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Author Topic: 4th Generation Tests  (Read 54703 times)

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Offline fred

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4th Generation Tests
« on: June 07, 2006, 01:54:14 AM »
Hi,

Can anybody explain why technically/scientifically, we cannot rely on 4th generation tests lowering the test window down to 4-6 weeks.

Forget the guidelines, I'd like the science  :)

Offline Darkfiber

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 02:18:56 AM »
Fred

The 4th generation assay is looking for proteins (P24) of the virus and antibodies (produced by each individuals body).

As soon as antibodies appear P24 is no longer detectable due the p24 / antibody complexing. This is true until very late stage of aids.

The twist is, that the p24 part of the assay is not very sensitive (only around 80%) which is just not high enough to exclude infection.

Eventhough the vast majority of people have detectable antibodies after 6 weeks there is a small minority who may seroconvert later (6-13 weeks)

Thatīs the main reason why you still need to restest after 13 weeks.

PS. In Switzerland we only use 4th generation assays (with exception of rapid tests) and we still have the 3 months windowperiod.

Hope this helps

Best regards

Darkfiber




Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 02:32:41 AM »
But,

my understanding is that not all p24 assays are the same and that some can detect low levels of p24 (say 16 pg/ml) whereas as others have not such good sensitivity ( 50+ pg/ml )

Furthermore, the amount of p24 increases as infection progresses so, therefore, a test at 4 weeks and one at say 6 weeks would surely identify this increase ? (i.e. the 4 week might miss the p24, but the 6 would surely not ?)

I understand the resource ramifications, it's just the science I am interested in.

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 02:45:40 AM »
The P24 window period is short, 1-3 weeks of first becoming infected, as antibodies are produced, the antigens decrease to where they will not be picked up by an antigen test.

Offline Darkfiber

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 02:48:39 AM »
Fred

Quote
Furthermore, the amount of p24 increases as infection progresses so, therefore, a test at 4 weeks and one at say 6 weeks would surely identify this increase ? (i.e. the 4 week might miss the p24, but the 6 would surely not ?)

This is not true as such...

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/2002/TuPeC4893.html

The P24 used on 4th generation assays is not  heat-dissociated and therefore has the lower sensitivity.

P24 was used for screening bloodsamples brfore technologies like NAT and PCR have been available. Those are much more sensitive.

Can I ask what was you exposure and why do you want to know?

Regards

Darkfiber


Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 03:05:01 AM »
My exposure was, at worst;
10 seconds of unprotected vaginal sex with a sex worker.

RapidRod,
As the antigens decrease, the antibodies increase and most 4th Gen providers state that their markers for both p24 and Ab overlap.

Darkfiber,
"The P24 used on 4th generation assays is not  heat-dissociated and therefore has the lower sensitivity"

what is heat dissociation ?

Opinions ?

Offline Darkfiber

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 08:16:37 AM »
Fred

Itīs a procedure used to increase sensitivity of a P24 assay. it needs to be special ordered and is not part of a usual 4th gen test.

I do not think it makes sense to go into too much details about the technology behind the tests.

It makes things only more confusing.

Fact is that there are outliers (eventhough very, very, very few) convert between week 6 and week 3 months and since the sensitivity of the p24 part is not high enough to exclude infection.

Therefore 3 months is the goal. After 3 months you now your status conclusively.

Best regards

Darkfiber




Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 09:44:44 AM »
Darkfiber,

Thanks for your responses.

I however do think it is reasonable to want to understand the science behind the test.

When someone is attempting to alleviate their mental suffering waiting for 12 weeks to pass, it is kind of natural for them to look for a speedier resolution to their situation.

The assay providers, and indeed many doctors, talk about "closing the window" to 22 days for 3rd gen and 16 days with 4th gen and 12 days with NAT.

Therefore it is confusing when people voice alternative opinions that try to enforce the KISS mentality of 12 weeks.

Given that medicine offers no guarantees, any conclusiveness attached to a test result is surely a factor of a number of calculations. These being "risk" of exposure, sensitivity of test, specifity of test, clinical signs etc.

The reference you pointed me to on p24 was a stand alone p24 assay. Of the specimens used (33), 10 were negative against Elisa 3rd gen, but we don't know which 10 and whether they were picked up or not by the antigen assay.

I think the point of the exercise was to demonstrate that the p24 antigen becomes less detectable over time as antibodies are produced. As the antibodies are produced the Elisa should become positive.

Also there is no description as to the concentration of p24 in the serum that was tested or the stated minimum detection level of the assay.

I am not saying that the test is foolproof but many of the 4th Gen tests are rated as 99.8% sensitivity at 28 days.

Knowing whether this is an accurate rating or not directly feeds into the calculation, for an individual and their risk profile, as to the conclusiveness of the test result.

This would be true at 1 week, 4 weeks, 3 months, 12 months or whatever.
What is needed are reasonably definitive ratings of sensitivity at 21, 28, 35 days etc. for each Assay. This enables the patient to make an informed choice.

It almost seems like the 3 month test rule is dogma because of a lack of clear information as to why the alternatives are not "worth the money" etc.

Cheers,

Fred 

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 10:18:06 AM »
Fred, the 3 month rule is in place because not everyone is taking the same test. At 3 months any generation of any HIV test will yield an accurate result, excepting in some cases that involve IV drug use and severely impaired immune systems.

I appreciate your wanting the comfort of getting a certain answer sooner.

HIV is not an easy virus to transmit. It is significantly harder to accomplish from female to male. The incident you have described was very low risk. Given that it was a single and very brief incident the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor against transmission having occured.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 11:54:55 AM »
Andy,

Many thanks for your response.

Fred

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2006, 07:19:03 AM »
I am not an expert.

My findings are this....(and remember this is not advice, just findings from reading numerous medical publications)

A couple of 4th Gen tests such as Vidas Duo Ultra and COBAS COMBI do have very good sensitivity to p24 approx 3pg/ml or so and as such make them as sensitive as any stand alone assay for p24.

I still think that having one of these tests at both 4 & 6 weeks would be an exquisitely good indication of being negative.

If p24 was undetected at 4 weeks it would most likely be picked up at 6 weeks, or if not, then antibodies would be picked up. Low undetectable levels of p24 at 6 weeks are surely due to the presence of detectable antibodies.

I am not saying that there won't be exceptions to this though, particularly with non HIV1 and some more obscure subtypes. The problem is that these exceptions do not appear to be quantified, nevertheless they do appear to be exceptions.

If anyone has any evidence that contradicts this I would welcome it.

Fred

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2006, 07:33:29 AM »
Fred,

There is nothing wrong with your assesment. However, considering that in your situation hiv transmission is unlikely, testing at four and six weeks is overkill and unnecessary. A negative result at either of these weeks will still have to be confirmed at the three month point.

I stand by my advice that you should wait until six weeks to test, but if you are going private to do this, well, it's your money.

Hiv is a fragile, difficult to transmit virus and more so from a woman to a man. It would be highly unlikely for you to have become infected from ten seconds of unprotected intercourse. It's unlikely, but not impossible so you do need to test, but you don't need to test quite as much as you are proposing to do.

But it is your call, and your money.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2006, 07:43:24 AM »
Ann,

Thankyou for your considered response.

Fred

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2006, 02:19:35 AM »
I have now had a 30 day & a 53 day 4th Gen test come back negative. Todays is the 55th day and for the past 4 days I've had a sore tip of my tongue and a couple of denuded patches like geographic tongue.
Can I safely dismiss this as having nothing to do with any kind of ARS or HIV related symptom ?
No other symptoms

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2006, 07:26:43 AM »
Quote
Can I safely dismiss this as having nothing to do with any kind of ARS or HIV related symptom ?

