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Author Topic: Political Correctness  (Read 3403 times)

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Offline NightmareHall

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  • Out for a Sunday drive to Zeta Reticuli
Political Correctness
« on: November 29, 2006, 10:45:50 AM »
*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 11:01:33 AM by NightmareHall »

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2006, 10:53:30 AM »
Seems to me as if you have very good instincts,  Night.

Political correctness is fascistic. Any kernel of good intentions that may have been a part of it way back when has long since been perverted and abused in an atmosphere that reeks of self righteousness. It played a significant role in the breakdown of ACT UP in specific and HIV activism in general.

Giving a hug at the right moment when your instinct tells you to do it sounds on the mark to me. Hug away!

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline Lwood

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2006, 11:49:10 AM »
Gallows Humor  ???  Crusty Humorous Intelligent Gay Guys  !!!!!   Im shocked.

Do we even want to think about what would go down If I showed up at a PoZ support group?

I dont suppose that newsletter is still around anywhere , possibly in an online version..

as for political correctness, well this pretty much is my version of it... what To Wear To A Clinic Visit

« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 11:53:35 AM by Lwood »
"Fortunately, I Keep My T Cells Numbered For Just Such An Emergency"
  -Either Foghorn Leghorn or Johnny Cash

Offline NightmareHall

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2006, 11:54:52 AM »
*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 11:01:10 AM by NightmareHall »

Offline Ann

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2006, 12:17:06 PM »
Quote
"I used up all my sicks days, so I called in dead"

:D Love it! I like the way you think, Nightmare.

You don't live on Elm Street by chance? Just askin...

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline NightmareHall

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  • Out for a Sunday drive to Zeta Reticuli
Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2006, 12:25:20 PM »
*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 11:00:22 AM by NightmareHall »

Offline wellington

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2006, 01:31:19 PM »
I'm a huge Bill Maher fan. 'nuf said.

Offline Terry

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  • 7/13/82 Infected
Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2006, 01:57:15 PM »

April 1967 I packed up my car and left Boston/Dorchester headed for California.

No more Punch Bowl, Jacques or Phil Boyne's place (Weathering Heights?) where Phyllis Diller got her start in comedy. No more trips to P-town on the single engine airplane that had 13 seats with no co-pilot. No more closing the season with the last song being sung ďFor all We Know We May Never Meet AgainĒ. No more watching some guy in Popeís drag, (Funniest thing I ever seen in my life.) Walking into the water, blessing the ocean waters at the opening of the summer season. No more watching the sunset from my room at the White Wing Hotel, view of the ocean, listening to a bag-piper playing some exotic love song. No more female impersonators, such as Arthur Blake, dressed in a mans dress suit, doing Carmen Miranda with just a boa and a hat made of plastic fruit on his head. No more driving to the sand dunes in the morning and having people (Studs, maybe you were one of them) just jump into the car to catch a ride to the beach and stopping on the way back at the popular restaurant (Also owned by Phil and the Mafia) for food and a free drag show. Oh to be young again and at P-Town. Didnít hurt any that I started going there when I was under age. And back then I was 6í/bl/bl. 160lbs. Swimmers body. Now Iím 5í11Ē, bald, 140 lbs. and canít even describe this body.  :'( Bones,  ::)  LOL!

Dam, first time Iíve been home sick in forty years. What wonderful memories! Being PC back then was saying F**k-em if they donít like it.  ;D

Nope, gave it all up for sunny California and the beach boys. But thanks for the walk down memory lane.  :'(

Offline NightmareHall

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 03:23:42 PM »
*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 10:59:42 AM by NightmareHall »

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2006, 04:42:13 PM »
In my unasked for opinion, political correctness is for weak control freaks who lack a sense of control in their own lives. The fact that is also humourless speaks volumes for those afflicted by it. I just can't take extremists seriously.

