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Author Topic: Very confused!  (Read 16836 times)

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Offline ACinKC

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2007, 09:56:53 AM »
So wait one more month and test for your own piece of mind.  Thats what it comes down to doesnt it, your own sanity.  You are ONE month away from a 6 month test.  You cannot change anything between now and then so just wait it out.

In my opinion you had no risk.  Let me ask you, will you be 100% satisfied if in one month you test negative again?
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2007, 11:37:56 AM »
Well if i am being truely honest i told myself before the 3 months test that i would let this whole thing go if i was negative. 1 day later and i found out about the 6 months window period. I do honestly think tho..in fact im 100% sure that a 6 month test would in my mind be conclusive. Can i ask you a question tho..The white blood cell count. Is my doctor right in saying that if that was acute hiv i was experiencing it would be abnormal or low? Many thanks

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2007, 11:41:20 AM »
Does it matter?  One month till test time.  What can you personally do to change the results within that one month time frame you have left?  Answer: Nothing, if its there it's there, if its not its not.  worrying about your white blood cells will not change that fact.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2007, 04:27:08 PM »
Hi again.

If a person was experiencing acute hiv would they have a high white blood count or a low white blood count and also after acute hiv does your blood count stay different or would it return to normal.

Many thanks.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2007, 06:37:05 PM »
Most of the time you WBC and CBC stays within normal limits.

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2007, 06:47:47 PM »
Would you advise on me changing doctor as he told me that my wbc would be either high or low i cant remember which if indeed i was experiencing acute hiv..?

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2007, 07:06:38 PM »
i dont no if this makes a difference but he said i had all the blood tests to see if there were any abnormality's in my blood including full blood count etc just to proove that there was nothing wrong with me. When i recievied my negative results and he said that my wbc was in his words "boringly normal" i felt a lot better until i saw on other websites that testing at 6 months is 100%. When i said this to my doctor he told me exactly the same as to what you have told me and then on another visit he told me 6 months to be 110% and they test people with needle pricks out to 6 months but he still did not reccomend it. Any advise that i can get now from you guys is extremely helpful would you reccomend a final test at 6 month mark just to put an end to this?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2007, 08:06:49 PM »
No, you don't need further testing.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2007, 08:47:23 AM »
Here's your old thread. Keep your entries here. I have deleted the other new thread you just started before anyone responds there.

Re-enter your latest question here.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 08:49:02 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2007, 10:40:30 AM »
ok, im sorry about that.

I decided to take another ELISA test at the 6 month mark as i learned that 95% will be poz by 3 months and everyone will be poz by 6 months. I knew it was the only thing that was going to ease my anxiety. It was negative. However, i then realised that i took it 7 days short of the 6 month mark!! I find my anxiety creaping back. My question is would a negative test change in 7 days or do they just say 6 months because it makes more sence then saying 5 months and 3 weeks?! Many thanks.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2007, 10:43:04 AM »
Seek out the help of a mental health professional for your worries. There is nothing else we can do for you on this forum. You are conclusively NEGATIVE.

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2007, 10:59:25 AM »
i did see someone but she didnt help because she refused to talk about anything to do with hiv all she was doing was talking about general life but theres nothing else wrong with me so i stopped going. Thats when i went back to my doc who said to me i dont need another test and i never did need to test. But he also said when i asked him that statiscally 95% will be poz by 3 months so for my own self of mind i had to get another test..there was nobody who could tell me otherwise. But for me this is a very important question that i need answered and i would really appreciate a real genuine answer. If the answer is yes 5 months and 3 weeks could change in the final weel i will get another test if its no then i can accept that but i really do need to no. Many thanks

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2007, 11:18:00 AM »
What part don't you understand? If you would have had a risk, 13 weeks is conclusive, not, 14,15,16 weeks. 13 weeks is conclusive. NOT 6 MONTHS. You are conclusive, end of subject. Move on.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2007, 11:18:10 AM »
A test result at 13 weeks is 99.9% accurate. And I really don't want to get into a comparison of statistical sources about that, so don't bother.

The difference of a few days would make absolutely no difference in the reliability of your test result at 6 months.  

As for your experience with a therapist, I will only say that if she wanted to discuss other matters than HIV that isn't surprising. You maybe obsessing about HIV but in my experience that is often a cover for other issues. Of course, she's not the only therapist in the world. I suggest considering getting to someone else who can help you with the emotional aspects of whatever is going on.

You are HIV negative. HIV is not the issue. I don't know if you are willing to accept that.

We've done whatever we can do for you here. Consider yourself warned. If you persist with this you're going to get banned.
Andy Velez

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2007, 11:27:20 AM »
ok im sorry i really am..i dunno what im gonna do but i will stop posting on this site.