Fred,

Yes, you certainly can.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2006, 01:27:09 PM »
Would it be very unusual to experience a seroconversion illness (ARS) at 8 weeks past exposure ?

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2006, 01:48:12 PM »
Fred,

It would be extremely unusual to experience ARS after eight weeks.

ARS, if it happens at all, normally turns up between two and four weeks after exposure and infection has taken place.

Your slight possible exposure is not very likely to lead to infection anyway. Confirm your early negative result at 12-13 weeks and put this behind you.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2006, 01:53:52 PM »
I'm trying my very best Ann.

I thank you for your patience and your compassion.  :-*

Offline fred

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  • Posts: 95
Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2006, 04:21:46 AM »
Friends,

I am in a very sorry state at the moment and I apologise for leaning on you in this way.

My mental and emotional state is beyond the scope of this forum I know. But I fear for what I
am going to lose (my wife, children, job etc.) unless I can get some inner peace of mind.

I know I am responsible for what is happening to me but I cannot seem to "get a grip"

I have struggled with Panic and Anxiety for many years, mostly related to health issues and I have
been on medication, CBT, self help books etc.

I'm not sure what else I can do to help myself.

The reason I tell you this is to try and put my situation in some sort of context and to try and
illustrate that I am not just wanting to indulged.

So far, regarding my situation;

had a 30 day 4th gen ag+ab COMBI test negative
had a 53 day 4th gen ag+ab COMBI test negative

I have had the two doctors that performed the test inform me I am HIV negative and do not need further
testing. I have had Dr.Hansfield at Medhelp.org say no further testing required (after the 30 day test)
I have had my own GP (who I explained everything to, including the testing advise that no more testing was required)
and also the Terrence Higgin Trust advise that it was time to let this go and accept my -ve status.

The only people who will not afford me that reassurance is you guys. Now I would never want to be falsely reassured by anyone
and I don't really know why I am giving your advice priority over all the other advice. ( I guess it's because, when you are fearful
you also focus on the most negative (conservative) view)

I have spent every waking moment thinking about my situtation and spent many weeks scouring the internet for information.

It was using this information that made be elect to perform my two tests 4 weeks apart (4 & 8 weeks) as this would make an
allowance for any p24 sensitivity/antibody issues and remove the possibility of a secondary window.

However, you folks still advise me to continue to get tested at 12/13 weeks.
I am not trying to put you in a difficult situation here and understand that a guideline is a guideline but it would help me
if you could explain why my logic is flawed and why the testing I have done cannot be considered conclusive.

If I told you I lived in Massachusets would you tell me my testing was conclusive ?

To compound matters I now have a sore tongue, getting hot flushes, bad breath and of course because my testing is not conclusive
I am focusing on them and thinking the worst.

Please help

Fred

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2006, 05:18:54 AM »
Fred,

Why are you doing this to yourself doll? If you lived in MA, we'd tell you that the health authorities there consider 6 week testing to be conclusive given the type of test they administer. Anywhere else and you've gotta go with the 12-13 week period.

That said, Ann told you that your chances of having contracted HIV from what you describe are very remote. There really is no need for all of this fuss. You should have a look at our Welcome Thread and if you have done so, read it again.

I'm not going to say you don't need to test again. The AIDSMEDS standard says 12-13 weeks and that's the advice I'm honour bound to give you. To be frank with you though, I fully expect you to collect a negative result at week 13. Really I do.

Fred, you're right about one thing, your anxieties about HIV and losing your family are beyond what we're equipped to deal with. I suspect that there are other issues bubbling away in your life. I recommend that you seek the assistance of a mental health professional. You owe yourself and your family that much.

Kind regards,

MtD

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2006, 05:48:57 AM »
Fred,

If I were you, I would take the advice you've been given from the doctors who administered the 4th generation tests. As we keep telling you, your test result is not going to change if you decided to test again at the end of the official window period. Your result is not going to change. Please re-read the above until it sinks in.

Your logic is not flawed, but our hands are tied where the window period is concerned. We don't like to take the chance that someone out there, who has had a serious risk, might test with what they assume to be a 4th gen test - and potentially miss an infection because they weren't actually being tested with a 4th gen test. We have to keep in mind at all times that this is a public forum and it is not just you and those of us who answer questions reading this thread.

Fred, these symptoms you are reporting sound stress related to me. Stress triggers off what is known as a fight or flight response in our bodies and what you describe are things that happen when that fight or flight response is prolonged. This response can cause you to start breathing through your mouth, because that is the quickest way to deliver oxygen to the lungs. This mouth breathing can cause all sorts of problems such as coatings on the tongue, a sore tongue, bad breath and sore throats. Mouth breathing during a night's sleep is why we wake up with bad "morning breath". Try to pay attention to your breathing. Breathe slowly and deeply through your nose and see if you don't see an improvement. A trip to the dentist wouldn't hurt either.

The hot flushes are also part of the fight or flight response. It's to do with increased heart rate and increased activation of the sweat glands - all perfectly normal during an activated fight or flight response.

There is a very good discussion of this fight or flight response available in a link I will give you in a moment. First, you need to know that where it mentions that aids is more likely to happen with prolonged stress, this only applies to someone who has already been hiv positive for years. This does not apply to you or anyone else questioning their hiv status and stress will not make you more likely to test positive. Stress is not good for those of us who are already hiv positive because it can accelerate disease progression to aids. I wish they didn't mention this because it is somewhat misleading in its briefness, but the rest of the article is excellent so I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Click here.

One last thing Fred, please have a therapy top-up so you have some face-to-face support with these issues. It may also be beneficial for you to go back on meds for a time. Please, please see your doctor about this.

You are going to be just fine - really, you are.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2006, 07:12:35 AM »
Mtd, Ann,

Thankyou for your response, I really appreciate all of the help you folks give.

I have simply never encountered people as helpful, caring yet straightforward as you guys.

I shall endeavour to get some additional counselling.

Crazy Fred.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 06:44:12 AM »
I am at 8 weeks 2 days after exposure.

I have Geographic Tongue and a small blister appearing on a few fingers on each hand.

I am very distressed.

Are these symtoms simply nonsense in terms of HIV ?

Please help...don't know what to do....

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 07:13:52 AM »
Yes it's nonsense to relate everything you find on your body to HIV.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 07:32:56 AM »
I understand that Rod. But when you're knowledge and experience is limited and your fear is great, it is fairly common to do so.

I only meant "have you ever heard of this in relation to HIV at 8 weeks 2 days"

Not trying to offend anyone here just trying to things into some sort of context.

Thanks,

Fred

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 08:57:48 AM »
Fred, among the things you aren't listening to because your head is so busy coming up with stuff to worry about is

that neither the presence nor the absence of symptoms will ever tell you anything accurately about your HIV status.

Get it? So no matter what you "notice" is going on in or on your body it's totally irrelevant in terms of HIV.

So asking us for an opinion about your latest somatic event(s) is pointless. The issue is your anxiety and whatever is driving that, not HIV. And that's were talking with a therapist or other such professional maybe helpful to you.

Of course you should also check out troublesome symptoms with a doctor.

For what it's worth, given your test results thus far I do expect you to continue to test negative.

Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 09:05:03 AM »
Point taken Andy.

Just went wobbly again.

Fred

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2006, 04:00:20 PM »
Does dry mouth, thrush, canker sores and other associated mouth symptoms typically appear during the chronic stage of HIV progression rather than during primary infection ?

