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Author Topic: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss  (Read 3668 times)

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Online mecch

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New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« on: April 18, 2014, 01:18:05 PM »
Since it sneaks into other threads every month, here's a new thread to have at it directly.

Michael Weinstein, head of the AIDS Health Care Foundation, is no fan of PreP and let it be known here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/truvada-gay-men-hiv_n_5102515.html

"If something comes along that's better than condoms, I'm all for it, but Truvada is not that," said Michael Weinstein, president of the AIDS Healthcare Foundation. "Let's be honest: It's a party drug."


Buzzfeed discusses the controversy, here:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/tonymerevick/head-of-largest-us-hivaids-healthcare-organization-still-ins

Weinstein, who has long been a critic of the blue pill, has no intentions of stepping aside or quieting down and blames much of the backlash he’s received on what he said is the “bareback porn industry.” Michael Lucas, creator of one of the largest gay porn companies, Lucas Entertainment, also called for Weinstein to leave his job in an op-ed published by Out magazine.

“In the last few days in terms of the people who have been yelling the loudest about this, they’ve all been associated with bareback porn,” he said. “They’re all associated with bareback porn, which kind of makes my point that it’s a party drug.”

According to Lucas, Weinstein should be removed from his post immediately, saying, “Mr. Weinstein knows how to portray PrEP, along with gay men, in the most unattractive light,” Lucas wrote. “… In Mr. Weinsteing’s eyes, PrEP isn’t about public health. It’s just a highly expensive way for those horny, irresponsible gays to go back to their barebacking-gone-wild.”
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 01:22:08 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 01:44:40 PM »
fundamentally opposed

a truveda party, that'll smell great

some of the things i feel about the rationalizations for this, i don't think i should say publically here, there will be hurt feelings. i go further (is it farther, i've never known) than weinstein in thinking its failed logic. and with some proponents of it, i seriously question their motivations and agenda
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
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out across the hills, forevermore

Online AusShep

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 01:46:46 PM »
Weinstein is an ass, and he should be forced out.  His arguments fail to consider the real world problems of alcohol, substance abuse, psychiatric disorders, sero-discordant relationships, etc.  His arguments about adherence have no more weight than saying we should stop taking HIV drugs since some people aren't adherent.  Further, early studies have shown risk behavior hasn't gone up yet for those taking it, i.e. The excuse to bareback rationale.

My partner is negative, we've been together nearly 22 years, and I've been poz for 19+.  He's not on PrEP now, but very well may be next year when he switches insurance.  Sometimes it feels like we've been lucky and are playing Russian Roulette, although with a very large magazine, and possibly no bullets. 

He's also been diagnosed bi-polar about 6 years ago, and one of the symptoms of mania is unsafe sexual practices.  He's screwed up before, but been lucky.  If we decide to go on PrEP, one of the reasons will be as extra insurance in case he does have a manic episode and really isn't in control of what he does.  I don't think we would use it as an excuse to bareback, pending more results from the partner studies.

Since PrEP can prevent infections of those subject to lapses in judgement, be it due to drugs, alcohol, feeling safe with someone who says they're monagomous or HIV- when they may not be, bi-polar, etc., I believe it is a valid additional protective measure in many cases, and shouldn't be used as slut shaming, or assumed to be only for those wanting a license to bareback without discretion.

Online AusShep

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2014, 02:32:22 PM »
Another article this week, the AHF poster leatherman also wants Weinstein out:

http://www.wehoville.com/2014/04/15/calling-truvada-party-drug-ahfs-michael-weinstein-sparks-debate-might-illuminate-risks-rewards-prep/

Today Eric Paul Leue, recently named Mr. Los Angeles Leather and, coincidentally, a figure in a current AHF ad campaign, says he is launching a petition drive to demand that Weinstein resign from AHF, which he founded in 1987


Offline buginme2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2014, 02:54:50 PM »
For Weinstein its not about whether Truvada prevents HIV its about people having sex without condoms. 

There are a number of people in the HIV prevention community who for decades have been pushing the "condom" message to prevent HIV.

In the past few years there has come to light 2 very effective ways to prevent HIV that does not include condom usage, PreP and Treatment as Prevention. 

Even though the science shows that they are equally (if not more) effective than condom usage there are many in the prevention community that are having a real hard time getting behind, because they dont include condoms.


There is something deeper with Weinstein.  His language about Truvada being a party drug is apparent that he some deep emotions regarding people have sex without condoms.  If Weinstein can't adjust his thinking and agency around new prevention methods that don't include condoms then he should resign. 

Also, the fact that he has dismissed someone because they are in the "bareback porn" industry is seems elitist.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 03:23:30 PM by buginme2 »

Offline Bizkits

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2014, 02:55:57 PM »
fundamentally opposed

a truveda party, that'll smell great

some of the things i feel about the rationalizations for this, i don't think i should say publically here, there will be hurt feelings. i go further (is it farther, i've never known) than weinstein in thinking its failed logic. and with some proponents of it, i seriously question their motivations and agenda

I tend to agree with you on this. We all make unwise decisions at times, that's likely how most of us ended up in here. Perhaps if Truvada were available to me as PrEP, I wouldn't be taking it as a HIV-1 treatment.  I could see why some would consider it wreckless and hide underneath it's "umbrella" so to speak or using it as an excuse to justify unsafe behavior. However, when it comes down to it, it's another means of prevention and that shouldn't be overlooked.

