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Author Topic: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut  (Read 14711 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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I have been reading your website for some time now and I have been impressed by all the knowledgeable people here.

My exposure risk was protected vaginal sex with a lady (I am a guy) DURING which I got a cut on my knee due to scratching against the wall. There was some of my own blood on the cut, hence the cut was open and fresh. The blood remained on the cut and did not flow down my leg from the cut. After missionary position of sex for about 2 minutes, I wiped the condom with a tissue paper. Then she sat on my lap, and touched the outside of the condom to help me insert inside her vagina and we had sex in sitting position. The problem is that I noticed the bleeding cut on my knee only AFTER I ejaculated in the sitting position.

One more detail: Before sex, I had asked her to take an HIV test on the same day as my exposure and she had tested negative. Also, I have not had any ARS symptoms yet, even though 6 weeks have already passed since this incident.

My questions are as follows:
1) What is my HIV risk due to her touching her vaginal fluids on the outside of the condom (while helping me to insert) and then immediately within 1-2 seconds touching my cut on the knee? This is possible because of the sitting position, where her hands were on my legs/knees. The amount of fluids on the outside of the condom would have been minimal since I had wiped the condom with tissue paper before she touched the condom, but I guess there could have been some small amount of vaginal fluids on the condom’s outside because my wiping of the vaginal fluids from the condom may not have been  thorough. Also, those vaginal fluids would have been exposed to air for about 20-25 seconds because of change of position from missionary to sitting position. To be honest, her hands must have got some minimal amount of fluids from the condom, but I do not know whether she really touched the cut with the fluids.
2) What would be my HIV risk if hypothetically she was indeed within her window period (due to sky-high viral load during seroconversion)?
3) I read Jonathan's post about dendritic cells which need to be there for HIV to transmit. Are there any dendritic cells near the knee area? 
4) To be honest, I really have no idea whether the secretions on the condom were vaginal or cervical secretions. I read from the posts here that cervical secretions are much more risky than vaginal fluids. Would it be a risk for HIV if those fluids she touched before touching my cut were indeed cervical secretions? (Those fluids could have been cervical secretions due to the 2 minute protected vaginal sex, right?)
5) Medically speaking, would you recommend testing for this exposure (assuming she was HIV-positive)?

Please accept my sincere thanks.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2006, 05:18:40 PM »
Jimmy, it's good that you're being cautious about HIV, but I would say you are really concerned about a lot of "what ifs" here rather than any real risk.

What you are calling a "cut" is hardly likely to have been such as in an open wound in the circumstances you have described. HIV is not an easy virus to transmit. Given that we are talking about IF the lady in question is HIV+ and IF there were survical fluids which survived the wiping of the condom and IF they penetrated your "wound" and IF ... etc. 

Get my drift? This is a situation which was risky only in theory. in actuality I have nerver known transmission to occur through the kind of "cut" you are describing or any such circumstances. Theoretically something can happen. In reality it doesn't.

I don't see any need for testing nor for further concern.

As to your having your partner take an HIV test, a negative result is only reliable when taken 13 weeks after a risky incident. Frankly, I would have thought her within her rights to tell you to buzz off. Your HIV status is your responsibility and no one else's.

In this instance in any case I don't see any cause for concern.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 05:20:21 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2006, 05:35:20 PM »
Dear Andy, I really appreciate your reply to my concerns. I have read your extremely knowledgeable posts before, and I have value your opinion very highly. I understand from your reply that my risk is only theoretical. I just want to clarify that the cut was quite open and fresh (because it happened during the sex) and there was some of my own blood on the top of the cut, so it was like a bleeding cut. But the blood was not gushing out of there. And also, the blood was not flowing out from the cut i.e., the blood was just seated on top of the cut. Taking this into account, would my risk still remain theoretical? Thanks once again and my apologies in advance for asking again.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2006, 05:38:00 PM »
No problem about asking again. Bearing in mind what you have described further and what I replied earlier, I still don't see any cause for concern in relation to this incident. Really.

