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Author Topic: Is health care a right?  (Read 95775 times)

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Offline Lisa

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #150 on: February 01, 2007, 02:30:32 AM »
Lockheed...poo    Haliburton, now that's the one! :-X
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
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Offline joemutt

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2007, 02:31:14 AM »
In my opinion, very humble at that, healthcare is an inalienable human right.

Offline newt

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #152 on: February 01, 2007, 03:25:17 AM »
I find it odd, living in a country which set up its socialised health system with a loan from the US ( :)) after WWII, where, after the Queen, the NHS is our most cherished institution (and biggest employer), that the US has people in need of lifesaving medicine on waiting lists for the drugs.  Re: "personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag", we live as long, if not a bit longer, in the UK compared to the US for half the per head expenditure on healthcare.  I do not say everything is perfect, you can't get an MRI at the drop of a hat, the chairs ain't always comfy, clinics can be a bit shabby etc, but as far as essential medical interventions go, I wouldn't be anywhere else.  Esp. for HIV. Even the most hardline conservative politicians say "if you want to get elected, don't fuck with the NHS".

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Offline Cliff

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #153 on: February 01, 2007, 05:26:58 AM »
This debate ends up being more about national pride than health care.

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #154 on: February 01, 2007, 05:55:24 AM »
Quote from: xtremepms
I am not sure how a rape victim is to be blamed for being raped, please enlighten me.

Wrong place, wrong time.

So my 67 year old aunt, who was raped repeatedly by a man who broke into her house and terrorized her for several hours, was responsible because she was in the wrong place (her home) at the wrong time (a weekday evening)?

Please try to explain the ethical, dare I even say moral, basis of your opinion. 

Boo
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Offline wellington

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #155 on: February 01, 2007, 06:25:48 AM »
I find threads like this interesting, no so much for the conclusions they attempt to reach in debate but for their illustration of how murky and deep the water often is. Life's not always cake and I'd still not want to give up my Canadian healthcare system, flawed in some respects as it is. Is anything ever perfect?

And on the topic of rape, no one ever asks to be raped. It's violent. It's criminal. if you make the judgement that someone has put themselves in harms way, then it behooves you, as a good citizen, to help protect their rights and liberties, as you would expect anyone to do for you. if that is not what you'd expect from others, it's time to go live by yourself on an island somewhere and check-out of society. Social obligation, and all that ;}

Offline Razorbill

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #156 on: February 01, 2007, 06:34:30 AM »
Personally, I prefer a mixed approach.  Although competition and the marketplace have over accelerated costs, it has produced a system that is excellent for those covered. i favor the continuance of this system of employer based healthcare.  Certainly is one good reason to work hard and get a good job.  However the poor and disabled can't be left hanging.  There needs to be a comprehensive system of care for those who truly can't care for themselves, especially kids.  But if your asking me to get in line with everybody else for healthcare, like one big happy human family, I'll pass.  Nothing socialized or totally government run will amount to a cup of warm spit in my opinion.  Mediocrity isn't good enough for me.  Unfortunately it may be all there is for others.  I hope that can be improved.  The American model affords people ownership and pride in their own self-reliance.  I like it.

Offline dtwpuck

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #157 on: February 01, 2007, 06:38:51 AM »
I would write a dissertation of my own... but everything that needs to be said has been done so by Libvet, and more succintly than I would have been able to.  Nice job.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Offline poet

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #158 on: February 01, 2007, 06:50:33 AM »
I guess that I am the only person in the forums from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts which, as I thought people knew by now, has voted to require health insurance of every resident by July 2007.  Yes, that compulsory thing again from another thread. :)  The way it is working so far is that the Connector, the agency created to sort things for residents, first enrolled those making at or under 100% of the Federal poverty level, meaning that they qualify here for MassHealth a/k/a Medicaid.  Starting 1 January 2007, enrollment began for those making above 100% but at or under 300% of the Federal poverty level.  Companies which insure under a certain percentage of employees will be paying (I think it's) $295.00/employee.  

Problems have, of course, started to leak out.  First the premiums which our former govenor assumed would be around $200 something came in at $380.00/month for someone earning at the 300% level.  The monthly premiums, by design, are sliding scale based on actual income.  Politicians are screaming that something has to be done, that the premiums are too high for people to buy insurance.  So, having allowed the concept to proceed by telling insurance companies the minimum coverage allowed, the this and the that which makes a policy, lawmakers are now thinking that they will have to, as with car insurance here, determine the premiums allowed instead of the coverage and see what insurance companies come up with.  

