Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 22, 2014, 12:18:36 AM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
  • Total Members: 23515
  • Latest: Sevans
Stats
  • Total Posts: 639724
  • Total Topics: 48560
  • Online Today: 178
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Ferguson MO  (Read 2124 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,718
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2014, 07:05:35 PM »
One of the regrettable reasons I shouldn't have seen the video is that someone like me doesn't have the knowledge to evaluate what is just and unjust use of deadly force.
Ultimately its the review boards, and/or any jury to figure this stuff out.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/22/3474562/this-police-shooting-caught-on-tape-shocked-the-nation-but-experts-say-it-was-justified/

Videotaped Police Shooting Shocked The Nation, But These Experts Say It Was Justified
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Almost2late

  • Member
  • Posts: 249
  • "My disease stops with me" - Jeff G
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
The police are justified in meeting deadly force with deadly force.. Although the guy was obviously not in his right mind, he did have a weapon and he was approaching them.. Three feet is much too close to allow someone with a knife to approach an officer.. It could have been handled differently but that really depends on the training these officers received and what is there policy on these situations.. Being a cop is not an easy job and they try to make it home in one piece.. those guys will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.. Its a shame the guy was killed.
Atripla, Bactrim, Azithromycin
Date         CD4's          VL
02/14     13  2.79%    228k+
03/14     52       7%       3k-
04/14     not done          2k-
05/14     184     9%       595
06/14     117     8%       235  switched off Atripla
08/14     135    10%      110  stopped Azithromycin
Tivicay, Truvada, Bactrim

“I have heard there are troubles of more than one kind. Some come from ahead and some come from behind. But I've bought a big bat. I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!”
― Dr. Seuss

“Everybody dies … The thing is, to have a life before we die.”
― John Irving, The World According to Garp

Online tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,887
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2014, 02:01:28 AM »
With two officers there, I don't understand why one couldn't have used his taser, while the other was prepared to shoot, if the taser didn't work.  It would be different, if the man had a gun. 

I also don't understand cuffing a dead man, instead of starting CPR. 

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 11,795
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2014, 06:55:17 AM »
Im am not defending anyone because all the facts have not come out as of yet ... The cops pull up and have no way of knowing what kind of weapon the guy had . If I were a police officer I would not go into a situation like this with a taser drawn instead of a gun . The incident unfolded in 23 seconds and there was no time for discussion of a back up plan . Sadly this is a case of a mentally ill person who brought a knife to gun fight .

I wonder how many more cases like these is it going to take to get a meaningful discussion going on how first responders should handle these situations and I also wonder how many police officers will be killed because they are afraid to defend themselves. I have known a few police officers that were good cops and I know how some of them had allot of anxiety every day due to the high crime areas they were assigned to police . I have a first cousin who is a police chief in a small town and in the last year he had to shoot and kill a man he stopped when the guy shot at him through the back window of his car when he was approaching the vehicle.   

There have been many news reports in the last few years where family members have called the police because a family member was having a psychotic episode only to have their family member shot and killed and in many of these situations it was pretty clear the police could have retreated and waited the situation out instead of using deadly force .

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,386
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2014, 08:57:52 AM »
Im am not defending anyone because all the facts have not come out as of yet ... The cops pull up and have no way of knowing what kind of weapon the guy had . If I were a police officer I would not go into a situation like this with a taser drawn instead of a gun . The incident unfolded in 23 seconds and there was no time for discussion of a back up plan . Sadly this is a case of a mentally ill person who brought a knife to gun fight .

I wonder how many more cases like these is it going to take to get a meaningful discussion going on how first responders should handle these situations and I also wonder how many police officers will be killed because they are afraid to defend themselves. I have known a few police officers that were good cops and I know how some of them had allot of anxiety every day due to the high crime areas they were assigned to police . I have a first cousin who is a police chief in a small town and in the last year he had to shoot and kill a man he stopped when the guy shot at him through the back window of his car when he was approaching the vehicle.   

Exactly -- it is very easy to use hindsight and say someone should have done "this" or "that", but in the moment, the talking heads are NOT there.  I come from a family of cops - dad retired as a Police Commander in my home town, my older brother was a cop for 13 yrs, my step-brother is in his 20-something year as a cop. 
Are there bad cops -- sure, just like in any profession. 