 
Andy Velez

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2006, 05:51:55 PM »
Thanks a lot Andy. You really helped me to understand my real risk clearly. Previously, I have read through a lot of material on the Internet, but every website seemed to provide inconclusive answers such as "there could have been low risk", "the risk is very minimal, but some risk still exists" etc..From your reply, I have been able to understand that the reality of my exposure with great clarity. And since the answer came from an extremely knowledgeable source like you, I feel very relaxed now. I have also read through many posts on this website and I understand now that once the fluids are outside the body, the real chances of HIV transmission become very low. From the lessons section of this site, I noted that every real-risk-related behaviour seems to be arising from transmission from inside one body to another without any exposure to air in a completely air-tight kind of setting. Please accept my sincere thanks once again.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2006, 06:04:04 PM »
You've got it right now. Glad you found our exchange to be helpful.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2006, 06:08:53 PM »
Thanks Andy. I would say our exchange was not only helpful, but EXTREMELY helpful to me because it helped me to get rid of an irrational fear that has been on my mind for quite some time now. Cheers! Jimmy.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2006, 12:55:34 PM »
I just have a few lingering questions. Is there any way to distinguish between vaginal fluids and cervical fluids? I ask because if it was just vaginal fluids, then my risk would have been almost NOT even theoretical. On the other hand, if it was cervical fluids, I understand from Andy's answer that it would be theoretical risk, but something which does not probably happen in reality.

Also, is my risk theoretical due to
a) fluids were exposed to air for about 20 seconds
b) the fact that I wiped the condom with tissue paper, even though my wiping was not thorough
c) too few dendritic cells in the knee area
d) the fact that HIV is simply not transmitted in this way
e) the minimal quantity of vaginal fluids
f) because outside-of-condom-to-hand-to-blood-filled cut is too difficult for HIV to travel due to its fragile nature.

Thanks a lot.
Jimmy.

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2006, 01:06:51 PM »
Jimmy,

Even if you managed to get your cut knee up inside this woman's vagina, you didn't have a risk for hiv infection.

You did not have a risk of hiv infection. Not in the real world. You do live in the real world, yes? Good. No risk.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2006, 01:28:29 PM »
Ann, Thanks for your reply. I will put this series of what-ifs (As Andy said earlier) out of my head and I will move on with life. With the knowledge I have gained from this site, I will do my best to spread the word among my friends especially about how HIV is NOT spread because I think how it is not spread is where all the ignorance begins. I have a lot of respect for experts like Ann, Andy, Jonathan, RapidRod, Morgan and other experts on this site. Now that not one, but two of the experts have told me "no risk", I feel like a burden has been lifted off my shoulders! (Don't get me wrong: I did not doubt Andy's answer even for a moment because I highly value Andy's insight and knowledge.)

I take this opportunity to express my sincere heart-felt thanks to Ann and Andy for their valuable replies which really eased my mind. Your forum really rocks!
Cheers,
Jimmy

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2006, 03:38:42 PM »
Glad you found the exchanges to be helpful, Jimmy. Good luck to you.
Andy Velez

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2006, 05:22:28 PM »
I am glad too that I found this website which provides scientifically sound and accurate information through experts who REALLY know what they are talking about. Also, I must say that the clarity with which the experts present the information in a very practical manner is impressive. 

I will summarize what I have learnt from this forum in the hope that when other worried guys like me see this summary, their fears will hopefully go away.
1) HIV in adults can only be transmitted by very specific behaviours i.e., unprotected vaginal/anal sex, injection needle sharing and probably through giving oral sex (extremely rare). Note all these behaviours involve transmission INSIDE the body. 
2) If these behaviours are absent, the risk is exactly zero in the real world.

Thanks once again Andy and Good Luck to you and Ann and to everyone on this forum.
Cheers,
Jimmy

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2006, 06:33:30 AM »
I have one additional question to ask about a separate exposure..Not sure whether I should keep the question in this thread or I should create a new thread? My apologies in advance in case I should have started a new thread..