By the way, further and farther are confusing as hell.
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/farther-vs-further/

Online mecch

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2014, 03:18:04 PM »
I tend to agree with you on this. We all make unwise decisions at times, that's likely how most of us ended up in here. Perhaps if Truvada were available to me as PrEP, I wouldn't be taking it as a HIV-1 treatment.  I could see why some would consider it wreckless and hide underneath it's "umbrella" so to speak or using it as an excuse to justify unsafe behavior. However, when it comes down to it, it's another means of prevention and that shouldn't be overlooked.

By the way, further and farther are confusing as hell.
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/farther-vs-further/

I am confused bizkits.  I read Zach as being oppose to PrEP.  But your words sound like you think its another useful means of prevention...
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Jeff G

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2014, 03:30:06 PM »
I am very excited prep is an option for so many . Used correctly it could be one of the most powerful prevention tools we have ever seen .

The argument by some that contraception, condoms and pills will lead to promiscuity is hardly a new debate, this is the newest twist from the please don't have sex crowd .

Offline wolfter

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2014, 03:34:39 PM »
I didn't get a response in the other thread, so I get a second opportunity.  ;)  PrEP does nothing to address sexual responsibility in regards to other STD's and unwanted pregnancies. 

wolfie
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Online Jeff G

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2014, 03:39:28 PM »
I didn't get a response in the other thread, so I get a second opportunity.  ;)  PrEP does nothing to address sexual responsibility in regards to other STD's and unwanted pregnancies. 

wolfie

True , but it sure works as a tool for HIV and that's worth allot . 

Online mecch

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2014, 03:40:10 PM »
People who use PrEP know that it is not a contraceptive and that it does not prevent other STDs.  Why must the merits of PrEP be put onto a false balance sheet against supposed downsides -- that are not at all what PrEP is designed for.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2014, 03:49:40 PM »
We have an entire program for this at my HIV clinic. IIRC it's funded by our city's Dept. of Health HIV Coordinating Office and is one of the first such kind on this scale in the US.

Yet another reason Philly sucks less than where you live.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online Jeff G

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2014, 03:58:10 PM »
We have an entire program for this at my HIV clinic. IIRC it's funded by our city's Dept. of Health HIV Coordinating Office and is one of the first such kind on this scale in the US.

Yet another reason Philly sucks less than where you live.

My clinic gives a basket of ramps with every bottle of Truvada is the ONLY place that does this .

Offline vertigo

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2014, 04:01:26 PM »
Jeff G is totally right.  PrEP is an amazing prevention option.  Not right for everyone, of course, but a really effective tool in the toolkit.  If condoms are so great, how come we still have so many new infections every year?

The very heated opposition that some have towards it reminds me of the backlash that followed the introduction of birth control pills -- that women who used them were sluts.  It seems rooted in a very Catholic or Puritanical view that sex is basically bad, and something to be ashamed of.

If the goal is to reduce the number of new infections, why oppose something that will help accomplish that goal?  Of course PrEP doesn't stop transmission of other STD's, but HIV remains the biggie.  It's the only one you can't get rid of, as we all know.

I could give more credence to the anti-PrEP crowd if I thought their opposition was wholly motivated by public health concerns, but I think some of them are working out other subtextual issues in public.  They should save them for their therapy sessions.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 04:09:18 PM by vertigo »

Online AusShep

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2014, 04:09:32 PM »
... but HIV remains the biggie.  It's the only one you can't get rid of, as we all know...

Well, other than herpes, hpv, and in some cases hepatitis b and c.

Offline Bizkits

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 04:09:49 PM »
I am confused bizkits.  I read Zach as being oppose to PrEP.  But your words sound like you think its another useful means of prevention...

Good point, I should clarify. I may be at a stage where I am turning the corner on this subject. At first, I was opposed for several reasons:

-as stated already, it's not useful as a preventative for other std's or contraception
-It's a drug. Unlike condoms, you have to be under close medical care, routinely check labs for kidney/liver function, it can potentially effect your triglycerides and cholesterol,  have to watch out for drug-drug interactions with anything else you may be taking. Not to mention other potential side effects.
-it's expensive
-risk of people using it irresponsibilly (an excuse to be unsafe or encourage that behavior). Or even giving them a false sense of security that they cannot contract hiv (even though unlikely).

BUT...I have to take a look at myself. I'm a healthy person despite being poz (and having kidney stones). I'm not out of shape, don't have any habbits that are too horrible and I generally take care of myself. Hell until now, I saw the doctor maybe once a year just for a check-up (less kidney stones, again lol). I also didn't care for condoms much and knowing my risks decided not to use them anyway. Now I'm here. And you know what else I realize? There are a lot of people that do the same thing I did. A whole bunch. Now I may not personally agree completely with dishing out Truvada like candy as it is something to take very seriously...but as I said, it can't be overlooked as a preventative. There is definitely some good to be had. It probably would have aided in my experience and escapades...