Daniel

MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline megasept

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  • Steven here...
PC: popcorn in a can past it's expiration date
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2006, 04:58:42 PM »
Hey, Nightmare. I am a young guy who fought against Anita Bryant and the Briggs Initiative; a real thought police attempt (and a sign of our shared youth).

PC developed three decades ago in "sophisticated" university towns, out of a the left (influenced by feminism)...The best way to find it is where it's existence is denied; "There's no such thing as PC." Whether it was (gay) rightwringer Randy Shilts making it impossible for three of us to chat over a coffee (gasp: I was a socialist), or "radicals" telling me "That's an incorrect thought formulation" when they simply could have said "You're wrong", I am more than done with all that crap. My own feeling is that we developed from a shared politics of righting injustice to an individual-based obsession with victimhood. Victorian and Pollyannaish. I am more concerned about people being killed than offended. And what people do is a hundred times more important than words they say.

I do remember Diseased Pariah news, and occasionally give myself just such a moniker when dealing with the HIVphobic. Good to have you aboard. Truth with a dash of humor will set thee free... 8) -megasept
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 12:43:39 PM by megasept »

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2006, 06:41:57 PM »
Maybe it's my 70's upbringing but I get uneasy when the pejorative PC is brought up.   I've always thought the term was coined by the same people who thought of "right to life" and "special interests" and "AIDS is god's punishment" so it holds no validity for me. 

If I'm being PC when I challenge someone who uses words like "cunt, nigger, kike, spic, etc." then so be it.  If my dislike of capitalism is PC then I'm PC.  If it's PC when I cringe upon hearing someone refer to a grown woman as a girl (unless the speaker is so old he/she can possibly consider the woman that young) I'm PC.   If being an atheist makes me PC I gladly embrace the term. 

In my youth I too participated in protests against Anita Bryant and her ilk because she spread ignorance and hatred in the name of religion.  Call me PC.  I'd do it again.

All my life I've assiduously avoided gay meccas like P'town and the like.  I prefer diversity (or, better yet, being left alone).  One visit to Christopher Street or the Castro is enough.  Besides, New Orleans is a gay mecca itself (albeit possibly not on the same scale as others) so I can mingle with a predominantly gay crowd for 15 minutes or so before getting bored.  I do love San Francisco but frankly enter few gay establishments on my rare trips there.  I prefer to rent a bicycle and see how steep a hill I can descend before the bike flips over...

But I digress, as usual.

Boo

String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

SFscruff

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2006, 07:50:22 PM »
Not that I'm bragging or anything, but I had copies of all the Diseased Pariah Newses.  Well, until I lent them to a friend a few years ago and his apartment building caught on fire and they all went up in the flames.  I'm absolutely serious.  They were on his coffee table and poof - gone.  When he called to tell me about the fire, I was all, "My D.P.Ns!  Did you save the f-ing D.N.Ss!"  The a-hole got is stupid cat (yeah, some companion animal for the disabled that creature turned out to be) out of the burning building, but the real treasures were roasted.  I still break into spontaneous laughter at the 'Dressing Right for the Emergency Room' article.  And can anybody else remember the soft porn shots with hot guys seductively showing their catheter ports?  Woof!  And that Crafts demo showing how to make collage placemats out of the clipped newspaper obituaries of former tricks.  Really wrong and terrible, bad, terrible, nasty, evil, bad, evil, bad....

And Boo, I live in the Castro, what's wrong with the Castro?  Slamming the Castro is locally called a 'Swish Slur!'  And we call anybody who doesn't live in the Castro, a person living in a 'G.U.A.' that's acrimonious for Geographically Undesirable Area.  Did everybody get that last bon mot!  If not, you're not living in the Castro!  And who can forget the year during Gay Pride week when the hottest t-shirt proclaimed, "Welcome to S.F. -- This Ride Is Closed."  What's wrong with the Castro?  The latest P.C. HIV prevention idiocy from the SF Dept. of Public Health shows a pic of a woman with the caption, 'She Positive!'  It's supposed to be an effort to reach out and get certain high risk populations to disclose their serostatus before having sex.  Of course, any number of vile nasty Castro queens are now saying, 'She Positive' at the most inappropriate times.  What's wrong with the Castro?  We call the Memorial Quilt, 'The Rug' and the Memorial Grove, 'The Groove.'  Now, that's just about as incorrect as it can get.  What isn't wrong with the Castro?