Thank you for your help..i really mean that.

Offline very worried!

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2007, 03:15:26 PM »
Hello again.

Andy,

You told me that you beleive that in many cases you have seen hiv as a cover to other things that are going on in peoples lives. I believe this may be true in my case as i have many issues going on that i should have sorted out years ago. Fact is i accepted that most of my "symptoms" such as ulcers came on when i knew or what i thought acute hiv symptoms were. I accept that was way to ironic to be hiv. The thing that is holding me back is that i very very rarely get ill, i maybe get the odd cold now and again. However, when i returned from holiday i had a throat infection and a very mild rash on my back that i noticed way before i even knew about acute hiv. THIS IS WHAT IS HOLDING ME BACK. I cant get on with my life until i have these "symptoms" justified. I no you are not a doctor but do you think it is possible that my throat infection was due to the sudden weather change since i was in a very hot country drinking and smoking and then returned to freezing cold? My throat infection was a different kind also. It didnt hurt to swallow or ear or anything and it only mainly was irritating at night. Has anyone experienced this before? I can aslo see my anxiety creaping back after i realised i took my 6 month test 1 weeks early. Andy or Ann, are you absolutly certain that 1 weel would not make a difference in producing detectable antibodies? Like i said before..it is the not knowing that is holding me back as i keep on getting told different infromation by different people. Thank you for reading.

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Very confused!
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2007, 03:24:21 PM »
I do not know why you are focused on HIV.

Gingivostomatitis
Kawasaki disease
Leukemia
Lupus
Syphilis
Tuberculosis


Are just a FEW of the diseases you could have that symptoms are related to yours.  Start focusing on what you DONT have.  HIV is something you DONT have.  Now go rule out the other just as serious diseases.  Your throat infection could be a thousand different things all by itself. 

You didnt have a risk.  Go talk to the Dr.

Edited to add your 12 week test is conclusively reliable to you!  You didnt have a risk anyway.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 03:27:15 PM by ACinKC »
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Very confused!
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2007, 03:30:21 PM »
very,

Enough is enough.

You didn't have a risk.

You tested conclusively hiv negative.

You don't have hiv.

I'm giving you a second time out, this time for eight weeks, which is 56 days. Use this time to get yourself into counseling, if you cannot bring yourself to accept your no-risk, conclusive-negative situation.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline confused.123

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Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2009, 06:48:38 PM »
Hi there. Before i begin i would just like to say that this website seems like the most reliable source of information that i have found after browsing the internet for weeks. Its amazing that you take the time out of your lives to help worriers like myself.

Anyway, let me begin. I had a few risky encounters with a girl who is actually a friend of mine. We engaged in many sexual acts and then very stupidly began to have unprotected vaginal sex. The sex only lasted a couple of minutes and it was sort of on off until we both realized how silly we were being. I have never done anything like this before. After she had gone home i started asking her many questions about her sexual history and she assured me that she was OK. However, i must of freaked her out because a day later she went to get tested. Wherever she went they obviously didn't tell her much information because she wasn't aware of the window period for HIV. To cut a long story short she told me she was negative. I knew i still had to test because you can never rely on what people tell you. My main concern was if i caught something then i could pass it on to somebody else and wasn't just a fear of the virus. My doctor told me i had a very low risk for such a short period of unprotected sex but if i would like to test he would do it for me. He told me to wait 3 months to be sure. When i questioned him on the window period he told me the tests for HIV are very sensitive and at 3 months you can be sure. However, when i questioned him further he did admit that in the healthcare setting they still test out to 6 months. I finally built up the courage to get tested 5 months post exposure. It was negative. My question to you is, why for instance on the cdc website amongst many, many other websites do they say it can take up to 6 months? Why do they still test out to 6 months in the healthcare setting? Why do they still say its 97% who are positive by 3 months but to be sure you must test out to 6 and many STD clinics still test out to 6 months? I am asking these questions not because i am sitting here going mad in fear but more so i can be confident that i am truly negative and am safe to continue on with my sex life without the worry of my past experience. Many thanks for reading this, look forward to hearing from you.

By the way, the tests i took were ELISA and p24. Both negative.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2009, 07:49:51 PM »
3 months is conclusive.

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2009, 06:58:51 AM »
I would appreciate it if you could explain why some people still insist on a 6 month window period. I have been told that its 97% at 3 months and everyone by 6 months?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2009, 07:31:10 AM »
They don't and haven't since 2004.