My understanding is that after primary infection, and after ARS (if it occurs at all), the vast majority of people are asymptomatic. Is this true ?

This is my only stumbling block to being able to enjoy the sunshine.

I am not looking for specfics relating to me, just an indication.

Because of a history of Health Anxiety, I feel ashamed to go to my doctor ( although I've been once about Geographic Tongue) or speak to my wife about these symptoms. They are essentially dismissing me ( quite understandably in some respects).

Of course if the answer to my question is simply "maybe".... I understand.

I have booked in with a counsellor next Thursday to try and address my anxiety.

Many Thanks,

Fred.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2006, 05:30:07 PM »
We don't discuss signs or symptoms due to HIV not having specific signs or symptoms. You've been here long enough to know that we don't discuss them.

Offline fred

  • Member
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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2006, 05:57:41 AM »
Hi,

an update

I've tried to stay away but can't seem to let go.

I now have had 3 x 4th Gen tests (COMBI COBAS ag+ab) at 30, 53 and 63 days all come back negative.

All my doctors (6 of them, 3 private, 3 NHS)  have advised that "no further testing is needed"

Yet I still sit here obsessing about the fact that my tongue is sore, that there are various small bumps, patches, blisters etc in my mouth and that my mouth is dry.

I try to tell myself that these doctors would not say "no further testing is neccessary" unless they truly believed it. Why would they take the chance ?

My inability to move on must be to do with guilt or shame or something. Many men who have done what I did, wouldn't even think twice, probably wouldn't even get tested. Should I envy them ?

When 6 independent Dr's say no further tests required, it becomes a challenge to find somewhere else that will test.

I am now at 73 days past exposure and considering more tests. I am hiding my fears from my wife because her view is that I should trust the Dr's and that, based on their advice and my tests, she has no concern about us having unprotected intercourse. My reluctance to get close to her, because of my fears, is further damaging our relationship.

I feel trapped.

Thanks for listening....

Fred.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2006, 06:35:02 AM »
Fred,

We might be listening, but you are talking to the wrong people. please have a therapy top-up so you have some face-to-face support with these issues. It may also be beneficial for you to go back on meds for a time. Please, please see your doctor about this.

We cannot help you with your feelings of guilt. This is an hiv information forum, not a work through your guilt forum. Please get in touch with your therapist and schedule an appointment. ASAP. You don't have to live in constant fear of something you don't have.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Sae

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2006, 09:09:50 AM »
Fred,

Its seems you are trapped in your guilt and fear and I sincerely hope you've done what the experts have advised.

Your issue is most clearly NOT HIV.  You are using HIV to scare yourself silly, to beat yourself with, to punish yourself for straying. 

You have a few choices:
1.  You can accept what you did and forgive yourself and forget it and move on.
2.  You could try to figure out what's wrong in your relationship, or within yourself to see why you did what you did and then fix things properly.
3.  You can continue to obsess and obsess yourself right out of your marriage (self fulfilling prophecy).
4.  Maybe you actually want to end your marriage, but this is the wrong way to do it.

In any case, these are choices.  Maybe your indiscretion was a cry for help, maybe it was a simple slip up which just happened.  In any case, infidelity is very often only a symptom of a deeper problem.  The fact that you have a fear and health related history and you knowingly had unprotected sex MIGHT, and I am theorizing here might mean on some level you wanted to wake yourself up and scare yourself BADLY.  Just stop confusing HIV fear with the real issue, and really start to look at the problem, not what you perceive to be the punishment.

One repeated theme throughout your posts is that is you get one LAST tidbit of information you'll be ok, but then there is always something else.  That's a clear indication that you aren't moving on.

That's my 10 cents of therapy, now please get to a professional.

Sae.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 09:12:19 AM by Sae »
Meh.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2006, 10:46:37 AM »
Sae,

I owe you 10 cents.  :D

I think what I am looking for is permission from somebody in authority to move on.... unfortunately I also recognise that the responsibility for that, ultimately lies with me.

Thankyou for responding.

Fred.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2006, 11:41:01 AM »
Fred, I am wondering about how your relationship has been with your wife in general. Very often the kind of experience you're having right now serves as a distraction from other issues.

This is obviously not the place to go into it if there are other problems. You yourself have indicated maintaining intimacy with your wife is a something right now, and perhaps prior to this?

These are only ideas of mine. If they seem to fit in anyway, I suggest you see a professional and talk things out. HIV is clearly not the issue no matter what your mind maybe telling you to the contrary.

Good luck with getting things sorted out in the right setting.

Cheers, 
Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2006, 04:08:09 AM »
Folks,

I am not proud of this record, and I know you may through your hands up in despair but;

I have tested negative with COMBI COBAS ag+ab (4th Gen) at
30 days
53 days
63 days
72 days

Every time the doctor has said I do not need to retest ( 3 different doctors, 2 different clinics)

My question is;

"Do I need to retest ?"

If the answer is yes, would a test at 81 days be ok ?

I go on holiday on the 82nd day and with all that I have put myself through, It would be nice to think I can start to let this obsessive behaviour go and enjoy my holiday.

If it is not OK then of course I will retest when I come back (94 days post exp.)

Other than for acedemic, past the finishing line reasons, should I be done with this now. I am 36 years of age, otherwise healthy ( apart from being a nutcase ) and my reasoning is that my tests are the most sensitive ELISA's you can get, I have had multiple tests, the Dr's say "move on", seroconversion in a healthy 36 year old male would have happened by now etc. etc.

If what I have done cannot be considered conculsive then what are my chances at this stage of continuing to pull a negative result ?

Many Thanks,

Fred.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2006, 05:46:05 AM »
Fred,

You're not going to suddenly seroconvert and test positive now. Your risk was low on the scale anyway. Ten seconds of unprotected vaginal intercourse is highly unlikely to result in infection in the first place.

But you already know all this. You know that you were unlikely to become infected from ten seconds of intercourse. You know that you have repeatedly tested negative on the most sensitive tests available. You have been told by three different doctors to put this behind you. We have told you on this forum that most people who have actually been infected will test positive by six weeks - and you've tested negative at over ten weeks. I don't know what else you can be told that is going to reassure you.

Maybe now would be a good time to spend your money on getting some face-to-face support in the form of counseling before this gets much further out of hand.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2006, 05:42:11 AM »
Today is 11 weeks post exposure.

If only my tongue would stop hurting and heal I could believe my test results and move on.

I saw a couple of websites that said that Oral ulcers were an ARS symptom. My sore tongue, with patches started at 7.5 weeks post exp and are still continuing (11 weeks). This is pretty much the only symptom apart from obvious anxiety ones.

I am an intelligent guy who is very resourceful and tenacious. I thought that using my intellect and time, I could reduce my suffering. Ultimately, it probably has made the waiting time worse.

Although I have used the most sensitive ELISA's available, it only takes one person to put doubt in your mind for your confidence to be shattered.

I wish that whomever is responsible for analysing the accuracy of tests would publish the % accuracy rates at different weeks past exposure. That way you could at least have some objective measure when deciding whether to invest in a more expensive test etc. and that you could have confidence in your result.

I think what I have done, although obsessive, is pretty understandable given the fear. However the framework does not exist to support my approach. i.e. I'm on my own with it.

The fact is that the official window is 12/13 weeks and although my Dr's say that is because not all tests are equally sensitive, I can't seem to grasp it.

Unless I believed the test results and the doctor's advice, this makes all the money I have spent on tests so far (over Ģ500) a waste of time,money and a tremendous waste of enery.