SF SCRUFF

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2006, 08:31:03 PM »
And Boo, I live in the Castro, what's wrong with the Castro?  Slamming the Castro is locally called a 'Swish Slur!'  And we call anybody who doesn't live in the Castro, a person living in a 'G.U.A.' that's acrimonious for Geographically Undesirable Area.  Did everybody get that last bon mot! 

Who slammed the Castro?  Are you denying it's a gay mecca/ghetto?  Much of the French Quarter in New Orleans is a gay ghetto and that's fine with me.  Because we're homos doesn't mean we share anything else in common.  I prefer a variety of people wherever I am.   Life is too parochial and stifling if one's company isn't sufficiently diverse.   I go into the FQ because I love the area but in SF there are far more interesting places to go than the Castro.

Acrimonious acronym... hmm.

Boo

P.S. The Diseased Pariah News sounds like a ton of laughs.  Gallows humor is one of my favorite types.  I hope some library somewhere has seen fit to digitize the collection and put it on the net.
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2006, 08:35:09 PM »
Huzzah for Nightmare!

I could not agree more. 

I think that people forget what "free thinking" means.

Gallows humor has been nothing but a crutch for me throught my infection, but without it... I wouldn't have anything to laugh at.  And when I laugh at HIV, it makes me feel like I can handle it.  Being scared of it would paralyze me.

My friends and I have made some really horrible jokes about it... From calling it the Hivee or the Whoopsee-dAIDSies... or making a sign that reads "Crack Kills AIDS Dead" for my Black Valentine's party... I think that black humor has really helped me get through it.  Calling it by a prettier or more sensitive name doesn't change the fact that HIV is neither serious nor pretty. 

And I am very sorry that I missed Diseased Pariah news... oh God, am I sorry that I missed that.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Terry

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  • 7/13/82 Infected
Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2006, 09:09:52 PM »
 ;D

SF SCRUFF,

I love the picture that hangs in the Twin Peaks Bar with the caption “No crown No Glory.” I’ve had many Irish Coffees while people watching in that bar. It was the first gay bar EVER in this country to have windows to the outside. (Most gay people today wouldn’t remember when gay bars only had entrances through a rear door.) Then we might walk around the corner to the little greasy spoon restaurant. Or down the street to the oriental restaurant next to the elephant walk. I love San Francisco and all the Bay Area. There's no other place in the world like it. I use to live out by the Cliff House on Seal Rock Drive. Spent many wonderful nights/mornings walking Ocean beach in the fog. I’ll be driving down to the city in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to the aromas.
 ::) ::) ::)
NightmareHal, OMG. You mentioned places I‘ve completely forgotten about. And I need to correct myself, I think it was 12 Carver (Sawdust on the floor) where Phyllis Diller first started out as a comedian. Oh and one of my friends back then, his name, Ken Hicks (long time now deceased) a nephew of Louise Day Hicks the Boston School Superintendent. Back then, being gay was so hush, hush. Somehow I think I liked it that way better. Sorry for the babble, but you got the old gray matter thinking with your post.

POLITICALLY CORRECT:
He does not "GET LOST ALL THE TIME" - He "INVESTIGATES ALTERNATIVE DESTINATIONS."  ???



