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Author Topic: Is health care a right?  (Read 95762 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline whizzer

  • Member
  • Posts: 363
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2007, 10:52:23 PM »
I don't begrudge our health care system making money.  Hell, I want them to be successful and make plenty of it, so they happily keep doctoring me..

I just think we need a system that provides universal access to basic medical care and medications.

I'm not sure how to get there, but I am sure of this:  Unless we can agree that such a goal is worthy, we're never going to try.

Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2007, 10:52:59 PM »
So in other words, the rape victim, the accident victim, etc. are sort of "asking for it?" because they are where the are at a particular time?
Wow.

Yep...it is true...think about it.

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2007, 10:53:48 PM »
And how did you get infected? Hung out with the wrong people perhaps?

That is what happend to me and it is MY responsibility and no one else is to blame.

All I have to say about you is what a prima donna!

Ad hominem means "you lose" in Latin.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline xtremepms

  • Member
  • Posts: 31
    • Cono
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #103 on: January 31, 2007, 10:54:00 PM »
I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff


So when I go to the grocery store to purchase food for my family and I get raped in the parking lot, it is my fault for shopping?  Or rather we should blame my children for being hungry?  
I have no problem with people who do not have formal education, as I am one of them...but lack of an education in no way excuses you from making a blanket statement like that.
I pray no one you love is ever raped.

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2007, 10:54:40 PM »
Jeff,

It's clear to me that you are just trying to antagonize people.   Why don't you just leave since you haven't contributed anything rational to this debate?

Please!

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2007, 10:55:41 PM »
Ad hominem means "you lose" in Latin.

I love when you say that...I mean every time you say that.

I guess the debate is over since the Queen of All has spoken.

Jeff


Offline whizzer

  • Member
  • Posts: 363
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2007, 10:56:54 PM »
Yes, let's put bizarre philosophies aside and get back on topic here.

Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #107 on: January 31, 2007, 10:58:36 PM »
Jeff,

It's clear to me that you are just trying to antagonize people.   Why don't you just leave since you haven't contributed anything rational to this debate?

Please!

Wesley

I have said what is on my mind, like you have...I am not going away for my opinions...and I guess now must be the time when you expect an apology for my opinions. Well, I am not going to apologize for how I feel.

We need to agree to disagree.
If other peoples opinions antagonize you, you need to get a grip.

Jeff

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #108 on: January 31, 2007, 10:58:52 PM »
I love when you say that...I mean every time you say that.

I guess the debate is over since the Queen of All has spoken.

Jeff



I've used the expression "ad hominem" on this website three times.

And this would be the second time I've used the expression "ad hominem means 'you lose' in Latin."

And yes, if you have to resort to insulting me to make your point... you lose.  Sorry.

But then again, what do I know?  I'm only extraordinarily attractive and went to William and Mary.   ::)
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline libvet

  • Member
  • Posts: 327
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2007, 10:59:08 PM »
Let me just chime in on this since I am a HUGE proponent of universal health care.

I'll start by saying it's not exactly a new idea for the United States.  The first major politician to propose health care as a right was a republican by the name of Teddy Roosevelt. 

As a person with HIV and a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make.  I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simple can't afford all the medicines they need.  People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain.  Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both.  I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them for HIV medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".

If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some shit hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications.  Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens? 

I don't buy that for one instance.  It's not a matter of being unable to do it.  It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.

We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.

We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.

We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.

We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care.

We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.

We rank 37th in health care performance, behind even Columbia, Chile, and Saudi Arabia.

Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.

We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.

We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.

Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.

Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders.  You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network,  skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul?  And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.

The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits.

When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, HIV), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage.  I've been there.  Most of us have at one time or another.  When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god!  I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication."   NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet.


The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system.

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2007, 10:59:22 PM »
I don't begrudge our health care system making money.  Hell, I want them to be successful and make plenty of it, so they happily keep doctoring me..

I just think we need a system that provides universal access to basic medical care and medications.

I'm not sure how to get there, but I am sure of this:  Unless we can agree that such a goal is worthy, we're never going to try.

I agree Whizzer.   I've never even suggested dismantling it.   I think universal health care is a lofty, but worthy goal.   I also see no reason why this universal system could not operate at a profit given the proper business model.