All they have enabled me to do is stagger through the window period with alternating bouts of hope and fear. the periods of hope become shorter with every test I do.

I hope that this can be a lesson for someone and that they would be well advised not to follow my path.
 
As it is, because of symptoms, I feel compelled to carry on testing.....

Of course I am more than probably in the clear but ...the damage is done and I have brought it on myself.

I just hope I can get a speedy resolution to this now, one way or the other, so that I can move forward, instead of feeling so trapped.

What a fool I feel, yet it is as if I can't help it.

Never Drink & Dunk.  ;)

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2006, 07:11:18 AM »
Ann et al,

I have now had an additional test at 11 weeks (negative)

My mouth symptoms are what are continuing to fuel my fears.

Dry mouth, sore denuded patches towards the tip and cracking skin at the corner of my mouth.

The sore patches and dry mouth began in the 7th week and have continued now into the 11th week.
The cracking mouth has just appeared within the past few days.
I am also experiencing cold like symptoms (fatigue, tired eyes, a bit blocked up etc.)

I am not asking for comments on the specifics of the symptoms merely my logic.

My understanding is that, these cannot be ARS symptoms because of the timing and duration. Furthermore if they were some other manifestation of HIV then my tests would have shown positive by now. Is this correct ?

Is it most likely that these symptoms are indicative of stress caused by 11 weeks of obsessive fear etc. ?

Going on holiday in two days and could do with a rest from all this.

Thanks.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2006, 09:02:49 AM »
Fred,

Yes, if your problems were due to hiv infection, you would have tested positive by now. Your negative test results are not going to change.

Relax and go on your holiday. You don't have hiv.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2006, 09:08:32 AM »
Thankyou, you really are an angel.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2006, 02:41:56 PM »
Hi,

Well I have now had my 13wk 2 dy test and it was of course negative  :)

Thankyou all for all your help and guidance over the past couple of months, It would have been much harder without you. As well as learning a lot about HIV, I have also learnt an awful lot about myself. So as well as a happy ending, there is also a silver lining to the three months of mental torment.

I can assure you that I have learn't what I need to in order that I never have to go through this experience again.

So this is goodbye, It is has been an extremely humbling experience "meeting" you all, and I wish you well.

Ann, for you a special final kiss.... :-*


Ta Ta,

Fred.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2006, 11:06:38 AM »
Oh dear.

Can't quite get myself to fully accept my status.

Due to fatigue, sore denuded patches on tongue and cold type symptoms. (could this all be stress related ?)

Hopefully, one last time, can you guys kick my arse and tell me that my result is absolutely once and for all conclusive and definitive ?

By coincidence, I am back in Nice, France and actually walked past the same doorway where this nocturnal activity took place 3 months ago. I walked up to the spot where it happened and guess what I saw ? a condom wrapper  :)

I even saw the exact same sex worker later in the evening, I nearly spoke to her but, I thought, "whats the point". I'm negative and she doesn't speak english....

What do you think ?

Fred.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2006, 11:10:17 AM »
You're done here.

You are HIV negative.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2006, 11:16:54 AM »
Fred,

You are without doubt hiv negative. Time to move on.

If you cannot, don't come back here, go see your doctor to find out what, if anything, is going on with your body. We cannot diagnose you over the internet. If seeing your doctor doesn't help, go to a mental health care professional and discuss your fears with him/her. We cannot offer you counseling here.

You are hiv negative and there is nothing more we can do for you here.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2006, 09:19:27 AM »
So, regardless of whatever symptoms I may be experiencing now, or in the future, no further testing is needed and that the symptoms absolutely cannot be due to HIV.

Right ?

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2006, 09:23:17 AM »
Fred,

That's right. Symptoms don't mean a dang thing, but the test results do. You are hiv negative regardless of symptoms. Go get them checked out, keeping in mind that you have ruled hiv out as a possible cause.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2006, 02:27:44 PM »
So absolutely negative then.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2006, 02:30:54 PM »
Yes you are negative.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2006, 11:12:46 AM »
Stomach gurgling, loose bowels, feeling hot and sweaty (fever), sore on tongue, tired.....at nearly 15 weeks post exposure.

Don't think I can be neg.  :'(


Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2006, 11:38:45 AM »
We can't be of any more help to you here on this forum. You have conclusive tested negative so it is up to you to believe what you want. You can't change your negative result.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2006, 11:44:24 AM »
But some people do take longer than 13 weeks to seroconvert. I have suffered from anxiety/depression for many years and fear this has damaged my immune system to the extent that I have not yet produced antibodies.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2006, 11:49:31 AM »
Like I said, We can be of no further help to you. You have your negative results and that's all there is to it.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2006, 11:51:22 AM »
Apparently, some people with collapsed immune systems take longer to seroconvert. However badly you feel, however much you are depressed, you are NOT in that category with chemotherapy patients, patients on immunosuppressive drugs for organ transplants, or laying on your deathbed.

I am so sorry you are clinging to the one pathogen you do not have. But this forum has exhausted it's efforts concerning your irrational fear. I sincerely hope you find peace. You will not, I submit, find it here.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2006, 12:15:50 PM »
Ok. I can see that you have exhausted your efforts.

I am so sorry to have been a pain in the butt like this.

I think I have to do something else to resolve whatever it is that is causing;

a) my fear
b) my symptoms

Thankyou so much for all your patience and advice.

Fred

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2006, 05:30:51 AM »
My wife woke this morning with headache, sore throat, nausea etc. 1 week after we had unprotected sex.

What on earth is going on here folks ?

I am so upset and scared, I rang the Samaritans this morning, they just said "why not get another test done to be sure" ....Great, that helped...

Sorry but I really feel like there is no-one else who knows as much as you guys about all of this. But is there any possibility that my 13 week 2 day Neg. could be wrong ?

Fred.

Offline Morgan

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2006, 05:58:15 AM »
Fred,

Whatever is happening with your and your wife's bodies, take solice from the fact that you have eliminated hiv as the cause.

Your 13 week negative result is conclusive.  You are hiv negative.

Work with your doctor to get to the bottom of your health issues.

Morgan
Morgan Landers

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2006, 06:50:57 AM »
You don't think PCR would nail it once and for all ?

Offline Morgan

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2006, 07:08:18 AM »
Fred,

Nail what??

You have conclusively tested negative for hiv!  Period.  Full stop.

Time to celebrate!   ;D

Morgan

Morgan Landers

Offline lydgate

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2006, 07:35:20 AM »
Fred,

I'm curious: have you asked yourself, over the last few weeks, why you aren't accepting the fact that you're HIV negative? If you have, what's the anwer been? What do you think is a rational explanation for your irrationality (apart from being prone to anxiety and panic)?

Jay
Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2006, 09:38:10 AM »
Lydgate,

That, I am afraid, is the hardest question to answer.

My personal view is;

I want certainty in life....something that doesn't exist.
certainty would mean I would not have to take responsibility for the choices I make.
Searching for something impossible (certainty) makes me miserable and anxious.
Making yourself miserable and anxious is a way of passing on the responsiibility of being happy and content to someone else.
I am afraid of being happy and content.
The minute you achieve happiness and contentment you are vulnerable.
To protect myself from being happy, I choose the search for certainty as a suitable vehicle for invoking fear.
And the circle is complete.

If my fear was not of catching HIV it would be, and has been,  MS, Flying, Losing My Job, Being Crap At Sex whatever.
There are lots of external causes I can attach my need to. The thing is with HIV, I have conducted an act that most certainly could have led to infection and that gives my irrationality, in my mind at least, rationality.