I have read from Ann's "condom info" links that using 2 condoms at once is NOT recommended..
I had protected vaginal intercourse using 3 condoms at once..After reading the condom info here, I feel that what I did (using 3 condoms at once) was something really stupid..At that time, I thought I was protecting myself as best as I could, but now I realize my mistake.

After the protected sex, I checked the outermost of the 3 condoms by filling the condom with shower water and I also squeezed it quite a bit, but I could NOT see any water leaking out from the condom..After I checked the condom by squeezing the condom for about 1 minute, suddenly, the condom burst..

The same exact thing happened with the second condom also..it burst after I squeezed it for about 30 seconds..

The third condom, the innermost one, did not burst when I filled it with water and squeezed it, but I did not squeeze this condom too hard..Once again, I did NOT see any water leaking out of this condom. Also, my semen was still inside this innermost condom.

Is it possible that some tiny holes occurred on the condom due to the triple-bagging (i.e., friction of latex on latex) such that the tiny holes would NOT leak out water even when squeezed?

I mean, prior to a condom bursting, do very tiny holes form on the tip of the condom and then the condom bursts?

Rationally, I think that the condom burst due to me checking and squeezing it for 1 minute, so maybe the risk from my vaginal sex exposure was LOW, because there were probably no tiny holes created in the condom due to the rubbing of latex on latex during sex. If any tiny holes were there, water would have leaked out of the condom when I checked it by filling it up with water and squeezing it..I understand that condoms do NOT have tiny holes, but what I am not sure about is whether tiny holes can get created in the condom due to triple-bagging..Hence, I would very much appreciate any response from the experts about my HIV risk during this exposure..I estimate my risk to be LOW, but not sure if it was "NO RISK"..Also, is testing necessary for this exposure?

Thanks in advance.
Jimmy.

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2006, 06:41:07 AM »
Jimmy,

Your protected intercourse was not LOW risk it was NO risk.

Double or triple bagging is a risk because it might cause the condoms to break due to increased friction, as you noted. However, when a condom breaks it is a very obvious event. The stuff you see about "microscopic holes" in condoms is a myth put about by people who don't want people to use condoms and frown upon people having sexual relations outside of a marriage. This is faith-based mythology and you won't find that on this website. You will only find verifiable, scientific facts on this website.

Your condoms did not break and therefore you were not at risk during the protected intercourse you had.

You did not have a risk of hiv infection.

And please, one condom at a time in future! Condoms have been proven to be excellent protection against hiv transmission when used properly.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2006, 06:43:14 AM »
Jimmy,

I forgot to add:

While you do NOT need testing over this specific incident, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2006, 07:08:20 AM »
Ann,
    Thanks for your reply. Yes, I pass through a series of medical tests (including HIV) once every two years. I understand now that testing once a year (instead of once every 2 years) is better. All my sexual activities (including vaginal/anal/oral) have been condom-protected and I am always very cautious to the extent that I check for condom breakage every 1-2 minutes during sex.

I understand from your reply that there are NO microscopic holes in condoms, and I cannot help but feel EXTREMELY ANGRY with people who propagate such false and scary myths about condoms to scare people who are actually doing the right thing by using condoms..

But I just want to clarify: the condom BROKE during water testing when I squeezed it (after checking it for a minute), so I guess the triple-bagging must have weakened the condom somehow..due to triple-bagging, is it possible for such holes to be formed (I mean, due to the latex on latex friction) prior to the condom actually breaking? If yes, those microscopic holes could have been there during sex, right? (not due to the condom itself, but due to the friction induced by triple-bagging) Given this clarification, would your answer still remain the same i.e., NO RISK?
 
Thanks and my apologies for asking again.
Jimmy.
 

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2006, 07:41:46 AM »
Jimmy,

What did I just tell you about microscopic holes? They only exist in the fevered imaginations of some religious fanatics.

