex it would be harder to pass it along to the other? Is there any proof to this or is this simply speculation? In any case, I think it would be something that both people should discuss. I think it would still be taking a chance. I'm interested to see where this thread goes.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 04:13:04 PM »
I'm just talkin' out my butt here... I think it is real, however I think it's rare.  We'd be hearing a LOT more about this if it was such a danger.

I read that paradoxically, our compromised immune systems which have produced HIV-antibodies actually confer a level of protection against new infections.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline dtwpuck

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  • дано мне тело, что мне делать с ним?
Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 05:00:18 PM »
Well, after ten years of being a rampant slut, I still have the same strain I've always had, and no other.
Guess the superinfection theory has a few... er.... holes.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 06:46:09 PM »
I asked both of my HIV doctors about it.

The female doc. who I just got rid of said we've seen a few incidents.   I didn't get the feeling she was being completely honest and wasn't really sure, but trying to scare me or something.   Air on the side of caution.

The other doc. who's not and ID doc, but has a lot more experience didn't seem particularly concerned about it.   The general feeling I got from him was that more of these difficult cases were the result of failure to adhere to various meds and some combo of rampant promiscuity ; )   I'm not quoting him cause I forget what he said exactly, but it went something like that.   

I know that he also said the risk was reduced the lower the viral load, but never eliminated.  I didn't ask him what he thought about unprotected sex between two individuals who were both undectable etc.   I guess for me personally if I happened to meet another pos. guy and was in a monogamous relationship I wouldn't be all that concerned and I'd probably just chance it.

To me I guess I'm really not all that concerned about some super virus or what not, I'm more concerned about all the other STDs out there that I wouldn't want to have with a compromised immune system.

Well, I guess we'll see who else weighs in. 

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline koi1

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 06:48:48 PM »
The jury is out on super infection, however just giving it to someone, or picking up a drug resistant strain is enough to discourage me from having unprotected sex with anyone. Drrug resistance is real, but we all know that.

Cases for super infection:

 a strain that is resistant to one or more classes of drugs. I think it is possible for a virus that is resistant to all classes of drugs, with the right conditions, to develop.

Cases of an aggressive strain that kills you in a fraction of the time if left untreated or even treated

The Seattle cases have all been linked to drug users who are prone to progressing very quickly to AIDES. Afterall, many people on this website have said that they progressed quickly to AIDS from drug abuse. It is said that one hit ecstasy can lower your cd4 count by the hundreds.

I would just be careful just in case. But you knew I would say that.

Hate to be Debbie Downer
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 06:50:23 PM by koi1 »
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 07:14:10 PM »
This might help you consider having unprotected sex with someone HIV+ with undetectable viral load.
This website has all the answers!
http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/1667_10825.shtml
And the article in Spanish from the Bingo Clinic (were I was diagnosed: Bingo!)
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/salud/terapia/antiviral/reduce/riesgos/concepcion/natural/parejas/VIH/elpepusoc/20060314elpepisal_7/Tes
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 07:20:40 PM by blondbeauty »
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 07:20:36 PM »
Thanks Blond,   I will ck that out.

I was just replying to Koi:

Hmm, I hadn't heard that about ecstasy, but about the only drug I ever do is smoke a little weed.   I don't think that counts as a drug ; )

But, the way you have defined some cases makes perfect sense to me.

Do you think it should be a major concern if your partner is on meds and you aren't?   

Like I said I don't claim to know any of the answers here and just for the record I'm not advocating unsafe sex.   In reality though most of us know what we are and aren't doing behind closed doors.

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline whizzer

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  • Posts: 363
Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 07:22:27 PM »
The article, and the study it was based on, concerned only penile/vaginal sex.  I would not draw strong inference from that to anal sex.


Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 07:25:46 PM »
I donīt think weed can be considered a harmaful drug if used in moderation. It is far more natural than cigarretes and does not contain any toxic additives. If your partner is undectable but you are not you might pass to your partner your strain if that starin is resistant to the meds your partner is taking. Remember that the risk is below 1% but not zero...and as whizzer has pointed out receptive anal sex is much more risky than vaginal sex (object of the study).
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 07:27:16 PM »
It is said that one hit ecstasy can lower your cd4 count by the hundreds.

I smell a big bunch of anti-drug propaganda BS with this one.

I had a nice coke addiction for months that didn't effect my viral load or CD4 levels... plus I've taken E a few times, and that hasn't seem to done anything at all either.

Granted, recreational drugs are not going to help you... in fact they almost definitely will hurt you in some way... but not as drastically as they say. 
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline dtwpuck

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  • дано мне тело, что мне делать с ним?
Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 07:30:22 PM »
I smell a big bunch of anti-drug propaganda BS with this one.

I had a nice coke addiction for months that didn't effect my viral load or CD4 levels... plus I've taken E a few times, and that hasn't seem to done anything at all either.

Granted, recreational drugs are not going to help you... in fact they almost definitely will hurt you in some way... but not as drastically as they say. 
I don't think there's any serious study of the effect of Ecstasy on CD4 levels.  The general consensus among the docs and researchers I know about that particular drug is that it is one of the more innocuous ones out there.  There certainly are bigger battles to fight and more potential harm to be had from other drugs out there (i.e. meth and heroin).
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 07:33:08 PM »
I don't think there's any serious study of the effect of Ecstasy on CD4 levels.  The general consensus among the docs and researchers I know about that particular drug is that it is one of the more innocuous ones out there.  There certainly are bigger battles to fight and more potential harm to be had from other drugs out there (i.e. meth and heroin).


Meth and heroin are so dangerous to the immune system mostly through their secondary effects, I think. 

Mainly, you're not sleeping (either as well in the case of heroin, or at all in the case of meth), not eating (and definitely not eating correctly), and generally not taking care of yourself.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline dtwpuck

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  • дано мне тело, что мне делать с ним?
Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2007, 08:09:23 PM »
I would have to agree that most drugs are dangerous to the immune system mostly from secondary effects... whether it's lack of sleep or appetite, or the impairment of judgment.    But, I guess that this is a topic for another thread.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline koi1

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2007, 11:10:48 PM »
Geeze Louise,

Limited Point,

"I smell a big bunch of anti-drug propaganda BS with this one." (Benji's Pearl necklaces of wisdom)

Then you went on to  state the following:

"I had a nice coke addiction for months that didn't effect my viral load or CD4 levels... plus I've taken E a few times, and that hasn't seem to done anything at all either."

Leave me the fuck alone, I simply stating what the obvious.

All I can say is knock yourself out. Whoever agrees with you that recreational drugs are not harming your immune system, also needs a reality check. I know you are the authority on being a coke whore, but albeit a "classy" coke whore. Your posts smell to me as pro-drug caca-ganda. Shame on you! There are so many people who come to this website for guidance.

I hope they are smart enough to not listen to a faux intellectual, who went to oh my God William and Mary (no one on the west coast has ever heard of) college.

Once again who starts with the personal attacks? "You never stop do you?" LOL

And by the way a lot of us are sick of your tweeked out nonesensical rambling. Post when you're sober!!!

Knock it off biotch!



« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 11:20:26 PM by koi1 »
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2007, 11:31:42 PM »
Buzz.  Buzz.  Buzz.

I hear bees in someone's bonnet.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2007, 11:46:21 PM »
LOL!  Good one Rob!!!!

No, Aupoint, the buzzing is probably coming from your well used vibrator stuck where the sun don't shine.  I am sure the reason you are hearing it is because your head is lodged up there as well!!!

You are no Oscar Wilde, so quit with the less than witty witticisms.  They are growing as tired as you look in your avatar pic. 

Yawn, and have another drink and if you aren't up to anything interesting this evening, take a look at what I wrote to you in the "Off-Topic" Anna Nicole post.
 


Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2007, 11:56:13 PM »
Geeze Louise,

Limited Point,

"I smell a big bunch of anti-drug propaganda BS with this one." (Benji's Pearl necklaces of wisdom)

Then you went on to  state the following:

"I had a nice coke addiction for months that didn't effect my viral load or CD4 levels... plus I've taken E a few times, and that hasn't seem to done anything at all either."

Leave me the fuck alone, I simply stating what the obvious.

All I can say is knock yourself out. Whoever agrees with you that recreational drugs are not harming your immune system, also needs a reality check. I know you are the authority on being a coke whore, but albeit a "classy" coke whore. Your posts smell to me as pro-drug caca-ganda. Shame on you! There are so many people who come to this website for guidance.

I hope they are smart enough to not listen to a faux intellectual, who went to oh my God William and Mary (no one on the west coast has ever heard of) college.

Once again who starts with the personal attacks? "You never stop do you?" LOL

And by the way a lot of us are sick of your tweeked out nonesensical rambling. Post when you're sober!!!

Knock it off biotch!

Hmm.  As much as I would love to be mature and ignore this completely.  I can't.

Let's see here... where do we begin?

Oh yes... let's start where I was responding to an statement that was made about the alleged immune-compromising effects of E.  I called the statement BS... nothing about you.  But apparently... strongly disagreeing with an assertion is an attack on you.  Good to know... duly noted. 

No one on the West Coast has heard of William and Mary?  Interesting.  Those rubes at the US News and World report consistently rank it as the best small public university in the United States and in the top 25 of all colleges in the United States. 

And if someone comes to this website for "guidance" and reads what I post about cocaine and then says, "Huzzah!  Now I can be just like Kate Moss!" then they're idiots and would probably die of drinking the pretty green antifreeze in the garage.  So no small loss there.

Furthermore... let's look a word about my statements regarding the classiness of coke addiction. 

Irony.

And here's a definition of irony.

i∑ro∑ny1      /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
Ėnoun, plural -nies.
1.   the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning

There are also many other forms of irony.  Like the irony of someone using the word "nonesensical" to mean what I can only assume is "nonsensical."  That's ironic.

And you have shamed me.  As much as one who can take such umbrage to every comment everyone makes that disagrees with him can.

Which is not at all.

"Biotch?"  What the cock is that shit?
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2007, 12:03:26 AM »
LOL!  Good one Rob!!!!

No, Aupoint, the buzzing is probably coming from your well used vibrator stuck where the sun don't shine.  I am sure the reason you are hearing it is because your head is lodged up there as well!!!

You are no Oscar Wilde, so quit with the less than witty witticisms.  They are growing as tired as you look in your avatar pic. 

Yawn, and have another drink and if you aren't up to anything interesting this evening, take a look at what I wrote to you in the "Off-Topic" Anna Nicole post.

Everyone is such a critic these days.  Le sigh.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline sdcabincrew74

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2007, 12:11:29 AM »
Ok, here is my take, once stable on meds, there is no documented case of being infected with a super bug.  In my years, I have also found that to be true, since I have more than my share of unprotected bareback and usually as the bottom and I always expect them to finish inside so to speak. 
The difference between an overnight and a layover is luck!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2007, 12:12:07 AM »
It is said that one hit ecstasy can lower your cd4 count by the hundreds.

No.  But drug binges CAN make you skip doses.  I went though a farily hardcore second wind parting phase from '99 - 2001 and my cd4' continued to rise.  I'd say ecstasy is the safest of the recreational drugs.  Amphetamines like coke and meth are the bad ones.

Oh... and ketamine is even better in terms of not effecting you labs, as long as you still maintain your HIV medication schedule.  Of course, it depend somewhat on what HIv medications you are taking.  Ecastasy can raise blood pressure so if you're having issue without that already you may want to be moderate in your intake... and as always NEVER allow yourself to become dehydrated.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2007, 12:14:15 AM »
Geeze Louise,

Limited Point,

"I smell a big bunch of anti-drug propaganda BS with this one." (Benji's Pearl necklaces of wisdom)

Then you went on to  state the following:

"I had a nice coke addiction for months that didn't effect my viral load or CD4 levels... plus I've taken E a few times, and that hasn't seem to done anything at all either."

Leave me the fuck alone, I simply stating what the obvious.

All I can say is knock yourself out. Whoever agrees with you that recreational drugs are not harming your immune system, also needs a reality check. I know you are the authority on being a coke whore, but albeit a "classy" coke whore. Your posts smell to me as pro-drug caca-ganda. Shame on you! There are so many people who come to this website for guidance.

I hope they are smart enough to not listen to a faux intellectual, who went to oh my God William and Mary (no one on the west coast has ever heard of) college.

Once again who starts with the personal attacks? "You never stop do you?" LOL

And by the way a lot of us are sick of your tweeked out nonesensical rambling. Post when you're sober!!!

Knock it off biotch!


This commentary and it's tone was simply  not civil nor necessary, and it's not that first time from the particular poster.  You know, there ARE some of us who have been dealing with this longer than 3 months.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2007, 12:15:52 AM »
You know, there ARE some of us who have been dealing with this longer than 3 months.

But what do we know?