SFscruff

  • Guest
Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2006, 09:51:29 PM »
Boo, of course I'm denying the Castro is a gay ghetto, it's a Queer Corral!  I'm one of those homos who identify themselves as 'Queer' or 'Fagolian.'  Really not P.C., but I often ask gloomy 'gay' men what 'gay' means, it means happy and full of verve.  And until all 'gay' men are acting 'happy and vervey' then they're not really 'gay' in my reckoning after all.  Darin  PS I'm an atheist too, don't tell my mom.

Offline aztecan

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  • 29 years positive, 56 years a pain in the butt
Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2006, 10:58:47 PM »
Terry,
I loved the Twin Peaks. For that matter, the Elephant Walk. Now that you mention it, the Liberty Baths have a special place in my heart.  ::) Oh, and the Jaguar Bookstore.

I lived in L.A., but visited S.F. often.

Oh lordy, now you've opened the floodgates. The Blue Nun, a delightful greasy spoon in L.A. Fatburger - when they really were (nothing like hamburgers fried in bacon grease).

Another L.A. fun spot was The Stud, (great patio), The Pits (had its own jail cell and shackles  ;D).

I also remember when no bars had front entrances, nor windows. Nobody was supposed to be able to see in or see who came and went. It was a lot more hush hush.  I have to agree, I kind of miss it too.

Those also were the days of delightful irreverence, when P.C. hadn't been invented. Neither had smoking bans. I still remember being able to drink a beer while driving down the street - legally. Try doing that today.

I  remember a friend, Bruce Carcher, who lived in Albuquerque back when I was still young and just beginning to explore gay life.

He was gorgeous. One of those guys who was just too stunning to believe. The reason he came to mind is he also developed KS. He tried to hide it with long-sleeved shirts, but when it spread to his face, he stopped appearing in public. He ended his life one summer day back in the late 80s.

So, now that you've opened the subject of PC, where is that recording of "Vatican Rag" I had stashed somewhere? I have a Catholic Mass to attend.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Terry

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2006, 11:32:00 PM »
 ;D
Oh Mark, but weren't we both/all gorgeous back then?

Donít know bout you, but I still am and always will be. Attitude gets me by at my age now.

There is a certain kind of comfort that comes with being as old as I am and as comfortable as I feel in my own skin.

I won the war with having been diagnosed with HIV/AIDS back in 82. I now have to deal with the complexities and complications of OLD age. Heart disease, colon cancer etc. etc. etc.

Iíll never understand (While myself being a gay man) why todayís young gays are so evil to one another.


Blah, Blah, Blah.

Nice being OLD!



 







Offline aztecan

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  • 29 years positive, 56 years a pain in the butt
Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2006, 08:57:37 AM »
Yep Terry, we were - and still are - beautiful.

I think being happy in our own skin is one of the benefits of being a "seasoned" veteran, so to speak.

I think the young folks have lost something these days. They don't share the same feeling of community we had. It is a shame, really.

We were diagnosed within a few years of one another.

I think one of the greatest joys of my youth was telling convention, and those who preached/practised it, to go stuff themselves.

There were, to be sure, the assimilationists, those who wanted to "be the same" as our straight counterparts.

But it wasn't me. Up until 1975, it was illegal to have gay sex in my home state, although I don't ever remember anyone being prosecuted.

But that set the stage. Flout the law, flaunt our gayness and to hell with the rest.

Ah, I miss those days. The kids today just don't have it.

These days, I just carry on carrying on.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline megasept

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  • Steven here...
For Boo, et. al., RE: Political Correctness
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2006, 01:38:56 PM »
Boo: I liked the tricycle thing; I used to ride a unicycle in SF. Oh yeah, I lived in the Mission, but went to the Badlands in the Castro for my first "gay fuck". I have never worked in a "gay profession", but don't care either way. But now we both digress. I want to share a few thoughts illustrating why I object to PC and "group politics" as it's generally understood.

Objecting to use of the word "nigger" or "cunt" as a choice, and being outspoken about it (as I often am), is taking a stand face-to-face. Banning words is top-down and PC. Four decades back Malcolm X returned from Mecca and decried the use of the term "nigger" among African-Americans, he was light years ahead of Jesse Jackson's recent simplistic comments. The longer you live...well since I am not a proponent of morbidity, I best leave that one alone...

