Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 30, 2014, 06:59:18 AM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
  • Total Members: 23344
  • Latest: TML1991
Stats
  • Total Posts: 636628
  • Total Topics: 48319
  • Online Today: 171
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online
Users: 2
Guests: 127
Total: 129

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Transmission: a moral question  (Read 8983 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline leximancer

  • Member
  • Posts: 21
    • a thousand words
Transmission: a moral question
« on: June 12, 2006, 12:42:58 AM »
This is a question I've been struggling with for a few days.  I hope, by sharing it with you guys, I can get some insight and maybe even spur some good discussion.

When is it okay, if ever, to willingly transmit HIV to another person?  Not disclosing before sex obviously speaks of very poor character, but what about other situations?  What about if you disclose and they insist on unprotected sex anyway?  What about bug chasers?  What about to people who have a condition that ensures they won't stay alive long enough for AIDS to develop?  Or to someone who wants to share the experience of HIV with you?  Do you think that we, as positive people, have an obligation to keep HIV from spreading?

Your thoughts, please.

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 01:11:58 AM »
Do you think that we, as positive people, have an obligation to keep HIV from spreading?

As for "groupspeak", I won't comment..... but *I* have an individual obligation to not spread HIV

Offline otherplaces

  • Member
  • Posts: 398
  • Mutant Super Hero
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 01:27:54 AM »

I feel a responsibility to make sure I don't spread the virus.

But lets entertain a hypothetical that there is a situation where it'd be okay. Even then now someone else is infected and you have no control over who they sleep with. They could spread it to someone who very much doesn't want to be infected.

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,228
  • Ninja Please
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 03:40:48 AM »
Lex,

I've never been in a situtation where I've found it appropriate to knowingly transmit HIV to another. Occasionally I've encountered bug-chasers who, upon learning my status, have propositioned me for sex. I have idly considered the possibility of gifting one of those types. Not because they want it, but so that they might really know what they're asking for. But then I always think about the people they'll go onto infect and that kills any such thoughts.

I hope I never find myself in circumstances where the prospect of deliberately infecting someone seems acceptable.

MtD

Offline carousel

  • Member
  • Posts: 821
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 05:12:57 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 01:01:54 PM by carousel »

Offline blondbeauty

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,784
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 05:17:08 AM »
I wouldn´t do it because I think its something evil. But being shelfish and practical...I dont want the social security to be collapsed with HIV patients (I want to be the only one to get the best medical attention) and I wouldn´t have unsafe sex to get another strain or any other infection that could compromise my future treatment options.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,228
  • Ninja Please
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 07:37:22 AM »
Quote
I have a real problem with terms like bug chasers, as I think that the only thing that it says about people is that they are looking to get infected, when in fact there may be very complex reasons why somebody is no longer worried about getting hiv.

Well when someone approaches me in a bar or a sex joint and asks "I hear you're positive, can we bareback?" you'll forgive me if I don't undertake a nuanced sociological assessment on the spot. It's happened to me several times in the last three years.

Bug chaser fits the bill just nicely for me in those circumstances.

MtD

Offline cubbybear

  • Member
  • Posts: 510
  • Joined August 2005.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 07:57:14 AM »
Personally speaking I am not going to knowingly transmit this virus to anyone, my virus ends with me.  I won't even have unsafe sex with another positive person as I don't fancy getting a superinfection and inheriting their resistances/mutations that I might not have and potentially lessening my treatment options in the future.  I also don't want to put myself in the position of picking up what ever else they may be harboring like Hep/HPV/Gon/Syph etc.
There's a bear in there!
Positive since 2000
Diagnosed 17/9/2005 CD4 35 VL 293,000
Meds 23/9/2005 Sustiva/Truvada
Currently CD4 232 VL Undetectable

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,954
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 08:06:33 AM »
Of course we have a moral obligation...to think or DO otherwise would be morally reprehensible. Oh and in many countries illegal.

Peace,
Hal
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 08:21:50 AM by Dachshund »

Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,394
  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 08:27:26 AM »
Not being as young and virile as MtD, it has been a few years since someone has approached me in an vain attempt of acquiring "the gift."