We are the lowest form of life.  Like amoebas.   Only high.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2007, 12:17:09 AM »
Maybe Keisha will reappear... she's been surprisingly absent.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2007, 12:22:29 AM »
Maybe Keisha will reappear... she's been surprisingly absent.

I miss her.

A lot.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2007, 12:29:57 AM »
Forget Keisha, where is SD Girl, Aidsmeds own reigning queen of mean.  I suspect she might be flying on her broom somewhere over San Diego as we speak, or should I say, type.

She is always good at chewing someone a new one whenever that person stands up against the group think so prevalent on this website. 

Some of you sound like a bunch of trash talking seventh grade girls, trying to sound so hard core, when in fact you are merely insecure children hiding from your own boogeymen.

I love when the crew of Aupoint and Silly Philly strap on board.  You girls don't have a lot going on in your personal life do you, that is, to have so much time to troll this website.  Many of us are growing bored with your rantings.



Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2007, 12:39:33 AM »
Rrrriiiiigggghht.



You're getting bored?

It's nice to know we're here to amuse you.

All of us here at Druggy Sluts Entertainment Group will be sure to do better next time.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2007, 12:51:22 AM »
"All of us here at Druggy Sluts Entertainment Group will be sure to do better next time."

LOL,

I actually would be more entertained by actuaql "druggie sluts" however your ramblings seem more to me like "Teenage Reform School Girl Wannabes" than bonafide "druggie sluts". BTW, you coined yourselves that, I didn't, but if the cheap "fuck me pumps" fit,.............



« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:53:04 AM by scotttt »

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2007, 12:56:08 AM »
"Teenage Reform School Girl Wannabes"

You have, contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, managed to come up with what is quite possibly one the most awesome band names ever.

Hats off.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2007, 02:01:28 AM »
"All of us here at Druggy Sluts Entertainment Group will be sure to do better next time."

LOL,

I actually would be more entertained by actuaql "druggie sluts" however your ramblings seem more to me like "Teenage Reform School Girl Wannabes" than bonafide "druggie sluts". BTW, you coined yourselves that, I didn't, but if the cheap "fuck me pumps" fit,.............


fascinating analysis... but hey ecstasy in moderation SURELY will kills us... I await your scientific statistical analysis on the edge of my seat.

From what I can tell it's the hardcore post-meth addicts, of which I *never* was one that get thrown into conniptions. 

And someone with 17 posts offers so much insight on things.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:05:22 AM by philly267 »
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2007, 02:05:01 AM »
fascinating analysis

Indeed it was. 

I expected nothing less... something so brilliant it required words like "actuaql."
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2007, 02:21:39 AM »
And someone with 17 posts offers so much insight on things.

And you're forgetting the fact that this is also someone who has posted 17 times here and is, as far as I can tell from reading those 17 posts, HIV negative.

So many insights into who I am and what my life is like as someone who is actually HIV positive... it must be like omniscience or something.

I'm jealous.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:25:40 AM by aupointillimite »
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Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2007, 03:00:16 AM »
I don't think Austin started this thread for it to turn into a bitch fight over a person's drug of preference or a person's opinion of how drugs are bad. I see enough of that on drug commercials and it's always weed. Can we get back to the topic at hand....Super Infection. I don't know about you guys but I would like to know more about this and it's a pain in the ass to have wade through the insults and snipes. I would suggest starting a thread about pet peeves or something. Starting one to further insult someone or to give them the glamorous title of "Queen Of Mean". I'm wondering who would want such a title? I mean really, it doesn't take much effort to throw insults or be an asshole. Can we be adults here...*sheesh* :-\
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
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5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
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Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2007, 07:26:09 AM »
Cases for super infection:

 a strain that is resistant to one or more classes of drugs. I think it is possible for a virus that is resistant to all classes of drugs, with the right conditions, to develop.

Cases of an aggressive strain that kills you in a fraction of the time if left untreated or even treated
I prefer the term reinfection. Super infection is great for Fox News: News Flash, but I can't imagine it means much medically.  I think this definition is too narrow.  You can be reinfected with another strain, without that strain being resistant to meds (any meds).

It's clear this can happen.  What people don't know is how often it happens (which is important).  And what's the impact to disease progression (in the case where you are reinfected with a normal, garden-type variety of HIV, as I would assume is more likely to happen than being reinfected with a multi-drug resistant strain).

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2007, 08:03:09 AM »
Folks, the subject of this thread is superinfection.

The subject is not about an opportunity to snap and slash at someone whom you don't like or who irritates you or who has attacked you. If you can't speak civilly to each other then just keep your "witticisms" to yourself.

KO, Scott and Aupoint, consider yourselves warned.
Andy Velez

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2007, 08:35:59 AM »
As far as 2 hiv positives people having sex on a ha art therapy, ( I know I'm gonna get lynched for this but here it goes) as long as both viral loads are undetectable and both parties are on a ha art therapy I see little danger of a double infection or a supervirus evolving as the chances of infection with no or little viral load is nearly impossible.

No lynching from me, Ryeguy. ;)

Interesting hypothesis, but I for one wouldn't be willing to gamble to find out. To me it wouldn't be worth the risk.

I was advised early after diagnosis to take precautions against getting doubly- or re-infected, and that still makes the most sense to me.

Daniel
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Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2007, 08:48:36 AM »
Ah... since conversation may be returning to a civil tone, I'll jump in here and attempt to not piss anyone off.

Is super-infection real?  Umm.... yeah!  What causes it?  A combination of natural selection (survival of the fittest) among constantly mutating virus and persons not protecting themselves from infection.  HIV is notoritously sloppy when it reproduces, making copies with random mutations at a unusually high rate for any organism.  Eventually, some of those copies have the right mutation for not succumbing to a particular drug, and drug-resistant virus arises.  If the drug-resistant bugs make copies of themselves with additional mutations, those new bugs may have a shot at surviving in the face of additional drugs.  Now, take any of those bugs and inject them--in the arm, up the ass--into a person not taking meds to which the heavily-mutated bugs are not resistant, and you'll get super-infection on top of whatever low levels of "wild type" or otherwise resistant virus the infectee may have.

BTW... a mathematical model of the super-infection scenario is very compelling for the probability and statistics geeks among us.  Sadly, the last time I saw one was about 15 years ago related to resistance to monotherapies.

Cheers,
David
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2007, 09:08:46 AM »
And by the way a lot of us are sick of your tweeked out nonesensical rambling. Post when you're sober!!!

Speak for yourself.

Whether he's sober or drunk aupoint's posts are intelligent, coherent, grammatically correct, and not riddled with typos and misspellings.   

And he has a sense of humor.

Boo

P.S.  In defending himself aupoint has done nothing to deserve a warning from the mods, unlike the two who have insulted him repeatedly. 
String up every aristocrat!
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Offline carousel

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2007, 09:20:34 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 09:09:02 AM by carousel »

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2007, 09:23:53 AM »
I've heard a lot about super infection, not many people who actually have been through it. 

I'm more worried about issues of co-infection.

You're right... they talk about it a lot... but there don't seem to be too many numbers or studies on the issue.  At least none that I'm aware of.

It seems to be that it can happen... but not nearly as often as we're being told... but if it does happen, you can be royally screwed.

I think that co-infection with something else is much more likely to happen as well.  I don't even want to imagine the fun that is a herpes infection with a compromised immune system.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline carousel

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2007, 09:37:18 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 09:07:52 AM by carousel »

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2007, 09:44:17 AM »
Boo,

Alas, you use the "spelling and typo" card, often the last ditch effort of a person who cannot make a clear and well reasoned point.  Rob makes excellent points, I guess he hasn't refined his secretarial skills as much as Aupoint has.

Aupoint,

I have to correct one factual error in your previous posts.  The reason no one on the west coast has heard of "William and Mary" is simply because it is not ranked among the top NATIONAL universities by US NEWS.  It is nowhere to be found in the list of top NATIONAL universities.  Even though Rob and I both went to top Nationally ranked universities (UCLA and Berkeley) I am not one to be a snob about where a person did or did not attend college.  However, before one brags about where one went to college, one should make sure he or she has something concrete to brag about.

BTW, I was taught in law school that using Latin to drive home a point is passe and often used by attorneys with less than impressive educational pedigrees.  Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 09:51:42 AM by scotttt »

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2007, 10:04:30 AM »
Boo,

Alas, you use the "spelling and typo" card, often the last ditch effort of a person who cannot make a clear and well reasoned point.  Rob makes excellent points, I guess he hasn't refined his secretarial skills as much as Aupoint has.

It's odd that you don't contradict my comments about the lack of intelligent, coherent, grammatically correct posts but select misspelling.

By the way, if you check out the list on the US News and World Report site you'll find William and Mary at #31:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Maybe the west coast edition doesn't include east coast instiitutions....

Boo
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline Grinch

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2007, 10:10:33 AM »
Super-Infection is a bad term.
Think about this:
  The HIV virus is so deadly because it mutates.
   Introducing a virus that is different than the one you currently have can lead to a new mutation that your body and meds may not be able to fight.
  It would be fairly difficult to then say "This is a super-infection!"  Instead the diagnosis would be: "Your virus has become resistant to your current meds."

Super-infection implies some ultra resistant virus. Of more concern would be any mutation that effects your body and meds ability to fight it.

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2007, 10:19:35 AM »
You're right... they talk about it a lot... but there don't seem to be too many numbers or studies on the issue.  At least none that I'm aware of.  It seems to be that it can happen... but not nearly as often as we're being told... but if it does happen, you can be royally screwed.

I think that co-infection with something else is much more likely to happen as well.  I don't even want to imagine the fun that is a herpes infection with a compromised immune system.

Aren't the numbers on new infections that present with drug resistance enough?  Apply those across HIVers on HAART having unprotected sex, and there would be some numbers to consider as a base.  The ethical considerations of a "study" for super-inection would seem to be non-starters, though.  As for super-infection being a "bad term," it's the appropriate medical term and simply means picking up a bug that you already have, except the new one is resistant to a drug.

As for co-infection, acquiring other STIs should be a consideration fpr HIVers having unprotected sex.  Chlamyidia, gonorrhea, syphilis and herpes may be present and transmissible without observable symptoms, as are the hepatitis viruses.  I stopped fucking raw two years ago after getting a nasty "garden-variety" urinary tract infection from a hottie's ass in Houston--I would have almost rather had a blister on my cock head or have it oozing puss than feeling like my urethra was on fire for several days!

-D
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2007, 10:24:41 AM »
"super-infection" means infection over the top of the original one(s), not resistant or stronger, like super-structure (not super-size...).
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2007, 11:04:11 AM »
"super-infection" means infection over the top of the original one(s), not resistant or stronger, like super-structure (not super-size...).

This is what I thought and this thread was confusing me because everyone seems to mean different things in their posts.

Anyway from what I have read and heard from my doctors, it's something which is very rare and to be honest it isn'tsomething I worry about.  There appears to be hardly any documentated reports of it.  I think I read one a while ago,but the fact that such a big deal was made over it does seem to show that it doesn't happen very often.

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2007, 11:50:46 AM »
This is what I thought and this thread was confusing me because everyone seems to mean different things in their posts.Anyway from what I have read and heard from my doctors, it's something which is very rare and to be honest it isn'tsomething I worry about.  There appears to be hardly any documentated reports of it.  I think I read one a while ago,but the fact that such a big deal was made over it does seem to show that it doesn't happen very often.

Again, it's a question of statistics and probabilities, but the result of "super-infection" would be the same:  you acquire and persist virus with a genetic profile different from the bugs you have.  The only way that happens is if the new bugs are resistant to meds you are taking.

While sensational alarms over "super-virus" have caused many to be suspicious of super-infection claims, I would venture that treatment failures over the last ten years have been more due to super-infection, rather than the course of a subject's own bugs.  That a clinician would not not think this to be the case suggests that s/he has either not seen treatment failures or thought much about the sex lives of the people s/he treats.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2007, 12:09:10 PM »
Correction,

William and Mary is ranked among regional schools not national schools.  Regional schools represent the educational minor league, whereas nationally ranked schools represent the educational major league.  Nuance, my friend, nuance.


Offline Grinch

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2007, 12:12:45 PM »
I'm of the opinion the whole argument stems from the question: What is a super-infection?
I understand that people want to hear: "It's ok to bareback someone thats HIV+"
The argument is always "There are no real documented cases of Super-infection"

Newt I kinda like your definition. 
People will always hear what they want to hear, and refuse to hear what they don't want to hear.
Bottom line is no one wants to hear adding a different mutation into the mix can be bad.

Maybe someone should coin the phrase "Mutated-Infection" or even, Additional - infection.
I personally don't believe a super-infection is some ultra resistant mutation.