Online mecch

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2014, 04:15:32 PM »
I would say it doesn't have to be a black and white, all good or all bad position.

I could easily see an uptick in other STDS if PrEP catches on in the urban gay horny and not that consistent with condoms set...  And thats not good.  Agreed. But its not necessarily a reason to say PrEP is bad because PrEP will prevent HIV infections and of course everyone who is interested in PrEP is not an "urban horny gay guy" or however you want to label this at risk group. 

We can't dismiss the fears about an uptick in STDs because we have been warned for a few years of some drug resistant ones in the pipeline.....

So, can't the public hold contradictory information in their minds? Cant we keep giving ALL the information about STDs and their prevention, and also go ahead and use this PrEP tool to prevent one STD, at least for several years, and evaluate it along the way?


“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline vertigo

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2014, 04:26:06 PM »
AusShep, my understanding of the new Hep-C drugs is that response rates above 90% are seen.  As for Hep-B, at least we have a vaccine for it.  Can't get rid of herpes or hpv, true, so I will stand <narrowly> corrected on that score.  But they're also something that most people can deal with, so I think my basic point still holds.

Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2014, 04:45:05 PM »
I am confused bizkits.  I read Zach as being oppose to PrEP.  But your words sound like you think its another useful means of prevention...

you read me correctly. 5x5 except for one split hair. i do think it is effective, its not that i don't recognize that. but no offense to anyone meant, i agree to an extent with weinsteins sentiment if not his choice of words. i'm the last to slut shame anyone

edited to add, i am in very close alignment with biz on this. i even sort of feel the same thing he does, there may be a way of framing the debate that brings me around the corner

i just don't really think so. i understand the choice of words "party drug" and for some nobody like me to say it is one thing, for a representative in the office he hold, it was maybe not the wisest way of wording it
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 04:52:10 PM by zach »
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2014, 04:48:54 PM »
I remember back around 2001 first encountering pre-packaged baggies of meth, tenofovir and viagra called MTV during circuit events like The Black Party -- perhaps Mr. Weinstein is just confused.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2014, 04:53:35 PM »
i love you, really do. you have an incredible ability to slice right to the heart of an issue with so few words and so much truth
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Offline pittman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2014, 05:12:08 PM »
If PrEP is just a party drug, then so are birth control pills.  At least Limbaugh was consistent in that matter.

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2014, 06:17:30 PM »
.... Of course PrEP doesn't stop transmission of other STD's, but HIV remains the biggie.  It's the only one you can't get rid of, as we all know.



I just read on the mainpage something different about HIV  being "the biggie" :

"April 16, 2014

Viral Hepatitis Kills More Europeans Than HIV by Tenfold[b/]"

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/hepatitis_burden_1667_25476.shtml
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 06:19:38 PM by Grasshopper »

Offline tednlou2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2014, 01:45:16 AM »
I don't know how sound these studies were, but I remember the study that half of all gay men hooking up on social sites admit to having bareback sex.  And, those were the ones admitting it.  There was also that study/estimate that said HALF of all gay men now 22 will have HIV by age 50.  If that is a good estimate, then that is staggering.

So, should PrEP become the gay man's birth control pill?  As so many do with their teen daughters, should teen gay boys be offered "the pill?"  More and more gay teens are coming out early and having open discussions with family and friends.  The birth control pill is not without side-effects (sometimes serious, but mostly extremely safe) and that pill is pretty much the norm now.  There was a study that said Truvada as PrEP does not increase kidney toxicity. 

This isn't just about "partying."  Many are infected in relationships.  Gay couples ditching condoms is just a natural as heterosexual couples doing it.  The risk is just greater for the gay couple, when there is infidelity.  And, I believe the stats that ~80% of ALL relationships have infidelity at some point.  If PrEP is as safe and effective as I keep hearing, then perhaps it should become the new pill for gay teens and men.  If we will have half of the gay population infected, then any prevention is good. 

Offline pittman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2014, 08:00:09 AM »
I remember back around 2001 first encountering pre-packaged baggies of meth, tenofovir and viagra called MTV during circuit events like The Black Party -- perhaps Mr. Weinstein is just confused.

That really is misleading.  Weinstein is not just saying it is used as a party drug, he is suggesting that is its intended purpose and should be completely discouraged as a preventative measure.

Putting meth, a birth control pill and ecstasy in a baggie at a teen rave would not make the other 12 million women using oral contraceptives party whores.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2014, 10:11:02 AM »
That really is misleading.  Weinstein is not just saying it is used as a party drug, he is suggesting that is its intended purpose and should be completely discouraged as a preventative measure.

Putting meth, a birth control pill and ecstasy in a baggie at a teen rave would not make the other 12 million women using oral contraceptives party whores.

#itwasajokehumorlessone
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Offline pittman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2014, 10:20:34 AM »
#itwasajokehumorlessone

I have to take even my pills with water, you can't expect me to to swallow your dry wit now.  <insert appropriate emoticon here>

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2014, 12:48:28 PM »
If I was HIV- I'm not sure if I would want to take Truvada unless I was in a relationship and decided to stop using condoms. When I was single I was much too fearful of contracting STDs to not use a condom with casual sex partners. In fact, the big fear I had when I was single wasn't contracting HIV, because that seemed easily preventable, it was herpes because it is incurable and easy to transmit. Now with antibiotic resistant gonorrhea on the rise there is one more thing to worry about.

Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2014, 02:25:15 PM »
sex is just bad, don't do it, everything will be alright
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Offline tednlou2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2014, 10:50:35 PM »
I read this on Facebook-- posted by a fellow member here.  Interesting article.

http://m.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/thenewcivilrights/#!/entry/yep-im-another-truvada-whore,536e7fc3025312186c0524b8

Online mecch

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2014, 04:56:04 PM »
Thats a great article.  Yeah for the "truvada whores" - may they live long and stay HIV negative.
Down with slut shamers and down with that awful sounding AHF!  What a takedown.

I still feel this will save people from HIV, but its going to be a pandora's box of other STIs and this could really surprise a lot of people, who presently over-fixate on HIV as the only big bad cootie out there.

Hep C. Hep C. Hep C. 

and resistant bugaboos in the pipeline.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Dan0

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2014, 05:18:33 PM »
Since this thread started, I've been noticing more and more the articles that sprout up about this. I wasn't reading them before because, frankly, I don't see the controversy. I just don't see what the huge deal is - everyone is going to have an opinion on something and mine is very simple......if it helps and you can afford it, then use it!  Some may become the proverbial 'party whore' but others may find this a reassuring.  It's not a blanket one size fits all - particularly not enough that anyone would get fixated on it.  You really can't control the behaviors some will associate with this resource. The potential marketing of it, now that is where I would have some issues but not with the end user.

It reminds me of the 'aspirin a day' regimen that may protect from heart attacks.  It very well MAY do some wonderful things but it isn't a confirmation letter to eat bacon on everything morning, noon and night, no exercise in the least and chain smoke three packs of Pall-Mall unfiltered a day! Heart's fine....everything else is shot to hell! Then again, if they do, well........you can lead a horse to water.....

Maybe the Dorothy Parker quip....."You can lead a whore to culture...but you can't make her think!"
You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches.

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Offline bmancanfly

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2014, 05:26:28 PM »
PrEP is the only "party drug" I didn't do.    Too bad.

Why anyone would want to stop someone from using this as a prevention tool is beyond me.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

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Offline Basquo

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2014, 10:04:04 PM »
I would love for my negative partner to take a pill that would make it possible for us to to shag each other, back and forth, all night long...

but I'm not about to approach him about taking a drug he doesn't need, and might give him some unpleasant side effects, just so I can finally nail him, all the way, without pulling out...

so can one of you ask him for me?

 ;)

Online Jeff G

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 10:12:55 PM »
I would love for my negative partner to take a pill that would make it possible for us to to shag each other, back and forth, all night long...

but I'm not about to approach him about taking a drug he doesn't need, and might give him some unpleasant side effects, just so I can finally nail him, all the way, without pulling out...

so can one of you ask him for me?

 ;)

I just posted the question on his FB wall .... just kidding LOL .

Offline aaware72

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 10:36:12 PM »
I don't know how sound these studies were, but I remember the study that half of all gay men hooking up on social sites admit to having bareback sex.  And, those were the ones admitting it.  There was also that study/estimate that said HALF of all gay men now 22 will have HIV by age 50.  If that is a good estimate, then that is staggering.


That study that I saw said a that a person 18 now has a 2 in 5 chance of being infected by the time they are 40.  Needless to say that it scary still. 
"Yes, knowledge is power. Self-knowledge brings mastery of one's body."

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2014, 10:48:28 PM »
I would love for my negative partner to take a pill that would make it possible for us to to shag each other, back and forth, all night long...

Um, are you still talking about Truvada? I'm pretty sure it's Viagra that helps one keep going all night long. . .
::)

Offline pittman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 11:05:00 PM »
I read this on Facebook-- posted by a fellow member here.  Interesting article.

http://m.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/thenewcivilrights/#!/entry/yep-im-another-truvada-whore,536e7fc3025312186c0524b8

Interesting article. I wonder if there was an effective HIV vaccine, how that would change the arguments against PReP?  After all, just like the HPV and HEP vaccines, going condomless still puts you at risk for other STIs and yet I don't hear about HPV vaccine whores.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 11:54:50 PM »
That study that I saw said a that a person 18 now has a 2 in 5 chance of being infected by the time they are 40.  Needless to say that it scary still.

Yeah, I've seen different figures used.  I've seen the age 22 by age 50 and the 18 by 40.  Perhaps the 50% mentions probably said "nearly half of all gay men."  Like you said, either way it is concerning and still talking about a large number of gay men. 

Btw, I have been curious, ever since I read that study that said Truvada as PrEP doesn't appear to be kidney risk.  Why would it be different from poz folks taking it and kidney issues seen?  Is it HIV, itself, that makes kidney injury more likely?   Is it that this is just one study and further studies may say something different?  I remember reading that kidney injury in poz patients was not seen as much in trials and early studies, as was found in the real world of use. 