More details.  The Connector works with the four insurance companies which have stepped up to the plate and directs residents to them, hopefully sorting out the pluses and minuses of each with each resident.  This has nothing to do with HDAP, which is the MA version of ADAP.  

So I would keep an eye on the Commonwealth, given its size, versus California which is also about to step into universal health insurance/healthcare, because if we continue to have problems, you know that things will be worse elsewhere.  Yes, this could work with the President's proposal since the deduction allowed would be for MA premiums.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #159 on: February 01, 2007, 06:57:46 AM »
philly267, I believe you are off a few million on your estimated UK populations. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pope0806.pdf

Offline bocker3

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #160 on: February 01, 2007, 07:14:29 AM »
I enjoy debates like this.  It makes me think and rethink my thoughts, positions and understand of the topic.  What I do NOT like is when other debaters stop debating and start attacking others because they don't like their opinions.  Feel free to "attack" a line of reasoning, but let's leave the personalities out of it. 
I mean -- really -- debate is healthy and attacking someone personally is NOT going to make them turn a bit more introspective -- it's just going to make them dig in their heels. 
If you ask me -- this sort of behavior is what is causing the stagnation in our political process.  No one, but no one is willing to say that maybe the "other side" has a good point.

Mike
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Offline poet

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #161 on: February 01, 2007, 07:43:19 AM »
I enjoy debates like this.  It makes me think and rethink my thoughts, positions and understand of the topic.  What I do NOT like is when other debaters stop debating and start attacking others because they don't like their opinions.  Feel free to "attack" a line of reasoning, but let's leave the personalities out of it. 
I mean -- really -- debate is healthy and attacking someone personally is NOT going to make them turn a bit more introspective -- it's just going to make them dig in their heels. 
If you ask me -- this sort of behavior is what is causing the stagnation in our political process.  No one, but no one is willing to say that maybe the "other side" has a good point.

Mike


I support Mike on this totally and have taken the liberty, before I got here and read his post, to post the same thing in the ADAP/compulsory work/volunteer thread.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #162 on: February 01, 2007, 08:05:19 AM »
I was just thinking through this thread while in the shower (I do my best thinking in the shower).

Universal Health Care – funded by the gov’t is a worthy goal, but is fraught with unintended consequences.  For example:

Where does a lot of the money go that feeds the “administrative costs” of insurance companies?  To pay the salaries of office workers, analysts, phone reps, etc.  These people will find themselves unemployed.  So they may have health insurance, but may end up with no place to live or food to eat.

The gov’t is going to require a consolidation of health care facilities in order to get a cost savings.  Many, many more people out of work.

As our taxes are raised to meet this cost, there is going to a period of time where consumers will stop consuming – likely causing other business to lay workers off.  Now some of this may be offset, by the savings in healthcare expenses, but business being business, I wouldn’t count on altruism here.

Now, this is not meant to argue against the goal, but it is meant to have proponents of a wholesale switch to gov’t funded care realize it would come at an enormous cost – perhaps only a temporary one, but a real one.  A switch to government funded healthcare is not the panacea it may seem to be on its face.

The US will not be able to jump into this model – it will have to evolve over time.  Perhaps the Massachusetts model is a good one to watch as it utilizes the current infrastructure.  Over time, we can move in another direction if it makes sense. This will lessen some of these other consequences.

Also, why are we all only taking a US view??  Doesn’t the whole world have a “basic human right to health care”?  Perhaps we should shooting for that too – after all we are, by far, the richest nation on earth.  This last point is just meant to show that we can’t solve all problems in a big jump.  We certainly should be working toward it, but it will unfortunately need to be done in steps - likely baby steps.

I’m off to work, my employer does require effort from me in order to receive my insurance  ::) – I’ll look forward to hearing comments on these thoughts when I get home tonite.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #163 on: February 01, 2007, 08:57:09 AM »
Oh yeah – one more “unintended consequence” of a wholesale switch to gov’t funded Universal Health Care.  All of the folks who expressed concern in another thread around mandatory names reporting for HIV; if the gov’t is paying, they are going to know what we all have.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #164 on: February 01, 2007, 09:46:11 AM »
HEY! LISTEN UP!