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2007, 12:26:54 PM »
Forget Keisha, where is SD Girl, Aidsmeds own reigning queen of mean.  I suspect she might be flying on her broom somewhere over San Diego as we speak, or should I say, type.

She is always good at chewing someone a new one whenever that person stands up against the group think so prevalent on this website. 

Some of you sound like a bunch of trash talking seventh grade girls, trying to sound so hard core, when in fact you are merely insecure children hiding from your own boogeymen.

I love when the crew of Aupoint and Silly Philly strap on board.  You girls don't have a lot going on in your personal life do you, that is, to have so much time to troll this website.  Many of us are growing bored with your rantings.

SDGirl is NOT the queen of mean and please take care not to attack her or anyone on this site.  I admittedly have no powers to do anything about it but I do know SD girl and she is an extremely beautiful person inside and out.  She stands up for what she believes in as do others.  I for one would LOVE to have her back and she is slowly getting there, for those of you in the know, she has a new blog up.  I got your back SD, get your ass back here!  Also Koi and Scott, please remember....

« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:47:42 PM by ACinKC »
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thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2007, 12:33:30 PM »
Again, it's a question of statistics and probabilities, but the result of "super-infection" would be the same:  you acquire and persist virus with a genetic profile different from the bugs you have.  The only way that happens is if the new bugs are resistant to meds you are taking.

While sensational alarms over "super-virus" have caused many to be suspicious of super-infection claims, I would venture that treatment failures over the last ten years have been more due to super-infection, rather than the course of a subject's own bugs.  That a clinician would not not think this to be the case suggests that s/he has either not seen treatment failures or thought much about the sex lives of the people s/he treats.


So, my questions are as follows.

If one has contracted two strains of HIV that are both not resistant to any meds, is that still super-infection?

And is contracting just one strain of resistant HIV as bad or worse as contracting two that aren't resistant?
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2007, 12:44:07 PM »
So, my questions are as follows.

If one has contracted two strains of HIV that are both not resistant to any meds, is that still super-infection?

And is contracting just one strain of resistant HIV as bad or worse as contracting two that aren't resistant?

1.  Yes. though the concern from a treatment perspective for any disease is drug resistance.

2.  Yes, because you have lost at least one class of weapons agains the virus...assuming the non-resiistant strains are not endowed with super powers that let them avoid any attempts at extermination with or without drugs.  Virus that can bend time and space is a real bitch to deal with, and so is the stuff spliced with Dalek DNA!
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2007, 12:52:18 PM »
1.  Yes. though the concern from a treatment perspective for any disease is drug resistance.

2.  Yes, because you have lost at least one class of weapons agains the virus...assuming the non-resiistant strains are not endowed with super powers that let them avoid any attempts at extermination with or without drugs.  Virus that can bend time and space is a real bitch to deal with, and so is the stuff spliced with Dalek DNA!

Stupid flux-capacitor equipped virus!

OK... so if someone is hypothetically infected with two non-resistant strains of HIV... what's so bad about that?
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Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2007, 12:53:31 PM »
I have been thinking...if you have unprotected sex with an HIV partner and you are both undetectable and on the same meds...and still get reinfected....That means that the virus you have passed to or received from your partner is resistant to those meds you are both taking. If not, it would have been totally suppressed or weakended and unable to cause reinfection. In that case you would have a new strain resistant to the meds you are taking and therefore less treatment options. Isnīt it?
My Dr. warned me about reinfection.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2007, 12:56:11 PM »
I would think that if one were to have 2 non resistent viruses that they could mutate differently at diff times.  I would think that would be a BITCH to control.

Imagine having one red headed step child.....now add a second.  Body surely would lose (notice the spelling of lose not LOOSE, sorry just a pet peeve) this battle quicker than if it was just taking on one at a time.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2007, 12:57:29 PM »
Again, it's a question of statistics and probabilities, but the result of "super-infection" would be the same:  you acquire and persist virus with a genetic profile different from the bugs you have.  The only way that happens is if the new bugs are resistant to meds you are taking.

Well not quite I think.

For one, possibly, most of the treatment failures over the last 10 years have been because the understanding of the importance of resistance and adherence was poor back in the 1990s, or monotherapy, sub-triple therapy etc led to resistance that compromised treatment, rather than acquired secondary infection. Yes? No? Possible? possible...

For two, everyone's HIV is a mix to start and the balance, well it can change, does change, and careful analysis shows this is at least as likely if not more likely, or indeed the provable, actual cause of sudden viraemia and immune decline rather than bonus bugs from barebacking.

I  do not say reinfection can't happen, or more importantly, reinfection with a new type of HIV that affects your treatment/health can't happen, but people who present it as a real and present danger without qualifying this in terms of viral load, regular v irregular partner, anal v vaginal sex, treatment v no treatment,  age of HIV infection etc, are basically fudging a real explanation (by lying to their patients usually) of the risk. Or lack of it.

Same HIV subtype, same resistance profile, same treatment history = zero risk. It seems possible you can find this out about your number 1 man/woman but perhaps not in a steam room.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2007, 01:00:40 PM »
I have been thinking...if you have unprotected sex with an HIV partner and you are both undetectable and on the same meds...and still get reinfected....That means that the virus you have passed to or received from your partner is resistant to those meds you are both taking. If not, it would have been totally suppressed or weakended and unable to cause reinfection. In that case you would have a new strain resistant to the meds you are taking and therefore less treatment options. Isnīt it?
My Dr. warned me about reinfection.

That's just dumb! If you're both on the same meds and undetectable you can't create a resistant strain to pass on out of thin air......   
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2007, 01:02:19 PM »
"super-infection" means infection over the top of the original one(s), not resistant or stronger, like super-structure (not super-size...).

I just got a really funny mental image... of a fast food McAIDS restaurant....

"I'll have the HIV... and I'd like to super-size it."

"Super-infection" is a bit misleading... it's like an infection... only super?  Is there "Super-Duper Infection?"

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Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2007, 01:04:44 PM »
Well, clearly this topic is controversial.   I've learned a lot already and I see all the usual drama queens and attention whores couldn't even derail the discussion.

I think the fact that all of us have different views on this is interesting.   Even down to different definitions.   Perhaps I should have titled the thread differently, but I know we've all heard this term tossed around a lot.

With all of the information I've read so far I think it would be interesting if we could have some couples weigh in on the situation?

Seems to me that this whole superinfection topic covers a broad range of issues and concerns.  

Minus the bitchfest, I've learned a lot.  
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2007, 01:05:48 PM »

Please excuse this off-topic post...

Correction,

William and Mary is ranked among regional schools not national schools.  Regional schools represent the educational minor league, whereas nationally ranked schools represent the educational major league.  Nuance, my friend, nuance.

Literacy, my friend, literacy.  The link provided http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php) is to U.S. News TOP NATIONAL UNIVERSITIES, not regional:

"National Universities: Top Schools

1.    Princeton University(NJ)
...
 
31.    College of William and Mary(VA) *"

If you're going to correct someone you should at least check his source before you make another factual error.

Boo 
 

String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2007, 01:06:11 PM »
Why not? I think it is unlikely to pass a strain to another person if you are undetectable, but if you do pass it it might be because those few virons have mutated and are the adan and eve of a new strain that is developing in the host before the host is showing evident signs of resistance by an increased viral load. Maybe I am developing today a resistant starin and I am still undetectable but can pass it to my partner...before knowing I have it.
I think the onnly concer about reinfection is acquiring a resistant strain. I you have 200 different strains abut all of them have no resistance to meds, there is nothing to worry about.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 01:09:27 PM by blondbeauty »
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2007, 01:10:33 PM »
Why not? I think it is unlikely to pass a strain to another person if you are undetectable, but if you do pass it it might be because those few virons have mutated and are the adan and eve of a new strain that is developing in the host before the host is showing evident signs of resistance by an increased viral load. Maybe I am developing today a resistant starin and I am still undetectable but can pass it to my partner...before knowing I have it.

But wouldn't that strain have to be present enough in your body for you to be infectious?  And furthermore... having HIV antibodies already provides HIV+ people with a certain level of protection from new infections.

I'm getting the feeling that this is a really theoretical discussion... super-infection has happened... but shouldn't it be happening more if it's so easy to get? 
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Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2007, 01:13:52 PM »
Maybe...but HIv is not so easy to pass and look were we are today. We have got it and most of the people donīt. maybe if we made a study of how many people have unpriotected sex and how many get HIV we would also say it is an infection unlikely to happen.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2007, 01:16:05 PM »

Same HIV subtype, same resistance profile, same treatment history = zero risk.

Only if both treatments are working and containing the virus such that no further mutations are lurking in the shared body fluid, not the blood.  Personally, I find negotiating a condom based on other STIs much easier than sequencing virus genes when I hook up with anyone.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2007, 01:16:29 PM »
I would have unprotected sex with my partner if we are both HIV+, undetectable and in a monogamous relationship. But I would not recommend it
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2007, 01:18:12 PM »
Maybe...but HIv is not so easy to pass and look were we are today. We have got it and most of the people donīt. maybe if we made a study of how many people have unpriotected sex and how many get HIV we would also say it is an infection unlikely to happen.

Right... I mean... exposure doesn't equal infection necessarily. 

I'm wondering if there are too many variables in this for anyone to speak authoritatively on it.  I mean, two people.  Are the poz?  Are they on meds?  Is anyone's virus resistant?  How contagious are each of them?  How susceptible are they to picking up another strain?  How well are their immune systems functioning?

A lot of these things can change from day to day or hour to hour...
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Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2007, 01:20:47 PM »
Only if both treatments are working and containing the virus such that no further mutations are lurking in the shared body fluid, not the blood.  Personally, I find negotiating a condom based on other STIs much easier than sequencing virus genes when I hook up with anyone.

I brought a picture of MY HIV to see if it matches YOUR HIV!  Does yours look like THIS?

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2007, 01:21:14 PM »
Only if both treatments are working and containing the virus such that no further mutations are lurking in the shared body fluid, not the blood.  Personally, I find negotiating a condom based on other STIs much easier than sequencing virus genes when I hook up with anyone.

Ultimately, I think you're right.

What's easier?  Putting on a condom or pulling out a DNA sequencer?

"OK... you've got a mutation at K103N... so..."

By that point, the guy you took home the night before is cooking you lunch.

However, if in a monogamous relationship with another poz guy... I wouldn't use protection.  But I wouldn't say to other people "you'll be fine" either.
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Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2007, 01:28:19 PM »
I brought a picture of MY HIV to see if it matches YOUR HIV!  Does yours look like THIS?

No.  Mine is longer, thicker and uncut!   :P
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline blondbeauty

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2007, 01:31:50 PM »
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2007, 01:32:06 PM »
I would have unprotected sex with my partner if we are both HIV+, undetectable and in a monogamous relationship. But I would not recommend it

I think this is one of the most honest statements I've read throughout this thread.

Who knows about that HIV prevention pill hyped up by the media last year?????   I found one link to a similar case study:

http://www.thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/2006/may5_06/prep.html

If I recall correctly they were pushing some existing HIV med that was supposed to prevent a partner from getting HIV.  The reason I remember it is because at the time I was involved with my negative partner and we'd discussed it if it became an option.  Anyways, this pill was like 600/month and I'm not certain, but I thought it was on the market now???

It would seem to me that if they are using some HIV med as a prevention pill then most HIV meds must be acting as a sort of blocker?

Clearly, I see a bigger risk for me (not on meds) with a partner (on meds).  

Anyways, I'd be curious to hear more on this aspect.  
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2007, 01:32:45 PM »
if someone picked up a second strain, would it show up in the resistance tests or is there a specific test you need to do for it?

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2007, 01:34:41 PM »
Boo,

U.S. News has different categories for ranking schools.  The ranking among Nationally ranked schools represents the "big leage" of higher education.  Local and regional schools are the "lminor leagues" of education.  If you look up the 2007 U.S. News ranking of nationally ranked schools you will see that WIlliam and Mary is not present among the top nationally ranked schools.  That is the only ranking that really matters, just as the major league in baseball is the only league that really matters.  Sure U.S. News throws a bone to smaller less significant schools, but schools such as Harvard, Yale, Stanford and all of the U.C. schools are listed among the major league or nationally ranked schools.  Some people in your local region might be impressed by a local school, but in the big city blue states such as California and New York, only nationally ranked schools has the chachet needed to truly impress people.  Sorry , that is just how it is.

It demonstrates what a small town girl Aupoint is by being impressed with such unimpressive credentials.  It shows your inabiility to distinguish between minor educational institutional rankings and nationally ranked educational institutions.  Your inability to comprehend this is funny, I thiink.  Go back and look at the list of U.S. News Nationally ranks schools, not the local or regionally ranked schools.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 01:37:00 PM by scotttt »

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2007, 01:38:56 PM »
What's easier?  Putting on a condom or pulling out a DNA sequencer?