Those were their words, not mine. "The gift." Right.  :(

I refused them then, I would refuse anyone now who sought the same. I don't care what their psycho-social situation is. I don't care if they're in a depression, just broke up with the love of their life, are stoned off their arse, want to be part of the "in" crowd, whatever.

They're not getting it from me because I couldn't live with myself knowing I had deliberately passed this on to someone else.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Mark


"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline carousel

  • Member
  • Posts: 821
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 08:43:50 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 12:55:21 PM by carousel »

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,954
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 09:02:57 AM »
I hate to disagree with you but the issue of a bug chaser is not a personal one. Knowingly having unprotected sex with someone while HIV positive is wrong...dead wrong.

Peace,
Hal

Offline Sdgirl

  • Member
  • Posts: 247
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 09:35:55 AM »
AMEN Hal!

We have a moral and personal responsibility.........We have to be the responsible ones.  If someone is interested in having unprotected sex with an HIV+ person, it is incumbent upon the person with HIV to NOT EVEN entertain the idea.  Period, end of story.

Lisa
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.  Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.  It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.  We ask ourselves.."Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?  Actually, who are you not to be?"

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 10:01:03 AM »
I think arguing semantics is rather beside the point. Someone can have complex and deep-seated reasons for his drinking to excess, but the label of "alcoholic" may still be appropriate.

Bug-Chaser, as Cliff pointed out a few months ago, fits many of us perfectly, whether we were in "denial," in Love, on drugs, naive, or misled. Low self esteem, HIV apathy and/or burnout, or the arrogance that we were removed from the pandemic facilitated many of our choices to ahve unprotected sex.

Is HIV a character flaw? I don't think so. I don't even think that having unprotected sex represents/implies a character defect. My parents barebacked a lot during their 51 years of marriage. I am proof of that.

Thing is, we live in a culture that is desperately trying to shove HIV aside, as it's SO 1990s. We dismiss it as no big deal. Doctors do it to the newly diagnosed, for God/dess' sake. So it should not stun us that uninfected people, exposed to that sort of misinformation, believe the crap. Maybe that's why I get so vehement when I hear people soft-peddling the impact of the drugs, their severity, their financial burden, their long-term impact on our lives.

The strain of HIV that YOU might have, that might co-exist with your body's chemistry for a decade or more before you even contemplate drug treatment, might ravage someone else until they are dead in a year. As people with HIV, we presumably have a better understanding of the virus than the average uninfected person. And if we don't, we'd better, for our sake. Dismissing drug toxicity, dismissing AIDS as a thing of the past, dismissing the experiences of those grappling with dementia, PN, ongoing PCP, KS scars, lipoatrophy/dostrophy, is beyond stigmatic. It's suicidal.

We just can't buy into that sort of denialist crap - because when we DO, suddenly our virus becomes less serious, and the prospect of passing it on seems less morally absolute.

And yeah, I think there might be one or two moral absolutes left in the world. Intentionally exposing someone to HIV is not cool. Not only because of the damage it does to the "bug chaser," but to the damage it does to the giver, as well.  Shit like that will eat your soul for breakfast, and still be hungry. Good luck finding the fix that will take the edge off THAT.

That having been said, I still think that the laws on the books regarding HIV infection are absurd and wrong. And I also acknowledge that I have not always lived a morally perfect life post-infection.  I know my house is made of glass, what's left of it after the stonings.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2006, 10:16:09 AM »
Jonathan,

I agree and couldn't have said it better myself.  As usual, you've given us a thought-provoking reply.  I just hope that, when the time comes, I can live up to these moral standards/ obligations.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,954
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2006, 10:22:19 AM »
I think what Jonathan is saying is spot-on. There is not much reason to debate this morality tale,because as poz people we all know the ending.

I still remember being told I had tested positive...my first thought was God do what you will with me,but I beg you please let my lover be negative (he was) I just don't think I can handle that.

Peace,
Hal

Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,394
  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2006, 10:33:24 AM »
That is why I have always refused such offers. I couldn't live with myself. Its not that I am so morally pure, because I'm not.