The causes for this need are the lessons I learnt whilst growing up. Although by some standards not a big deal, my teenage years taught me an awful lot of bad habits. I struggle to find anyone with enough intelligence, patience or insight that can help me unlearn these lessons. I try to do it myself, but it's a bit like teaching yourself how to play the piano. You can get so far but then your technique lets you down.....

I hope this makes sense and is at least rationally explained even if the output of applying this logic appears irrational.

Thanks for indulging me.


Fred.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2006, 10:17:50 AM »
Your quest for clarity and peace is understandable. But, this is not the place for you to deal with your personal issues, which in reality have nothing to do with HIV.

Life is under the best of circumstances too short to spend on being unhappy.

You're right about learning the piano by yourself. You can only go just so far. It applies here as well as you seem to realize. Get yourself some professional help to sort things out with.

This is not the venue for you to do that in.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2006, 02:40:56 AM »
If my wife & I's symptoms could only dissapear, I could move on.

Now I fear I have infected her. We have two small children.

Am now considering a test at 15 weeks and/or PCR.

Is this just craziness or is there any merit in this approach ?

How many people test +ve after 13 weeks.

Thanks,

Fred.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2006, 03:37:24 AM »
Your wife's symptoms are unrelated to you. You tested negative so move on with your life. We don't want any more "buts" or "what ifs". Just move on. If you can't seek mental help from a mental health professional.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2006, 04:36:25 AM »
I just need to know that I can absolutely rely on my results thats all.

Offline lydgate

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2006, 05:03:29 AM »
Fred,

Let me ask another question: how many assurances are you going to need, how many definite and definitive responses will it take? Another 50? Another 100? A 1,000?

Read your previous response. You end by saying "Thanks for indulging me." Well, you're welcome -- up to a point. Read your previous response again. Don't you, as an intelligent man, think that you need to address  the issues you mention there rather than posting here, or getting tested for no rational reason whatsoever?

Jay
Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

George Eliot, Middlemarch, final paragraph

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2006, 11:17:12 AM »
The two issues can exist side by side.

I am so worried I have infected my wife...I really am in despair as to what to do next.

She has gone to bed this afternoon with headache, sore throat, fatigue exactly one week after we had unprotected intercourse.

Can this really just be coincidence ?

Why do some sites say 6 months to test....are you guys supremely confident about the 3 month window ?

Fred.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2006, 02:22:29 PM »
Yes, it is 3 months period.. Your wife can't have gotten anything from you because you are NEGATIVE. You seriously need to seek out a mental health professional. Instead of coming to this forum.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2006, 10:33:43 AM »
jkinatl2,

Do you have any data that details the prevelance of seroconversion past 3 months ?

Thanks,

Fred.

Offline Sae

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2006, 10:41:59 AM »
Fred,

Do a search you'll see JK has written many times on that.  If you need a personal reassurance well...carry on with the same ol same ol.

You are confusing your guilt with HIV hysteria and developing FRAIDS.  You are asking questions you know the answers to so you have a minutes peace before you talk yourself into another frenzy.

Stop it and get help.  Being afraid you infected your wife ISN'T noble at this point.
Sae.

Meh.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2006, 10:48:44 AM »
I have just finished re-reading this thread. I suggest that fred do the same. It reads like a Joseph Conrad novel, where the drumbeats of insane and irrational thought overwhelm every attempt made by compassion and science to overcome that incessant rhythm.

I sincerely wish you peace, Fred. I do not think you will find it here.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2006, 11:06:58 AM »
I do think you are being a little unfair on me.

What is irrational about thinking that I could seroconvert after 90 days and that I could therefore have infected my wife on the 92nd day ?

I am not trying to be noble.

Please help me see why what I am thinking is irrational.
If I knew that seroconversion after 90 days simply doesnt happen then that I accept, it would be irrational, but nobody here is saying it absolutely doesn't and there are places that refer to the window being upto six months....

Please, please tell me what is irrational in my thinking ?

Fred.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2006, 06:28:53 PM »
What is irrational is asking the same people the same questions over and over, as if the answers will change.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2006, 12:49:38 PM »
Folks,

I have been very stupid.

I recognise now that I must be in some way mentally unstable.

Yesterday I ordered a DNA-PCR, results in 5 days.

Today, I had another negative RapidTest (fingerprick). The nurses etc at THT stated that this
is definite and conclusive and the test is 100% at 12 weeks let alone 15.

This is all so stupid, a waste of so many peoples time and energy, including my own.

If the PCR comes back as positive, will it definately be a false positive given my negative
testing out to 15 weeks ?

This is so fucking crazy I can't believe I did it. The fear was just so intense, I felt I had to do
something.

Please see through my behaviour and find compassion to answer me.

I know I probably don't deserve any more of your time and that I have been a real twat.

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2006, 01:18:29 PM »
What ever happened you let it happen. A PCR test is not a diagnostic test. We don't ever recommend a PCR test. After 72 questions and answers and you want compassion? If you want compassion try getting from your wife. You've had your negative results, it's time for you to move on so that we can deal with people that have had a risk and have not got there testing done or results back. You're NEGATIVE and that's final.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2006, 06:48:30 AM »
DNA-PCR is a diagnostic test. It's RNA-PCR that is not.

I know I've pissed you lot off...I'm sorry.

With all the conflicting information out there, is it not surprising that people question their results ?

People want to know they are OK in order that they can move on and ensure they don't put others at risk, particularly those that they love.

I know you guys bear the brunt of this because you allow a high
degree of interaction between yourselves and people like me.

I really appreciate everything you have done for me. The PCR test was ordered because of my fears over passing on HIV to my wife. Surely you can understand that.

I can pretend to know about the science of HIV etc. but when it comes down to it, it appears that people who have experience of HIV or working in HIV profer information that sometimes differs from organisations that supposedly are there to protect us.

You hope that those organisations prime focus is an individuals health, but I suppose the reality is that economics, politics & religion underpin it all and it is the health of a population, not the individual, that matters.

Its so difficult to find a consistent single source of truth about HIV, whether it be in relation to testing, window periods, transmission whatever.

I recognise that I have made a mistake with the PCR and am now even more of a nervous wreck than I was before.

Feel free to say I told you so.

Fred.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2006, 06:52:23 AM »
Fred, where is the information that DNA-PCR is approved by the FDA to diagnosis HIV in the newly infected person.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2006, 07:09:44 AM »
Your quite right Rod, it is not FDA approved.

It is used to aid diagnosis though, even if not FDA approved.

My fear is that my body is either not producing antibodies, or not in sufficient quantity, or speedily enough for detection via standard ELISA at 15 weeks.

That fear has deep rooted, probably irrational causes. However, I have to;

a) either prove my fear wrong or
b) accept my fear and live with the doubt

Because of the nature of this disease, i.e. infectious it seems intolerable and irresponsible to live with the doubt.

That is why I went in search of the DNA-PCR, which would prove that, whatever is, or is not, going on with antibodies, I either have, or have not, acquired HIV.

I know this probably seems weak to you, I infer that from your frustration in your posts to me, but I cannot, in a single moment, change from being the person I am, to the person I would like to be.

Fred.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2006, 07:20:02 AM »
Quote
It is used to aid diagnosis though, even if not FDA approved.

Fred,

No, it isn't. It is normally only used AFTER a person has tested positive on the antibody tests.

Let's just hope you don't get a false positive result.

You are already conclusively negative and you are heading for a time out. Please read the posting guidelines and pay particular attention to the comments about time outs.