There have been many news reports in the last few years where family members have called the police because a family member was having a psychotic episode only to have their family member shot and killed and in many of these situations it was pretty clear the police could have retreated and waited the situation out instead of using deadly force .

Yes -- until the suspect hurts/kills someone else (which can take a split-second) -- then it's all -- "why did the cops stand there and do nothing". 

I would NEVER want to be a cop - - they are often damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 11,795
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2014, 09:25:22 AM »
Ugh ... not sure if I am comfortable with bocker and I agreeing on something but since I'm a glass half full guy I will say its about damn time LOL .

We all know it, the issues that lead to many of these story's are layer upon layer of economic and social issues and unless those issues are addressed the tazer vs gun debate is worth having but is a band-aid solution at best .   

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,957
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2014, 10:26:52 AM »

Offline bocker3

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,386
  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2014, 11:42:59 AM »
Ugh ... not sure if I am comfortable with bocker and I agreeing on something but since I'm a glass half full guy I will say its about damn time LOL .

The long range forecast for hell -- Frozen & continued cold..   ;) ;D

Actually, we've agreed on things before -- take Sid, for example, we both agree he's a great (and lucky) guy.....

Hugs,
M
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 11,795
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2014, 11:51:44 AM »
The long range forecast for hell -- Frozen & continued cold..   ;) ;D

Actually, we've agreed on things before -- take Sid, for example, we both agree he's a great (and lucky) guy.....

Hugs,
M

I'm happy you see the humor in my comment . Sid is a very sweet man so if you believe in you get what you deserve in life you both have been lucky men indeed . 

Online tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,887
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2014, 04:05:06 PM »
Race will continue to be an issue in society and police.  In just recent weeks, we've seen a black man choked to death, over apparently selling cigs.  We saw a mentally ill, black grandmother beaten over and over again in the face. 

There is obviously a race element, as well as some bad officers, who would likely do the same things to white suspects.  And, there are many justified officers, where they had to make a quick decision.  I recently saw a video (I have tried to find it), where a white man was threatening officers in a parking lot.  He was very bold and could have opened fire at any time.  Instead of shooting the man, police spent a long time trying to reason with him.  He eventually was arrested.  I have seen many videos of a white person being reasoned with.  So, I can see why blacks and others would wonder why those police went way out of their way not to shoot, when he was a real threat.  I do think there is a bias, whether it is subconscious or not.  Perhaps they just have better training.   

Here is something I found about odds of being shot, depending on being white or black:

"Indeed, although police violence to a certain degree does cut across racial and demographic lines, the reality is, if you are black you are far more likely die at the hands of a police officer than you would if you are white. A 2007 investigation by ColorLines and the Chicago Reporter found for example that in ten major cities, there was a disproportionately high number of African-Americans among police shooting victims, particularly in New York, San Diego, and Las Vegas.

An investigation of the NAACP into police shootings in Oakland, California, found that out of 45 officer-involved shootings in the city between 2004 and 2008, 37 of those shot were black and none were white. Although one-third of the shootings resulted in fatalities and despite the fact that weapons were not found in 40 percent of cases, no officers were ever brought up on criminal charges."

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/22/is-police-brutality-color-blind/

Modified:

I forgot to add this video of an innocent black man getting pepper sprayed.  A white guy starts a fight, but it is the black guy, who gets pepper sprayed.  Many will say the officers may just not have known who the aggressor was.  Was there racial bias, by assuming the black man was the suspect?  I don't know, but these things add up.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/13/1321345/-White-guy-starts-fight-black-guy-gets-pepper-sprayed


« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 04:11:13 PM by tednlou2 »

Online zach

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,456
  • not fade away
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2014, 05:01:02 PM »
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Online tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,887
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2014, 12:11:42 AM »
Jon Stewart is back from vacation and I thought he did a good job discussing the whole situation.  I did not know Ferguson police had beaten an innocent black man and then charged him for cleaning the blood off their uniforms. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/jon-stewart-ferguson_n_5720622.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063


Offline OneTampa

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,203
  • "Butterflies are free."
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2014, 12:58:21 PM »
In the midst of all this mess, this study was reported recently:

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/study-police-body-cams-reduce-use-of-force-claims-by-up-to-88-percent-106226.html

I find it curious given the video evidence of police killing black men that we see.
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline poz91

  • Member
  • Posts: 75
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2014, 10:59:48 PM »
Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:

Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.