"OK... you've got a mutation at K103N... so..."

By that point, the guy you took home the night before is cooking you lunch.

However, if in a monogamous relationship with another poz guy... I wouldn't use protection.  But I wouldn't say to other people "you'll be fine" either.

1.  I am an alumnus of Rice, so the DNA sequencing is only a smidge more taxing. .....damn, what the joke about an Aggie putting on a condom?

2a.  Lunch???!!  Brunch!  And I'd be the one cooking while he's scheming ways to knock off my partner.

3.  How do we expect to be credible if we don't walk our talk?  Actions speak louder than words.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2007, 01:40:42 PM »
if someone picked up a second strain, would it show up in the resistance tests or is there a specific test you need to do for it?

I think it would show up on the resistance tests.

From what I understand, each strain has a fairly unique genetic profile... but I don't know if, let's say you did pick up a second strain, both profiles (hidden mutations and resistance mutations) would show up as one single profile or as two separate ones. 
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2007, 01:44:19 PM »
Once again who starts with the personal attacks? "You never stop do you?" LOL

And by the way a lot of us are sick of your tweeked out nonesensical rambling. Post when you're sober!!!

Knock it off biotch!

If that wasn't the most cognitive dissonant hypocritical self-admitted Sustiva demented posting I've seen from you then I don't know how worse it can get. 

Perhaps you should consider a break from the internet if you can't behave in a civil manner... or better yet go and invent another "Keisha" persona.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2007, 01:44:41 PM »
How do we expect to be credible if we don't walk our talk?  Actions speak louder than words.

I'm not sure as to what level of credibility I'd be attempting to prove.  I would still acknowledge that I very well might be playing with fire.

I would know it's risky... but it would still be my choice... I wouldn't try to convert other poz people in seroconcordant relationships to do the same. 
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2007, 01:46:43 PM »
There is a good summary of the science on Medscape: HIV Superinfection: What Clinicians and Patients Should Know.

The British HIV Association has new guidelines on sexual health for HIV+ people, also have a long section on it (with references), alas a PDF.

Resistance tests look for mutations in a general mixed up viral population.  They can't tell if it's an acquired mutuation or one that's come from drug pressure etc, change in viral mix etc.  There are tests to do this but they are very complex, lab stuff, not really clinic tests.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 06:31:43 AM by newt »
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2007, 01:47:11 PM »
Oh my..

Now girls, please behave. Especially you Aupo.

Al
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2007, 01:49:12 PM »
On a more human level note, no-one I know in a positive-positive relationship uses condoms (except to prevent babies), and neither do I, regardless of treatment/no treamtment.  Quite a few are on the same treatment by design.  NB: relationship, not steam room.

-matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2007, 01:52:19 PM »
There is a good summary of the science on Medscape: HIV Superinfection: What Clinicians and Patients Should Know - you have to register to read it (but it's secretly reprinted here).

The British HIV Association has new guidelines on sexual health for HIV+ people, also have a long section on it (with references), alas a PDF.

Resistance tests look for mutations in a general mixed up viral population.  They can't tell if it's an acquired mutuation or one that's come from drug pressure etc, change in viral mix etc.  There are tests to do this but they are very complex, lab stuff, not really clinic tests.



So, theoretically, one could be infected with eighteen or so strains, and if none of them are resistant to any medications... no one would really be able to tell if you're infected with however many strains you have?
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2007, 01:55:27 PM »
(Benji's Pearl necklaces of wisdom)Once again who starts with the personal attacks? "You never stop do you?" LOL

You *DO* basically realize that you are a liar, don't you?  And you don't even hide it well in separate postings, so therefore I must conclude that other than a liar you're also a moron.

Why request a civil tone and then insult someone in the same post?  Boggles the mind.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:04:04 PM by philly267 »
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Offline dixieman

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2007, 01:56:07 PM »
Everyone makes a good point but, unfortunately is it worth the risK? A friend of mine who lived in NYC recently passed away from some horrible complications... he had contracted I think numerous diseases... KS... which disfigured his face, body etc... he contracted herpes... hpv... and had gonorrhea on more than one occassion... Note... herpes once contracted is with you for life... same as hpv... although treatable ...their not curable...so screw the Bare backing... also he contracted hep A-B... so I think the best scenerio is to practice safe as possible... Everyone on this forum did not practice safe sex at one time or another to contract hiv so why would anyone risk more exposure... even if its a small possibility?

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2007, 01:58:02 PM »
Oh my..

Now girls, please behave. Especially you Aupo.

Al

Aupo, (which sounds alot like Alpo so maybe he is kibble and bits for the gay men!) has been EXTREMELY restrained in this thread and I for one am proud of him for it.  It has been Koi and his partner Scott instigating at every turn.  (Boo has kept the embers burning occaisonally as well!)  These two have added NOTHING to this thread and offer little much to the forum as a whole.  I am sorry to veer off topic but Scott just did it again and man its got my panties in a bunch.  I hope the mods take note to scott and koi (although he has stopped for a bit) and have a little chat with them.  I am not for giving time outs as I genereally like everyones opinion on things, but they do need to be addressed.  

Off the soap box and with apologies to all others posting on the real discussion.  I'd LOVE to experience unprotected sex again!  One of you hotties call my wife and set it up will ya!?!?!?!?!  (edited to also say after reading Dixieman's post you fuckers better bring your STD panel ALL CLEAR with you as well!!!)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 01:59:37 PM by ACinKC »
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2007, 01:59:59 PM »
Aupo, (which sounds alot like Alpo so maybe he is kibble and bits for the gay men!) has been EXTREMELY restrained in this thread and I for one am proud of him for it.  It has been Koi and his partner Scott instigating at every turn.  (Boo has kept the embers burning occaisonally as well!)  These two have added NOTHING to this thread and offer little much to the forum as a whole.  I am sorry to veer off topic but Scott just did it again and man its got my panties in a bunch.  I hope the mods take note to scott and koi (although he has stopped for a bit) and have a little chat with them.  I am not for giving time outs as I genereally like everyones opinion on things, but they do need to be addressed.  

Off the soap box and with apologies to all others posting on the real discussion.  I'd LOVE to experience unprotected sex again!  One of you hotties call my wife and set it up will ya!?!?!?!?!

ACinKC, I was kididng about especially Aupo. Aupo has a sense of humor, just read all the replies and threads he has posted.
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2007, 02:00:39 PM »
Everyone makes a good point but, unfortunately is it worth the risK? A friend of mine who lived in NYC recently passed away from some horrible complications... he had contracted I think numerous diseases... KS... which disfigured his face, body etc... he contracted herpes... hpv... and had gonorrhea on more than one occassion... Note... herpes once contracted is with you for life... same as hpv... although treatable ...their not curable...so screw the Bare backing... also he contracted hep A-B... so I think the best scenerio is to practice safe as possible... Everyone on this forum did not practice safe sex at one time or another to contract hiv so why would anyone risk more exposure... even if its a small possibility?

Right... which is why I use protection... except for in the case of a monogamous relationship with a poz guy.

Other STDs can't help... any especially now being poz, I think picking up a dose of the clap would be a bit beneath me.   ;)

But condoms aren't all that useful in preventing transmission of herpes and HPV.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2007, 02:00:51 PM »
DAMNIT and I am SOOOO good at detecting Sarcasm!  Oh well....
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2007, 02:02:52 PM »
mmmm. ACinKC is sexy when he gets mad.. mmm..
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2007, 02:04:04 PM »
...  It has been Koi and his partner Scott instigating at every turn.  (Boo has kept the embers burning occaisonally as well!) 

AC, you're absolutely right (especially in regard to aupoint's refusal to stoop to their level).   I apologize, and I moved the "off-topic debate" to Off Topic, which I should have done initially:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8875.0

Boo
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:11:38 PM by Boo Radley »
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Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2007, 02:04:36 PM »
mmmm. ACinKC is sexy when he gets mad.. mmm..

I'm sexy all the time!  All the boys and girls want me!!  :-* ::)
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2007, 02:10:03 PM »
It has been Koi and his partner Scott instigating at every turn.

And it's not the first time.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2007, 02:13:32 PM »
I don't care to practice safer sex with someone else positive, because I flat out don't care about any possible risk because that supposed risk is virtually non-existant.   Can it happen?  Yes, but I can also get hit by a meteorite.  

On the scale of risk, it's nowhere near risky.   It's fear and those badgers, typically the newbies here, don't really understand nor do they seem to want to since they are coming from a perspective of trauma from being newly infected.   Blah blah blah.   Watching this thread is like being on a Sit & Spinô.   Keeps going round and round but you never get anywhere.

But it is amusing to watch the turdburglars.  

As for schools, William & Mary is a prestigious school and probably alot damn harder to get into than those supposed 'top ten'.  Size does not equate to quality.  

Bush went to Yale didn't he?  Doesn't seem like they are too picky.  ::)

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2007, 02:14:51 PM »
Philly you're not so innocent in this either!  LOL  While I agree with you I should note you have baited them some as well.  Not unjustly but you have!

You know I love ya philly! Mmmmmmmm philly, Im hungry time for a Pepperjax run!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:16:35 PM by ACinKC »
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2007, 02:16:13 PM »
But it is amusing to watch the turdburglars.  

Ummmm... WOW.  UNCALLED FOR in EVERY way!
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2007, 02:18:25 PM »

As for schools, William & Mary is a prestigious school and probably alot damn harder to get into than those supposed 'top ten'.  Size does not equate to quality.  

William & Mary, along with University of Virginia, are the most difficult schools to get into in Virginia.  They'd be private schools if Virginia had not had an early progressive attitude towards higher learning stemming from Thomas Jefferson.

And yes, I was accepted to both universities (though I declined and went elsewhere.)
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2007, 02:25:04 PM »
Everyone makes a good point but, unfortunately is it worth the risK? A friend of mine who lived in NYC recently passed away from some horrible complications... he had contracted I think numerous diseases... KS... which disfigured his face, body etc... he contracted herpes... hpv... and had gonorrhea on more than one occassion... Note... herpes once contracted is with you for life... same as hpv... although treatable ...their not curable...so screw the Bare backing... also he contracted hep A-B... so I think the best scenerio is to practice safe as possible... Everyone on this forum did not practice safe sex at one time or another to contract hiv so why would anyone risk more exposure... even if its a small possibility?

Matt mentioned no one he knows in a pos/pos relationship is using condoms.  Frankly, I don't know any either.  

This poster has come up with a scenario which is what would concern me the most, co infections of other STDs now called STI's or whatever.

For those who are having recreational sex with multiple partners I'd never advocate unsafe sex ever.   I also agree with Aupo on his statement about the issue of Walk the Talk.   Clearly, none of us are advocating unsafe sex, but I think it's an issue those of us already positive wonder about with the various ramifications and then some of these more outlandish theories and new stories.

I'm not gona comment further on the drama queens.   It's usually the same little clique of dysfunctional idiots who ruin every thread and I'd encourage the rest of you to report them to the moderators rather than fueling the fire of lunacy!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:31:47 PM by AustinWesley »
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2007, 02:27:18 PM »
Austin, you said

Quote
Clearly, I see a bigger risk for me (not on meds) with a partner (on meds). 

The risks are different.

Not on meds: the risk here is that the person on meds has a resistant strain that goes unnoticed eg by routine monitoring, a giant blip (it would have to be a biggie), bad adherence, a strain in a large enough quantity  transmit, get a foothold and expand. 

On meds: the risk here is that the person not on meds has a strain in a large enough quantity to transmit, get a foothold and expand.

I think the key word here is quantity.  The virus needs to be one that can affect disease progression eg resistant type, and unless it's dominating the "senders" viral population it is already in competition with the dominant strain.  Which is by definition fitter.  So there's a bit a viral war going on for pole position, and getting enough virus up to the pole, and the the question of meds/pre-infection = defense, and all that stuff, plus host factors eg receptivity to infection, route of transmission, coinfections.  So....

It is really hard

(a) to put a decent sized number on the risk eg 1 per 500.  We're talking low %, if not a fraction of a fraction of a %.  As ever, viral load is important, cos more virus = greater risk. There is a point where treated virus becomes "real world" untransmissable, as is witnessed by many studies on transmission in straight couples in Europe and Africa (ie, no transmissions where the person on treatment has a consistently undetectable load).  Gay men in serodiscordant relationships are clearly unworthy of being studied, though (we need a gay men's study please).

(b) say which is the "worse" risk, the risk to someone on meds or off. They's just got different implications. One compromises future treatment perhaps, one current.

- matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2007, 02:45:55 PM »
So, theoretically, one could be infected with eighteen or so strains, and if none of them are resistant to any medications... no one would really be able to tell if you're infected with however many strains you have?