Again what started out as a serious subject has picked up a number of putdowns in rapid time. You guys know which ones of you have veered off from expressing opinions to sniping back and forth. COOL IT! NOW!

Having someone make a snotty remark to you doesn't give you license to respond in kind. If you can't just let it go then report it to us moderators.

Otherwise as we used to say way back when, "you're cruisin' for a bruisin.'"

This thread has grown very quickly since it was started only yesterday, which is an indication about strongly people feel about the issue. There's nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary. Just keep it civilized, please.

Andy Velez

Offline squareman

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #165 on: February 01, 2007, 10:15:46 AM »
Mmm just thought I would put some European input here. Living in Belgium we have socialized healthcare.
Basically the system is similar to the german, austrian or scandinavian ones.

There seems to be a misunderstanding that socialized health care means waiting lists etc... etc... This is not at all the case the almost the entirety of the healthcare market is private (doctors, hospitals...). So supply and demand are in a good balance.

When you get treatment in a hospital or by a doctor you get paid back (very quickly usually within a couple of days) about 90% of your expenses. You can privately insure yourself to get the rest covered or if you want some more luxury if your are in hospital. When you buy medication abouth the same amount is immediately deducted from the counterprice. Live saving meds (for diabetics or hiv etc...) is reimbursed fully.

How does the government pay for that? The only thing that happens is that the government takes 13.7% of everyones gross wage to fund amongst others this system. Everyone is covered. Every single citizen.

And that is because generally european society does view healthcare as a right. And you can get private insurances to get additional luxurys, which many people do take.

It is not an easy system and the government is often finding ways to make sure the medical budget does not spin out of control. (Ofcourse every patient wants the newest medication or technology to be treated and those are always the most expensive ones). However generally government is able to keep that budget in check by making it clearer to people which hospitals are more affordable and by guaranteing a check on the quality of those hospitals. (and believe me the most expensive ones are not the ones giving the best treatment). Making people pay a small part should still incentivize them not to overuse the system.

While I am not a socialist I would never want to do away with such a system. There are other parts of our social system I would change dramatically but not the healthcare system because it works and it is essential to be able to live as a dignified human being. On new years day people generally which each other a happy newyear and good health. So I think healthcare is extremely important.

I am 100% sure the richest country on earth is perfectly able to set up a similar system and pay for it but ofcourse it all depends on what the people in that country want (and whom they elect). I will not judge the system you currently have but I do not understand the argument of some people that you would not be able to afford such a system or that it would cause unemployment or low growth (the scandinavian countries have the highest growth and the most extensive social security system in europe).

It is just a matter of principle. Do the majority of people want such a system. Not do the majority of people think such a system is affordable, which is what you see many people opposed to such a system trying to argue. If you want it, you can have it, there's enough proof of that.

Offline squareman

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #166 on: February 01, 2007, 10:25:20 AM »

Also, why are we all only taking a US view??  Doesn’t the whole world have a “basic human right to health care”?  Perhaps we should shooting for that too – after all we are, by far, the richest nation on earth.  This last point is just meant to show that we can’t solve all problems in a big jump.  We certainly should be working toward it, but it will unfortunately need to be done in steps - likely baby steps.


On another note. I agree evolve is better than revolutionize. And indeed universal health care worldwide would be fantastic but it might be best to start on your own turf. The US is the richest nation on earth (and probably will be for some time to come) but the wealth is as unevenly spread as in many 3rd world countries which is also another obstacle to achieving universal health care...

Offline libvet

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #167 on: February 01, 2007, 10:30:23 AM »
I was just thinking through this thread while in the shower (I do my best thinking in the shower).

Universal Health Care – funded by the gov’t is a worthy goal, but is fraught with unintended consequences. 


Of course it would.   I wouldn't be foolish enough to think it wouldn't.  But that is nature of progress.

I rather imagine the wagon makers, tack makers, and farriers felt the same way when Ford opened his factories to mass produce "horseless carriages".

I think a substantial portion of the people displaced by a change in how health care is provided would easily be absorbed into working in the new system. 

I suspect what we would see would be a more lateral move for some into the necessary expansion of the framework needed to provide those services.  Other jobs would be created by the need to provide health care to an additional 45 million people entering the health care system for the first time.

Hell, even my own job might be at risk, but I certainly have the skills to go out and find another job and this time I wouldn't have to do so while wondering if I am going to have to go without meds for a considerable length of time.