---------------------------------------

"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 11,795
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2014, 09:28:48 AM »
Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:

Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.

---------------------------------------

"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

Are the layers peeled back yet ? ... no, they have not been and we still do not know all the details . Whether some people like it or not what went on there that day and afterwards became much more than something as simple as man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot. 

Online tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,887
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2014, 03:18:15 PM »
I think it is interesting the use of the word "robbed."  We usually hear that, when someone holds up a bank or store and demands cash.  When someone steals something, we usually hear the word, "shoplifted."  I've seen many stories of white folks shoplifting and even scuffling with a cashier or security person, who is trying to take away the beer, soda, or candy bar, or detain them for the police to be called.  But, they called it shoplifting.  Interesting, I think. 




Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,718
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2014, 03:28:49 PM »
1) Store management's lawyers denied that Mike Brown stole anything.
2) Previous to above 1) - there was a police report filed THAT DAY about a strong-armed robbery. So, who gave that info to the police?  Seems like with the brouhaha that followed the shooting death, store management backtracked - simply does not want to be a partner to this mess.
3) If you shoplift and then strong arm someone to get away with it, then it is robbery. That's the law. Good point however, how this is or isn't charged to different ethnicities.

Ted you seem to speak with anecdotal evidence - no stats. 

This story is far from simple.   
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online zach

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,456
  • not fade away
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2014, 04:49:40 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ98z4__H-g

all i'm saying, i've never been taken down by cop just walking down the street, no
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 04:57:12 PM by zach »
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Offline weasel

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,681
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2014, 04:43:41 PM »
are those crimes capital offenses? should police mete out the ultimate "justice" by killing people in the streets without a trial?

While all the past offenses might be some sort of evidence in a court of law, these policemen made their judgement to shoot NOT based on that information.

and on the other hand, do you see any connections between blacks, crime, poverty, lack of education, the militarization of police forces, and police overreach (brutality)?


     REALLY !

   We ARE talking about Missouri here !     :o

    BLACK has little to do with this issue of Police Brutality  and  killing in this state .

    Most of the MURDERERS I have met are WHITE , I  know way too many people that killed people .
    Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined  that I would live in such a place that
   for the most part OVER LOOKS   MURDER !

     I was at the V. A. the other morning , the discussion  was that  SIX MEN HAD BEEN KILLED LAST WEEK
    , all in different  parts of Saint Louis County !!!! 
      Non of this has been on the local news ?   Maybe they are trying to quell the riots that  have only slowed but not stopped .
     As for color I believe the hate crimes in Memphis have been white peoples , but I'm sure that's another thread ?
     As for Zach's comment , I have been  hand-cuffed and jerked around by over  zealous  cops ! 
    For no reason other than being in place a cop thought I should not have been .  Held for two hours , then released to go about my business . 
     I stated before show me the REAL THUG PICTURES !    Even the news admits he had a long rap sheet ,
   that only two weeks before was sealed forever !   
    It is hard for me to over look the man STRONG ARMING A SMALL PERSON  to steal cigs !
   The facts speak for them selves .

                                                                                 Carl

   P.s.   I was just thinking this morning ; no matter how inconvenient  living 130 miles south of the city,
it's so much easier than dealing with problems that will never go away .     
" Live and let Live "

Offline weasel

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,681
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2014, 04:46:11 PM »
Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:

Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.

---------------------------------------

"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

    I could not agree more !
    That should of been the end of the story  :)

                                                                                       Carl
" Live and let Live "

Online tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,887
Re: Ferguson MO
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2014, 02:57:31 PM »
CNN aired video, taken in real time, of two contractors witnessing what happened.  The men are upset and saying Brown had his hands up, which backs up other witnesses.  I think they will be key in the investigation. 

Even if there was a scuffle, which to my knowledge has not even been confirmed, you cannot use deadly force, because your ego was hurt and especially when someone is surrendering.  The men say there was at least one shot, when Brown's back was turned. 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.