This is what I was wondering.....I mean, are we basically saying that there are a lot of people who could have been superinfected but we don't know because clinic tests can't distinguish between that and natural mutations? 

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2007, 02:50:34 PM »

Why disregard using protection even if you are HIV positive? Don't you guys worry about other STD's and Hepatitis? Hepatitis C can kill you quicker than HIV if you are co-infected. Having HIV is enough for me, I am not gonna run around more docs appointments than I need just because I believe Superinfection is not real. If you wanna risk it then be my guest, let us know how it went.
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Ann

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2007, 02:52:53 PM »
Boo
scotttt
ACinKC
philly
ihavehope

The five of you have continued to hijack and in some cases, flame, in this thread despite  Andy's warning.

Do you guys seriously think everyone wants to wade through your hissy fits and one-upmanships? Superinfection and/or re-infection is a serious subject. Have some regard for the other users of this website or you'll end up with a time out.

NO FURTHER WARNINGS WILL BE ISSUED TO ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. If the senseless hijacks and flames continue, the person responsible will be given a time out. Enough is enough already.

Ann
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:55:08 PM by Ann »
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2007, 02:55:25 PM »
Why haven't Koi1 and Scott ALSO received warnings.  I'd like to know that.  If I'm to get one, than so should they.

Follow the timeline of the insults in the thread.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline manchesteruk

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2007, 03:02:59 PM »
This is a pretty interesting subject something that needs a lot more scientific investigation as well by the sounds of it.  So am I right in thinking there are basically thought to be two scenarios super infection which is extremely rare and involves developing an aggressive highly drug resistant strain.  And reinfection which theoretically has the potential to be a drug resistant strain?  Or have a put that far too simply?  I'd like to think I will always have protected sex no matter who with purely because of the very unpleasant experience of having syphilis and THOSE injections.  Saying this though as of yet i've not been in a situation where I would have to choose so I can't say that's what I would definately do.

Chris
Diagnosed 11/05

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Offline Ann

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2007, 03:42:15 PM »
philly,

They were warned and you'd know that if you'd bothered yourself to read Andy's warning. They stopped the crap. You kept it going. Keep it up, keep hijacking this thread, and you'll be timed out. If you want to moan about this further, use the report button instead of continuing the hijack.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline scotttt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2007, 03:44:49 PM »
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Read and weep, no William and Mary.  Sorry to be so petty but......


BTW these are the rankings of the National, read top schools.

Offline ryeguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2007, 03:53:12 PM »
Like oh My GOd.... Just all of you get over this topic. In the end we all decide for ourselves and no one has the right to judge. Safe or unsafe this has become like to 1993  backwoods  hickvill kindergšrten.

Offline Ann

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2007, 03:55:33 PM »
 
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Read and weep, no William and Mary.  Sorry to be so petty but......


BTW these are the rankings of the National, read top schools.

scott,

What did you not understand about my post four posts above yours? I said if you continued the hijack, you would be timed out.

See you in a week.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2007, 04:00:38 PM »
One person on here emailed their feelings.   I thought I'd share that person's thoughts and see what you think?

"Oh hey about SUPERINFECTION -  reinfection is real, superinfection is possibly sensationalism from the media - just another name. But there's little research on it I think because the reinfected progress to AIDS quickly and then the morgue.     But that's just my thinking - i'm talking out of my a&% again. Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2007, 04:02:25 PM »
The last line is the most poignant one. 
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline hussy_24

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2007, 04:08:23 PM »
i believe you can be infected with another strain of HIV, yes, there are what hiv-1, hiv-2? is that right?

but i like to think about it like this, from the time i was infected to the time i was diagnosed i did have a lot of sex, it was summer time after all..., so theoretically i could have been exposed to other strains even before diagnosis.

and any time you have sex after diagnosis there is of course a risk of being reinfected/superinfected, so theres not really anything you can do about it unless your in a stable relationship, everyone else who is more liberal/casual will always run the risk, and the risk can come from unprotected oral sex too and a gay man never (from my own experience) uses condoms for oral so for us its either take a vow of celibacy or just run the risk.

i wouldnt want more strains/reinfection/superinfection, but its so easy to get, theoretically, that you cant worry about it, taking a vow of celibacy would drive me more round the bend, but only from my own experience as if i could have mr right i would have had him before i was hiv and always feel like i wont ever find anyone now so casual is my only option, and yes lol am only 24 and thinking like this lol.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2007, 04:12:29 PM »
"Oh hey about SUPERINFECTION -  reinfection is real, superinfection is possibly sensationalism from the media - just another name. But there's little research on it I think because the reinfected progress to AIDS quickly and then the morgue.     But that's just my thinking - i'm talking out of my a&% again. Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."
I would like to see the evidence that reinfection automatically leads to fast progression to AIDS and death.

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2007, 04:39:49 PM »
"Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."

Amen to that!
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2007, 04:44:36 PM »
Dear All,

This is a subject which comes up regularly in the HIV world. About two years ago there was some headlining stuff about a case in New York. It still remains an unresolved issue.

What is especially troubling about it is that the idea of superinfection, though it remains essentially insufficiently documented, is used to re-ignite fears (and judgements) about promiscuity and about gay sex in particular. As we know, anti-gay judgements are all to easily ignited. As with so much of the history of the epidemic, this isn't just about science. It's also about prejudice and politics.

In the mix as well of this situation are the better documented concerns on the part of the NYC Dept. of Health about the role that crystal meth use in particular plays in unprotected intercourse. So a number of factors come together around this question. Thus far there remains insufficient proof regarding superinfection. What we do know is that the use of crystal meth unquestionably encourages unsafe sex and that unsafe sex can lead to new infections as well as vulnerability to other (and serious) STDs.

Solid proof of superinfection remains an open question. More serious study is needed to determine what is really true about it and its effect on disease progression.

That's how I see where it's at.  

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:47:12 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2007, 04:47:08 PM »
I still haven't heard any reply on these ideas of using HIV pills to prevent a negative partner from getting HIV?   Here's another story.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14171323

In this case, they are using Viread

So, wouldn't it seem that if they are trying to market this to uninfected people that it's likely the drugs in the same class would also have a similar effect thereby preventing reinfection?


« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:49:35 PM by AustinWesley »
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2007, 04:49:34 PM »
I not only tempted fate.  I barebacked him.  He was a lousy lay though.  

I come down on the side that there are overly sensationalist news reports and from burglars within our own community which have an agenda of their own.

Reinfections, superinfections... it's all pish posh to me...and that's not a new spice girl.

Don't buy it. Don't beLIEve it and will go on barebacking with other pozzies as the Adventureô continues.   Of course, my adventure is pretty much going home to snuggle with my puppy nowadays.  

I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live.

edit:  austin... there has been some exploration into the idea of using a pre-exposure pill much like PEP is used after an exposure... but pep is done for 30 days and people, notably club/drug users, have been known to take these to enjoy a carefree night on the town.

They are deluding themselves.  It doesn't work.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:53:01 PM by DingoBoi »

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2007, 04:51:21 PM »
"I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live."

It's easier said than done.


Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2007, 04:51:42 PM »
Using a condom is much cheaper and probably more effective than taking HIV meds to prevent HIV.  I don't see anyone realistically paying HIV drug prices, (and I certainly don't see any insurance companies/government footing the bill), to prevent HIV.  Plus why deal with the side effects (and toxicity) of taking HIV meds, if you aren't HIV positive?

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2007, 04:55:59 PM »
Well, I know when the first story broke my partner who was negative considered it although it wasn't approved yet.   Indeed, it wasn't going to be covered by insurance and the cost was $600/mo.   Had it been an option I think he would have gone for it.

Anyways, aside from that my point is that if Viread prevents infection wouldn't those other drugs in the same class likely do the same thing making reinfection a non issue?

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2007, 04:59:10 PM »
"I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live."

It's easier said than done.

You're right.  You are completely right...

That's the thing about not living through fear... no one said it would be easy.  But I'll tell you a secret... it's a lot easier on you than being fearful all the time. 

And I'm being completely serious. 
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2007, 04:59:38 PM »
"I'm not about to live my life through fear.  It's a sad way to live."

It's easier said than done.


It's pretty easy.  I drink alot. :)   Though I'm not sure what context your are responding in.  

The fear of realistically getting reinfection or superinfection does not exist in my world so I am not afraid of it.  It's not rocket science.   Not sure if you were responding to that or something my general like.. all we have to fear is fear itself kinda hoohaa or being afraid of the 'future'.  

I'll tell you the ending... we all die.  Sorry if that spoiled the story for you.  I'll always advocate quality over quantity.   Besides, I'm too vain to get all wrinkly.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #121 on: February 12, 2007, 05:02:48 PM »
Anyways, aside from that my point is that if Viread prevents infection wouldn't those other drugs in the same class likely do the same thing making reinfection a non issue?
All HIV meds, not just those in the same class as Viread, could prevent reinfection/superinfection....and by that, I mean, if it reduced your viral load (preferably to undetectable) then there isn't much virus to transmit to someone else (your viral load plays a big part in determine how infecteous you are).  I don't think you can conclude it would make reinfection a "non issue", cause folks are not always undetectable.  But yes, being on HIV meds does help to lower the risk of reinfection/superinfection.

$600 a month, plus the added benefit of side effects, just to prevent HIV seems irrational to me.  Buy a beamer and a monthly box of condoms instead.   ;D

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2007, 05:05:18 PM »
After reading all the posts that are about the subject, I have a hard time,wrapping my head around it. From what I am seeing here, I don't feel it is worth the risk to go unprotected. It seems like there are too many unknown variables. Yes, love is grand and it would be great to find another to be  in a +/+ relationship but if you loved someone wouldn't you want them to be around as long as possible? Wouldn't that make you want to be protected? I may be wrong in saying this but it seems like most is going on how nice it would be to just fuck w/o a condom and the hell with the risks because you are in love. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but just saying.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2007, 05:14:09 PM »
All HIV meds, not just those in the same class as Viread, could prevent reinfection/superinfection....and by that, I mean, if it reduced your viral load (preferably to undetectable) then there isn't much virus to transmit to someone else (your viral load plays a big part in determine how infecteous you are).  I don't think you can conclude it would make reinfection a "non issue", cause folks are not always undetectable.  But yes, being on HIV meds does help to lower the risk of reinfection/superinfection.

$600 a month, plus the added benefit of side effects, just to prevent HIV seems irrational to me.  Buy a beamer and a monthly box of condoms instead.   ;D

Cliff,
LOL, I never said he was rational ; )   It wasn't my idea and I'd never try to convince a neg. partner to take HIV meds instead of using safe sex.  Thank you for your opinions.

Queen,
In a perfect world everyone would have safe sex, but since we know that doesn't happen I think the issue is a valid one.  And yes, it's nice to be able to read actual related information finally ;)   Thanks Ann!  ; )

Andy,
I tend to agree with you that some of these sensationalized stories are slanted and used to demonize gay men.    Notice we've never heard of a straight person having a superinfection of HIV.   Something to think about!
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2007, 05:15:35 PM »
Quote
Yes, love is grand and it would be great to find another to be  in a +/+ relationship but if you loved someone wouldn't you want them to be around as long as possible? Wouldn't that make you want to be protected?

For two positive people on treatment with consistently undetectable viral load the risk is so small (like a fraction of a % to zero) I think it's neither here nor there.  If UK guidelines on conception can recommend that, under certain circumstances eg undetectable viral load, no coinfections, a positive-negative couple can use a natural method for conception because the risk of transmission is much less than a fraction of a %, this must also appliy to reinfection. If it was common you;d expect it to happen at least as often as 1st time infections, or fairly often and, well, at most a few dozen (reported) possible cases that have affected treatment badly in 1.3 million+ HIV cases in the developed world....

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:17:18 PM by newt »
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2007, 05:42:20 PM »
Matt mentioned no one he knows in a pos/pos relationship is using condoms.  Frankly, I don't know any either.  


Heck, Wesley... I've been hard pressed to find poz guys who use condoms at all with other poz guys.  There are a few I know who 'talk' about it, but rarely practice it, at least from what I can surmise.   
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2007, 05:43:35 PM »

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt


I'd have to echo this sentiment.  Each of us has to decide for himself what is an acceptable level of risk.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline Queen Tokelove

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2007, 07:16:08 PM »
For two positive people on treatment with consistently undetectable viral load the risk is so small (like a fraction of a % to zero) I think it's neither here nor there.  If UK guidelines on conception can recommend that, under certain circumstances eg undetectable viral load, no coinfections, a positive-negative couple can use a natural method for conception because the risk of transmission is much less than a fraction of a %, this must also appliy to reinfection. If it was common you;d expect it to happen at least as often as 1st time infections, or fairly often and, well, at most a few dozen (reported) possible cases that have affected treatment badly in 1.3 million+ HIV cases in the developed world....