The condom broke because you filled it with water and squeezed it. No other reason. It didn't break during intercourse so you have no reason to worry. Once again, condoms provide excellent protection against hiv infection.

Quote
I cannot help but feel EXTREMELY ANGRY with people who propagate such false and scary myths about condoms to scare people who are actually doing the right thing by using condoms..
You and me both, buddy. I think it should be against the law to lie about or deprive people of the real facts concerning condoms and hiv infection.

You did NOT have a risk of hiv infection.

Ann

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2006, 07:46:00 AM »
Thanks a lot Ann for your kind and valuable advice.
Cheers,
Jimmy

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2006, 11:41:46 AM »
After reading through the Lessons, I was wondering whether negligible amount of blood (less than 1-2 drops of blood) coming into contact with the urethra could be an HIV risk?

 I received a blowjob with condom from a lady who had a cut on the hand with which she was holding my penis during the blowjob. I noticed the cut only after ejaculation, hence I guess the blood from the cut could have come into contact with my penis skin which was outside the condom. The condom covered only ¾ of my penis. Her hand cut was not actively bleeding as such, but there was very small amount of blood (less than 1-2 drops of blood on the cut)..

The condom rim was fitting very loosely on my penis because my penis was not so erect, and some of my own semen was leaking out from the base of the condom.
My concern is: Is it possible that 1-2 drops of blood, which came into contact with the skin near the base of my penis (not covered by the condom) to get inside the condom from the base, and then be dragged on by her mouth along with my semen all the way to my urethra? If yes, what would be my HIV risk in this scenario? Would be test be warranted in relation to this incident?

From reading the Lessons and several posts, I understand from the experts on this forum that receiving a blowjob is NO RISK unless any mouth punching occurs. Since no punching occurred in my case, I am not concerned at all about that. Also, I am not concerned about blood on intact skin of penis.

I know that HIV is very fragile, so I estimate my risk to be LOW. But, I also read that her saliva would be a protective factor, but in my case, her saliva would not come into contact with that blood, hence I guess my risk is increased albeit hopefully only slightly.
Also, if the blood got dragged on from my penis base to my urethra, her mouth would not come into contact with the blood (blood would be inside the condom and her mouth would be outside the condom), and the blood would not be exposed to air so much..Would the viability of the HIV particles still become zero under such circumstances?

How much blood would need to come into contact with the urethra under the above circumstances for a risk to exist?

Thanks in advance.
Jimmy.


Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2006, 11:53:53 AM »
Jimmy,

Your rather complicated scenario is not a risk for hiv infection. It just doesn't work like that. Hiv is a very fragile virus and the blood being outside the body would inactivate any possible virus present. I can't see any blood at all traveling up your penis inside a condom - it's just really far-fetched.

You would need a very large, very fresh quantity of blood to get inside your urethra in order for there to even be the slightest risk to you. Unless you're in the habit of sticking your penis into the fresh, deep cuts of other people, I can't see it happening. I really hope you can't either.

You had no risk, NO RISK from receiving a blowjob. You wouldn't have been at risk, even with no condom, even with the cut hand. Now please, stop this whatiffing and accept that you had no risk, ok?

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2006, 12:11:11 PM »
Thanks a lot Ann for your valuable advice. I understand now that my scenario is a far-fetched one (thanks to your knowledgeable advice) and HIV transmission needs to occur kind-of directly and not so indirectly as in my case. Once again, I thank you and appreciate your help in taking this load of unnecessary worry and what-ifs off me with your scientific advice.
Best wishes,
Jimmy