Once I was hired for a machinist job (double disk grinder operator) over a black man (with kids) for a job where he was experienced, and I was open about needing training. The foreman "just couldn't hire a black man...and 'felt bad about it'". Notice he said black not "nigger". Better the reverse and the qualified man had gotten the job---surely a middle-aged black man could live without the love of the "cracker" foreman easier than without money. It's what people do that matters the most.

Being an atheist (as I am) doesn't shut me off from religious people (like my last partner, a Sunni Muslim). Belief does not require intolerance. And tolerance does not block me from occasionally challenging my friends views I found chauvinistic or dogmatic. An open mind is not intolerant. Most of my friends are religious. None of my atheist friends are strident. I don't like any kind of proselytizing.

You'll probably see some sense in the above, but are worried that joining the anti-PC side makes you some pitiful FOX News-addicted white man nostalgic for the "old days" of inequality. I don't sweat it. I'll make my own decisions, even if I am a white man. I will not be branded "oppressor" as man and Caucasian, and "oppressed" as gay. I am an individual, no matter how my culture deals with these elements of my identity or nature in a given decade. I have been misperceived by strangers. I have been jew-baited, white-baited, and especially gay-baited. The first and the latter are "verboten" in PC, the middle one...well that one works.

Here's a little story from ten years back. A gay hiv group (black community-based) invited me (yeah, a white guy) to an impromptu get-together, a "reading" with a young writer. Two guys, a couple, arrived quite late, heard a little, then objected to the artist writing about anything that didn't concern HIV, since...We and he all had HIV and since HIV was killing us, that's all he should write about. Of course these lovers of literature left early after saying their peace. This behavior grew out of PC...it doesn't come from fascist book-burners. Perhaps you'll discover some examples from your own experience, seen in a different light. I reject all such nonsense, and speak up for targets of bigotry on the spot when something like that occurs. I don't like the shutting out of differences. I like a good argument instead, and maybe friendship afterwards. For example, I was protesting with my gay "progressive" (Catholic) trade union friends over the "gays in the military" issue in 1992, and when our signs were being blocked by (Catholic) right-to-lifers, I engaged one of the guys in a discussion that ranged from pedophile priests to family planning. He and i got along quite well, which shocked my comrades, and shocked his entourage. And I never let their banner block my signs. That's my style. I want to engage and share with my "opponents", more than I want protection, even from their bigotry (not accusing these "right-to-lifers" of any such thing).

What should I do about about my handsome young bilingual Mexican gardener (OK, yard service, I'm the gardener) who says "faggot" in front of me? I could fire him. I could lecture him. No, I put my arm on his shoulder and say "You have to know who your clients are" with a wink. In a few weeks he'll get it. For some reason it didn't click. He and I will eventually be friends and he will see another side to "gay."

It is no coincidence that PC has been adopted by corporate America. The upside is "girlie pictures" and talk of "bitches" does not encourage female equality in the workplace, and ought to be prohibited. The downside is some folks cannot distinguish between expression and harassment. Like you I care about society. I just don't want a super-sensitive nanny watching out for me. I can do that for myself. Hope this makes some sense to you...megasept  8)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 02:06:34 PM by megasept »

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2006, 05:11:05 PM »
megasept,

Thanks for the explanation and illustrations.  I understand what you mean but still have conflicting thoughts about using the term PC.  Of course, I also refuse to use impact as a verb and maintain a distinction between your and you're so obviously I'm a linguistic antediluvian.

Quote
The foreman "just couldn't hire a black man...and 'felt bad about it'". Notice he said black not "nigger". Better the reverse and the qualified man had gotten the job---surely a middle-aged black man could live without the love of the "cracker" foreman easier than without money. It's what people do that matters the most. 

