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Author Topic: Ungracefull death  (Read 2738 times)

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Offline SASA39

  • Member
  • Posts: 690
Ungracefull death
« on: March 02, 2007, 02:12:53 PM »
In Serbia  2000-2006 :

Example 1 : just two years before there was a state  note that every patient that has been on HAART and his CD4 was > 250 has to stop treatment due to a shortage of supplies.Now that line is somewhere beetwen 500-600.


Example2 : When I was in a hospital , they brought a patient , an old hobo , heavily breathing and in some kind of pains.It was a weekend and a doctor who was orderly then said to nurses : ( I have heard it because I was close behind the doors just passing by) " Don`t give him Trodon for pain , because it level down a number of white blood cells. He had came here to die anyway , I think "
Man was on his feet two days after just with oxygen therapy , but still in some pains...................

Could we called this anti-euthanasia ?
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2007, 05:39:03 PM »
In Serbia  2000-2006 :
Example 1 : just two years before there was a state  note that every patient that has been on HAART and his CD4 was > 250 has to stop treatment due to a shortage of supplies.Now that line is somewhere beetwen 500-600.


Does this not shock the group here?????????????????????

Geez guys, all I want to do is cry, because we don't have to stop medications here in this country at all.  In fact the opposite is true, we are encouraged to stay on meds forever. 

WE ARE BLESSED!!!!

I don't know whether to cry or be angry.  This is just not fair at all...

Love, and Despondent!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2007, 05:51:27 PM »
Daddy Tim,

I could not agree with you more. This is more than shocking. It's obscene. I wonder if some of our European members would like to comment on this, rather than tut-tut at the health-care system of America. Last time I checked, Serbia was part of the Continent.

MtD
(Who is grateful to SASA for raising this)

Offline Central79

  • Member
  • Posts: 527
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2007, 06:04:40 PM »
Not really reasonable to lump us all together as "Europeans" as Europe is not one state, like the US or indeed Australia - and waiting times in the US certainly vary considerably state-by-state, with a number of people dying on North Carolina's ADAP waiting list recently. It's reasonable to expect a greater variation across European nations.

Here in the UK, we are definitely lucky in having no waiting list for HIV medication, and no charges to obtain them. Similar (or better) healthcare systems are present in almost all of the 27 member states of the European Union. Serbia is a potential candidate for EU membership, but will have to meet certain economic, health and social requirements it currently does not, and is not expected to in the next decade.

I think there is a choice to be made between social medicine practised for the health of entire populations, and a system that disenfranchises significant portions of a population in order to provide the rest with healthcare, which often boils down to more convenience and choice, rather than "better" actual health outcomes. In Europe, we have consistently chosen the former, which I personally agree with. The US spends more than 3 times as much per capita on healthcare than the UK, but that healthcare doesn't cover the entire population, with about 20% being totally uninsured, and a further 20% more being under insured. That's 60 million Americans.

So I don't think it's reasonable to take Serbia's case as an example of "European" healthcare, merely because it is in Europe.

Love Matt
(who speaks for Europeans everywhere)
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2007, 06:10:10 PM »
Matt,

Matty the Damned has never even attempted to be reasonable about anything. It's not a colour that suits him.

I understand all the EU membership requirements and the astonishing lather of beauracracy that our Continental friends love to wallow in. I wasn't really referring to that. I'm merely pointing out that Serbia (whether it's ready to join the Eurotrash Elite yet or not) is within the circle of your responsibility.

I'm sure that EU eligibility requirements are a great comfort to those dying of AIDS in Serbia.

MtD

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2007, 06:27:11 PM »
Matt,

Matty the Damned has never even attempted to be reasonable about anything. It's not a colour that suits him.

I understand all the EU membership requirements and the astonishing lather of beauracracy that our Continental friends love to wallow in. I wasn't really referring to that. I'm merely pointing out that Serbia (whether it's ready to join the Eurotrash Elite yet or not) is within the circle of your responsibility.

I'm sure that EU eligibility requirements are a great comfort to those dying of AIDS in Serbia.

MtD

But it's easier to tut-tut problems across the ocean than fix them in your own backyard.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Central79

  • Member
  • Posts: 527
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2007, 06:33:59 PM »
If you want to look at beaurocracy, then look no further than the US healtcare system - that's why it's so damn expensive. The costs of adminstering it swallow up huge amounts of cash.