I would be interested to hear some like Warren Buffet and others weigh in on how they feel.   Especially after donating some 30 billion and change to charity.
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #111 on: January 31, 2007, 11:01:54 PM »
I've used the expression "ad hominem" on this website three times.

And this would be the second time I've used the expression "ad hominem means 'you lose' in Latin."

And yes, if you have to resort to insulting me to make your point... you lose.  Sorry.

But then again, what do I know?  I'm only extraordinarily attractive and went to William and Mary.   ::)

Yes, and it has become tiresome...the latin and the bragging about your school and NOW how "attractive" you are.

Congratulations, I am sure that the whole world is SO proud.

Now,
back to reality......

Offline AlanBama

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,578
  • 'class' of '87
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #112 on: January 31, 2007, 11:03:00 PM »
very well stated, libvet.   I agree with you 100%
"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Offline koi1

  • Member
  • Posts: 713
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #113 on: January 31, 2007, 11:07:07 PM »
Stop it with the personal attacks. It offends my delicate sensibilities. You mean outrageous comments have no place here? Oh good grief, but alas I agree there is a moron on line 31. LOL

diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 23,569
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #114 on: January 31, 2007, 11:12:20 PM »
Yeah, and he's reporting me for agreeing with the one statement that he made which was sensible!   ; )   Oh Lord, I'm so ashamed!

I'm going to have to report you for mentioning that again, Austin
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2007, 11:12:50 PM »
Let me just chime in on this since I am a HUGE proponent of universal health care.

I'll start by saying it's not exactly a new idea for the United States.  The first major politician to propose health care as a right was a republican by the name of Teddy Roosevelt. 

As a person with HIV and a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make.  I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simple can't afford all the medicines they need.  People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain.  Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both.  I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them for HIV medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".

If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some shit hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications.  Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens? 

I don't buy that for one instance.  It's not a matter of being unable to do it.  It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.

We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.

We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.

We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.

We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care.

We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.

We rank 37th in health care performance, behind even Columbia, Chile, and Saudi Arabia.

Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.

We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.

We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.

Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.

Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders.  You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network,  skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul?  And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.

The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits.

When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, HIV), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage.  I've been there.  Most of us have at one time or another.  When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god!  I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication."   NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet.


The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system.


Libvet,

You've done an excellent job of arguing the case for universal health care.   Having previously worked in the healthcare industry I couldn't agree more with you regarding the beuracracy and bloated mess that has been created.

I was so disgusted from my experience in that industry with all the greed and corruption.    It still sickens me.   But, hey a job is a job.  

The biggest opponent to any universal healthcare system are these rich, greedy and powerful mega corporations.    How anyone can sit back and believe they are going to continue to meet the needs in this nation when we have some 40 million plus uninsured is beyond me.

You've so many good points I am not sure where to start, but you've done a beautiful job of bringing this thread back on track and thanks.  Hopefully, you've helped open some minds.

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline whizzer

  • Member
  • Posts: 363
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2007, 11:13:34 PM »

 It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.



That is SO true.

So many are unable to empathize with the condition others are in.  We have examples on these very pages.

I too have those feelings of "there but by the grace of God go I".  I have them every day.  Do others?  Are there enough of us to bring about a change?

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 23,569
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2007, 11:15:14 PM »
No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?



Yes, how I dare I walk down a sidewalk minding my own business and get raped.  How silly of me to leave my house and go to work.  What in the world was I thinking?  Oh, right... gotta pimp for that health insurance.  My fault!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #118 on: January 31, 2007, 11:15:48 PM »
I'm going to have to report you for mentioning that again, Austin

Please do!   I want to go to the principal's office.

Do you think he'll spank me cause that could be HOT?
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,251
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2007, 11:18:03 PM »
Sorry if I am continuing a highjack, but...


Dear Jeff64:  I double-dog dare you to go through with 'reporting'  Wesley to the Moderators.  Nothing I have read to date on this forum by ANY other poster in ANY thread has offended me to the degree of your asinine comment (oh, hell...which one?  there are so many to choose from here) declaring a woman who has been raped to be at fault for it.  