Change is certainly not going to be totally painless, I'll grant you.  But there are a couple of things I will not weep over:

1) The loss of the enormous salaries and perks of executives in health insurance companies.

2) The loss of jobs in the field of medical collections and collection agencies.  Having had to deal with them has certainly be a nightmare for me at one point.  When I found out my insurance wouldn't cover my blood work that was inadvertantly sent to the wrong lab, I got a huge bill and it was a few months before I figured out that the insurance would not pay.  I called the medical billing company and offered to pay the bulk of the bill sans 50 dollars which I promised to pay in two weeks on my next payday.  The check cleared and three days later I got a letter from a collection agency demanding payment of the 50 dollars.

Change has consequences, but it seems to me that the benefits will far outweigh the consequences, especially as more and more of our population moves into retirement in the next couple of decades.

Offline Ann

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #168 on: February 01, 2007, 10:46:06 AM »
As a person who has lived under the American health care system and the UK health care system, I have to say the NHS is far superior to anything the US has to offer. The NHS is not without its problems, but it has, without doubt, far fewer problems than what passes for health care in the US.

I'm no economist, but I would much rather fork out more money in taxes than I would hand that same money to the fat cats at the top of the health insurance companies.

What I don't get is how anyone can not see that benefits to a society as a whole results in better living conditions for each individual in that society. Universal access to decent education results in lower crime rates and better health of the citizens. Universal access to health care results in happier, healthier and more productive citizens. It's ultimately a win-win situation for society as a whole.

I've seen the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" crop up in this thread several times. Is not universal access to health care included in the word "life"? Life depends on adequate health care.

Yes, I believe health care is a right.

Ann
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #169 on: February 01, 2007, 10:57:21 AM »
Thank you, Ann !!  I mean, good grief...that seems like such a no-brainer to me, too.  It almost seems to me that things like healthcare and education should be givens and not even a part of the usual ''should we or shouldn't we'' discussions- at least for basic educatioin and basic healthcare.  A population that is generally healthy in mind and body...isn't that the very least that we should be expecting of and for ourselves?  And you hit it right on the head in your post about how a healthy population results in a happier and more productive population.  We hear all the time about employers trying to force exercise programs for their employees or even refusing to hire smokers into their work force out of the desire to cut medical costs and because they see a healthier work force as more productive...yet somehow people aren't connecting the dots about how access to basic healthcare could have the same effect.  It's boggling to me.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #170 on: February 01, 2007, 10:57:31 AM »
What I always tire of hearing is "America will never accept socialised medicine ." Recent polling indicates 70% of Americans want universal health care. Opponents always throw up the socialised medicine smoke screen to cloud the issue. Serious proponents realize that it must be a combination of public and private collaboration for universal care to work. I would recommend any forum member who is interested peruse Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon's website for a well thought out health care plan. He unveiled it in the Senate last week to little or no press attention. He brings into focus all of the issues raised here and how they could be addressed. This is no pie-in-the-sky attention getting devise...it is a well researched, thoughtful plan to finally cover ALL Americans like any other civilised nation.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #171 on: February 01, 2007, 11:01:29 AM »
You mean this?


http://wyden.senate.gov/


Auntie Doxie, I think I read that you wanted me to help you with that link somewhere on here.  Was it also in the Activism Forum, too?  Lisa's thread about the March on Washington?  (Shameless plug for the Activism Forum masked as a question)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #172 on: February 01, 2007, 11:05:04 AM »
I find it odd, living in a country which set up its socialised health system with a loan from the US ( :)) after WWII, where, after the Queen, the NHS is our most cherished institution (and biggest employer), that the US has people in need of lifesaving medicine on waiting lists for the drugs.  Re: "personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag", we live as long, if not a bit longer, in the UK compared to the US for half the per head expenditure on healthcare.  I do not say everything is perfect, you can't get an MRI at the drop of a hat, the chairs ain't always comfy, clinics can be a bit shabby etc, but as far as essential medical interventions go, I wouldn't be anywhere else.  Esp. for HIV. Even the most hardline conservative politicians say "if you want to get elected, don't fuck with the NHS".

- matt

Now playing: Radio 4, Today programme



Hey Newt,

You single?   ; )

Wait, forgive me for my lack of historical knowledge.   I had never heard that was how the NHS got started.    Hmm, well anyone in the UK or Canada up for a sham wedding?    