I don't know what you mean by "the circle of your responsibility". That's like saying Australia is responsible for the people dying of AIDS in Indonesia. Or the US is responsible for Mexico. Seperate nation states, seperate governments.

If you looking for people to comfort, try the people on the South Carolina ADAP waiting list. North Carolina has gotten its act together, no longer any waiting list there. But people had to die. These people are literally dying totally preventable deaths in the richest country in the world. My point about the EU was that Europe is not a nation, has many countries within it, and some of those countries are poor.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline Elizabeth

  • Member
  • Posts: 62
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2007, 06:43:57 PM »
Gentlemen:

This thread is NOT about the current health care in Europe, the US, Austriala, etc. 

This is about ONE MAN'S STRUGGLE.  So quit the pissing contest and think about how you might direct your misguided energies into supporting him.

*****************************
AL,

I'm glad to see you posted your story in the other thread.  As I told you when you first PM'd me, I think you are a man of strength and I can't imagine the hardships you and your family have dealt with.  I don't know what if anything we can do for you in a concrete way, but you have just to ask.  As I told you before.  The people on this board are of good heart.  I'm so glad to see you are starting to reach out.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Posts: 12,244
  • Ninja Please
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 06:45:53 PM »
I don't know what you mean by "the circle of your responsibility". That's like saying Australia is responsible for the people dying of AIDS in Indonesia. Or the US is responsible for Mexico. Seperate nation states, seperate governments.


Australia is responsible to an extent for what happens in Indonesia and we give extensive aid and support to the people of that nation. We gave 1 Billion in aids to Indonesia following And the Solomon Islands. And Papua New Guinea. And so on.

We don't do it as well as we should and we deserve no particular praise for it. It's our responsibility.

It always interests me that wherever I go, I can find citizens of indolent and wealthy EU nation-states racing to condemn the Great Satan for all of the worlds ills. It seems to be some kind of sport.

However, when somebody raises the dire plight of say, oh I don't know, people with AIDS in Serbia it's entirely different. These self same appointed European moral commentators can say nothing better than "oh Serbia is an independent nation state and we can't interfere. They're poor."

How convenient.

MtD

Offline Central79

  • Member
  • Posts: 527
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 06:59:45 PM »
This thread is NOT about the current health care in Europe, the US, Austriala, etc. 

This is about ONE MAN'S STRUGGLE.  So quit the pissing contest and think about how you might direct your misguided energies into supporting him.

OK - this is totally right. I'm sorry this degenerated into a political thing. Being without decent healthcare, regardless of where you are definately sucks. I'm sorry I swallowed the bait about Europe. Everbody deserves decent healthcare, and everybody has an opinon on how that's best provided.

I hope that Serbia moves towards a place where nobody with HIV is having to stop treatment due to scarcity of supply. I hope that you are dealing with the uncertainty you face better than I ever could.

Matt.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline Elizabeth

  • Member
  • Posts: 62
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 07:07:52 PM »
In case I seem harsh.....this was Serb's post....much as his PM was to many of us I imagine.  If anyone can read tbis and it does not touch their heart, then the only thing I could surmise is that they are dead. 

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=9768.0



Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Lisa

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,240
  • Formerly known as sweetieweasel/Joined Nov. 2004
    • http://www.myspace.com/lisanowak58
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 07:11:44 PM »
I am truly in sorrow for the severe injustices that you must continue to suffer. I can easily see that it is a weary load.
 I would it were, that other humans wouldn't treat us as material thingies.....or less than human. This shit can seriously mess with yer Ying.

I also wonder if you are having thoughts about educating the very people we are speaking about. I think you could be a leader, and a powerful advocate for the many people in your country that share this disease. I believe that this is going to bring a burden of it's own, when I go showing up to the world at large, but 'whoops I did it again' comes to mind. I find it quite liberating to be completely open, and straightforward about where I'm comin' from.

   I understand that allowing anyone where you live to know the truth about you, and the judgement you believe will subsequently follow the sneered judgement period.

    How sad for all of us.
                 :'(
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2007, 10:14:21 PM »
Not really reasonable to lump us all together as "Europeans" as Europe is not one state, like the US or indeed Australia - and waiting times in the US certainly vary considerably state-by-state, with a number of people dying on North Carolina's ADAP waiting list recently. It's reasonable to expect a greater variation across European nations.