I just couldn't do it. I'm not even sure I could function under those circumstances.

Like I said earlier, I don't care what those seeking infection want. It is my choice and I have to look in the mirror in the morning.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2006, 11:10:19 AM »
1.   When is it okay, if ever, to willingly transmit HIV to another person? 
2.  Not disclosing before sex obviously speaks of very poor character, but what about other situations? 
3.  What about if you disclose and they insist on unprotected sex anyway? 
4.  What about bug chasers? 
5.  What about to people who have a condition that ensures they won't stay alive long enough for AIDS to develop? 
6.  Or to someone who wants to share the experience of HIV with you? 
7.  Do you think that we, as positive people, have an obligation to keep HIV from spreading?

Your thoughts, please.

Well my friend, you asked, and since Jonathan gave us more than one line, I am going to take liberties on this one.....................

#1.  Never
2.    There are no other situations!
3.    No skin off my nose, they are not getting unprotected sex from me anyway.
4.    You asked this and then tried to say you were uncomfortable with the answer from Matty?????
5.    You and I are not God.....
6.    You don't have to share everything in life.  This diminishes you to nothing more than a newspaper article.
7.    No, I do............

Listen, on the surface my answers seem to be cold and unfeeling.  Well, they are in a way.  I have to think about this in the context of other life and death situations, and when thinking about it in this way, I ask myself many questions in the same way you are here. 

If a person wants to kill another person, is it OK for me to assist them in that accomplishment.  Is it OK for me to give them a gun, a bullet or two, keys to an SUV to run them over when they screw up the gunshot? 

I don't care what or how you wrap this scenario, the MORAL answer is still the same, and if you relate it to other immoral situations the answers are still the same. 

Personally, my HIV is mine, and I am not going to give it to anyone else to play with. 

Safe sex is not boring, and this discussion completely negates the power of the brain to make any sexual contact, one of fullness and joy, regardless of the transfer of semen, or vaginal fluids.  We need to get off this idea that to have intimate sexual relations with another person depends wholly on the physical contact of penis to vagina, or anus.  This is absurd in the extreme.  If one is insistant on this premise, then they should never attempt to be intimate with anyone BUT those already HIV+.  That way, there is a level playing field.  On the chance that someone reads this that understands Viral mutation, I am one that also feels that one that is HIV+, is not particularly safe with another HIV+ person, due to the myriad of mutations that can take place with this bug, and then you end up with an untreatable mutant virus, and then you are dead.  In the end, I guess  it really doesn't matter, as people are going to do what people are going to do, and there is little that anyone can do to affect that.  Otherwise, we would not have a global pandemic on our hands.

In Love.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline DCGuy511

  • Member
  • Posts: 61
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2006, 11:11:45 AM »
I agree with those who say that it is morally wrong to intentionally infect another person. I can't even imagine a situation where it would be otherwise.  

The "chasers" do not know what they are asking.  Those of us with the disease know that it isn't just a matter of taking a few pills. I've never met a real chaser, seen a few in chatrooms, but I stay away.  
Steve
Infected/Diagnosed Fall 2003
"No Man Is An Island" - J Donne

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2006, 11:15:43 AM »
<<The "chasers" do not know what they are asking>>

What frightens me is that newly infected people, given so much misinformation in attempts to assuage their fear, do not know what they are giving any longer. We really have oversold HIV as a chronic and manageable thing, haven't we?

I think some things are worth our fear and respect. This virus is one of them.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2006, 11:22:40 AM »
<<The "chasers" do not know what they are asking>>

We really have oversold HIV as a chronic and manageable thing, haven't we?

I think some things are worth our fear and respect. This virus is one of them.




sorry Jonathan, you shouldn't be so quoteable.

AMEN!!!!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline DingoBoi

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,355
  • Bailey's Infected Cream™ Served since 2004
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2006, 11:34:11 AM »
to throw a tempest into the teapot....the idea of barebacking a neggie is hot (to me) since it's 'forbidden fruit.'     Would I?  I hope not.  Should I?  Definitely not.   Might I?  Havent' been faced with that situation.   The psychological allure works both ways... Course, I think about murdering my bosses all the time... but i don't.