DISCLOSURE:  I had much more to say on this one, but have found the reserve to edited prior to posting.


Incredibly thankful that I have been spared having to know you in person.  On behalf of one of my neighbor's daughters, how dare you?

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2007, 11:20:07 PM »
That is SO true.

So many are unable to empathize with the condition others are in.  We have examples on these very pages.

I too have those feelings of "there but by the grace of God go I".  I have them every day.  Do others?  Are there enough of us to bring about a change?

I think there are enough to bring about a change.   Especially with all the seniors (people who vote).   Just depends on how it's presented and you know how the conservative right wing love to scare the senior citizens.   

Now, I'm no fan of Hilary and haven't heard her plan, but somehow I don't see it doing much for any of us.   
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,358
  • 28 years positive, 56 years a pain in the butt
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2007, 11:21:58 PM »
Hey Libvet,

You did a much better job promoting universal health care than I did.

Wesley, I think it goes hand-in-hand with "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Or was that the spanking I was thinking of?  ;)

HUGS,

Mark
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 11:23:44 PM by aztecan »
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline northernguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2007, 11:22:12 PM »
I have never understood this American obsession with "taxes".  It's as if these "taxes" vanish into thin air with no benefit to anyone.  I see the benefits of my taxes when I go to the doctor, visit a hospital, ride our transit system etc.  

Perhaps because of the harsher climate, the Canadian mindset is quite different.  There's a greater emphasis on the collective good.  Let's face it, nobody becomes a success without the support of their community, in one way or another.
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2007, 11:27:41 PM »
Hey Libvet,

You did a much better job promoting universal health care than I did.

Wesley, I think it goes hand-in-hand with "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Or was that the spanking I was thinking of?  ;)

HUGS,

Mark


LOL, I was distracted.    What's that saying?   Crazy is as Crazy does!   

Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Longislander

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,486
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2007, 11:31:08 PM »
I agree our gov't spends much too much $$ on unecessary things. And I agree everyone needs health coverage. No not all health coverage is equal, either.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that's what the USA is, make it or break it, or just hang on. No one was ever promised a good life here.

I'm sure I am just as uneducated as Jeff. I have a great job, excellent retirement (God willing I make it another 12 years). A decision I made almost 19 years ago.

I have an aunt who works 3 p/t jobs. She buys her own health coverage thru a NYS program, 3 or 4 hundred/month. Guess what? She chose early on, to work for herself. It didn't pan out to the fortunes she was hoping for, but she wouldn't go get a regular job. No pension/retirement either.

My father (may he RIP) was a mechanic. He worked for dealerships when he left the service. New demo to drive all the time, health coverage, etc. He decided he didn't want to work for the man, and went into business for himself. No health insurance, and damn, not even enough $ to support himself in a decent lifestyle. But he was able to stay afloat and live out his life working for himself. When he got older, and sicker, he had to get insurance. When he died, we found out that he was paying over $900 bucks a month for H.I., and not even a good policy. 25 years ago, he met a great woman, and they lived together for 25 years til she passed. All that time it was my fathers decision not to marry her. It was so sensible, she made more $ and had so much more than him. She also had employer sponsored H.I. he could have been on all those years. but his pride (wtf?) kept him from doing it. He wouldn't even marry her on her death bed (as she requested) so he could inherit her house and everything, just to make things easier for him. Pride. He was forced out of the house within 6 months as her sister inherited the house.

These are decisions people make. No not everyone is fortunate enough to have several choices. If you want to work for yourself, start your own mom and pop place, that's great!! Go for it. But if it's a constant struggle, give up the dream, and find a better way.

I will state here that I do not agree that a rape victim is at fault.

I don't know but one Canadian, and we were chatting online last year at tax time. I was FLOORED by the amount of income tax he was paying.  I've yet to hear anyone chime in about what Canadians and others with Uni HC are paying for it in cash.

Perhaps they don't have as much expendable cash after taxes to indulge in the unhealthy recreational life choice we can here in the US, so their life expectancy is longer?!?! Perhaps it's just the colder weather. ;)

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the
system.