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2009, 07:45:41 AM »
I haven't really been posting excessively i am just trying to find out something about the window period which is bothering me. I had unprotected vaginal sex with a women and tested negative 5 months post exposure. Like i said i am not sitting here driving myself mad over possible symptoms or anything like that i just want to find out why you are so sure of a 3 month conclusive test when there are still many people out there who say 6 months is conclusive plus in the healthcare setting they still test out to 6 months. If somebody could answer my question i would really appreciate it. Many thanks.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2009, 07:47:55 AM »
Look at the first reply you were given and move on.

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2009, 08:18:55 AM »
I'm sorry i am not trying to annoy you in any way but i am just trying to find out why some people still insist on saying 6 months if you want to be 100% sure?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2009, 08:25:33 AM »
Ignorance ...

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2009, 09:43:56 AM »
With the increased sensitivity of all generations of tests, the CDC has for sometime recommended 3 months for testing for a reliable result.

The exceptions for testing out to 6 months are when extensive IV drug use is involved, a severely compromised immune system due to organ transplant or a severe illness such as cancer.

Otherwise 3 months is sufficient and reliable. Period.
Andy Velez

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2009, 09:47:16 AM »
How long after a possible exposure should I wait to get tested for HIV?

Most HIV tests are antibody tests that measure the antibodies your body makes against HIV. It can take some time for the immune system to produce enough antibodies for the antibody test to detect, and this time period can vary from person to person. This time period is commonly referred to as the “window period.” Most people will develop detectable antibodies within 2 to 8 weeks (the average is 25 days). Even so, there is a chance that some individuals will take longer to develop detectable antibodies. Therefore, if the initial negative HIV test was conducted within the first 3 months after possible exposure, repeat testing should be considered >3 months after the exposure occurred to account for the possibility of a false-negative result. Ninety-seven percent of persons will develop antibodies in the first 3 months following the time of their infection. In very rare cases, it can take up to 6 months to develop antibodies to HIV.

This was updated in 2007 from the cdc. I am not doubting for one second what anyone here tells me about the window period i am just confused as to how they come up with 97% by 3 months and also why they continue to test out to 6 months in the healthcare setting?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2009, 10:29:29 AM »

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2009, 10:43:34 AM »
We've answered your question. You don't seem to be listening. Instead you are just coming up with more "yah, but" responses.

You don't have to believe what we say although you've been given totally accurate responses. You aren't going to hear anything different from us now. But I can tell you that if you keep coming back with more of your doubts, you are going to earn yourself a 28 day time out here in short order.

You are HIV negative. Get on with your life.
Andy Velez

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2009, 09:15:27 PM »
I appreciate all your replies. Can i ask, has the window period changed to 3 months because of the tests being more sensitive or have they just realized that it doesn't take that long in almost everyone?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2009, 09:27:09 PM »
Better tests.

Offline Ann

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2009, 07:37:51 AM »
con,

It's a combination of the two. Most people will seroconvert and test positive - even on older tests - by six weeks, with the average time to seroconversion being only 22 days. The window exists at three months to catch the rare person who take a little longer than six weeks. Combine the better tests with a couple decades of testing experience, and we know three months is enough.

You don't have hiv. Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse from now on, correctly and consistently, and you will continue to avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2009, 07:46:40 AM »
Thank you very much.

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2009, 06:18:49 PM »
Hi again,

Im sorry to keep on posting i just cant seem to get my head around this window period. Everywhere i look on the internet says 3 months is normal for the most of the population and it is rare for somebody to take up to 6 months to develop detectable antibodies yet at the same time if you look at one of Dr Becky Kuhns videos for instance  she says 6 months is the window period. Its just very confusing because there are so many mixed opinions everywhere. I can accept that 3 months is normal for most people but i want to be 100% sure that i am negative so i can be confident of being with other sexual partners.

Offline anniebc

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2009, 07:01:17 PM »
We don't know what else to tell you, you are not listening to the advise and information you have been given by the experts here..please read this, remember it and MOVE ON.

"Only a small group of people seroconvert after the 13 week window period, this group includes those who are receiving immuno-suppressive therapy after transplant procedures, cancer patients who are receiving chemotherapy and long term injecting drug users".

One more post about this and you will be given a Time Out....please consider this a warning.

Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2009, 02:05:29 PM »
I am taking on board everything you are saying and i really do not want a time out. But the thing is when i look at the CDC official website, yes, they do say 12 weeks is normal for most of the population. But they also say 97% of people will seroconvert by 12 weeks. So where do they get this information and why don't they change it to a more accurate statement? After all, a lot of people who are worried about HIV infection will turn to the CDC for valuable advice and when they say 97% by 12 weeks people are still going to worry, don't you agree? Like i said before, i am not coming on here worrying needlessly about possible symptoms or asking loads of different questions, i just want to be sure that i really am HIV negative so i can continue with my life with that peace of mind.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2009, 02:09:20 PM »
CDC uses 3 months. No I don't agree because most people understand after they have been told ONCE.