Mike,  trust me, anyone who's ever worked for a health insurance company will be grateful to be out of that job speaking from personal experience.   It took me a while to get my personal sanity and my soul back, but a las I feel redeemed.

Furthermore, your arguement that insuarance companies will flop and all the people will be out of work.   So!    I mean what about Ford Motor Co. laying off people left and right and closing factories.   I'm sure there are countless  examples of other failed industries.


There seems to be some fear of a universal healthcare system that correlates to an irrational fear over losing our "freedom"     Does anyone else know what I mean?  
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #173 on: February 01, 2007, 11:05:55 AM »
You mean this?


http://wyden.senate.gov/


Auntie Doxie, I think I read that you wanted me to help you with that link somewhere on here.  Was it also in the Activism Forum, too?  Lisa's thread about the March on Washington?  (Shameless plug for the Activism Forum masked as a question)


You da man baby...you da man! Plus Sam's Godfather. ;)

Offline jack

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #174 on: February 01, 2007, 11:16:57 AM »
you say Government should pay for it? You mean taxpayers should pay for it. Government has no way to produce money other than to take it through taxation or print it.  Printing is also a tax because it is inflation,and devalues  every dollar you own. Whatever services the govt provides,citizens end up paying for one way or the other. Even those who think they are getting something for nothing are really losing because of inflation.
The only way any kind of universal health care is gonna work is if everyone is paying something. we have already seen in our present system how prices escalate without the consumer making the purchasing decisions like he does in every other sector of the economy,now if the guvment gets involved we will all have health services but will those services be the same quality as today? I doubt it. We have all seen how government bureaucracies operate and it is the exact opposite of efficient,no matter which party is running things. The government,unlike the private sector has no way to get rid of the dead wood and inefficiencies and taxpayers can not sell the stock like a shareholder can.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 11:23:18 AM by jack »

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #175 on: February 01, 2007, 11:23:47 AM »
Yes, I mean taxpayers should pay for it.  Fundamental healthcare and education for our U.S. population ...yes, I think that should be a shared expense of the population because I think it serves the greater public interest to do so.  The infortunate thing is that, even though many of are agreed that there shouldn't have to be any increase in taxes to do this- just a better allocation of the funds already received, between that happening and the snowflake in Hell...

I'd bet on the snowflake.
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Offline poet

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #176 on: February 01, 2007, 11:26:28 AM »
Based on what we have read in our two recent threads, I see two issues: 1) the cost of supporting universal healthcare in the U.S. (which Ann, Squareman and others under national health can help us realise); 2) what we would accept as 'universal healthcare,' what standards must a hospital, medical office and such meet?  If we think about what is a 'school,' in, say NYC, a private versus a public school, or anywhere else, a public or private college, the sometimes all too clear differences between the education someone would get in one versus the other.  (I went to prep. school and a private college while my father taught in the public schools which I attended until the 3rd form.)  Let's think about all those parents who make housing moves based on the school system, how 'good' or 'bad' it is.  

So, as we watch Massachusetts try to deliver on what it is compulsory starting 1 July 2007, let's see, since we already have complaints about premium costs, what the acceptable, affordable 'universal' plans offer.  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #177 on: February 01, 2007, 11:31:52 AM »
As a person who has lived under the American health care system and the UK health care system, I have to say the NHS is far superior to anything the US has to offer. The NHS is not without its problems, but it has, without doubt, far fewer problems than what passes for health care in the US.

I'm no economist, but I would much rather fork out more money in taxes than I would hand that same money to the fat cats at the top of the health insurance companies.

What I don't get is how anyone can not see that benefits to a society as a whole results in better living conditions for each individual in that society. Universal access to decent education results in lower crime rates and better health of the citizens. Universal access to health care results in happier, healthier and more productive citizens. It's ultimately a win-win situation for society as a whole.

I've seen the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" crop up in this thread several times. Is not universal access to health care included in the word "life"? Life depends on adequate health care.

Yes, I believe health care is a right.

Ann


Hey Ann,

I think that was my lame attempt at equating health care with a right.

Ultimately, when you look at it we all are already paying for a universal health care system in the US.   It's a hap hazard mess of Medicaid, Medicare and various other dysfunctional systems loosely pieced together which allows many to fall through the cracks.