Just a few of my thoughts as I've read through this thread.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline libvet

  • Member
  • Posts: 327
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2007, 11:52:03 PM »

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the
system.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but that 40 million number is just people who NEVER get health insurance.  82 million non-elderly Americans go without health insurance during some portion of the year and you can bet they sweat it out hoping they don't get in an accident or get sick.

Another 80 million people are already on medicare or medicaid.

So we have 160 million people already dealing with LACK of health insurance or requiring public assistance for health care.

Then you have people who do have health care that just support the idea of universal health.

And you have the people who are in jobs like mine, in the health care field, where are profits are soaring, but when the cost of our health care premiums is pitted against what we get for a raise this year, we are actually bringing home LESS money.

And polls currently show that around 62 percent of Americans support universal health care.

That number will only increase as our health care costs continue to skyrocket.




Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2007, 11:52:24 PM »
Sorry if I am continuing a highjack, but...


Dear Jeff64:  I double-dog dare you to go through with 'reporting'  Wesley to the Moderators.  Nothing I have read to date on this forum by ANY other poster in ANY thread has offended me to the degree of your asinine comment (oh, hell...which one?  there are so many to choose from here) declaring a woman who has been raped to be at fault for it. 

DISCLOSURE:  I had much more to say on this one, but have found the reserve to edited prior to posting.


Incredibly thankful that I have been spared having to know you in person.  On behalf of one of my neighbor's daughters, how dare you?


[/quote

If you met me, you would like me.
I have my opinions, yes, but I am truly not heartless...honest.
I make the best cassoulet you have ever had...

For those I have offended with my opinions, I apologize,
For those who cannot tolerate opinions, I do not.

I would LOVE universal healthcare...unfortunately it will never work in the US...I would love to get free healthcare! Who wouldn't!

Jeff

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2007, 11:53:06 PM »
I agree our gov't spends much too much $$ on unecessary things. And I agree everyone needs health coverage. No not all health coverage is equal, either.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that's what the USA is, make it or break it, or just hang on. No one was ever promised a good life here.

I'm sure I am just as uneducated as Jeff. I have a great job, excellent retirement (God willing I make it another 12 years). A decision I made almost 19 years ago.

I have an aunt who works 3 p/t jobs. She buys her own health coverage thru a NYS program, 3 or 4 hundred/month. Guess what? She chose early on, to work for herself. It didn't pan out to the fortunes she was hoping for, but she wouldn't go get a regular job. No pension/retirement either.

My father (may he RIP) was a mechanic. He worked for dealerships when he left the service. New demo to drive all the time, health coverage, etc. He decided he didn't want to work for the man, and went into business for himself. No health insurance, and damn, not even enough $ to support himself in a decent lifestyle. But he was able to stay afloat and live out his life working for himself. When he got older, and sicker, he had to get insurance. When he died, we found out that he was paying over $900 bucks a month for H.I., and not even a good policy. 25 years ago, he met a great woman, and they lived together for 25 years til she passed. All that time it was my fathers decision not to marry her. It was so sensible, she made more $ and had so much more than him. She also had employer sponsored H.I. he could have been on all those years. but his pride (wtf?) kept him from doing it. He wouldn't even marry her on her death bed (as she requested) so he could inherit her house and everything, just to make things easier for him. Pride. He was forced out of the house within 6 months as her sister inherited the house.

These are decisions people make. No not everyone is fortunate enough to have several choices. If you want to work for yourself, start your own mom and pop place, that's great!! Go for it. But if it's a constant struggle, give up the dream, and find a better way.

I will state here that I do not agree that a rape victim is at fault.

I don't know but one Canadian, and we were chatting online last year at tax time. I was FLOORED by the amount of income tax he was paying.  I've yet to hear anyone chime in about what Canadians and others with Uni HC are paying for it in cash.

Perhaps they don't have as much expendable cash after taxes to indulge in the unhealthy recreational life choice we can here in the US, so their life expectancy is longer?!?! Perhaps it's just the colder weather. ;)

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the
system.

Just a few of my thoughts as I've read through this thread.


Hey LongIslander,

You bring up a valid point.   Well actually several.

First, let me say one's level of formal education has nothing to do with actual intelligence.   Doctor's degrees don't impress me.   However, in no way could you be so unintelligent as Jeff.    