Offline leximancer

  • Member
  • Posts: 21
    • a thousand words
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2006, 12:45:40 PM »
Thank you all for your responses.  The reason why I asked was because I've just broken up with my boyfriend (two years) because he cheated on me, didn't use protection, and then didn't tell me about it.  What really disgusted me was that he, being positive, didn't use protection.  He said the other guy knew and didn't care.  I've been trying to understand his point of view, exploring other ways of thinking, to try to see if I can come up with an understandable reason why he would do chance exposing someone.  I thought perhaps some of you might have reasons that I hadn't thought up, but evidently we're in agreement on this issue.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 12:47:36 PM by leximancer »

Offline jon

  • Member
  • Posts: 18
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2006, 12:55:00 PM »
Knowingly infecting another person is morally reprehensible, and legally is called Voluntary Manslaughter.
You'll have to kill Me before I die!!!

Offline fearless

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2006, 08:49:57 AM »
I don't think it is as cut and dried or as easy as you would all have me believe.
There are no absolutes in this life, except death, and everyone should reach their own decision based on the circumstances at the time.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline Cliff

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,645
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2006, 09:58:07 AM »
We probably burden ourselves with all these morality issues and even worse, giving hard and fast proclamations to issues that are very complex with loads of gray area.  In the end, instead of us telling what other people MUST do, perhaps we should say what's the best thing to do (AND WHY) or say what WE would do and HOW we feel about it, then let everyone come to their OWN conclusions.

These sorts of discussions, typically run straight to bug chasers, but there are probably more complicated scenarios that are both more realistic and relevant.  For example, what about the couple that decides to ditch condoms because they feel HIV is a barrier to intimacy or they are simply tired of dealing with all the precautions?  I suppose one could stand one their soap box and tell the person who is HIV positive that he or she is a very bad person if they do that.  But as far as I'm concerned that's an issue for them to decide together.

It's bad enough wondering through the legal and ethical maze of safer sex and disclosure, without the added burden of people who are also positive telling you that you may be morally corrupt if you don't act a certain way.

Cliff

P.S.- That's not to say that you can't or shouldn't explain or discuss the consequences of your actions (i.e., discussing the possibility of someone who you, as a positive person, has properly disclosed, unprotected sex with later on deciding that they don't want to be positive or that they could go on to infect someone else).  But you will probably find that someone is more likely to make the best decision, if they are given positive support/reinforcement, rather than simply being told that do X is wrong and you will burn in hell or rot in jail if you do it.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 09:59:58 AM by Cliff »

Offline USNRET

  • Member
  • Posts: 19
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2006, 09:25:15 PM »
I agree with Jon >:(

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,228
  • Ninja Please
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2006, 09:59:06 PM »
I agree with Jon >:(

I wish it were that straight forward.

MtD

Offline Oceanbeach

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2006, 05:26:18 PM »
I have been dealing with this question for years.  The possibility of destroying another human being, whether they say the want it or not, is just not acceptable.  People have asked because they wanted HOPWA, bad choice for a government funded program that is not guaranteed.  Healthcare funding is at stake in a big way this year.  There is no guarantee it will be available at all in 3 years.

Ever taken Norvir?  Six pills, three times per day of the most miserable side effects known to modern civilization.  Have you ever had an uncontrolled bowel movement in a public place?  If so, did you walk home or take public transportation?

Ever taken AZT?  I spent the first month so sick, I could not stand up at the stove long enough to heat a can of soup which was provided by a charity food bank.  Let alone eat it.

Ever notice the phone used to ring with calls from interesting people with invitations and thought provoking conversation?  They lost your number.

Ever go visit your "home town" and find no one you used to be friends with will be available to visit because your brother told everyone you have AIDS?  Ever notice on Thansgiving, Christmas, Easter and all birthdays, the only card that come in the mail are from the Healthcare Clinic and the ASO's?  Guess who isn't invited to any family gatherings?