I don't know why it's so controversial to create a unified system for all.     Our tax dollars are already being used for these systems whether people like it or not.  Why not overhaul and streamline the system on a bigger scale?   If the private health insurance companies can't compete then perhaps they should fail.

Everyone who's against a universal system claims one of two things.   They will pay higher taxes and health care will be deminished.   Well, call me crazy, but if you didn't have to pay all those health insurance premiums that would offset a great deal of taxes and money for admistrative costs that insurance companies create.    And, so far alll of these people living in countries with universal healthcare seem to feel their system works and are overall happy with it.   How many Americans can say they feel our system is working?

Wesley

« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 11:35:43 AM by AustinWesley »
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #178 on: February 01, 2007, 11:40:18 AM »
philly267, I believe you are off a few million on your estimated UK populations. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pope0806.pdf

Uh, I mentioned a total EU population, not UK.  The population of the European Union is 456,953,258
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #179 on: February 01, 2007, 11:49:04 AM »
Quote from: jack link=topic=™#msg102361 date=1170346617
we have already seen in our present system how prices escalate without the consumer making the purchasing decisions like he does in every other sector of the economy,now if the guvment gets involved we will all have health services but will those services be the same quality as today? I doubt it. We have all seen how government bureaucracies operate and it is the exact opposite of efficient,no matter which party is running things. The government,unlike the private sector has no way to get rid of the dead wood and inefficiencies and taxpayers can not sell the stock like a shareholder can.


Uh, if the Glorious Free Market™ works so well in the health services sector why is the US so inefficient that we GROSSLY outspend Europeans as a proportion of GDP?  The bottom line is that we are wildly wasting our resources on the current system.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Ann

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #180 on: February 01, 2007, 11:51:45 AM »
I know I certainly didn't feel the American system was working when I lived under it - and it has only gotten worse in the sixteen years I've been across the pond.

When I was twenty, I worked in a geriatric nursing home as a nurse's aide. I was required to clock out during my half hour for lunch, so my weekly hours didn't go above 37.5 hours. If they had, my employer would have been required by law (at that time, may be different now) to provide a HI policy. I was working full time, for all intents and purposes, but did not have health coverage and did not earn enough to provide my own. I lived in constant fear of getting sick or injured.

This was during the early eighties - and where I lived (NE Ohio), I felt lucky to have a job at all. According to some, I suppose the high rate of unemployment was my own fault. ~sigh~

Ann
 
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Offline jack

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #181 on: February 01, 2007, 11:52:29 AM »
I agree that the current system is very inefficient but it is a hybrid system. It isnt pure free market or pure socialism. If insurance companies are taken out of the equation what happens to all the people who work for insurance companies? We might all have health care but our economy would collapse. That would be neat. Then the same people here who want government to pay for everything will be demanding government give them a job. The only way for this to work now is using something like Bush just brought up plus a fund,that everyone pays taxes into,that would be used to insure those who cant afford to pay and those who are insurable(us).
We need to introduce the consumer back into the he altcare market in some fashion. Its the only way to make it efficient. We must have some impetus to choose the lowest priced drug or doctor. There is none now,we just go to whatever Dr. our insurance company tells us to go to and buy whatever drug they tell us to buy. Its the same w ay the government would run it.
If we do some type of universal health care we cant allow pols to do the same thing they have done with SS and medicare.   Both are out of control and have no controls. That is fine in some fantasy land but doesnt work in the real world.

Offline poet

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #182 on: February 01, 2007, 11:56:17 AM »
But we are watching as pensions are either underfunded by corporations (until the stock market took off) or Medicare/Social Security are underfunded by the government.  I would agree that money gets thrown around (how do we spell NYC post 9/11) and savings could and would come from rethinking the systems, but I suspect that what someone might Google for us and post is that the tax rates which having been coming down because this, supposedly is what we 'need,' would reverse direction.  How much are Americans, trained like seals sometimes to bark at tax decreases, going to accept if we agree to the Iraq war without the customary tax increases to pay for it?  Win
Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems.  The last was published in December 2006.  He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Offline jack