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2006, 06:25:39 AM »
Hello, I have a question about HIV risk about the following exposure: After having protected vaginal sex (I am a male), I IMMEDIATELY lit up a cigarette within 1-2 seconds of ejaculation. During this time, the light was switched off, so it was quite dark. Then I switched on the light. After that, I noticed some small amount of blood on the condom. I am SURE that some blood (small quantity) must have gotten from my fingers to the cigarette which I had smoked because during sex, I touch the condom a lot to make sure that it is in position. My questions are as follows:
1) What is the HIV risk from touching blood on the outside of a condom, then immediately touching a cigarette with the same blood-containing fingers and then immediately putting the cigarette into my mouth? Fresh HIV-infected blood inside the mouth would be a risk, right? Under these circumstances, would saliva be able to kill the HIV in 1-2 drops of blood? Once again, the exposure of the blood to air was very brief, maybe 1-2 seconds..
2) While taking out that cigarette, I also touched other cigarettes in the cigarette box, and I smoked 1-2 of those cigarettes later..If these cigarettes got some blood on them from my fingers, what would be my HIV risk?
3) What kind of scenario would be required for an HIV transmission risk to exist from cigarettes? Large amounts of fresh blood on the cigarette?

I clearly understand that the protected sex is NO RISK. But the blood on the condom-to fingers to cigarette to mouth is what concerns me most. I estimate the risk to be LOW, but I just cannot figure out how low the real risk is. On one hand, the blood was exposed to air for 1-2 seconds, which reduces my risk. But on the other hand, would a 1-2 second exposure to air be adequate to kill all the viable HIV particles inside that blood since blood contains high concentration of HIV, which probably increases my risk..

Thanks in advance. 
Jimmy

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2006, 07:03:01 AM »
Quote
1) What is the HIV risk from touching blood on the outside of a condom, then immediately touching a cigarette with the same blood-containing fingers and then immediately putting the cigarette into my mouth? Fresh HIV-infected blood inside the mouth would be a risk, right? Under these circumstances, would saliva be able to kill the HIV in 1-2 drops of blood? Once again, the exposure of the blood to air was very brief, maybe 1-2 seconds..
2) While taking out that cigarette, I also touched other cigarettes in the cigarette box, and I smoked 1-2 of those cigarettes later..If these cigarettes got some blood on them from my fingers, what would be my HIV risk?
3) What kind of scenario would be required for an HIV transmission risk to exist from cigarettes? Large amounts of fresh blood on the cigarette?

Jimmy,

You still had NO risk.

1. No risk. It's not just exposure to air that renders the virus unable to infect, it is also changes in temperature and pH levels. Add that together with the properties of saliva that also render the virus unable to infect, this was NOT a risk by any stretch of the imagination. HIV IS VERY FRAGILE!

2. Again, no risk whatsoever. This falls into the category of environmental "exposure" and hiv is NOT transmitted in the environment. As you have already been told, successful sexual hiv transmission occurs INSIDE the human body during unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. And that's it. It isn't transmitted in environmental circumstances.

3. There is absolutely NO risk of hiv transmission from a cigarette. You would have to (deeply) cut an hiv positive person open, put a cigarette inside the cut, and then cut yourself deeply and place your cut inside the positive persons cut and.... well, it's just not going to happen, is it. And if you do get up to activities of this nature, please have yourself committed. Now.

Jimmy, this blood/cigarette thing isn't low risk, it is absolutely NO RISK. No risk as in NO RISK.

You might like to think about seeking some professional help with your hiv anxiety before it takes over your life completely.

You have not had a risk of hiv infection. Keep using condoms and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple.

Ann

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2006, 07:11:32 AM »
Dear Ann, Thanks a lot for your reply. Your reply has really eased my mind.
Thanks once again.
Jimmy.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2006, 08:14:59 AM »
Jimmy, I suggest that it's time for you to stop thanking Ann and really listen to what has been said to you -- and to stop with the questions.

In a very polite manner you are simply going around in circles. You were not at risk for HIV. Period. HIV is not the issue.