I am involved in every committee and task force in my county which is formed to improve the quality of life and insure continued services for people living with HIV/AIDS.  I have recently agreed to serve on the Board of Directors of the new AIDS Nutrient Bank and have accepted the invitation to serve on the Board of Directors of Project Africa (an organization which provides food for children and babies living with HIV and on anti-retrovirals in Namibia and Global Bridges, an organization which provides scholorships for young girls in Zimbabwe.

If anyone wants the humiliation, the public shunning and all the side effects of HIV, they may have mine.  I am too busy to give it to them personally.  Have the best day
Michael

www.Commission-on-AIDS.org   
« Last Edit: June 17, 2006, 05:30:10 PM by Sonomabeach »

Offline david25luvit

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,409
  • Member since March 2005
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2006, 05:38:55 PM »
Like the majority, I can't imagine one reason why I would ever knowingly "transmit" the "Gift" to anyone.  A rose by any other name is still a rose and so it is with Bug Chasers.  When David died, his only regret in life was that he had transmitted the virus to me....  I'd like for our particular bug( his and mine) to die with me.  Which is probably why I
won't even date anyone unless they are positive....Which in a way is bigotted but I just won't take the risk.
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2006, 07:54:04 PM »
Holy shit, sonomabeach. You sure captured the experience in a consise way.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2006, 11:52:17 PM »
Trust me Dingo.  There are many like you.  I belong to this video chat service and there's always a room labeled "Poz Breeding Neg" or something similar.  Alwasy a good 10-20 guys in the room at one time and always get the usual message asking "you got the bug". 

The word "moral" is very subjective and is based on many different theories.  One theory states that people act more morally when others are around.  It just makes me think if anyone would come here and honestly answer yes to any of the original questions. 


to throw a tempest into the teapot....the idea of barebacking a neggie is hot (to me) since it's 'forbidden fruit.'     Would I?  I hope not.  Should I?  Definitely not.   Might I?  Havent' been faced with that situation.   The psychological allure works both ways... Course, I think about murdering my bosses all the time... but i don't.





Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2006, 12:00:25 AM »
I believe you might have had a point a few years ago. I know for a fact that when I got here, I started being totally honest, to the detriment of the groupthink, about my sexual and social proclivities.

I will cheerfully bareback with another poz person, once I am convinced that they know the facts (such as they are) about reinfection and have arrived at the same conclusion as myself. I will not, however, seed a negative person. Because I know shit that they do not about living with this virus for a decade.

Methinks you assume a great deal about those of us who have arrived at our personal decisions. Trust me... I only speak for myself... but I speak from personal experience that shoudl at least be worth the respect that my choices deserve.

So, Dennis, YOU tell ME, rather than simple condescending to the masses, under which circumstances would YOU breed a negative person?

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2006, 12:33:52 AM »
JK,
No need to make this personal.  I was in no way trying to be condenscending, nor was I assuming anything about anyone persons personal opinion.  Afterall, that's basically all morality is; an opinion.  All I was doing was throwing a theory into the pot about morality. 

I never mentioned that I would or wouldn't breed a negative person.  So why would you assume that I would?  I don't even think I could honestly answer that question because I've never been place in that situation and I hope I never am. 

I ask you though, why would you "cheerfully" bareback a another poz person, assuming they know the fact regarding superinfection but you won't bareback a negative person?  What if that negative person was very well aware of all consequences and all facts "as they are" regarding HIV/AIDS?  Why is your moral decision split in these two incidences?

I believe you might have had a point a few years ago. I know for a fact that when I got here, I started being totally honest, to the detriment of the groupthink, about my sexual and social proclivities.

I will cheerfully bareback with another poz person, once I am convinced that they know the facts (such as they are) about reinfection and have arrived at the same conclusion as myself. I will not, however, seed a negative person. Because I know shit that they do not about living with this virus for a decade.

Methinks you assume a great deal about those of us who have arrived at our personal decisions. Trust me... I only speak for myself... but I speak from personal experience that shoudl at least be worth the respect that my choices deserve.

So, Dennis, YOU tell ME, rather than simple condescending to the masses, under which circumstances would YOU breed a negative person?