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #183 on: February 01, 2007, 12:14:09 PM »
If we are gonna do government health care it needs to be a separate entity and separate tax. We cant do what we have done in everything else,there has to be a way to track it.
Companies cant do pensions anymore because it just doesnt work, its one of the reason US automakers are in such trouble(along with having no idea what the consumer wants). Only the government can afford pensions and thats because they can tax and inflate. They dont have shareholders they have to account to,they have us.
There should definitely be some type of government plan so people who are unable to be insured can pay into and get insurance.
Maybe its just gonna be a mess no matter which way we go. Here in Houston illegals and people without insurance use emergency rooms as their family doctor.  The county hospitals have something in the range of 70% invoices that are never paid. Thats one reason everything is so expensive in a hospital,only one in three people are paying.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #184 on: February 01, 2007, 12:33:05 PM »
Thank you, Ann !!  I mean, good grief...that seems like such a no-brainer to me, too.  It almost seems to me that things like healthcare and education should be givens and not even a part of the usual ''should we or shouldn't we'' discussions- at least for basic educatioin and basic healthcare.  A population that is generally healthy in mind and body...isn't that the very least that we should be expecting of and for ourselves?  And you hit it right on the head in your post about how a healthy population results in a happier and more productive population.  We hear all the time about employers trying to force exercise programs for their employees or even refusing to hire smokers into their work force out of the desire to cut medical costs and because they see a healthier work force as more productive...yet somehow people aren't connecting the dots about how access to basic healthcare could have the same effect.  It's boggling to me.

Thunter, you've brought up some other intersting points.   You know I'm not opposed to the exercise programs at work, but the reason is legit.   It's an attempt to cut costs which makes sense.   

The insurance companies use demographics in order to determine what to charge.   And, the old, fat, and people with HIV and cancer aren't good for profits.   

However, we have laws in this country which claim employers can't discriminate against the old fat people with HIV and cancer.  Yeah, we all know how well those work.

Anyway, my point is companies are actively seeking healthier persons to hire not just for their own benefits, but because of the demographic cost of insuring them.   Many companies in the US are flex funded or some call it self insured, but pay a fee to the insurance company to "administer" the benefits.   Most employees have no idea they are working for a self insured company.   In order to remain competitive with benefits packages for it's employees companies want to keep health benefit costs low, and that means not hiring people who are going to get thier rates jacked up.

My whole point is that with the growning number of seniors that we will have and many even returning to the work force, the present private system will ultimately get worse and worse and worse.   Costs will never go down and will continue to soar with the present private insurance system.

The already overtaxed and ailing medicare program is going to see more and more people signing up for benefits as the population ages.

How long do all of you think we can continue to keep this system semi balanced?
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline bocker3

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #185 on: February 01, 2007, 12:40:56 PM »
Mike,  trust me, anyone who's ever worked for a health insurance company will be grateful to be out of that job speaking from personal experience.   It took me a while to get my personal sanity and my soul back, but a las I feel redeemed.

Furthermore, your arguement that insuarance companies will flop and all the people will be out of work.   So!    I mean what about Ford Motor Co. laying off people left and right and closing factories.   I'm sure there are countless  examples of other failed industries.
 

So, first off -- I did work for an insurance company for a number of years (a NOT-For Profit one at that).  I provided laboratory services and then moved on to collecting data of health outcomes for various medical conditions -- to help insure money was spent on improving the lives of patients -- so I am proud of the work I did there.  I no longer work there it is true, but not because I got my "sanity" back -- it's because I make a better salary outside of healthcare.

I am not trying to argue against universal access -- I'm just pointing out that a wholesale move to a gov't funded system would cause a lot of pain.  This would not be about a failed industry, per se -- it would be about the gov't taking over the industry.

So, I'll repeat myself -- this is a very worthy goal, but one that can't be jumped into quickly, without causing a whole lot of pain to a whole lot of new (and some of the same) people.

Also, (from another post -- I can't figure out how to quote from more than 1 at a time), 70% of Americans may want Universal Health Care, but how many of those 70% are willing to pay more taxes for it?  It's easy for people on either side of an argument to throw out numbers that help their "side", but it's important to show additional angles.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #186 on: February 01, 2007, 12:44:53 PM »
So, first off -- I did work for an insurance company for a number of years (a NOT-For Profit one at that).  I provided laboratory services and then moved on to collecting data of health outcomes for various medical conditions -- to help insure money was spent on improving the lives of patients -- so I am proud of the work I did there.  I no longer work there it is true, but not because I got my "sanity" back -- it's because I make a better salary outside of healthcare.

I am not trying to argue against universal access -- I'm just pointing out that a wholesale move to a gov't funded system would cause a lot of pain.  This would not be about a failed industry, per se -- it would be about the gov't taking over the industry.