It's easy for me to say this but I wouldn't have accepted the job if a new employer had told me that (or I would have found a new job ASAP if I really needed $$).   I've never worked for an overtly racist boss but I did work for the Catholic church, during which time I had to do a lot of rationalizing and soul-searching to keep from quitting. 

Quote
...  I have been misperceived by strangers. I have been jew-baited, white-baited, and especially gay-baited. The first and the latter are "verboten" in PC, the middle one...well that one works.

All three should be verboten as far as I'm concerned.  I hate the term "reverse racism" since racism is racism is racism, regardless of who is being racist.  I no more allow people to white-bait me than I do those who queer-bait me (as an atheist goy I've never been jew-baited) unless I'm quite outnumbered, in which case I get the hell out of there fast.

Let's put it this way -- I'm a 70s feminist whose feminism doesn't go so far as to use the word "wymyn" but I usually use "she/he" or some variant when referring to people in a general sense.    I try to avoid thinking in stereotypes as much as is humanly possible, even to the point of trying to understand gay Republicans (I'm not quite there yet).

Boo
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, ooze, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2006, 06:48:18 PM »
I admit that I try to be PC. I try to be respectful and call people what they want to be called. For example one of my white coworkers documented that he had assessed a "31-year-old mulatto female". It standard procedure to document age, race and sex in our progress notes but I had never seen anyone use mulatto, we use bi-racial. I asked one of my black co-workers "So are we using the term mulatto now?" She said very seriously that we were not and that mulatto came from the work mule, referring to a mixed breed, and was generally considered offensive.

Offline megasept

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Response (Last, I promise) to BOO...Political Correctness IS A MINDSET
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 01:01:59 PM »
Boo: I promise this is my last on the subject and you'll need a full day to read all this. Maybe you can edit for me. lol.

PC is much more than a term, it's a mindset, and a code of conduct.

When people introduce "PC" as the subject of conversation, I probably share your discomfort. I know full well where they are probably headed. What I don't do is deny PC exists, or say I support it; my values are similar to PC's goals, but my social advocacy is more grounded in liberty and dissent than social engineering.

As for taking the job that should clearly have been offered to the Black applicant first, I kind of scratched my head at your comment (even with qualifier) that "you wouldn't have taken the job." It's not like they told me "Here, we're pleased to offer you a position since we didn't feel right hiring that Black man." No, I learned of this two months later. I don't think the Lead Man needed to quit; he should have, and may have, tried to influence the Foreman. I don't think I I needed to quit or refuse work i desperately needed (broke!); I think too much like a trade unionist. I am more of a stay-and-stir-the-shit type. I quit without notice once I had money saved up.

I was surprised you said that you haven't rubbed shoulders with many racists in the workplace. I've worked under racists, with racists, and supervised racists. And their skin colors and backgrounds were all over the map.

You said: "All three should be verboten as far as I'm concerned." I took this out of context. The question really is what we mean by "verboten". Forbidden might imply something broader and looser than prohibition. Etiquitte might cover "verbotten". And I support a more civil, "civil society". I'd like fewer rules and better voluntary behavior. Pie in the sky? Maybe.

I was acquainted with the first of the many Eagle Scouts who "came out" within the Boy Scouts. I admired his courage (He was 17). I don't agree that the Boy Scouts "can't" discriminate. I don't support the many lawsuits against BSA, provided BSA behaves like a private organization. Let the Boy Scouts offend ("no gays"), or be stupid ("no atheists"). We can form our own organizations to combat them.

You write "as an atheist goy I've never been jew-baited". Well I am an atheist, but not "goyim", and it is fitting that a racist would "jew-bait" me, making no distinction among Jews. Thanks to Hitler, this Jew won't ever say he's "not a Jew." 