Offline david25luvit

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,409
  • Member since March 2005
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2006, 12:37:19 AM »
Sorry about the double post...........
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 12:46:14 AM by david25luvit »
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline david25luvit

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,409
  • Member since March 2005
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2006, 12:43:14 AM »
Dennis...  I dare say there are those who WOULD infect a negative person...whether it be the allure of a particular bug chaser or the person who thinks like Bailey or whatever....not that I believe Bailey would actually act on his thoughts...some I'm quite certain WOULD.  Morality is a personal thing.  For most its about what you can live with and personally I could never "live with myself" if I knowingly transmitted this virus of mine to anyone.  Could you?
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2006, 12:52:16 AM »
I am not at all takin this personally. Trust me, you would know were that the case. I was simply responding to a post that seemed aimed rather personally, for motivsations which escape me.

Is there an allure to barebacking? Sure.

Do I think that I have any real risk of reinfecting another poz person? No, I do not. And that is based on the science. Does the same hold trus for barebacking with a negative person? No, of course not. If you want the science and yet another conversation about reinfection/superinfection, by all means start that thread.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2006, 12:56:19 AM »
I probably wouldn't be able to live with myself, David.  But Cliff does bring up some very good points and scenarios in his post.  And I'm sure there are 100 ore that he didn't mention.  Morality is a very personal decision, and for most, changes depending on the situation.  Humans can be very selfish, and unfortunatley, most don't think about the moral consequences until after their actions.

I could very easily ask the group "is it moral to steal?"  And of course, everyone will answer, "no, it not moral to steal."  Well, imagine a single mother, who's HIV+, and who's baby is HIV+, and has falling through the government cracks and can't afford to feed her baby.  Would you condemn her for stealing baby food to feed her child? 

Offline david25luvit

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,409
  • Member since March 2005
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2006, 01:07:29 AM »
Interesting point Dennis...but I don't think you can equate stealing with knowingly transmitting a deadly virus.  In your scenario...No.  I wouldn't blame her for stealing.  However I would be very disappointed if she knowlingly gave her new boyfriend the HIV virus.   Morality is a very personal thing.  And Yes, sometimes we don't forsee the consequences to our actions until its too late....  Thank you for your candid response.
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2006, 01:10:23 AM »
JK, when I have motives, I make them very clear.  I have none.  i'm Just participating in a topic about morality, which I have a fond interest in. 

Have a good night JK.


I am not at all takin this personally. Trust me, you would know were that the case. I was simply responding to a post that seemed aimed rather personally, for motivsations which escape me.

Is there an allure to barebacking? Sure.

Do I think that I have any real risk of reinfecting another poz person? No, I do not. And that is based on the science. Does the same hold trus for barebacking with a negative person? No, of course not. If you want the science and yet another conversation about reinfection/superinfection, by all means start that thread.



Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2006, 01:15:42 AM »
No, you can't equate stealing to transmitting a deadly virus.  Just trying to make the point that morality is not so cut and dry regarding any situation. 

Curious though.  Can you think of a scenario in your example where you would't be dissapointed if a girlfriend knowingly transmitted the virus to her boyfriend?

Interesting point Dennis...but I don't think you can equate stealing with knowingly transmitting a deadly virus.  In your scenario...No.  I wouldn't blame her for stealing.  However I would be very disappointed if she knowlingly gave her new boyfriend the HIV virus.   Morality is a very personal thing.  And Yes, sometimes we don't forsee the consequences to our actions until its too late....  Thank you for your candid response.

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2006, 01:18:11 AM »
<<I could very easily ask the group "is it moral to steal?"  And of course, everyone will answer, "no, it not moral to steal.">>

This is not accurate. I would never answer that way. However, to equate theft to intentionally transmitting HIV seems to indicate a lack of knowledge about the ramifications of HIV infection. Society is far more forgiving and accepting of a thief.

This is not a question about morality. Mine is mutable, at best. Its about, knowing what we individually know about our infection, whether we would be willing to pass those experiences to another.

To me, that is a morally reprehensdible thing to do. I am interested in hearing from those who believe that their infection is worth sharing, and under what conditions.