Actually, I was thinking it'd be great if we could get him to represent the conservative side of the debate and put him on FOX, CNN and the rest.   Boy, that would all but insure a universal healthcare system. ; )

I think you've brought some excellent material to the debate.   I don't think anyone is opposed to people who work hard.   Three in my family are self employed and I understand your thoughts on that.

With regard to the income tax level paid out by your Canadian friend.   Hmm, it'd be interest to find out what he makes and compare it to someone here in the US and see once we add in all the health insurance premiumns, copays, deductibles etc for a similar individual and see just what the difference actually is compared to overall cost of living and quality of life.

Thanks for the great input.   You've given me more to ponder yet.

Wesley
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2007, 11:54:57 PM »
Hey LongIslander,

You bring up a valid point.   Well actually several.

First, let me say one's level of formal education has nothing to do with actual intelligence.   Doctor's degrees don't impress me.   However, in no way could you be so unintelligent as Jeff.   

Actually, I was thinking it'd be great if we could get him to represent the conservative side of the debate and put him on FOX, CNN and the rest.   Boy, that would all but insure a universal healthcare system. ; )

I think you've brought some excellent material to the debate.   I don't think anyone is opposed to people who work hard.   Three in my family are self employed and I understand your thoughts on that.

With regard to the income tax level paid out by your Canadian friend.   Hmm, it'd be interest to find out what he makes and compare it to someone here in the US and see once we add in all the health insurance premiumns, copays, deductibles etc for a similar individual and see just what the difference actually is compared to overall cost of living and quality of life.

Thanks for the great input.   You've given me more to ponder yet.

Wesley

Can we please stop pointing out how much of an unintelligent person I am?

Jeff

Offline Lisa

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,240
  • Formerly known as sweetieweasel/Joined Nov. 2004
    • http://www.myspace.com/lisanowak58
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2007, 11:55:25 PM »
Brava Libvet.
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline Longislander

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  • Posts: 2,486
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2007, 12:07:33 AM »
Jeff,  I wasn't putting down your lack of education, I'm right there with you. Hope you didn't think otherwise.

I'm quite fortunate in the career path I ended up with. I pay $19 bi-weekly for H.I. (494/year), then my union reimburses me $150 of that at the end of the year.

I pay $12 co-pays for Dr visits. I call whenever and whomever is in the plan, and no referrals needed.

Generic script co-pays $5, others $30. AGain, at year end, my union will reimburse me up to $150 for Dr. Co-pays, and up to $150 for my script co-pays. I'm a lucky one, and I know it. Especially when I see a thread started by Lis ( i think it was hers) that her family is without HI all of a sudden.


The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline northernguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2007, 12:10:02 AM »
There's no question Canadians pay more in taxes that those in the USA.  But then again, nobody here is paying $900 a month for health insurance :o

Medical care aside, 32,800,000 people spread out over the 2nd largest country on earth will always be paying more in taxes than those in the USA.  Its the cost of delivering services to a small spread-out population.
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline Jeff64

  • Member
  • Posts: 255
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2007, 12:10:16 AM »
Jeff,  I wasn't putting down your lack of education, I'm right there with you. Hope you didn't think otherwise.

I'm quite fortunate in the career path I ended up with. I pay $19 bi-weekly for H.I. (494/year), then my union reimburses me $150 of that at the end of the year.

I pay $12 co-pays for Dr visits. I call whenever and whomever is in the plan, and no referrals needed.

Generic script co-pays $5, others $30. AGain, at year end, my union will reimburse me up to $150 for Dr. Co-pays, and up to $150 for my script co-pays. I'm a lucky one, and I know it. Especially when I see a thread started by Lis ( i think it was hers) that her family is without HI all of a sudden.


The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.

Lonislander...I wasn't replying to your post...all is good.

Jeff

Offline AustinWesley

  • Member
  • Posts: 815
    • HIV Discussion Group on Myspace!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2007, 12:16:21 AM »
Good Point Northern.   That's another factor when figuring out the overall equality or lack of.

Long Island, you are damn lucky to have a plan like you do.   I am paying something like close to $300 a month not including all the copays, deductibles and misc. bullshit.   