I've witnessed two events I think flow from PC's effect on 70s politics, and now society as a whole. In the late 70's a feminist organization in SF, WAVPM, Women Against Violence and Pornography in the Media, marched at night through the Tenderloin protesting against porno bookstores and prostitution. I thought they had lost their minds. I was friendly with one of their members. It seemed ironic, especially when the street walkers felt under siege from the protesters. It reminded me of the 19th Century reformers and their Temperance campaigns. To me it signaled feminism making a u-turn towards the Right via a Victorian route.

Now to our time... A few years ago, 99 year-old, real-life unrepentant friend of Adolf Hitler, Leni Riefenstahl (Cinematographer, "Triumph of Will"), was having a commercial show (that means profits went to her; this was no museum) of her photographs of the Nuba (of Africa) in Los Angeles. When I couldn't get any secular or Orthodox Jewish organizations to join us, it became my project to have our own little protest. Three of us, all gay, two black, handed out a satiric leaflet (It had historical info on the back) outside the show, which was actually sponsored be an art gallery, Fahey Klein Gallery more or less run by Jews, smack dab in the middle of an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood. Maybe we were right or maybe we were silly (Hey. She's 99. They're just a bunch of color photographs of Africans. And she claims to be a liberal), but I am glad we did this. We were accused by more than one person of "trying to censor", and (help me here with the English), we were their to "censure". It wasn't even a picket line (Hell, we were just 3 people!) This group of liberals or apolitical types going to the gallery opening were somewhat offended that we would dare have a friendly protest outside an art gallery opening. Something's weird when Americans can't abide a protester, especially when they supposedly shared common values with us ("Equality good. Racism bad. Extermination of Gypies--bad. Hitler bad."). And these were Liberals for the most part, without a redneck in sight. PC seems to have created a very delicate and thin-skinned populace, across the political spectrum. That's my 2 cents, and why I can't support or defend PC.

If all this seems irrelevant, we have only to watch the discussion unfold right here, as to what if any speech, and who if anybody, should be kept off this web board. I am new. I haven't heard anything that would make me strongly favor either extreme here. A little censorship, clear rules fairly applied, and pretty much let things flow as they do seems about right. The PC experience is relevant, if only that it may influence how folks line up on these questions. Its now a part of our culture, not just our speech. Words influence ideas. And ideas actions. Actually Boo, I am sure we agree on a great deal. Our differences might be generational, as you posited. Now, I'll shut up.
-8) megasept
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 01:29:16 PM by megasept »

Offline DanielMark

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 04:16:04 PM »
A Politically Correct Christmas Greeting

Best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most joyous traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, but with respect for the religious persuasion of others who choose to practice their own religion as well as those who choose not to practice a religion at all;

Additionally,

a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions have helped make our society great, without regard to the race, creed, color, religious, or sexual preferences of the wishes.

(Disclaimer: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others and no responsibility for any unintended emotional stress these greetings may bring to those not caught up in the holiday spirit.)

MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline Boo Radley

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Re: Response (Last, I promise) to BOO...Political Correctness IS A MINDSET
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2006, 04:52:34 PM »
megasept,

Sometimes one needs to go into detail to fully cover a topic and I have no problem reading such a post.  I can't see anything I would have omitted.   It took only a few minutes to read but what may take all day is responding... groan.