Offline tednlou2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2014, 04:10:52 PM »
Interesting article about stigma, but nothing we don't know.  Just thought it was interesting and good this is getting attention.  Well there was something I'm curious about from those who lived through those days.  The writer says the gay community was fairly united back in the 80's and early 90's.  I guess those who were negative thought it could very well happen to them or they didn't know whether they were infected, so that's the explanation?  Or, do you disagree with that take on the gay community.  I remember when I came out in 1993, there were plenty of gays saying, "That girl should have been more selective who she let in there."  All the while, I knew these people were barebacking, while casting judgement.  It does seem worst today, but that's the nature of the internet.  It seems to attract more hateful people.  Well, they are more likely to post in a comment section anyway. 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4856233

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2014, 08:11:37 PM »
...  Well there was something I'm curious about from those who lived through those days.  The writer says the gay community was fairly united back in the 80's and early 90's.  I guess those who were negative thought it could very well happen to them or they didn't know whether they were infected, so that's the explanation?  Or, do you disagree with that take on the gay community...

By 85 there was the HIV test, and by 82 or 83 everyone knew how it spread, oral was considered more of a potential risk then though.  I think for my first anonymous test it took 3 weeks of worrying and walking around with the pink slip in your wallet before you could get results.

I think the community was more united.  We had to fight for funding, people were dying horrible deaths, sunken faces, wasting, KS, and other skin issues were the obvious signs then, kids were kicked out of homes and schools, bio hazard signs and full protective gear was in place in the hospitals.  The early weird theories on poppers, condoms, foreign sperm, and other possible means of transmission fell away pretty fast, but since there was no cure, and so many people died within a year or two of diagnosis, the stigma and fear was huge, it took a united front and fighting by groups like Act Up! to get research money, prevention funding, and laws in place.  Universal precautions, ADA protection, etc came after the initial years, and we still don't have full LGBT employment protection...

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2014, 08:36:46 PM »
  Or, do you disagree with that take on the gay community. 


It breaks my heart that the worst of HIV stigma comes from my own community: gay men. It wasn't always this way. It might surprise today's younger gay men to learn that there was very little HIV-related stigma between us during the early years of the crisis. If anything, I felt the opposite of stigma when I publicly disclosed my status in the late '80s. Gay men with HIV received communal love and support. Once the gospel of safe sex was firmly entrenched, even sexual shunning became rare. Maybe it was our numbers, with upwards of half of New York's and San Francisco's gay men being HIV-positive by 1985. Maybe it was because many of us couldn't hide it, as our HIV painfully manifested as AIDS. Maybe it was our communal fighting back, as we rose up against a government that was ignoring our suffering.

Regardless of the reasons, we felt like one community. We were all living with HIV, regardless of status. I realize this view is skewed. I lived in a city where the social norms were being heavily influenced by ACT UP and other community responses to the crisis. The beginnings of gay-on-gay HIV-related stigma could be easily found in other cities and towns back then. But now it seems to be the norm, regardless of location.


---

I think this is journalese and wobbly social history.  In my opinion, slut shaming is as old as Rome, when it's related to STIs, and in both the hetero and homo communities. I don't see radical shifts. I think the entire range of ignorance and stigma was present in the 80s just as it is now...

I was in my 20's in the 80's and lived in NY and SF.  Certainly there was love and support for people with AIDS.  And then, as you know, people had AIDS, and then then died. Its really not all that comparable to today. Because today we have HIV+ and HIV- people in the urban fabric and not that heaving dying off of the plague years.  There isn't all that much need by the general gay community in 2014 for "love and support" in same way.  Yes HIV+ people get sick. Yes some have AIDS.  But sorry, its not the same. In the 80's you could count on supporting more than one friend a year through his wrenching death.

Slut shaming was around in the 80s and it around today.  What is new today, which didn't exist in the 80s or 90s, is the quantity of attractive 20 yo - 50 yo HIV+ guys in the dating pool who are viable long-term lovers. 

There is an apples and oranges discussion to things .. essays saying HIV- guys not wanting to have sex with HIV+ guys.  First of all love and support through the plaque years doesn't mean everyone was fine sleeping with a person with AIDS.  Me and my buddies moved to SF and NYC from college towns and had the lucky timing and then the safe sex info and we didnt have HIV and we didn't date HIV+ guys  but we were friends with them. In the 80s I was the only HIV- guy who dated people with AIDS, in my circle. Guys with AIDS were shunned in the sheets. Not all, of course. but many. Just as it exists today. 
Gay men on the sex scene. and dating scene, are often very very rigid and particular what they look for.  In the 80s there were certain valued characteristics and others to be sure to avoid.  Just as their are today.  The "i am clean, UB2" is no more or less taudy and small-minded than the other deal-makers or breakers on the list. Too fat? Wrong color? Wrong salary? Wrong diploma? Small cock? etc etc etc
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 08:40:41 PM by mecch »
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Online Jeff G

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2014, 08:43:28 PM »
This was my experience . I have reflected back on this many times . I might add that I only found acceptance as a gay man out with my HIV status after moving from Alabama to Chicago . I think if I had stayed in Alabama I probably would have died from a broken heart long before HIV did its work .

Quote
It might surprise today's younger gay men to learn that there was very little HIV-related stigma between us during the early years of the crisis. If anything, I felt the opposite of stigma when I publicly disclosed my status in the late '80s. Gay men with HIV received communal love and support.