PS: Dennis... I can tell when someone is seriously participating in a thread and being intentionally provocative. I dont do the flamewar thing :)



« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 01:26:10 AM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline david25luvit

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,409
  • Member since March 2005
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2006, 01:21:18 AM »
Quite simply....NO.
In Memory of
Raymond David McRae III
Nov. 25, 1972- Oct. 15, 2004
I miss him terribly..........

Offline Eldon

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,664
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2006, 01:26:59 AM »
Tim and Johnathan have said it all.

Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2006, 01:28:59 AM »
You're not making this personal, JK?  Let see.   In one post you stated..

"So, Dennis, YOU tell ME, rather than simple condescending to the masses..."

And in your last post you allude to the fact that I"m ignorant regarding my own HIV infection. 

If that's not making this personal than I don't know what is. 

May I suggest adding a book to read to your library.  "Ethics for Life" by Judith Boss.  Perhaps then,  you and I can have an intelligent conversation regarding Morality.

PS.. If by provoke you mean to stimulate, than yes, I'm guilty.  How dare I stimulate conversation regarding the topic of morality! 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 01:32:23 AM by Dennis »

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2006, 01:32:47 AM »

:) I respectfully withdraw from the conversation

PS: Please don't request that I read a book on ethics. Having been an LPC, and a member of an ethics committee, I daresay I understand ethics. This is not an ethical question, but a moral one. And yes, there is a difference. A profound one.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 02:45:28 AM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Cliff

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,645
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2006, 05:56:21 AM »
What really disgusted me was that he, being positive, didn't use protection.  He said the other guy knew and didn't care.  I've been trying to understand his point of view, exploring other ways of thinking, to try to see if I can come up with an understandable reason why he would do chance exposing someone.
Could it be that he assumed the other guy to be positive?  It's not a far-fetch scenario that someone who knows their sexual partner to be positive and chooses to have unprotected sex, does so because they too are positive and just decided not to disclose? 

There are people out there who will not disclose their HIV status, even if the other person has.  This honestly sounds more like heaping more judgment on your BF because he cheated on you.  The devil incarnate he may be, but I'm willing to bet that he's just human.  Like the rest of us.

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2006, 10:02:11 AM »
I am interested in hearing from those who believe that their infection is worth sharing, and under what conditions.

i doubt you'll get that here. they probably represent less than 1% of the total HIV+ population

anyway as far as regulars in bug-chaser-gift-giver chatrooms, they don't post here. they're usually too busy (I'll be polite here) y'know, doin' what they do .... orgasms to the front, intellectual stuff to the back

Offline tuggem

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
  • Ron Hudson, same body, new face
    • 2sides2ron
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2006, 10:27:04 AM »
I have had a couple of situations where I was reaching for a condom and had a guy sit on me or where we were having oral sex, and they wouldn't let me pull out at the moment of orgasm.  What about those situations?  I assumed that both guys were poz because I disclosed my status to them, but who knows, really?

I do think that it is one thing to have the discussion and believe what we would do and another thing entirely during the moments of passion, particularly when we can't always control the actions of others.  Even when I have barebacked (don't like to do it) with other poz guys, I usually pull out before ejaculation, except in the few cases where I have been pinned into position, so to speak.
Lexiva, Videx EC

About 18 other meds to manage my side-effects/concomitant issues like diabetes, renal insufficiency, hypertension, hyperlipidemia, etc.

Poz since 08/25/1985 or earlier

Safe journeys!

Ce fut une belle aventure...

Offline Dennis

  • Member
  • Posts: 781
Re: Transmission: a moral question
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2006, 10:41:00 AM »
Ethics and morality are very closely inter-related.  Ethics is a system of moral values.  Ethics is also the study of morals and the specific moral choices a person makes. The basis of any Ethics book is going to be morality. As an LPC I'm sure you had a code of ethics?  And what is a code of ethics?  Simply, a set of moral standards.  Therefore, this is a question of an ethical and moral nature.


PS: Please don't request that I read a book on ethics. Having been an LPC, and a member of an ethics committee, I daresay I understand ethics. This is not an ethical question, but a moral one. And yes, there is a difference. A profound one.




 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.