Please consider yourself warned.

Ann

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2006, 07:32:47 AM »
Let's just hope I don't get a true positive result.

Offline Sae

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2006, 09:31:53 AM »
Fred,

You really don't listen.  A true positive result isn't possible, but....aren't I playing into what you wanted to hear....*sigh* yes I suppose I am.

You know what makes me angry?  People like you who are negative who walk around moaning about being positive, when you aren't and it isn't even possible that you are.  Its a huge insult to people who ARE positive and simply trying to deal with it all.  You have a real true gift of a negative status and instead you waste days of your life INVENTING reasons why you are the lightening strike positive result.

Maybe you'd feel better if you were positive.  Then you will have received IN YOUR MIND what you think you deserve.  Problem is, no one deserves HIV.

If you paid for this latest test....too bad that money couldn't have been donated somewhere useful....if you didn't....too bad someone else paid for it (Insurance or whatever) when those funds could be directed elsewhere.  What a shame.  You could use that money for therapy...and maybe for therapy for those of us who beat our heads against the wall trying to talk sense into you.

Now I need a time out.
Sae.
Meh.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2006, 09:53:56 AM »
Hey,

Calm it down. If I insult someone that is not intentional.
I am not playing a game here.

You think I'm happy with myself ?

You think an alcoholic is happy with himself
You think a heroin addict is happy with himself ?
You think a gambler is happy with himself ?
You think a sex addict is happy with himself ?
You think an obsese person is happy ?
You think an anorexic is happy ?

Would you be angry at them ?

I obviously have problems and knowing that I have pissed off the people that are helping makes me feel shitty.

I realise that this site is not here to address these problems but they do feed into a legitimate concern relating to unprotected vaginal intercourse

apart from your judgement of me, I thank you for your response

Get off that high horse.

Now I am timed out.

Fred

P.S. Lightening strikes are actually quite common.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 09:56:47 AM by fred »

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2006, 10:06:16 AM »
Fred I'm sorry to say, you've worn out your welcome here. You have 80 posts. Seek out your questions with your doctor and seek help from a mental health professional.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2006, 10:07:49 AM »
I will.

Thankyou.   ....and I'm truly sorry.

Offline Darkfiber

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2006, 10:08:33 AM »

P.S. Lightening strikes are actually quite common.

Yes, but to stay with your metaphor: You can only be hit by lightening if there is a storm. You on the other side are standing in sunshine waiting for lightening to strike you. That chance really is minimal. But you can get sunburned ofcourse...

You are HIV negative. Be happy!

Regards

Darkfiber

« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 10:11:57 AM by Darkfiber »

Offline Darkfiber

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2006, 10:10:06 AM »
Sorry double post...

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2006, 10:41:47 AM »
DNA-PCR = not detected
RNA-PCR = not detected

I think the best way of thanking you and apologising for my behaviour is to never darken your doorstep again....

Much Respect..

Fred.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2006, 08:06:02 AM »
Due to a recent thread in the forum.....

Geographic Tongue, which I have had since 7 weeks post exp.

This shyster has re-awakened my fears....

Is his supposition that Geographic Tongue is a sign of HIV complete b**locks ?

I had just about reconciled myself and was starting to wean myself off all this HIV fear stuff.
I'm sure I must have covered all the bases with the excessive testing I have done.

Thanks,

Fred

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2006, 08:10:19 AM »
Fred,

You are reliably hiv negative.

How about taking some responsibility for your own actions. This "shyster" didn't reawaken your fears, YOU did that to yourself by coming to this forum.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2006, 05:55:08 AM »
Ann,

Is the healthiest thing for me now to simply leave this site ?

It is only my geographic tongue symptom that gives me reason to lurk.

A couple of recent posts, I have allowed, to affect me.....

There is no way the tests can be wrong are there ?

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2006, 06:43:27 AM »
Fred,

Is the healthiest thing for me now to simply leave this site ?
YES! And seek the assistance of a mental health care professional to help you get to the bottom of why you cannot accept repeated negative hiv test results.

It is only my geographic tongue symptom that gives me reason to lurk.
Geographic tongue has NOTHING to do with hiv. Have you even been officially diagnosed with geographic tongue, or are you self diagnosing? (no, don't answer that - it's rhetorical)

A couple of recent posts, I have allowed, to affect me.....
STOP coming here an reading posts then. If you need a time out to encourage you to stop coming here, that can be arranged with a few clicks of my trusty mouse.

There is no way the tests can be wrong are there ?
NO! You are reliably, conclusively hiv negative.

Use condoms and you will remain hiv negative. It really is that simple!

Ann



Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2006, 01:44:40 AM »
hello darkness my old friend.

following on from lovelifes unfortunate diagnosis, i am concerned that my similar symptoms could be an ominous sign.

it's now 19 weeks post exposure and i have a cold.

runny nose, sore throat, chestiness & cough as well as geographic tongue.

if lovelife's incredible story can result in a positive, couldn't mine ?

can my cold be late onset ARS ?

Should I retest ?

p.s. seeing a therapist on Friday.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2006, 02:13:10 AM »
Fred,

LoveLifes situation is by no means clear at this stage, but it's a good example of why surfing through the other forums here is not the best idea for easily freaked out types, such as yourself.

I'm pleased to hear that you're seeing a therapists on Friday. Good on you for taking a step in the right direction.

MtD

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2006, 07:58:01 AM »
Does ARS symptoms include respiratory symptoms such as runny nose, sneezing and cough ?

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2006, 08:49:10 AM »
No, but a cold sure does and so do allergies.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2006, 09:06:05 AM »
Thankyou

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #95 on: September 08, 2006, 05:37:43 AM »
Got my first appointment with a therapist in 1.5 hours  ???

Still somewhat convinced I have HIV.

Due to sore patches on tongue (for 13 weeks), Cold symptoms (1 week)

This is despite the following negative tests;

HIV 1+2 Ag+Ab at 30 days
HIV 1+2 Ag+Ab at 52 days
HIV 1+2 Ag+Ab at 63 days
HIV 1+2 Ag+Ab at 70 days
HIV 1+2 Rapid   at 77 days
HIV 1+2 Ag+Ab at 93 days
HIV 1+2 Rapid   at 105 days
HIV PCR DNA     at 105 days
HIV 1+2 Rapid   at  129 days

It would really help me if you guys could give me any feedback that I can share with my therapist in regards to the conclusiveness of the testing and the irrationaility of my behaviour. I can only glimpse at this due to my state of mind.

If you can help...I would really appreciate it...I so want to get off this merry-go-round.

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #96 on: September 08, 2006, 05:42:46 AM »
Quote
I so want to get off this merry-go-round.

Then don't come back to this forum. You're HIV negative and that's not going to change any of the results. After 95 posts that should be enough. Keep working with your mental health professional for your problems.

Offline Darkfiber

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2006, 06:47:59 AM »
...what Rapid said.

...and print this thread  out and bring it to yout therapist.

Regards

Darkfiber

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2006, 04:30:03 AM »
I have had my cold for two weeks now, the cough just won't go away  >:(

Colds don't usually linger like this do they ? (weakened immune system !!)

I am trying to tell myself that it's nothing, I am seeing a therapist, but it takes time you know.

Tested negative on 4th Gen now at 20 weeks.

I'm falling apart here.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2006, 06:39:56 AM »
Fred,

You are hiv negative, end of story. What ever is going on with you has nothing to do with hiv. Coming to this website is not doing you any good. I'm giving you that time out I warned you about.