... As for taking the job that should clearly have been offered to the Black applicant first, I kind of scratched my head at your comment (even with qualifier) that "you wouldn't have taken the job." It's not like they told me "Here, we're pleased to offer you a position since we didn't feel right hiring that Black man." No, I learned of this two months later. I don't think the Lead Man needed to quit; he should have, and may have, tried to influence the Foreman. I don't think I I needed to quit or refuse work i desperately needed (broke!); I think too much like a trade unionist. I am more of a stay-and-stir-the-shit type. I quit without notice once I had money saved up.
Gotcha.  Like I said, it's easy for me to make such a claim but I'm not sure what I would really do in a similar situation.
Quote
I was surprised you said that you haven't rubbed shoulders with many racists in the workplace. I've worked under racists, with racists, and supervised racists. And their skin colors and backgrounds were all over the map.
What I said is I haven't (knowingly) worked under any racist bosses, but most of my work life was spent in an academic library and the typical academic librarian is white, female, and liberal.  I've certainly come into contact with racists on and off the job but I usually read them the riot act or write them off as too stupid to be bothered with. 
Quote
You said: "All three should be verboten as far as I'm concerned." I took this out of context. The question really is what we mean by "verboten".
Verboten in a social sense, as in not acceptable in polite society... or something like that.  I don't have a problem with words so much as the meaning or intent of the user.  I support hate crime legislation, especially for sexual orientation, because it is still socially acceptable to fag-bait or bash.  However, if a group of Blacks decide to kill a whitie because of skin color that is a hate crime, too
Quote
...I don't agree that the Boy Scouts "can't" discriminate. I don't support the many lawsuits against BSA, provided BSA behaves like a private organization. Let the Boy Scouts offend ("no gays"), or be stupid ("no atheists"). We can form our own organizations to combat them.
As a private organization the Boy Scouts should be able to do as they please.  What I don't agree with is giving them public monies or donations from organizations that include bans against discrimination based on sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
Quote
You write "as an atheist goy I've never been jew-baited". Well I am an atheist, but not "goyim", and it is fitting that a racist would "jew-bait" me, making no distinction among Jews. Thanks to Hitler, this Jew won't ever say he's "not a Jew." 
I actually have been jew-baited or, more often, subjected to someone's anti-semitism.  One of my best friends uses the term "jew them down" sometimes and I groan and admonish her, even though her pat reply is she's part Jewish.
Quote
... In the late 70's a feminist organization in SF, WAVPM, Women Against Violence and Pornography in the Media, marched at night through the Tenderloin protesting against porno bookstores and prostitution.
I also split away from feminists who insist all pornography is sexist.  While I wish women (and men and children) were not forced into prostitution (as they still are in some cases) I believe prostitution should be legal for adults.  What is the name of the "union" for prostitutes?  COYOTE or something like that?  Twenty years ago I became friends with several prostitutes and still see one of them fairly often, although she left the trade long ago.
Quote
Now to our time... A few years ago, 99 year-old, real-life unrepentant friend of Adolf Hitler, Leni Riefenstahl (Cinematographer, "Triumph of Will"), was having a commercial show ...
I probably would have joined you in protest since Fraulein Riefenstahl tried to excuse her pro-Nazi activities but, as you observed, never actually renounced them.   
Quote
If all this seems irrelevant, we have only to watch the discussion unfold right here, as to what if any speech, and who if anybody, should be kept off this web board.
I don't think it's irrelevant but what I see is a wide disparity in what defines PC among those who use the term.  Used by hard-line right wingers anything they disagree with is PC but your average ACLU supporting liberal uses PC in a much stricter sense.  I guess that's why I steer away from the term altogether.

As for restricting access to AIDSmeds it's more a practical matter of insuring a lower noise/signal ratio by kicking out rabid HIV denialists, overly homophobic idiots, and the like.  I am sometimes uncomfortable when a topic is locked because regardless of how nasty a thread turns I'd rather let it die on its own than have a moderator intervene.  I'm not averse to spitting a little bile from time to time; it's cathartic.

I have no idea how old you are but as I said I'm a product of the 60s and 70s -- one of my earliest memories of racism is when I spotted a drinking fountain with a sign reading "colored" above it.  My brother and I rushed over and pressed the lever and were quite disappointed when the water came out in its boring clearness.  I remember my shock in 7th grade when the Kent State killings occurred and none of my classmates knew or didn't care.   Shit, I still support affirmative action for ethnic minorities and women...  IOW, I'm probably incontrovertibly PC by most definitions but I won't accept the label. 

Boo
String up every aristocrat!
Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!





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