Now the issue is how long you're going to be coming up with yet one more question instead of simply getting on with your life -- and in the process of doing that always using a single latex condom anytime and everytime you have intercourse.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2006, 03:38:56 PM »
Dear Andy,
       My apologies for my late reply.
I would like to sincerely thank you for helping me to put my fears into perspective. I have understood now that my real problem is irrational fear of HIV, not HIV itself since all my situations carried zero risk. I truly appreciate the kindness which both you and Ann has shown to me with your knowledge and expert advice.
Best wishes,
Cheers,     
Jimmy

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2006, 03:02:24 PM »
Just wanted to obtain a clarification about a different exposure. My exposure risk involves a woman kissing me on the cheek for 20-30 minutes. On my cheek, I had a small cut due to a broken pimple type of skin. I estimate that the pimple must have been broken when she was kissing me. The cut was not big, but very red. I really do not know whether the cut was bleeding during the kissing, but when I checked it in the mirror about 2 hours later, there was no blood coming out, but I did see the very very red cut.

Since the woman had brushed her teeth only 1 minute before the kissing, there could have been some blood in her saliva, which might have come into contact with my cut.

I understand that kissing is no risk when it is inside the mouth because the saliva of two people kills or deactivates HIV. But in this case, it was only her saliva, so maybe it was not adequate to deactive the virus.

If the cut was not bleeding at that time, I understand that the risk would be zero even if she had lots of blood in her mouth.

My questions are:
1) What would be my risk if my small cut was bleeding and if her mouth contained some amount of blood (could be due to brushing teeth and bleeding gums etc)? I am mainly concerned because a cut due to a broken pimple type of skin DURING kissing would be considered a FRESH cut.

2) Can blood-to-blood transmission occur in this kind of scenario?

3) How much of her blood would be required for transmission to be possible in this scenario?

4) Under what circumstances would the above episode represent a risk? would it require lots of blood from her mouth and an actively bleeding big cut or something like that?

5) Do you think that a test is required at 12 weeks for this exposure?

Thank you.
Jimmy.

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2006, 03:11:45 PM »
Jimmy,

Kissing is not a risk for hiv infection, no matter what sort of whatiffs you manage to come up with. Saliva has around 15 different enzymes that render hiv incapable of infecting another person.

Stop worrying about kissing and just make sure you use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions. Do that and you will avoid hiv infection. You can kiss to your heart's content without fear of hiv infection.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2006, 03:19:23 PM »
Ann,
   Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate your valuable advice. I can infer from your reply that saliva is able to kill the HIV virus in small amounts of blood. So, even though I had a small fresh cut, and a small amount of blood from her mouth could have come into contact with the cut, my risk would still be zero due to her saliva?
Jimmy

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2006, 05:20:49 AM »
Jimmy,

That's right. Kissing is zero risk.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline huy_skidrow

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2006, 06:17:44 AM »
Jimmy,

YOur sceranio is quite similar to mine!

Let me tell you that:We men are cursed!!! We have high sexual needs and we often make bad decisions because we think with the wrong heads. Some words of wisdom to you...stay the hell away from those damn escorts so you dont have to worry again! Good luck to you ashpin.

HUY

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2006, 12:47:57 PM »
Dear Ann,
       Many thanks for your reply.
With best wishes,
Jimmy.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2006, 01:14:42 PM »
Dear Huy,
      Thanks for your message and the good wishes. I appreciate your words of wisdom. It is true that thinking with the wrong head causes lots of worries later on. Therein, I completely agree with you!

But, with all due respect, I would beg to differ on one point: You seem to think that most escorts are HIV-positive, while others are mostly HIV-negative. Please note that certain activities (i.e., unprotected vaginal/anal sex and to a very small extent, giving blowjobs) are risky for HIV transmission. People are not risky per se, activities are.

My words of wisdom to you would be to use condoms everytime, regardless of whether the woman is an escort or a nun. (No disrespect meant towards nuns.)

By the way, since Ann mentioned that my scenario is zero risk, it means that your scenario is also zero-risk  :)
Now smile and enjoy!
Good luck to you!
Cheers,
Jimmy



Offline huy_skidrow

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2006, 10:22:49 PM »
Dear Jimmy,

Here is my scenarion described and ANN is the best expert so far...
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=1965.0

The only detail that I am different from you is that I have not penetrated the vagina, but we are worried about the outside exposure to the body fluids, may be we have reason to worry...But those who are knowleageble think it is impossile...