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2014, 10:02:13 PM »


Hi Ted,

Between 1983 and 1985, There was stigma being created by some, not many, within the gay community. So the author of the article was right by saying " Fairly United". 

To answer your question Ted,...  Yes, you had some in the bars, that would  say " Well what do you expect, he was fucking everyone" or "He was a hustler, it was his own damn fault." Or, " He got what he deserved"  That kind of talk didn't last too long, and when I think back at it, some of those making those comments had ended up becoming HIV positive.


We started seeing the first people getting sick around 1983. One minute, you had healthy people walking around. 4 months later, some of these same healthy people were walking around with canes, or in some cases, they were in wheelchairs, and 40 pounds lighter.

 We knew a few, that had amputations because of infections that were taking place. some lost an arm others a leg. Others just disappeared, never to be seen again, only to find out later, that they had died. Many wore long sleeve shirts, to cover the Kaposi.

Joe ( Killfoile) spoke quite well of the situation that was going in Detroit in that period of time, within the hospitals, and within the gay community.

In Clearwater, Florida, which in contrast to Detroit, was a speck on a map, death was ongoing, every week, every month, non stop. We never had a break from a funeral or memorial service.

Clearwater only had two bars, everyone knew each other. And we had a good size gay community.


 After the HIV test came out in 1985, Ed and I knew at least 2 people who killed themselves, One hung himself and was found in his garage, another shot himself. This was shortly after finding out they were positive.


And some of the youngsters ( not referring to you Ted), wonder why we LTS are mentally scarred.

When I tested positive in 1985, I was told to exit the Health Dept building, through the service/delivery entrance at the rear of the building. A nurse practitioner, ( Gloved and masked), walk me down a hallway to a back entrance door. They didn't want me to walk out through the same entrance I walked in.

I left, went to the bar, and had a few drinks, knowing full well I would not go back to that place again.

Thanks for posting that article Ted.



Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

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Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2014, 10:37:49 PM »
this thread has been very thought provoking, i just wanted to thank yall... seriously
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
looking over the valley, for the beauty i see
out across the hills, forevermore

Online mecch

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2014, 04:05:47 PM »
Just so you know Larry Kramer's thoughts on Truvada/PrEP:

"Anybody who voluntarily takes an antiviral every day has got to have rocks in their heads," Mr. Kramer said, describing the side effects of drugs he has taken. "There's something to me cowardly about taking Truvada instead of using a condom. You're taking a drug that is poison to you, and it has lessened your energy to fight, to get involved, to do anything.""Anybody who voluntarily takes an antiviral every day has got to have rocks in their heads," Mr. Kramer said, describing the side effects of drugs he has taken.


http://gawker.com/gay-icon-barbra-streisand-finds-gay-sex-distasteful-sa-1579531865
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline pittman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2014, 12:46:58 AM »
Just so you know Larry Kramer's thoughts on Truvada/PrEP. [. . . ]

Eh.  His opinion holds no special weight on the topic for me.

Offline vertigo

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2014, 01:22:41 AM »

Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2014, 01:53:41 AM »
how much of this is just larry being larry? he's always been a lightening rod, he's always been offensive

i kind of feel like all sides here have a bit of truth. and the entire debate has been hijacked by the media doing what do. they love this, kramer pissing off the community, and us turning on a pillar we've all stood on (many, without knowing it)

seemingly opposing statements can all be true at the same time

truvada is becoming a party drug

truvada is effective as prep

some will take it responsibly, and still protect themselves against other std's, some will not

some, will be whores. get offended all you want. everyone here has been to gay clubs. lets not pretend when we came from that reality

so how do we reconcile these contradictions?
gonna go up to the mountain, for to find a little peace
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out across the hills, forevermore

Offline bocker3

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2014, 08:00:32 AM »

seemingly opposing statements can all be true at the same time

Careful now Zach -- fence sitting is not appreciated here.  you must pick a side --  choose carefully!!  ;)
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2014, 08:03:09 AM »
btw, these T-shirts are now evidently all the rage

"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online Jeff G

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2014, 08:43:18 AM »
When I was in my 20's I would have chose to be on PrEP if I had the opportunity and I would not had let stigma stand in my way . I can can say that about stigma because I didn't let it stand in my way before or after I tested poz . Another reason I think I may have chosen Truvada as a preventive medicine is because before I knew I had HIV and we got the news that a test was going to soon be available at the health department that could tell you if you were infected or not I began asking people were they going to go test and the resounding answer was mostly silence and sometimes a very quite why do you think you have Aids .

I was one of the first in my community to ever go to the health department and ask for a test and they initially refused to do it . The first time I ever experienced stigma was before I knew I had HIV, the first time was when I tried to talk to my friends about HIV and the second time is when I tried to test .
 
Its inevitable that stigma is going to keep many people from taking PrEP and stigma once again will lead to more infections and more preventable deaths . Condoms were the only tool in our arsenal to prevent HIV and the ones who embraced that tool avoided HIV and many who did not got sick and died . The debate over Truvada as a prevention tool is more of the same and as its always been, stigma still rules the day and is a major hurdle in preventing a whole new generation from avoiding this virus .