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt


Thanks for the input, Newt. I hope you can tolerate my questions. Ok, now if both people were consistently undetectable, I can see the low risk. Here comes the what if, what if that was to change in one of the partners, maybe not a drastic change but a change nonetheless, wouldn't it then put them at risk?

Austin~~

Yeah, I know it's not a Walgreen's commercial of a perfect world. Maybe it's just my thinking but I just feel that when you are already poz you got enough going against you. Why would you make it worse but possibly infecting yourself again. No matter how small the risk. Isn't that like playing roulette? But then as Newt says "people must make up their own minds".
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2007, 07:16:39 PM »
Heck, Wesley... I've been hard pressed to find poz guys who use condoms at all with other poz guys.  There are a few I know who 'talk' about it, but rarely practice it, at least from what I can surmise.   

Yeah that's pretty much what I've found and I have to admit that since diagnosis I have mainly had unprotected sex with other poz guys.  I didn't gain any resistance during that time, I don't know if that's luck or statistics but I do know I felt very relieved when I knew I could start on meds with the full range open to me.  

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV.  That, and the thought that one day I might be unlucky and get another strain is seriously making me consider how I approach my sex life from this point onwards.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2007, 07:35:29 PM »
Thanks for the input, Newt. I hope you can tolerate my questions. Ok, now if both people were consistently undetectable, I can see the low risk. Here comes the what if, what if that was to change in one of the partners, maybe not a drastic change but a change nonetheless, wouldn't it then put them at risk?

Austin~~

Yeah, I know it's not a Walgreen's commercial of a perfect world. Maybe it's just my thinking but I just feel that when you are already poz you got enough going against you. Why would you make it worse but possibly infecting yourself again. No matter how small the risk. Isn't that like playing roulette? But then as Newt says "people must make up their own minds".

Hey Queen,

I don't want to give out the impression that I'm somehow endorsing unprotected casual sex.   I had my one partner tested for everything under the sun cause the last thing I wanted was a secondary issue.  Of course, that was right after my diag. so I was ubber paranoid.   I guess after learning more today on the benefit of meds preventing reinfection or transmission that is one more reason to consider them sooner for me.  It would definitely help me with anxiety should I end up in another mixed relationship or any for that matter.

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2007, 07:42:16 PM »
I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV.  That, and the thought that one day I might be unlucky and get another strain is seriously making me consider how I approach my sex life from this point onwards.

I don't blame you for being worried about hep.  or syphilis.   or all the other nasties that hang around in our nether regions.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #131 on: February 12, 2007, 07:44:01 PM »

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV. 

Plus, Hep C= No more drinking.  Ever.

I am completely not kidding when I say that's enough to make me vigilant.

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline marc11864

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #132 on: February 12, 2007, 07:45:37 PM »
Dare I weigh in on any of this?

These are the only things that I'll weigh in on at the moment... I don't get online much now, I can't afford a time out.  ;D

RE: Wesley's initial post
Quote
...news stories about some HIV pill that could be prescribed to a negative partner (I forget the name)?

While there are a number of therapies that are currently being looked at, last year the drugs most often cited were Truvada or Tenofovir. Both are being looked at extensively as a course of PReP (PRe Exposure Propylaxisis). This as opposed to PEP (Post Exposure Prophylaxsis). Information about initial studies, which were on a very limited scale are shown in the attached image. Additional studies sponsored by the CDC and NIH involving Heterosexual men and women, MSMs as well as IV drug users are expected to be completed between 2008 and 2010. These trials, currently underway or soon to begin will include Thailand, the U.S., Botswana, and Ecuador/Peru. For additional information... GOOGLE IT! :P

RE: Reply # 1
Quote
I am no Dr. but I remember that about 2 years ago progressed from a fresh infection to Aids and death within 6 months. All drug combos failed on him and this was all proven.

The patient did develop what is called 3-DCR HIV or 3 Drug Combination Resistant HIV. According to confirmed data the patient was infected with multiple versions of already drug resistant HIV. Most likely this happened while engaging in unprotected anal receptive sex with multiple partners while high on methamphetamine. It is also confirmed that he indeed quickly progressed to having AIDS however, there was a newer class of drug that he was not resistant to and was responding well to. I can find no confirmation anywhere that he died.

Anyone have an aspirin? I've got a headache now from havin to read so many replies to a thread started within the last two days  ::)


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Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #133 on: February 12, 2007, 07:51:32 PM »
Marc, I've heard of using certain meds in that regard as a solution for negative partners of poz people to use as PreP.  But I always thought it seemed way too bulky in nature.  I mean, poz people have a hard enough time dealing with the side-effects, and some of the side effects of these drugs can be pretty nasty...

The only reason we put up with them is because it keeps our viral loads at bay and we need them... I just don't see that being practical on a mass scale for HIV- people... I wish it was... but I don't see how it could be worked out...   

Edited to Add: Especially in light of the cost of these drugs...
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2007, 08:00:40 PM »
Hello Austin,

If you read the following link from the lessons, it may or may not help to answer some of your questions.
Make sure to read the entire page.

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/718_4739.shtml



Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of DEC 9th, 2013,  t-cells are at 437 Viral load  <40 .

 Current % is at 16% (L)

  
 62 years young.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2007, 09:50:21 PM »
Hey Ray,

Thank you for shedding some light on the subject.  I'd encourage everyone who's interested to read that information.   

It didn't answer all my questions related to the topic namely the pos/pos transmission issue if both were on meds and undectable.

However, it did cover a lot of the confusing basics and clarified some definitions up.

Thanks again,

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline marc11864

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2007, 12:08:51 AM »
Well Benj,

The way I see it, why should we have all the fun?  ;D

Seriously though IMHO, this is food for thought. I think most people would have a much better understanding of  this aspect of our lives and what it is like to be HIV+ if they chose to take these meds at least for a one month period.

And of course I still fantasize about a utopian ideal where health care is afforded to everyone regardless of income or geographic location  ::)

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but maybe availing these meds on a grander scale would drive the costs down more too.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #137 on: February 13, 2007, 12:24:24 AM »
Well Benj,

The way I see it, why should we have all the fun?  ;D

Seriously though IMHO, this is food for thought. I think most people would have a much better understanding of  this aspect of our lives and what it is like to be HIV+ if they chose to take these meds at least for a one month period.

And of course I still fantasize about a utopian ideal where health care is afforded to everyone regardless of income or geographic location  ::)

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but maybe availing these meds on a grander scale would drive the costs down more too.

You're definitely right... it is food for thought.  And it's a very interesting proposition... but I do wonder about the willingness of HIV- people to know what it's like to be poz... of course, if people are in a relationship, it could be different.  But until the toxicity of the meds is knocked down substantially further... I don't know if any doctor would dream of putting a neggie on them.  And God... what insurance company would cover a neggie for those meds?

And speaking of...

I too fantasize about that day that comes when the US institutes universal health care... oh God, do I fantasize about that day!

And we should have more fun because... we're um... I'm gonna go with awesome.  Yes.  Awesome.   ;)

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline ndrew

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2007, 12:35:36 AM »
The term "super infection" is such a meme, so sticky and overripe... I hate the media.

Drew

Offline marc11864

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #139 on: February 13, 2007, 08:59:11 AM »
"How's your infection today?"

"It's SUPER, thanks for asking!"



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Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.

Offline redhotmuslbear

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2007, 09:46:46 AM »
The term "super infection" is such a meme, so sticky and overripe... I hate the media.


Hate the medical community going back well before the acknowledgement of HIV, not the media, for the term "super-infection," since doctors created to express a real phenomenon.

If your beef is with "super-bug" or "super-virus," the blame may lie with public health officials and/or researchers, as well.
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do." - BF Skinner
12-31-09   222wks VL  2430 CD4 690 (37%)
09-30-09   208wks VL  2050  CD4 925 (42%)
06-25-08   143wks VL  1359  CD4 668 (32%)  CD8 885
02-11-08   123wks off meds:  VL 1364 CD4 892(40%/0.99 ratio)
10-19-07   112wks off meds:   VL 292  CD4 857(37%/0.85 ratio)

One copy of delta-32 for f*****d up CCR5 receptors, and an HLA B44+ allele for "CD8-mediated immunity"... beteer than winning Powerball, almost!

Offline David_CA

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #141 on: February 13, 2007, 07:50:38 PM »
Forget Keisha, where is SD Girl, Aidsmeds own reigning queen of mean.  I suspect she might be flying on her broom somewhere over San Diego as we speak, or should I say, type.

She is always good at chewing someone a new one whenever that person stands up against the group think so prevalent on this website. 

Some of you sound like a bunch of trash talking seventh grade girls, trying to sound so hard core, when in fact you are merely insecure children hiding from your own boogeymen.

I love when the crew of Aupoint and Silly Philly strap on board.  You girls don't have a lot going on in your personal life do you, that is, to have so much time to troll this website.  Many of us are growing bored with your rantings.


Now what the hell does this have to do with superinfection? 
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
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Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #142 on: February 13, 2007, 08:17:06 PM »
As far as 2 hiv positives people having sex on a ha art therapy, ( I know I'm gonna get lynched for this but here it goes) as long as both viral loads are undetectable and both parties are on a ha art therapy I see little danger of a double infection or a supervirus evolving as the chances of infection with no or little viral load is nearly impossible.

No lynching from me, Ryeguy. ;)

Interesting hypothesis, but I for one wouldn't be willing to gamble to find out. To me it wouldn't be worth the risk.

I was advised early after diagnosis to take precautions against getting doubly- or re-infected, and that still makes the most sense to me.

Daniel

I still think this is the biggest issue that most don't talk about.   Having gone through all of the various opinions back and forth I was wondering if we had any couples out there who had an opinion on this?   

W
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
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Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #143 on: February 13, 2007, 08:19:56 PM »
My bf and I never use condoms.
I still have exactly the same strain i've always had.
So does he.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #144 on: February 13, 2007, 08:21:56 PM »
Yes, but do one of you have a virus that's mutated to everything but fuzeon and the other one is fine with all medications?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #145 on: February 13, 2007, 08:26:35 PM »
I'm on meds, he's not.

Each of us determines his own acceptable level of risk.
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline lydgate

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #146 on: February 13, 2007, 08:38:03 PM »
Plus, Hep C= No more drinking.  Ever.

I am completely not kidding when I say that's enough to make me vigilant.



The site's lesson on Hep C transmission:

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/1657_9985.shtml
Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #147 on: February 13, 2007, 08:38:45 PM »
I'm on meds, he's not.

Each of us determines his own acceptable level of risk.


I understand that, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything.  I'm just generally curious whether or not the situation I stated could actually MEDICALLY happen... more for my own information in the future.  I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  You used to hear about "re-infection" stuff all the time from doctors, and I don't think I've heard the term in the past few years.  Just wondering.

What you do in your personal life sexually while somewhat titillating and stuff doesn't really interesting me... we're all adults who are consenting.  Maybe my question in your case would be, if you had a virus that was totally mutated to all PI's and NNRTI's would you advise your partner who is positive, yet on no medication, to use a condom?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #148 on: February 13, 2007, 10:23:10 PM »
I am not expert enough to give such advice.  He's generally as informed about this subject as anyone and makes his own choices.   

I was on a cross infection study in Seattle for about eight years.  Like I said, I still have the same strain I started out with, and no others.  These results are not atypical, although I can't say they are conclusive.   I don't actually know.
*** if you google this issue and look at the studies, you will find the results to be inconclusive. ***

I am not trying to persuade this conversation one way or another.  I firmly believe that individuals need to make their own choices on this subject.  It is not my position to criticize anyone's choices regarding whether they use a condom with a poz partner or not. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 10:25:01 PM by dtwpuck »
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2007, 12:43:06 AM »
Let's be clear about a few things. The term "Superinfection" was not invented by the media. It is a virological term that has been incorrectly picked up by the media and has been banded around interchangeably with "Super virus". Superinfection, as newt said, means "on top of". Superinfection is where you repeatedly infect the same cell with more virus - be it the same strain or a different one. It's been around for longer than HIV. Sadly, with our ever hysterical media, this has been blown out of all proportion.

I have read papers in the journal of Virology that state cases of superinfection. However, they were from sex workers that have had frequent exposures. They know that the person has been infected with two different viruses as they came from different clades.

So what is the danger of superinfection? A single cell infected by two different HIV strains will allow viral recombination within that cell to produce something that wasn't around before. Superinfection has been blamed for hybrid HIV viruses - although I haven't read the data to support that. I guess the danger would be that if you were resistant to NNRTIs and were infected with a PI resistant virus they would recombine to make a virus resistant to both and deliver unwanted multidrug resistance. Indeed, you could argue that if you had mutations that gave low resistance to a drug and were superinfected with a virus containing mutations that augmented this mutation you could get drug resistance where it wasn't seen before.