Unless I'm VERY mistaken, that was South Carolina, not North Carolina.  Ask anybody from NC and I think you'll find that the two states, while adjacent, are really not similar at all. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline twofires

  • Member
  • Posts: 345
    • Artists Farm
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2007, 10:42:06 PM »
it was indeed south carolina
Who was it wrote; Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up?
-Roger Waters

Offline SASA39

  • Member
  • Posts: 690
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2007, 03:57:17 AM »
Oh yes , I forgot to tell this :

Until three years ago there was a refunding period for drugs overhere meaning :

If you wanna be cured you have to pay ~ 35000 euro ~ 42000 dollars at your first year , and then after 12 months that money would be given to you by social insurance , but always with a loss due to a inflation.

And if you did not have the money..............lots of previous patients have sold their houses to be cured for the first year.......................and believe me it is true also.................

Now you know why I`m so down with emotions....................

And Lisa I would not be a leader because of the sake of my children and wife.Stigma overhere is enormous.

There was a man Ivan Radojicich who was attempting something like that but seeing what is happening ( his little daughter although she is - , was enforced to give a blood test for a 4 times...............by other parents in a kindergarten),he had to stand off the fight and now he only lead an radio emission on miner local radio at Thursday from 2-4 AM ...........................Al
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline cjc

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,011
  • Sweet Girl
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2007, 08:50:18 AM »
I am sorry that healthcare is so poor where you are. The(very real) fear of stigmata is perhaps worldwide, maybe more so in other countries than the US. I read the things people like you post and it makes me realize just how blessed I am to live here and receive the healthcare that I do. I do not disclose my status where I am, in rural NC for fear that my family and  4 YO son would be ostracized. I feel he would be put out of preschool. I cannot volunteer at his preschool even though I want to.  Thanks for making me realize just how fortunate I am. I hope that your situation improves.  Cristy   

Offline SASA39

  • Member
  • Posts: 690
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2007, 09:41:03 AM »
Yes and I have forgot one more thing :

There is NO gracefull death for us in Serbia because in a two-million city of Belgrade there is a shortage of intensive health care bed departments due to a wasted social funds.

And that kind of beds with lung-heart machine or oxygen are always reserved for the people with cardiac diseases , or a stroke , or cancer , or for some local  (or state) politician..............we are at the clear end of a line.......................................Al
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline rick21007

  • Member
  • Posts: 286
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2007, 12:13:08 PM »
Al----my heart really does go out to you, my friend.  I know that you do not exaggerate the conditions in a country that has only known suffering for many years now---even in other Eastern European countries where people are better off it is not good compared to what we have.  (My husband graduated from University of Bucharest Medical School).  One thing we had made the decision to do is to adopt children together when he has finished his residency here in the US.  As we are both Slavic we decided we wanted to bring children from Eastern Europe, perhaps that will be from Serbia if it is possible. This will not alleviate your suffering perhaps but at least you will know that there are people here who care enough to do something, even in a small way. I can say from first hand experience that only if you have the money to pay under the table can you even receive what you need minimally from the government.  We have no clue here about a society that operates in this fashion.

Take care, Al.  It is amazing to see that you are holding on.  I am glad you are writing on the forums and letting us know these things as well as how you are doing.

Rick

Offline Ihavehope

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Yes, I'm a cry baby, AND WHAT?
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2007, 12:23:37 PM »
This is one of the hundred reasons why so many people wish to come to this country. Many Americans, not just conservatives, don't realize how BAD many people have it in poor nations.
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline alisenjafi

  • Member
  • Posts: 811
  • They say HIV comes from monkeys!
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2007, 12:08:04 PM »
Matt Mee while this doesn't help the original thread I am thinking much the same as mtd. The least thing is Bono could have Hoover paint one of their vacuums red, or a red play station, or red toilet paper even!
Being Bi as in having both a Euro pasport and an American one I can say this with both feet in the pond.
A better way of looking at is the first world should be responsible for HIV in all corners of the globe.

After all many are just as happy to sleep with a Serb as Kenyan. It's a social obligation.
"You shut your mouth
how can you say
I go about things the wrong way
I am human and I need to be loved
just like everybody else does"
The Smiths

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,516
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Ungracefull death
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2007, 01:03:09 PM »
Wait?  Are we comparing health care systems in Eastern Europe with "Old Europe?

Are you guys serious?  Eastern Europe's GDP is quite low.  In fact, Bulgaria is almost like Turkey.  This is a dumb conversation.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

 


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