And I've got all the other bills to.   Just like so many of the others should anything go awry with that insurance I could face complete financial ruin.   

Everyone has to pay higher bills when all these people loosing health care go bankrupt.  : (
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2007, 12:17:44 AM »
There's no question Canadians pay more in taxes that those in the USA.  But then again, nobody here is paying $900 a month for health insurance :o

Medical care aside, 32,800,000 people spread out over the 2nd largest country on earth will always be paying more in taxes than those in the USA.  Its the cost of delivering services to a small spread-out population.

I, for one, would be perfectly willing to accept an increase in taxes to fund a universal health insurance plan in the US.

It's amazing how when this topic comes up, Americans start bitching, whining, pissing, and moaning about taxes... but did anyone make the "cha-ching" cash register sound every time a cruise missile flew into Iraq?  Never do I hear about how high taxes are when discussing American military prowess... when it comes to killing foreign civilians... it seems that we're willing to do that at any price... when it comes to insuring our poor... then it's too expensive.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Longislander

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,486
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2007, 12:22:18 AM »
Benj, I'm pretty sure you're not paying the amount of taxes we're talking about. When you do, get back to us.

I don't believe I ever said I was all for the $$ spent on the war, nor did I condone the space program $, or anything else you want to bring up that our Gov't is funding with our tax dollars.

In fact, I started my first reply saying so.

Take out half the $$ you make, and see if you can continue to hop around the country on trips, or even continue to afford to smoke or do occasional recreational drugs, and still eat.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline northernguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2007, 12:22:32 AM »
...The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.

Mortage payments are not tax deductible in Canada, it would be discriminatory against renters ;) Contributions to an RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) are tax deductible.  Property tax varies by municipality.

Apropos of nothing at all, I've always liked this cartoon:


[attachment deleted by admin]
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline David_CA

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  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #137 on: February 01, 2007, 12:24:18 AM »
We're extremely inefficient.  Why?  Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states.  That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus.  A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.


I definitely agree with the waste of resources of redundant administration.  I've never understood why we're supposed to be 'One Nation', but laws, regulations, and programs vary so much from state to state.  Maybe instead of the idea of socialized health care, some sort of effecient nationwide Medicaid program that is uniform would go over a bit better here.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Longislander

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,486
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #138 on: February 01, 2007, 12:24:32 AM »
lol, cute pic. I'm sure many on this site wouldn't mind that scenario at all ;) ;)
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
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  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #139 on: February 01, 2007, 12:25:34 AM »
Benj, I'm pretty sure you're not paying the amount of taxes we're talking about. When you do, get back to us.

I don't believe I ever said I was all for the $$ spent on the war, nor did I condone the space program $, or anything else you want to bring up that our Gov't is funding with our tax dollars.

In fact, I started my first reply saying so.

Take out half the $$ you make, and see if you can continue to hop around the country on trips, or even continue to afford to smoke or do occasional recreational drugs, and still eat.

Of course I don't pay the taxes you do.  I don't own property.

But I'm an American citizen, too.

My voice counts just as much as anyone else's... and the fact remains that it's pathetic that the richest country in the world allegedly "can't afford" to provide universal health care.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #140 on: February 01, 2007, 12:27:58 AM »
I definitely agree with the waste of resources of redundant administration.  I've never understood why we're supposed to be 'One Nation', but laws, regulations, and programs vary so much from state to state.  Maybe instead of the idea of socialized health care, some sort of effecient nationwide Medicaid program that is uniform would go over a bit better here.

David

Which is a single payer system, same as what Canada has or close to it.  That was my point.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #141 on: February 01, 2007, 12:32:39 AM »
Quote from: ademas
So in other words, the rape victim, the accident victim, etc. are sort of "asking for it?" because they are where the are at a particular time?
Wow.

Yep...it is true...think about it.

You're so right, Jeff,  I've always said if a woman is being raped why doesn't she just lie back and enjoy it?  It's her fault for having a vagina, anyway.

Boo
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #142 on: February 01, 2007, 12:33:49 AM »
Mortage payments are not tax deductible in Canada, it would be discriminatory against renters ;) Contributions to an RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) are tax deductible.  Property tax varies by municipality.