However, what really is the risk? It's hard to quantify as the numbers of actual superinfections remains low - and often come from drug users or people who frequently have unprotected sex and are at multiple risks. What chance therefore of being superinfected and the two viruses conspiring to create a virus that is now resistant to something you were taking. Probably very low. However, there are documented cases of HIV superinfection and the relevance of this and frequency has to be determined. Only then can we quantify the risk to people getting multidrug resistance.

To answer Cliff's question, if you get superinfected with another virus does that mean you will die in 6 months. Probably not. Let's be clear about something. HIV mutates every day in millions of people. If it could come up with a combination that killed all people rapidly I believe it would have done so by now. Viruses produced from superinfection might be bad for a particular person based on their immune response to that HIV but it doesn't translate that this virus is a rapid killer.

I hope that clears up a few myths..

Rich
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline lydgate

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #150 on: February 14, 2007, 12:56:31 AM »
Thanks Rich, for that. I think it might be useful if you could clarify, for us laypeople, the distinction between superinfection, re-infection, and co-infection?

Also, a comment on the statistic often bandied about: that the rate of superinfection in newly infected gay men is 5%.

Jay
Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #151 on: February 14, 2007, 01:02:36 AM »
Jay,

I can't comment on the 5% of gay men being infected but I did see something about that in a paper today...although I don't think it went into the statistics.

To clarify the other question..

For this discussion, superinfection and re-infection are the same thing. Let's be clear we are only talking about HIV.

Coinfection would be where you get two distinct viruses at the time of transmission. When I say distinct this could mean infection with a 'wild type' strain and mutant strain of the same clade or two or more different clades. This is distinct to coinfection with HepC and HIV, which is the other time you will read the term co-infection. This relates to coinfection of two distinct types of viruses and would be the correct term for infection of HIV with any other virus at the same time.

HOWEVER, if someone has become infected with two different HIV viruses, that person is said to be 'co-infected with <insert HIV types>'. This would be as a result of superinfection/reinfection

I hope that clarifies..

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline lydgate

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #152 on: February 14, 2007, 01:06:19 AM »
Thanks Rich. This is one of the 5% articles I read. This one's by Keith Henry from thebody.com from 2004. I've sen several others on aidsmap etc.

February 9, 2004

Dr. Smith and colleagues presented their experience looking for cases of HIV superinfection in the cohort of HIV-positive patients that they followed after identification of primary infection.
The topic of superinfection is important for several reasons. First, it provides important insight into protective anti-HIV immunity. The issue is whether the innate anti-HIV immunity that evolves in an infected person can prevent infection with a second strain of HIV. That is important clinically since a few anecdotal reports have suggested that superinfection can lead to more rapid deterioration of a patient's immune status. It is also important from the public health perspective with implications for the potential efficacy of a vaccine to prevent infection.

Several definitions need to be clarified. Co-infection describes when someone is initially infected with two strains, while with superinfection a patient is infected with one strain and then with another strain. Superinfection has been observed in some chimpanzee models and has been inferred from recombination analysis but is still a rarely documented clinical event.

Smith reported the results of a retrospective analysis of trials of primary infection in a cohort of 78 men who have sex with men (MSM) during their first six months living with HIV infection. These men were not yet on antiretroviral therapy. Samples of virus underwent pol gene sequencing and if isolates didn't cluster then env sequencing was done.

Three cases of possible superinfection with another type B virus were identified and then confirmed by clonal sequencing of env and pol sequences. All three men had a change in the reverse transcriptase sequence that could impact drug sensitivity. When those three patients were evaluated six months after acquiring the second strain, a negative impact on the CD4 count and RNA level was seen.

The 5% rate of superinfection is about the same rate as at risk infection initial infection in high-risk populations in the U.S. The interpretation was that there was no protection afforded by the initial HIV infection against superinfection. Dr. Smith said that the lab approach may underestimate the true rate of superinfection due to sensitivity issues with the assays used. It seems to me that a group of MSM with fairly recent HIV infection may represent a group with a higher than average risk for acquiring additional HIV so that extrapolation to the general MSM population may overestimate the overall risk. Whatever the actual rate is, these data add to the literature about superinfection and support enhanced emphasis on harm reduction counseling. A question from the audience highlighted that of the three cases reported, two had been previously reported in other reports. Clearly the topic is of interest and more studies looking at the rate and impact of superinfection are needed.


Reference

Abstract: Incidence of HIV Superinfection Following Primary Infection (Oral 21)
Authored by: D. Smith, J. Wong, G. Hightower, K. Kolesch, C. Ignacio, E. Daar, D. Richman, S. Little
Affiliations: Univ. of California, San Diego, CA; Univ. of California, Los Angeles, CA; San Diego VA Healthcare Systems, La Jolla, CA

Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Offline ndrew

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #153 on: February 14, 2007, 01:23:57 AM »
I don't know anything here, but I wonder if superinfection could have positive results?  Like a the viruses combined and became non-resistant?

??
Drew

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #154 on: February 14, 2007, 02:30:14 AM »
typically... a single viral strain become dominant... and that is most often the wild type...  So, me having the wild type with no resistance (but a couple mutations) having sex with someone who does have resistant virus is not likely to transmit that resistance to me.  hence, very little worrying over this issue for me. 

My theory on this is that those who have become 'superinfected' have been extreme drug users/bingers and were repeatedly exposed to multiple strains in a very immune weakened condition, which may have let those other strains 'gain hold'.

I believe that somebody who is relatively healthy has no worry about reinfection or superifection due to natural body mechanics. 

Of course, that 'theory' presents a scenario of only having limited partners in good health, which is what I do....or at least hope to do again someday. 

Behavior such as extreme drugging (weakinging the immune system) and whoring (fucking tons of guys) could just get you there.. maybe.

But even that seems such a remote and far-fetched scenario that it just seem ridiculous to worry about.

I will be willing to test this theory with several members here to be sure... contact me via pm.  It's all for 'science' after all.   

Hey, I'm a giver.


Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #155 on: February 14, 2007, 07:22:48 AM »
Ndrew,

Sadly Darwin evolution suggests that your theory that the virus will mutate into something more benign is sadly unlikely. If there is drug selection pressure and the virus can gain an advantage by recombination it will.

I'm not sure I follow Dingo's "dormant" idea but it wouldn't typically be would occur. Superinfection does occur and having the virus already only limits your chances of getting it again - it doesn't eliminate it.

While I am convinced it can happen, the only relevant argument here is how frequently it would happen and who is at risk. The reports I have read do study people who have unprotected sex a lot and have multiple exposures. The reason they are most studied is that they are more likely to find a result of superinfection in those people given the number of sexual engagements. I guess my question is if you don't care about superinfection and have unprotected sex with a number of people, this exposes you to a similar rate to the people studied in those papers.

I guess the bottom line is that given the number of studies it is hard to get values and trends from such a low number of people. Papers often talk only of a single case study - because there are few assays designed to monitor superinfection rapidly in a large number of people. This technology is coming online and I am sure someone like the NIH will do such a study in large numbers...if they haven't already. Then we should get a look at the magnitude of the problem. Until that point (and it might have been done already) we are only basing theory on extrapolation of data from a small n-number of people. Sort of like trying to quantify how many people will die of mad cow disease based on a few people who have it...

Rich
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #156 on: February 14, 2007, 08:09:10 AM »
I'm curious as to:

1) Why is there such a strong link between the term superinfection/reinfection and drug resistance?  Isn't it more likely that reinfection occurs with wild type viruses?  I say that because aren't most drug resistant strains not as fit as wild-type strains?  Therefore wouldn't a drug resistant strain have a harder time establishing itself (assuming the host isn't on the meds that this strain is resistant to)?

Basically, people (HIV positive folks) now assume that superinfection means drug resistance....but that's not the case.

2) Do the medical community call reinfections for other diseases superinfections?  I've heard the term reinfection used before.  I have never heard of superinfection, until it was discussed in the context of HIV.

3) The 5% figure quoted in that study.  If they only studied men who were recently infected, could that potentially overstate the risk?  I always thought your immune system was most at risk for reinfection during primary infections because your body was still building up its immune defenses to HIV, and that once you were in the chronic phase it was more difficult to acquire a new strain because your body offerred more protection.

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #157 on: February 14, 2007, 08:34:57 AM »
Cliff,

They do use the term superinfection for other viruses. HCV being another example. It is more commonly used for the few viruses that are chronic infections.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/510858

Why is superinfection more linked with resistance? Because that's the danger. It does happen with non-mutant viruses too, but it is more talked about with resistance because superinfection allows recombination - giving HIV the chance to shuffle it's genome with another HIV from another person.

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline newt

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #158 on: February 14, 2007, 09:24:48 AM »

The best lay summary of the science, but not too dumb, that I have found is here:

CAPS Fact Sheet - What do we know about HIV superinfection?

There are serious methodological problems with proving second infections are second infections.  For example, a review of all the research on superinfection in 2005 by Julia Marcus found no reported cases of superinfection in which a source partner for the second virus was identified. A person with a dual infection at baseline may express the 2 viruses one after the other, thus appearing to be superinfected. It is also very hard to show that a second strain that pops up was not present at baseline.

As part of the San Francisco arm of the Acute Infection and Early Disease Research Program, dual/sequential/super infection was  looked for. The estimated incidence was 2.1%, which is comparable to the 5% reported by Smith and colleagues. In the SF work, out of 192 person-years of follow-up, 4 cases of possible superinfection were found.  Problems about showing superinfection rather than dual infection at baseline noted above mean these remain possible either way. The San Francisco Positive Partners study found no possible cases of superinfection after 233 person-years of follow up. Etc etc including a similar finding for a cohort of IV drug users....

We don't know a lot about this.  For one we don't actually know that it happens at all, we just surmise based on highly suggestive evidence.  We don't know if it happens, why it happens.  We don't know if it happens, whether combo protects against superinfection, including resistant type.   We don't know why it appears to happen in the first 3 years of being HIV+ and not at all, or 1 in 1 million cases, later on. Etc etc. We don't know why in some cases it appears to affect disease progression and others not.

All we really know is that a small number of apparent superinfection cases have occurred during the first three years of infection, and studies of people with long term infection have found no evidence of superinfection, and that there are about 2 dozen cases of resistance etc compromising treatment that are attributed possibly to superinfection.

hmmm

- matt
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 09:26:43 AM by newt »
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Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2007, 09:37:16 AM »
I think I'm gonna stop worrying about this.  Basically it seems like no-one knows and there a ton of variables so it would only be a waste of my mental energy.

Offline koi1

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2007, 10:02:40 AM »
I think the biggest threat by far is drug resistance which is very real.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline Cliff

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2007, 10:44:21 AM »
I think the biggest threat by far is drug resistance which is very real.
Drug resistance in what sense?  Are you talking about from an adherence point of view (no skipping meds) or are you referring to drug resistance created because of a super/re-infection?

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #162 on: February 14, 2007, 01:01:08 PM »
I think I'm gonna stop worrying about this.  Basically it seems like no-one knows and there a ton of variables so it would only be a waste of my mental energy.

I'm with you on this. 

I have enough to worry about, like that time my mom somehow forgot to tell me about my cousin who was taking antibiotics for TB when we went to visit them... and CD4s, and viral load, and my job, and meds, and all that crap... I don't think I'm going to let such a wildly hypothetical case bother me too much.

It's under "who scooped the litterbox" but above "dammit, we don't have HBO."
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline racingmind

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #163 on: February 14, 2007, 01:05:08 PM »
Wow, my head is spinning....

Sometimes I think it would be better to never have sex again.....this seems like all too much to think about.

Is sex really worth it anymore?  It seems like everyone has something to lose....

It makes me sad that I'm probably never really going to enjoy sex again.  There is just too much that can possibly happen as a result of it......so what's the point?
Tested Negative: 5/06
Tested Positive: 9/06 
9/06: CD4: 442 (28%) VL: +100,000
10/06: CD4: 323 (25%) VL: 243,440
11/06: CD4: 405 (28%) VL: 124,324
12/06: CD4: 450 (29%) VL: 114,600
1/07: CD4: 440 (27%) VL: 75,286
3/07: CD4: 459 (30%) VL: 44,860
5/07: CD4: 353 (24%) VL: 50,852
7/07: CD4: 437 (29%) VL: 39,475
9/07: CD4: 237 (32%) VL: 372,774
10/07: CD4: 324 (27%) VL: 115,454 
Started Atripla: 10/07
11/07: CD4: 524 (?%) VL: Undetectable!
2/08: CD4: 653 (35%) VL: undetectable
5/08: CD4: 822 (40%) VL: undetectable
8/08: CD4: 626 (35%) VL: undetectable
12/08: CD4: 619 (36%) VL: undetectable
3/09: CD4: 802 (38%) VL: undetectable
7/09: CD4: 1027 (43%) VL: not tested
10/09: CD4: 1045 (43%) VL: undetectable

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #164 on: February 14, 2007, 01:36:36 PM »
Wow, my head is spinning....