Offline Ann

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2009, 02:19:49 PM »
Confused,

You tested negative at five months past your unprotected incident. YOU DO NOT HAVE HIV!!! You can test out to six months if you like, but your result is not going to change.

You will NOT be permitted to use this website to fret over your hiv status and the outdated six month window. YOU DO NOT HAVE HIV!!!

Keep posting over this conclusive result and you'll be given a time out.

Please consider yourself warned for the last time!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2009, 12:07:37 PM »
I just read the uk hiv testing guidelines updated in 2008 and it states that 3 months is conclusive so i guess you were right. A lot of people seem very confident in the 3 month window period and i guess i ought to start believing people. Its just so hard when there is a lot of other information out there on the internet.

Offline confused.123

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2009, 10:58:05 AM »
Can i just ask a quick question about the p24 test. Why is it only accurate after a few weeks. I mean, if somebody didn't seroconvert until 8 weeks then would the p24 work at 7 weeks?

Offline Ann

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2009, 11:10:55 AM »
Con,

The p24 antigen is only present in the very beginning of infection. It's not going to be around at week seven, because as you have been repeatedly told, most people seroconvert and test positive WAY before then. Even if there aren't enough antibodies present to detect by week three or so when the p24 disappears, it still disappears.

You are obviously still obsessing about and doubting your CONCLUSIVE negative result, so I'm giving you that time out you've been repeatedly warned about. Please use this time to seek professional counseling so you can get to the bottom of this obsession. Do not attempt to create a new account to get around your time out because if you do, you will be permanently banned.

YOU DO NOT HAVE HIV!

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2009, 11:14:03 AM »
No. The P24 is only useful during a short period of time at approximately 1-3 weeks after infection has taken place. Levels of P24 antigen increase significantly during that time and BEFORE HIV antibodies are produced. About 2-8 weeks after exposure, antibodies to HIV are produced and remain detectable in response to the infection, making the HIV antibody test the most useful means of diagnosing HIV status.

However, this test is not ordered as frequently as it once was since tests that can detect HIV RNA early in infections (HIV viral load) have become more widely available. Tests for HIV antibody continue to be the most commonly used for determining HIV status.  

With an P24, a negative result may mean that you are not infected with HIV or that the level of p24 is below the detectable limits of the test. In situations where there has been the possibility of exposure to HIV, screening with a different test, such as the HIV antibody test, is recommended.

Andy Velez

Offline very worried!

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2009, 05:59:57 AM »
Hi again.

Just to let you no i am thinking of testing in 3 months following a couple more possible exposures even tho you may tell me that i was not at risk but for my state of mind i no i will have to test.

I was with a girl a few weeks ago who wanted to have unprotected sex. I insisted that we go out and buy some condoms and that is exactly what we did. However, i don't no if this is possible but i pulled out because we both agreed that something didn't feel right. I have a feeling i put the condom on the wrong way but i don't no if this is possible!? When i felt the top of the condom the flappy bit seemed to be very small which worried me. However, i am sure the condom did not break because i made a point of checking. What worried me even more is that i noticed i had some blood on my groin area and around my hands. It was very strange because she wasn't actually on her period. We continued to have sex with different condoms and all of it was protected with no breaks but i spotted blood on the condom.

The other situation happened a few days ago. I received oral sex from a girl. However during the oral sex i felt her teeth really digging into my penis and when i looked after i saw a couple of saws. I no you guys don't see oral sex as a risk but this is a slightly different situation. What are your views?

Thanks for reading.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2009, 06:08:36 AM »
very worried!, DO NOT POST IN ANY OTHER THREAD THAN YOUR OWN.

Offline very worried!

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2009, 06:18:06 AM »
This is my thread...

Offline very worried!

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2009, 06:19:51 AM »
I have a different username because i forgot my password..

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2009, 06:22:38 AM »
Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.


Offline very worried!

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Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2009, 06:53:40 AM »
But all i was doing was asking you a question about an encounter which has worried me. This is a different encounter to the one where i have already tested negative. I don't see the problem with that, i thought thats what this forum is for?

Offline RapidRod

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  • Posts: 15,288
Re: Testing out to 5 months.
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2009, 06:56:38 AM »
You can''t put a condom on wrong and you don't need to come here and post everytime you go have a sexual experience.

 


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