And, what do you think about my exposure? Is it a possible transmission ?

Take care,

HUY

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2006, 11:40:20 PM »
huy_skidrow, keep all your thoughts and questions in your own thread. You did not have a risk for HIV infection in your situation.

Offline huy_skidrow

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2006, 05:15:06 AM »
Thanks alot RAPID,

Have you read my story ? Is this possibe for the infection ?

In fact, I am afraid that the girl was on her period, so scared!!!!

Kool,

HUY

Offline Morgan

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2006, 05:40:29 AM »
Huy_skidrow,

Asking questions in someone else's thread is "hijacking".  You have been asked to keep your questions and comments in your own thread.

If you enjoy the benefit of interacting in these forums, I would suggest you knock it off.  The moderators have little patience for this behavior.

Please don't futher hijack this thread, even by replying to this post.

Morgan
Morgan Landers

Offline huy_skidrow

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2006, 06:09:32 AM »
SORRY!! I am very sorry!

Please forgive me for my silly posts!!

HUY

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2008, 11:46:46 AM »
SUBJECT: Protected vaginal sex with cuts on penis
Dear experts, just wanted a clarification on a different exposure. According to the forum guidelines, I am posting it in my previous thread. Not sure whether it is ok to change the subject line of the thread.

      A week ago, I had received a very rough handjob in which I was wearing my trousers and underwear, and the lady was shaking my p*nis from outside the trousers.
About 1 hour later, I had protected oral (blowjob) and protected vaginal sex with a female sex worker (I am a male). During the vaginal sex, she had scratched on my penis shaft accidentally a few times.

About 5-10 minutes after the vaginal sex, when I went to take a bath, I felt a stinging on the shaft of my penis when the shower water touched my penis. Upon looking more closely at the stinging part, I noticed three horizontal brown/black coloured lines on the shaft of my penis. These lines were on the shaft of my penis about 5 millimetres to 10 millimetres below the glans. The length of each of these three brown/black lines was about 7 millimetres to 10 millimetres, and their width was about 2 millimetres to 3 millimetres. I did not notice any red colour wound on those lines. As far as I could tell, there seemed to be no blood on top of those lines. The condom had slipped a bit up on the penis shaft during the vaginal sex, so I am not sure whether or not the three lines were covered by the condom during sex.

These horizontal brown/black lines could have been due to the handjob 1 hour ago or due to the lady scratching accidentally a few times on my penis shaft during the vaginal sex, hence I am not sure when these lines occurred because I noticed those lines only when showering in the bathroom.

I understand from your forums that handjob and protected oral and protected vaginal sex carry zero HIV risk. I have checked the condom after sex, and I am pretty sure that it did not break.

My questions are as follows:
1) How much HIV risk would it be if vaginal secretions during vaginal sex had come into contact with the three brown/black lines? I am concerned about this because such contact would happen inside the body (i.e., inside the vagina, which is an ideal environment for HIV transmission).
2) Is it possible for the brown/black colour wound to have bled actively or oozed blood during sex without me realizing it? I guess if it did bleed actively or oozed blood, there would be some red colour on those brown/black lines because the red colour of a bleeding or oozing wound probably does not go away so quickly just due to showering the wound with water. Or is it possible for a penis wound (which oozes blood or actively bleeds) to look brown/black within 1-2 hours of having bled actively or oozed blood? Or should it always look red under the above circumstances? I also did not notice any red or black colour of blood on the condom.
3) How much bleeding would need to occur or how deep does the wound need to be for HIV transmission to occur if the condom did not cover the wound during certain times in the vaginal sex? Does it need to be an actively bleeding penis cut for transmission to occur or would a penis cut with small amount of oozing blood be sufficient for transmission to occur?
4) Is an HIV test necessary for this situation?