Sometimes I think it would be better to never have sex again.....this seems like all too much to think about.

Is sex really worth it anymore?  It seems like everyone has something to lose....

It makes me sad that I'm probably never really going to enjoy sex again.  There is just too much that can possibly happen as a result of it......so what's the point?

Do you normally use condoms?  If you do then you really shouldn't be worrying about this.  If, like me, you don't then it's food for thought definetely, but you shouldn't let things like this ruin your sex life.

Offline racingmind

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #165 on: February 14, 2007, 02:18:37 PM »
Yes, I use condoms for anal sex....it's oral sex that I worry about.  Yes, I know they say that it's not that risky...if there are no open sores/cuts/etc in the mouth or on the genitals...but I still wonder.  I mean, it's friggin microscopic....

I just don't want to pass it on or worsen my already bad situation.  And I'd rather not have sex at all then use condoms for oral sex....

maybe I'm just paranoid........ :-\
Tested Negative: 5/06
Tested Positive: 9/06 
9/06: CD4: 442 (28%) VL: +100,000
10/06: CD4: 323 (25%) VL: 243,440
11/06: CD4: 405 (28%) VL: 124,324
12/06: CD4: 450 (29%) VL: 114,600
1/07: CD4: 440 (27%) VL: 75,286
3/07: CD4: 459 (30%) VL: 44,860
5/07: CD4: 353 (24%) VL: 50,852
7/07: CD4: 437 (29%) VL: 39,475
9/07: CD4: 237 (32%) VL: 372,774
10/07: CD4: 324 (27%) VL: 115,454 
Started Atripla: 10/07
11/07: CD4: 524 (?%) VL: Undetectable!
2/08: CD4: 653 (35%) VL: undetectable
5/08: CD4: 822 (40%) VL: undetectable
8/08: CD4: 626 (35%) VL: undetectable
12/08: CD4: 619 (36%) VL: undetectable
3/09: CD4: 802 (38%) VL: undetectable
7/09: CD4: 1027 (43%) VL: not tested
10/09: CD4: 1045 (43%) VL: undetectable

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #166 on: February 14, 2007, 04:31:17 PM »
Yes, I use condoms for anal sex....it's oral sex that I worry about.  Yes, I know they say that it's not that risky...if there are no open sores/cuts/etc in the mouth or on the genitals...but I still wonder.  I mean, it's friggin microscopic....

I just don't want to pass it on or worsen my already bad situation.  And I'd rather not have sex at all then use condoms for oral sex....

maybe I'm just paranoid........ :-\

I've givenn a lot of oral sex with this damn bug over the past couple years... and I've yet to catch something else. 

The risk is still there... but it's pretty minimal.  You're so much more likely to get something from unprotected intercourse.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #167 on: February 14, 2007, 04:38:59 PM »
Yeah I mean, I have NEVER come across a gay guy who uses condoms for oral sex.  Honestly, I'm not sure they even exist.   :D  The chances of getting HIV from oral sex is extremely small in itself, the chances of superinfection would be absolutely miniscule.  If you worried about the theoretical risk for everything then you honestly would never do anything.  Seriously, I really don't believe it's even an issue.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #168 on: February 14, 2007, 04:48:58 PM »
Let's be clear about a few things. The term "Superinfection" was not invented by the media. It is a virological term that has been incorrectly picked up by the media and has been banded around interchangeably with "Super virus". Superinfection, as newt said, means "on top of". Superinfection is where you repeatedly infect the same cell with more virus - be it the same strain or a different one. It's been around for longer than HIV. Sadly, with our ever hysterical media, this has been blown out of all proportion.

I have read papers in the journal of Virology that state cases of superinfection. However, they were from sex workers that have had frequent exposures. They know that the person has been infected with two different viruses as they came from different clades.

So what is the danger of superinfection? A single cell infected by two different HIV strains will allow viral recombination within that cell to produce something that wasn't around before. Superinfection has been blamed for hybrid HIV viruses - although I haven't read the data to support that. I guess the danger would be that if you were resistant to NNRTIs and were infected with a PI resistant virus they would recombine to make a virus resistant to both and deliver unwanted multidrug resistance. Indeed, you could argue that if you had mutations that gave low resistance to a drug and were superinfected with a virus containing mutations that augmented this mutation you could get drug resistance where it wasn't seen before.

However, what really is the risk? It's hard to quantify as the numbers of actual superinfections remains low - and often come from drug users or people who frequently have unprotected sex and are at multiple risks. What chance therefore of being superinfected and the two viruses conspiring to create a virus that is now resistant to something you were taking. Probably very low. However, there are documented cases of HIV superinfection and the relevance of this and frequency has to be determined. Only then can we quantify the risk to people getting multidrug resistance.

To answer Cliff's question, if you get superinfected with another virus does that mean you will die in 6 months. Probably not. Let's be clear about something. HIV mutates every day in millions of people. If it could come up with a combination that killed all people rapidly I believe it would have done so by now. Viruses produced from superinfection might be bad for a particular person based on their immune response to that HIV but it doesn't translate that this virus is a rapid killer.

I hope that clears up a few myths..

Rich

Hey Rich,

Don't know you, but thank you for bringing a voice of reason to this subject.   When I started it my aim wasn't to panic anyone or convince anyone to have unprotected sex.  

I think you and several others have contributed greatly to the overall understanding for me and many others.  

Also, for those willing to share personal history so honestly I greatly appreciate your views.   I'd like to ask those few who have been judgemental or critical what their motivations are?   What's that saying?   Get off your cross, someone could use the wood.    You're only cutting off your own foot and won't learn anything.   How does it benefit you to continue to belittle and judge someone else?    Furthermore, those types of comments only prevent others from stepping up and sharing honestly and candidly!

This subject is one important to a lot of people.   And, frankly due to the lack of thorough scientific studies I'd like to hear personal stories as well.   Now, I wonder if anyone will be willing to share at all.

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #169 on: February 14, 2007, 04:50:28 PM »
Yeah I mean, I have NEVER come across a gay guy who uses condoms for oral sex.  Honestly, I'm not sure they even exist.   :D  The chances of getting HIV from oral sex is extremely small in itself, the chances of superinfection would be absolutely miniscule.  If you worried about the theoretical risk for everything then you honestly would never do anything.  Seriously, I really don't believe it's even an issue.

Exactly, I'd worry about the risk of super infection from oral sex they way I worry about the risk of getting hit by a meteorite.

They're both risks... but not risks that are going to stop me from living my life in anyway.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #170 on: February 14, 2007, 05:00:26 PM »
I liked your analogy Benj.   That sums up how I feel about it pretty well ; )

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline dtwpuck

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  • дано мне тело, что мне делать с ним?
Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #171 on: February 14, 2007, 06:16:26 PM »
Yeah I mean, I have NEVER come across a gay guy who uses condoms for oral sex.  Honestly, I'm not sure they even exist.   :D  The chances of getting HIV from oral sex is extremely small in itself, the chances of superinfection would be absolutely miniscule.  If you worried about the theoretical risk for everything then you honestly would never do anything.  Seriously, I really don't believe it's even an issue.

Ohh i did once.  He wanted to wear a condom while I sucked on it. 
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline lydgate

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #172 on: February 14, 2007, 06:44:47 PM »
Ohh i did once.  He wanted to wear a condom while I sucked on it. 

Was he poz and you were neg? Was he trying to protect you from any cooties he had? Or were you poz and he was neg/unknown status?

The irrationality of this is something I've been boggled by for ages. I can just about understand the guy sucking to want the guy who's getting sucked to have a condom on -- so that there's no exposure to pre-cum and cum (for the blowjob-giver). But the other way around -- when the guy getting sucked wants to suit up because he's afraid of the fellator's saliva -- just shows how often irrational fear trumps transmission lessons.

Oh well. I've politely declined when this situation came up (so to speak) once.
Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #173 on: February 14, 2007, 07:09:02 PM »
well, i was poz.... he was neg... kind of off putting really.  it was one of those situations which reinforced for me that playing with negative guys was pretty much a big waste of time.   
Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #174 on: February 14, 2007, 09:13:01 PM »
You aren't going to get HIV from oral sex...so lets stop that right here.

I don't want to get into the debate about 3 years being a window for superinfection, because there isn't enough data yet to suggest that's true. I believe that superinfection occurs, but to what level I do not know. I don't buy the argument that an HIV strain remains dormant for 3 years during an infection to rear it's head and take over. It's not the simplest explanation for the data. The magnitude of superinfection is under debate but it is probably low and you could think of several reasons for that.. a few spring to mind. However, unprotected sex puts someone at risk for other STDs and that is something that is going to complicate an HIV infection for no reason.

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline sdcabincrew74

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #175 on: February 14, 2007, 10:43:59 PM »
typically... a single viral strain become dominant... and that is most often the wild type...  So, me having the wild type with no resistance (but a couple mutations) having sex with someone who does have resistant virus is not likely to transmit that resistance to me.  hence, very little worrying over this issue for me. 

My theory on this is that those who have become 'superinfected' have been extreme drug users/bingers and were repeatedly exposed to multiple strains in a very immune weakened condition, which may have let those other strains 'gain hold'.

I believe that somebody who is relatively healthy has no worry about reinfection or superifection due to natural body mechanics. 

Of course, that 'theory' presents a scenario of only having limited partners in good health, which is what I do....or at least hope to do again someday. 

Behavior such as extreme drugging (weakinging the immune system) and whoring (fucking tons of guys) could just get you there.. maybe.

But even that seems such a remote and far-fetched scenario that it just seem ridiculous to worry about.

I will be willing to test this theory with several members here to be sure... contact me via pm.  It's all for 'science' after all.   

Hey, I'm a giver.



Totally onboard with ya on this one.  I got my mutation or "super infection" the sustiva class does not work for me, BEFORE i started meds!  Since starting meds no OTHER strains and guess what, I am still a little on the slutty side and guess what I typically only sleep with POZ dudes and I like to give and get bareback!!!  Do we discuss mutations or meds or shit, no.  Here is my theory, the WORST thing in the world that can happen to me as a result of unprotected sex (which we ALL admit feels MUCH better) has already happened.  So, whatever will be, will be!  I still believe that once stable and on meds with a healthy immune system the chance of reinfection with a different strain is simply not a PROVEN statistical FACT! 
The difference between an overnight and a layover is luck!

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2007, 11:21:49 PM »
I agree that the chances of superinfection are lower on meds. However, the British Government said that transmission of BSE to humans was not possible once because there was no data to suggest that it occurred. There is now, and 175 people had to die to prove it. I guess it comes to personal choice and belief. The similarity to the BSE crisis is that in that case and in this there is a danger that it could happen. How you deal with that danger is up to the individual. Me, I ate beef. Moooo

R
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 11:23:28 PM by HIVworker »
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Mike89406

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #177 on: February 15, 2007, 12:45:38 AM »
Forgive me if I repeat anyone else's thunder but my understanding of this supposed superinfection is that it was the virus passed from someone that has been on HAART and maybe resistant to most classes thats why its hard to treat.

The old HIV support group i was a part of I'm Maryland beleives its not so much a  superinfection but moreless a highly resistant strain of HIV that had been mutated by the person in NYC who had been on Crystal and slept with hundreds of men without condoms   

Offline keyite

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #178 on: February 15, 2007, 05:57:51 AM »
You aren't going to get HIV from oral sex...so lets stop that right here.

I'm SO tired of seeing this absolute dismissal of oral sex as a transmission route. It is the ONLY viable transmission route in my case and I have come across enough guys in a similar situation to know I'm not alone.

I realise the assumption often will be that I'm somehow in denial about unprotected anal sex. I'm not. I have barebacked in the past, but it is sufficiently long ago, and with enough negative HIV tests in between, that I know it is not the transmission route in my case.

Do I think oral sex is low risk? Absolutely - I was simply very unlucky. And the small risk that there is associated with oral sex is entirely on the part of the person giving the blowjob. Am I now using condoms for oral sex? No, I never have and I'd still rather politely decline altogether.

Low risk, yes - no risk, no.

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Superinfection! Is it real and what causes it?
« Reply #179 on: February 15, 2007, 07:13:52 PM »
I am guilty of poor posting, so let me put what I stated about oral sex again.

You are not going to get HIV superinfection from oral sex.

Meaning the probability of getting HIV from oral sex is low. The probability of superinfection is also low. The cumulative probability of both events is so low it isn't worth thinking of.

I didn't want to type out the above qualification, but it appears I had to anyhow.

Apologies for not being clear in the first place,

Rich
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

 


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