Apropos of nothing at all, I've always liked this cartoon:


You know I have enough damn deductions.   I've always felt that not allowing renters the same right is somewhat discriminatory; however, I would side that their is the incentive of owning and being productive because of that mortgage deduction.

I don't know what others are paying, but Texas is horrible for property taxes.  Absolutely, out of control.   I'm paying for golf courses at schools and God knows what all.   I fail to see how that qualifies as education.
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline Longislander

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #143 on: February 01, 2007, 12:36:34 AM »
Austin, education is a WHOLE 'NOTHER ball park, my friend. A whole new thread for that~ ;)
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline AustinWesley

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #144 on: February 01, 2007, 12:40:34 AM »
Don't even get me started on the ball parks! ;)   LOL.   Ok, clearly time for me to hit the hay.   Nite everyone.  It's been a fun and lively debate and I will look forward to seeing what has transpired by tomorrow and see if anyone has solved the problem. ;)
Diag. 3/06  Infected aprx. 2 mo. Prior
Date        CD4   %      VL
4/6/06     627    32    36,500     NO MEDS YET!
6/7/06     409    27    36,100
8/23/06   408    25     22,300
1/2/07     354    23     28,700
2/9/07     139    30     23,000  Hep A Vaccine same day???
2/21/07   274    26     18,500 
3/3/07    RX of Truvada/Sustiva Started.
4/5/07    321     27      Undectable 1st mo.  
5/16/07  383     28    Undectable 2nd mo.
8/10/07  422     32   UD <48 on new scale!

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #145 on: February 01, 2007, 12:48:06 AM »
Well, I for one learned a lot tonight.

I learned that if a woman is raped, it's her fault.

And I learned that people who pay more taxes should have more say in how the government spends the people's money (perhaps we could institute an "American Citizen Standard," "American Citizen Gold," and "American Citizen Platinum" program for people depending on how much money they make, so they can get more bang for their buck from the government) than what I think.

I also learned that I really need to find a nice Canadian to marry. 
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline fearless

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #146 on: February 01, 2007, 12:56:51 AM »
hey Longislander,

I won't give you exact numbers, and I'm in Aus, but we have a taxpayer funded health care system.

I pay 26.5% of my income in taxes. On top of this I pay an additional 1.5% Medicare levy, to fund our health care system.
As I am considered a 'high' income earner, I am also obliged to take out private patient hospital cover, or pay an additional levy of 1.0% of my income into Medicare. My private patient hospital cover costs me about $500 a year. For me, a visits to the doctor attract a co-pay of about $20 (some other docs it is $0), and for a script I have a co-pay of about $25/30.

We have no tax deductions for simply owning a house, nor do we pay land or property tax on our place of residence.

There is no such thing as 'free' health care. It is either paid for through taxes, the employer or the individual. And, while governments are usually considered wasteful and inefficient, one thing they don't like spending money on is health care. This means they are always trying to find ways to make savings - negotiating cheaper prices for drugs with US companies, and spending $ on prevention to keep people out of the system in the first place eg effective HIV campaigns rather than abstinence.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 01:09:55 AM by fearless »
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline Lisa

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #147 on: February 01, 2007, 12:57:23 AM »
I've personally always despised my vagina, but apparently no where near as much as others. ;D
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline Boo Radley

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    • Animal Rescue New Orleans
Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2007, 01:30:20 AM »
And I learned that people who pay more taxes should have more say in how the government spends the people's money (perhaps we could institute an "American Citizen Standard," "American Citizen Gold," and "American Citizen Platinum" program for people depending on how much money they make, so they can get more bang for their buck from the government) than what I think.

Silly child, that system has been in existence for years.  It's called Capitalism.  We're all just commodities, or, as our beloved Edina put it, "industry fodder."

Boo

P.S.  If there's a warmer part of Canada I'll move and attain citizenship, then adopt you.  Just as long as there's not too much snow...

String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Is health care a right?
« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2007, 01:35:31 AM »
The reason American taxes are so high:  MILITARY... nuf said

But hey, if we didn't spend so much money on the Pentagon we couldn't invade a country every 10 years looking for fictitious mushroom clouds

Priorities folks... gotta keep Lockheed Martin hummin' along
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

 


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