So, I'll repeat myself -- this is a very worthy goal, but one that can't be jumped into quickly, without causing a whole lot of pain to a whole lot of new (and some of the same) people.

Also, (from another post -- I can't figure out how to quote from more than 1 at a time), 70% of Americans may want Universal Health Care, but how many of those 70% are willing to pay more taxes for it?  It's easy for people on either side of an argument to throw out numbers that help their "side", but it's important to show additional angles.

Mike

I remember reading something rather humorous.

X-Y= A Big Stink

Where X= what we want from the government (which is everything in the world) and Y= what we're willing to pay for it (not much at all).

But I think fearless has pointed out that he doesn't pay all that much more in taxes than we do here in the US.  And if we had a government funded universal insurance plan, wouldn't that still allow for competition among health care provider?
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Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #187 on: February 01, 2007, 12:57:04 PM »
Hey Mike,

Well, I think there is a huge difference between the non profit and for profit industries.  I've worked for both.   

Ugh, both are riddled with problems, but I have to say this brings up why I left the industry.   I had more sleepless nights thinking about people that I'd been forced to decline services too.   I've always had a strong sense of what is ethically and morally right so for me it wasn't just a job when decisions I made were impacting lives.   If anyone has any question about  the motivation of the wonderful health insurance companies in this country just go work for one for 10 years.

HA, that just reminded me.   Isn't Michael Moore doing a new documentary on the health care system called Sicko???   I'd bet he be wrapping that one up just in time for the 2008 elections ; )

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #188 on: February 01, 2007, 01:00:30 PM »
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....we can't do this, we can't do that. So far we have two Republican Governors and one Democratic Senator offering concrete (and in one case implementing) health care proposals.  70% of Americans want health coverage for all, and I am sure they realize they will need to contribute to make it happen. Soaring health care costs restrict our ability to compete in the global economy and all economists verify that fact.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #189 on: February 01, 2007, 01:02:23 PM »
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....we can't do this, we can't do that.

And yet we can have the evil socialism of free, compulsory, universal education.

I don't get the cognitive disconnect that people who are against this have.  They've yet to tell me why universal healthcare is "socialist" but free education is not.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #190 on: February 01, 2007, 01:06:17 PM »
aupointillimite, where are you coming up with this free stuff? There is nothing FREE. 

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #191 on: February 01, 2007, 01:08:45 PM »
aupointillimite, where are you coming up with this free stuff? There is nothing FREE. 

Fine then... government-funded.

But then I'll put it to you that way... why is universal, government-funded healthcare socialist and unsupportable but universal, government-funded education not?
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #192 on: February 01, 2007, 01:14:25 PM »
Socialized medicine isn't free. Those people pay taxes for it, unless they are illegal immigrants.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #193 on: February 01, 2007, 01:28:04 PM »
Contrary to popular belief illegals do pay taxes...but that is a subject for another day. The right insists on using three words when discussing agendas. Gay, liberal or socialist or any combo of the three. Health care....socialist agenda....equal rights....gay, socialist agenda....decriminalize pot...liberal, gay, socialist agenda. Bloated Austrian Governor of California's plan for health care...REALLY COOL!!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #194 on: February 01, 2007, 01:29:06 PM »
Socialized medicine isn't free. Those people pay taxes for it, unless they are illegal immigrants.

Yes, taxes pay for universal health care.  I know.

But... why is that OK for education... but not for health care?

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #195 on: February 01, 2007, 01:33:37 PM »
Cause we can't have no child left behind!
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline bear60

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #196 on: February 01, 2007, 01:34:32 PM »
I wonder if its possible that the AMA lobby,  as well as the insurance market lobby,  has brainwashed us into thinking that universal health care is bad?????? ??? ??? :(
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #197 on: February 01, 2007, 01:36:48 PM »
I wonder if its possible that the AMA lobby,  as well as the insurance market lobby,  has brainwashed us into thinking that universal health care is bad?????? ??? ??? :(

It's actually what has happened, I think.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #198 on: February 01, 2007, 01:43:20 PM »
It's all fixable !


Just Tax The Stupid People !!


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Offline jack

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #199 on: February 01, 2007, 01:50:32 PM »
taxes do pay for education but most of our Politicians send their kids to private schools. Do you want the healthcare system run like the bureaucrats run our education system?

 


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