Work with your therapist and see your doctor about your cold. You do realise, don't you, that stress will weaken your immune system a hell of a lot quicker than hiv could ever hope to. It's no wonder you can't shake off a cold with the state you've gotten yourself into.

You are hiv negative. No kidding.

Your time out will run for four weeks. Do not create a new account to get around your time out, or you will be permanently banned.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #100 on: October 15, 2006, 03:25:36 PM »
Hi Ann.

Sorry to come back. I'm almost there but just not quite.

I am seeing a therapist to help me come to terms with my behaviour (guilt/fear etc.) and it's going well albeit slowly.

I still suffer from various "symptoms";

Groin irritatation/infection
Spotty back/sore broken skin
Lingering chestiness from a cold.

It would greatly help me if you could confirm that there is not even the slightest possibility that these could be HIV related and that if there was one iota of doubt in your minds, you would tell me of such a doubt ?

It seems so difficult in the face of "symptoms" laced with remorse, guilt and fear to believe in the conclusivety of testing and that, at the risk of being offensive, you would not let pride stand in the way of a "I don't know".

I realise how ungrateful that sounds and I'm sorry. I guess that illustrates the state I'm in.

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2006, 04:21:57 PM »
You are still negative and I hope you do not plan on coming back to this forum and starting all over again.

Offline LOVELIFE

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2006, 08:02:56 PM »
 hey fred i can feel your pain bro!!!!!!!! im in the same vote and at 9 weeks i had a reactive mei and neg p24 and neg wbt then at 15 weeks i had the exact same results bro! i also have the tonge symptoms that wont go away and did start at the 1 month period! now my two kids and wife have the same ulcers on the inside of there cheeks and im scared shittless. the experts all say im neg but what the hell is the elisa say pos when the wbt wont pick up the rest?   
Your quite right Rod, it is not FDA approved.

It is used to aid diagnosis though, even if not FDA approved.

My fear is that my body is either not producing antibodies, or not in sufficient quantity, or speedily enough for detection via standard ELISA at 15 weeks.

That fear has deep rooted, probably irrational causes. However, I have to;

a) either prove my fear wrong or
b) accept my fear and live with the doubt

Because of the nature of this disease, i.e. infectious it seems intolerable and irresponsible to live with the doubt.

That is why I went in search of the DNA-PCR, which would prove that, whatever is, or is not, going on with antibodies, I either have, or have not, acquired HIV.

I know this probably seems weak to you, I infer that from your frustration in your posts to me, but I cannot, in a single moment, change from being the person I am, to the person I would like to be.

Fred.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2006, 08:45:17 PM »
LOVELIFE, keep all your additional thoughts and questions in your own thread. You have no business posting in other people's threads. 

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2006, 01:32:24 AM »
Lovelife,

Whilst I appreciate your sympathy, I am actually seeking responses from people who know about HIV.

Fred

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2006, 01:40:45 AM »
And we've already answered your questions, Fred. Just work with your therapist. We can't help you any further.

MtD

Offline LOVELIFE

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2006, 08:15:09 PM »
hey im not saying they dont there stuff they truly do but i just spoke to the maple leaf medical clinic and they have told me that with two reactive screens that i will for sure test pos with this next test also since i have had lesions on my tongue i month since the exposure that just wont go away doc says it is geographic tongue! ive never had this before. you will be alright i wont be but all i can do know is hope and prey that a vaccine or cure will be here one day like everyone else! hey rapid do you like boxer dogs? i have two!!!     
Lovelife,

Whilst I appreciate your sympathy, I am actually seeking responses from people who know about HIV.

Fred

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #107 on: October 16, 2006, 08:16:53 PM »
Hey LoveLife,

Is there something in "STAY IN YOUR OWN DAMN THREAD" that you have difficulty understanding?

MtD

Offline LOVELIFE

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #108 on: October 16, 2006, 08:23:19 PM »
Hey LoveLife,

Is there something in "STAY IN YOUR OWN DAMN THREAD" that you have difficulty understanding?

MtD
sorry i just thought id give my two cents while im still considered hiv neg. ill be moving down to just tested poz soon! sorry matty hey wheres your other cat pick it was hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #109 on: October 16, 2006, 08:31:42 PM »
sorry i just thought id give my two cents while im still considered hiv neg. ill be moving down to just tested poz soon! sorry matty hey wheres your other cat pick it was hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly, you are just unspeakable.

MtD

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2006, 08:56:35 PM »
Ditto, who exactly are you helping lovelife, who are you considering ?


Offline LOVELIFE

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #111 on: October 18, 2006, 01:37:05 AM »
hello darkness my old friend.

following on from lovelifes unfortunate diagnosis, i am concerned that my similar symptoms could be an ominous sign.

it's now 19 weeks post exposure and i have a cold.

runny nose, sore throat, chestiness & cough as well as geographic tongue.

if lovelife's incredible story can result in a positive, couldn't mine ?

can my cold be late onset ARS ?

Should I retest ?

p.s. seeing a therapist on Friday.
hey listen freddy boy my story is the real deal and nobody wants to help me or buy it but listen i feel your pain and trust me my situation is 1000000 times worse then you! i have had a 9 week and 15 week test with reactive elisias but neg p24 and neg wbt why im not seroconverting yet is beyound me i wish i could say that i had a neg pcr im just to afraid to do one! good luck

Offline LOVELIFE

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #112 on: October 18, 2006, 01:53:58 AM »
fred all my tests have been 4th gen and they are looking for hiv 1 and 2 and im not here to scare you or piss people off but if you want to quote my name in your threads im gonna write back and thats not hijacking not at all.  anyone who thinks my stroy is a shame can go to hell because im truley scared to test poz and like you my friend if my mouth symptoms would have gone away i would never be writing to this day! they have not gone and i am still waiting for my 5 month test to come back which im very scared. the funny thing here is im just writing to tell how i feel and all theses men and woman are so quick to jump down on my writing. listen freddy if i didnt have a reactive elisa at 15 weeks then i would be going to the home plate but i didnt so here i stand with two reactive elisas and two neg p24 and two neg wbt but the worst part of it all is over here in toronto canada the lab says im inconclusive. fucked up tongue that isnt healing on its own and sores on the cheeks that come and go in 24hours should i still be scared i fuckn think so but i due listen to what others say about me being neg but if i was truly neg why the reactive elisa when i have tested neg for every other thing out there! i really want to hiv neg so i can come back here and say thanks for the time out which sucked and also to thank those who were right from the beginning but the worst part of all freddy boy is i almost want to test poz just to show all the guys and gals that i was only rreaching out for help and answers as to how this could have happened to me? this is a great site but when quick remaks are made like ...your neg... get mental help.... i mean come on this is someones life were talking about! i put myself in the postion to get hiv not my wife or anyone else just like you did so when we really want answers we truly hope that they are the write ones for us. i prey everynight that what all have said about me being neg comes true and for you i wish the same but god gave us a dick and the dick is what makes it stick! love ya bro and hey keep using my name in your threads and ill talk to you soon!

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #113 on: October 18, 2006, 03:14:32 AM »
Lovelife, stay out of other peoples threads. How many times do you have to be told?

Offline LOVELIFE

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2006, 03:16:33 AM »
hey rapid cut me some slack okay! the guy used my name so i thought i would say some things! come on man trust me for once really bro!!!!

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #115 on: October 18, 2006, 03:17:35 AM »
Please do not post questions that you have about your own concerns in another person's thread. This is called thread hijacking and we do not encourage this practice.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 03:54:45 AM by RapidRod »

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2006, 03:57:13 AM »
I have read that there are some people who do not test positive despite being infected; even after the 3 month window period.