I was a one of the ones that could have been saved by PrEP and I think I would have taken it if I had the chance back then .
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 09:02:45 AM by Jeff G »

Offline leatherman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2014, 09:18:44 AM »
I was a one of the ones that could have been saved by PrEP and I think I would have taken it if I had the chance back then .
that's why I don't understand this whole meme about "people are not wanting to take Truvada because of slut-shaming". Straight young teen-age girls, not even having sex, have been getting over slut-shaming just fine to get on the pill for decades. Surely some young gay man being sexually active should be able to get over a little "slut shaming" from a bunch of jealous/petty queens, the uneducated, or repressed religious types. I say rather than complaining about those crying "slut", we empower gay men to take truvada because it's responsible. If little girls can understand they don't want to get knocked up, little gay boys can understand they don't want to get teh aids. duh!

I know in 1984 when I was a young gay man getting laid 25 out of 30 nights a month at least, hell yeah I would have taken truvada. What did I care if some prude (especially here in the religious Carolinas) though I was a "slut". I was having a lot of sex and loving it. Shoot! knowing what I know now I would have gotten the HPV vaccine too.
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Offline wolfter

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2014, 09:31:22 AM »


I know in 1984 when I was a young gay man getting laid 25 out of 30 nights a month at least, hell yeah I would have taken truvada. What did I care if some prude (especially here in the religious Carolinas) though I was a "slut". I was having a lot of sex and loving it. Shoot! knowing what I know now I would have gotten the HPV vaccine too.

Oh yeah, that sounds like my freshman year of college.  I thought being called a slut was a term of endearment.  :)  And sadly, I'm now a worn out Truvada wanta be whore. I take my Truvada everyday and would love to have sex that often again.
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2014, 05:21:48 PM »
I have read kidney issues don't seem to be an issue with PrEP, although still don't understand why there would be a difference.  I suppose the virus.  I just read resistance, due to becoming infected while on it, doesn't seem to be an issue-- unless you were seroconverting at the time you began.  The "poison" comment struck me most.  Is that going to help those who actually have HIV to decide to start meds, not to mention those considering PrEP?

Why would using a medication that is apparently 90-99% effective be stupid and weak?  I think it seems pretty brave and strong.  It means not wanting to be another statistic, adding to the healthcare issues, and wanting to protect your sex partners.  Condoms are not 100% and it seems the battle on that issue has been lost.  You have people entering into relationships, who ditch condoms just like billions of heterosexual couples do.  Studies show a majority of relationships have infedelity at some point and probably more in gay couples.  It is just easier for a gay man to find another for just sex.  You do not see many women on hookup sites.  Gay men (especially bottoms) are much more likely to suffer the consequences of that with HIV infection, than heterosexuals.  I just don't get the whore, weak, and idiot talk.  Seems pretty respectable, to me.  For those who do hook up daily (no judgement), I think it is even more respectable.

This guy took on Dan Savage for saying people on PrEP are "unreachable idiots."

http://sayencrowolf.net/2013/07/dan-savage-thinks-anyone-who-takes-prep-is-a-unreachable-idiot-hiv-aids/

Offline tednlou2

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2014, 05:39:34 PM »
Btw, I went to check my Facebook feed and this sponsored post/link was in my timeline.  Guess they are working to spread the word.  I'm sure those sponsored links are based on what our google searches have been.  I am not sure my mother would get this on her timeline. 

Anyway, I put in I was in a monogamous relationship and neither of us know our status and we don't use condoms.  They recommended I discuss PrEP with my doc.  When I put in we are in a monagomous relationship and have both tested negative, it did not ask about condom use.  It only asked about injection drug use.  Then it said PrEP was not recommended.  Having a negative result once means they don't ask about condoms and say PrEP is not recommended.  Hmmm.... 

http://www.ispreprightforme.com/

Offline pittman

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2014, 08:33:39 PM »
how much of this is just larry being larry? he's always been a lightening rod, he's always been offensive

i kind of feel like all sides here have a bit of truth. and the entire debate has been hijacked by the media doing what do. they love this, kramer pissing off the community, and us turning on a pillar we've all stood on (many, without knowing it)

seemingly opposing statements can all be true at the same time

truvada is becoming a party drug

truvada is effective as prep

some will take it responsibly, and still protect themselves against other std's, some will not

some, will be whores. get offended all you want. everyone here has been to gay clubs. lets not pretend when we came from that reality

so how do we reconcile these contradictions?

I don't really see what there is to reconcile when taking about how different people behave. They are not contradictions, they are just people. The drug and it's benefits exist separately from their behaviors.

I also find the term whore rather pointless. The most common definition is someone who has more sex partners than me, or with people I would exclude, etc.  Sex taboo always seems to screw with our ability to be rational and empathetic.

Hypothetically, imagine that the drug was offered as a generic and made widely available in some of the countries worst hit by HIV infections. Would it be a possible option to help stem the infection rate? Moreover, would we be calling them whores for taking it?  It isn't really knowable anytime soon and the practicality is not my real point, but rather, as a thought experiment, I think putting a little distance between the "gay Truvada whore" image and the rest of the world also impacted by HIV can us help sometimes see where we may be getting too wrapped up I'm the taboo and stigma aspects to see clearly.