I really appreciate if the experts could provide me their comments on the above situation.

Thanking you and Happy New Year!
Jimmy


Offline RapidRod

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2008, 12:09:47 PM »
You don't get HIV from a hand job period no matter what kind of spin you want to put on it.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2008, 12:33:51 PM »
Dear RapidRod,
       Thanks for your quick reply. I am not worried at all about the handjob. I am worried about the exposure of the three horizontal black/brown lines to vaginal secretions during the protected vaginal sex, where the three wound lines may not have been covered at certain times by the condom. Also, the brown/black lines could have appeared due to the few accidental scratches the sex worker lady gave on my penis during the protected vaginal sex or they could be the result of the condom protected blowjob due to their teeth.

Reading replies from the forum experts including yourself, I estimate my risk to be low because
 I used a condom for the vaginal sex, but my only concern is how much of a risk would it be if the three brown/black lines were exposed to the vaginal secretions INSIDE the vagina during the vaginal sex?  Because in many replies of the experts on this forum such as Ann, Andy and yourself, I have noted that it has been mentioned that "inside the vagina" is an ideal environment for HIV transmission, while transmission cannot happen outside the body unless in medical settings..

I know that you are one of the experts, hence I would humbly request your kind clarification on this issue.

Thanks sincerely,
Jimmy



Thanks.
Jimmy

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2008, 12:52:37 PM »
You didn't have an open wound. Still no risk.

Offline Ann

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2008, 12:55:02 PM »
Jim,

Protected intercourse means you weren't exposed. You didn't have a risk.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2008, 01:07:39 PM »
Dear Ann and RapidRod,
        I express my sincere thanks for your informative replies. I understand that the protected sex is zero risk.

What does open wound mean? Does it mean
blood actively coming out or oozing out of the wound, blood visible on top of the wound, sticky-with-blood wound etc?

Could those three brown/black lines have bled or oozed blood during the vaginal sex and then
turned to the brown/black colour and dried up within 1 hours' time?

Or is it that any penis cut which oozes blood or actively bleeds would still look red (and NOT brown/black) after 1-2 hours of the cut happening?

My sincere apologies for coming back with yet another question.
Sincerely,
Jimmy
 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2008, 01:10:01 PM »
Just to clarify, the urethra was always protected during the vaginal sex, but I am not sure if those 3 brown/black lines were covered by the condom at all times during the sex. Maybe at certain times during the sex, those brown/black lines were left uncovered due to the condom slipping up a bit on the penis shaft..

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2008, 02:13:08 PM »
You weren't at risk.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2008, 10:16:55 AM »
Dear RapidRod,
        Thanks for your reply. Just for future reference, what does an open wound constitute? Does it mean actively bleeding type of wound or wound with some blood on top etc?

Thanks.
Jimmy

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2008, 10:20:46 AM »
Do you know what a laceration is? Profuse bleeding? That's an open would that may put someone at risk.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2008, 10:48:55 AM »
The skin is an organ which almost immediately begins to create a protective covering on any wound. When that happens it's not immediately visible to the eye. What you are fretting about -- those lines you keep bringing up -- are not even remotely a fresh wound even IF, (note that IF), those marks hadn't been covered by the condom.

HIV is a fragile virus and needs a very receptive setting in which to be transmitted. Nothing you have described presents such a setting.

You need to get on to other things in your life. Just keep using condoms everytime and you'll be fine as far as sex and HIV is concerned. 
Andy Velez

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Vaginal or cervical secretions indirectly on fresh open cut
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2008, 10:52:50 AM »
Dear RapidRod,
       Many thanks for the clarification. I looked up google search to see what laceration and profuse bleeding means. I realize that laceration-type profuse bleeding is extremely rare and happens only in very specific circumstances. Now I understand clearly why my situation was no risk since I did not have any laceration-type profuse bleeding..

Many thanks once again.
Jimmy

 


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