(Zach, I may have quoted you, but that was just a discussion launch point, this was not really personally directed at you specifically.)


Online zach

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2014, 09:11:58 PM »
@pittman, nah man, we're cool, its all good... its a hot topic, the fire rises

most times i'm less than perfect at wording my thoughts, in person i don't talk much because of it. i take a long time to work out how i feel about some things

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Offline thunter34

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2014, 11:07:29 PM »
Certainly one of the better forum threads, in my estimation. 

I'm all for the eradication of this virus, period.  Condoms?  Yes.  PrEP?  Yes.  Treatment as prevention?  Yes.  Serosorting?  Yes.  Earlier and better education, most certainly.  Different means are going to work for different people.  I say offer as many options as possible.

But to that end...

I have to wonder (and this goes back to the statement just above about "what if this were for people of other, hard hit countries?") about one aspect of it.  Namely this:

PrEP would have been just the ticket for me because I am one of those bipolar cases who, prior to treatment for that, went manic and hyper sexual.  I wouldn't (and didn't) use condoms during my sexcapades, but I know that I would have swigged down that pill because on some level I knew how out of control I was and that during those moments I would not be wise. 

And yet...I was also relatively broke and uninsured, so I don't think I would have had that option available to me.  Thing is...I am representative of just the sort of target audience that would most have a pressing need for that option, but would be left without it (at least in the good ol' US of A).

I guess what I am trying to word is that, it seems to me, one of the best ways to utilize PrEP would be to make it available in the same way that ADAP meds are...but I'm just not seeing that happening.  Talk about slut shaming.  I can just hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth now about joe tax payer having to foot the bill for penalty free shagging.

And yet so many who would be most at need for what this prescription could provide would have no other way of getting it.  Let's face it:  pressing mental health issues and being on the lower rungs of the economic ladder kind of go hand and hand.
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Offline Buckmark

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2014, 01:05:16 AM »

...
PrEP would have been just the ticket for me because I am one of those bipolar cases who, prior to treatment for that, went manic and hyper sexual.  I wouldn't (and didn't) use condoms during my sexcapades, but I know that I would have swigged down that pill because on some level I knew how out of control I was and that during those moments I would not be wise. 

And yet...I was also relatively broke and uninsured, so I don't think I would have had that option available to me.  Thing is...I am representative of just the sort of target audience that would most have a pressing need for that option, but would be left without it (at least in the good ol' US of A).

I guess what I am trying to word is that, it seems to me, one of the best ways to utilize PrEP would be to make it available in the same way that ADAP meds are...but I'm just not seeing that happening.  Talk about slut shaming.  I can just hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth now about joe tax payer having to foot the bill for penalty free shagging.

And yet so many who would be most at need for what this prescription could provide would have no other way of getting it.  Let's face it:  pressing mental health issues and being on the lower rungs of the economic ladder kind of go hand and hand.
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We must be on the same wavelength, Tim, because I was just thinking that one of the bigger barriers to widespread adoption of PrEP is high pricing and payments that limit access.  That doesn't mean I don't support PrEP, because I do think it should be part of a multi-pronged strategy to prevent new infections.  But PrEP only works if you have access to the meds, and the meds ain't cheap.  As you said, at least in the USA, there are many "Joe Taxpayer" types who will howl about how expensive this is, alongside their argument of how this enables promiscuous behavior.  Or, at the very least, some will howl over how much less expensive a condom is, compared to PrEP.

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline Dan0

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Re: New PrEP thread. "Truvada is a party drug." Discuss
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2014, 01:37:09 AM »


I guess what I am trying to word is that, it seems to me, one of the best ways to utilize PrEP would be to make it available in the same way that ADAP meds are...but I'm just not seeing that happening.  Talk about slut shaming.  I can just hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth now about joe tax payer having to foot the bill for penalty free shagging.


The only thing that trumps moral indignation is cold hard cash. I can't recall who it was....someone in Britain who was instrumental in their health care passage...when asked how he was able to do it, his response was, "We shoved gold in their mouths!" Meaning, no matter what their concerns or outright protest, it melted away with the promise of pounds being dispersed!

Eventually, it will be the same here. The Pharmacuticals know where there bread is buttered in the age of the Affordable Care Act. The bat-shit crazy Republicans are realizing more and more that the only way to stay in power with their agenda in the face of changing demographics is to buy elections. And, of course, the only way to buy one is to make nice to those who have the cash.

Give it a year or two. They'll wring what they can out of their current white whale, gay marriage. Some will turn on this as their new demon. In the end, they can't help who they are.....it will be accepted as a prevention method to lower long term costs, which will fit in their fiscal platform.

You'll still have the Rick Santorums and Mike Huckabee's of the world who are just SOOOO crazy that they'll still be chasing the fish. The others will come around. If Drag Shows were a billion dollar a year enterprise, they'd all be wearing Bianca Del Rio shirts at the Capitol building.
You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches.

"Honey, you should never ask advice from a drunk drag queen who has a show to do." - JG

06/2002 DX
10/2006 Atripla UD
10/2013 Stribild Still UD

 


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