Many people give personal testament to this... are they all lying ?

As always it is persistent symptoms that is driving me into deep depression and fear.

I still Geographic tongue and now also late recovery from a cold (chestiness and cough (PCP ??), Big painful spots on my back and fungal infection in groin.

Please help me gain some perspective on these symptoms...

Can they all be stress related ?

Fred
« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 05:23:51 AM by fred »

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #117 on: October 22, 2006, 01:47:53 PM »
I have read that there are some people who do not test positive despite being infected; even after the 3 month window period and even when they are not immuno-compromised.

Many people give personal testament to this... are they all lying ?

As always it is persistent symptoms that is driving me into deep depression and fear.

I still have painful Geographic tongue and now also late recovery from a cold (chestiness and cough (PCP ??), Big painful spots on my back and fungal infection in groin.

Please help me gain some perspective on these symptoms...

Can they all be stress related ?

I want my life back.

Fred

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #118 on: October 23, 2006, 01:19:22 AM »
24 hours after my wife and I had unprotected sex for the first time in several months and she is complaining of a burning sensation in her vagina and an urgent need to urinate.

I am so scared.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #119 on: October 23, 2006, 07:50:13 AM »
Fred,

What your wife is describing has nothing to do with hiv infection.

You are hiv negative. You say you want your life back - so take it back already. It is in your power - and your power alone - to do this. There is nothing more we can do for you here. If you cannot accept your negative hiv status, then get some counseling.

I'm giving you your second time out. This one is going to run for 56 days - that's eight weeks. Do not create a new account to get around your time out or you will be perminately banned. Use this time to get the face-to-face help  you need.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2007, 08:48:48 AM »
Hi,

I still have sores on the tip of mu tongue,a coating and also a burning sensation.

My wife is coming down with recurrent UTI's after sex and I really don't know what to do next. This has happened 3 times in 3 months and she is also frequently ill with colds, headaches, nausea etc.

I am seeing a therapist and have had tests out to six months for Gon. Chlamidya, Hep B, Hep c, Syph and out to 37 weeks for HIV.

I am considering asking my wife to go for testing in case by body or the tests are not functioning as expected.

Please help.

Fred.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2007, 08:58:13 AM »
Fred,

Help you with what? You are conclusively hiv negative.

You need to talk to your doctor about what is causing your problems and your wife needs to talk to her doctor about hers. Whatever is going on has nothing to do with hiv.

You are hiv negative. If you continue to use this forum as a substitute for getting the help you need, including counseling, I will have no choice but to ban you permanently. This forum is obviously doing you no good at all.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2007, 04:44:27 AM »

Tested negative out to 39 weeks....

I know this behaviour appears to frustrate but there really does seem to be a lack of evidence to support a 3 month window period.

No one has ever provided any links to any studies etc to support it and we have to take the advice on trust.

This is difficult if you perceive you have ongoing symptoms that appear to be linked to a risky event.
Also, we have a responsibility to protect others we may come in to contact with.

There are numerous anecdotes on this site, and on other sites, where people who are HIV+ maintain that it took longer than 3 months for their test to turn positive, even in recent times.

Now I know that anecdotes != data but there is no data either.

I thank you for all of your help, and I recognise that I am free to believe what I want, and no-one else is responsible for this.

Fred

Offline ACinKC

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2007, 09:27:09 AM »
Can you show me scientifically proven (that being the key word) data to suggest they are NOT reliable?
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2007, 09:35:57 AM »
Well, you know, it is for those that make a statement "3 months is conclusive" to provide evidence to support that belief. It is not for the recipient of the information to prove that the statement is incorrect.

All I am saying is that if you make a statement that people are relying on for their health it had better be backed up by good science and I have never seen any evidence of that.

I am not saying it does not exist just that I have never seen any evidence.

I can't prove that Santa Claus/God does not exist.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2007, 09:49:10 AM »
Fred enough of your crap. Go to the CDC website and read what it says. If you don't like the information we give don't come here.  Go to medhelp or somewhere, where they say 4-6 weeks is conclusive and argue with them. But don't come here and do it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 10:18:07 AM by RapidRod »

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2007, 09:54:01 AM »
Rod,

I am not trying to pick a fight.

Just asking where the data can be found to support a 3 month window period.

Why is that so contentious ?


Fred

Offline ACinKC

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2007, 10:01:08 AM »
CDC
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2007, 10:03:10 AM »
Thankyou.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #129 on: February 15, 2007, 10:07:18 AM »
So there we are; another >12 month seroconversion (plywithmeplz).

Someone is mistaken in all of this.....

but who ?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #130 on: February 15, 2007, 10:47:56 AM »
Fred, what in the hell are you talking about?

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #131 on: February 15, 2007, 10:52:42 AM »
Hi Rapid,

What I am referring to is yet another claim of a >3 month seroconversion by a forum member (indeed a >12 month one).

Whilst I am sceptical of this, I am sure the individual concerned believes it to be the truth.

This contradicts everything this website holds as conclusive and I simply don't know what to make of it.

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #132 on: February 15, 2007, 10:55:43 AM »
Well it isn't true.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #133 on: February 15, 2007, 10:57:18 AM »
Thankyou.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2007, 09:48:08 AM »
Despite my more than conclusive tests (out to 47 weeks) I still have a concern.

My wife has developed acne like spots on her chin that simply refuse to go away (>3 months)

The doc has prescribed a topical steroid combined with an anti-fungal which has made a small difference but not much. I of course think that this is something to do with me and my indescretion last April.

I am on the brink of asking her to test for HIV due to these spots.

Although she knows what I did and that I tested neg. she thinks we are past this. My request could destroy our marriage of 11 years and mean heartbreak for us (me, wife and two small kids)

I have been to a counsellor for six months and this has helped only a little.

Are these spots just another crappy obsession for me or is their any merit in what I am saying ?

Please help,

Fred

Offline ACinKC

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2007, 09:56:13 AM »
Don't let your guilt affect her life any more than it has already.  You are conclusively HIV negative. 

Her acne has nothing to do with HIV.  My x-wife had a problem with it as well.  It comes and goes.  These spots ARE just another obsession and have no basis in HIV science.  But you know that already.

Keep seeing a therapist and make sure you tell them about this post and your unfounded fears.  I believe its the guilt playing with you yet again.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2007, 10:01:23 AM »
I urge you to follow AC's suggestion to discuss this latest concern with your therapist.

Bringing it up with your wife would only be a destructive, self-indulgence on your part.

You are HIV negative. Period. End of story.

All of this ongoing drama is stuff you need to be discussing in therapy. And a good therapy is not about a quick or magical fix. It involves hard work for as long as you need to go. So if your life, your wife and your family really matter to you, stick with it.
Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2007, 11:48:49 AM »
Thank you, I will take your advice to heart.

Fred

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2007, 12:21:16 PM »
Good. It's an effort worth making on your part.
Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2007, 02:53:55 AM »
Folks,

In your view should posts like the following be dismissed as nonsense or is there any merit to them ?

http://www.thebody.com/cgi-bin/bbs/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=infected&Number=227159&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

(sorry, I know it;s another board !)

Many thanks,

Fred

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #140 on: May 27, 2007, 04:10:51 AM »
Fread, we don't care what other websites say and we're not about to get in a flame war with any of them. As for the person that posted the question has a problems and it has nothing do with HIV.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #141 on: May 27, 2007, 04:36:58 AM »
Fred,

Do you realise that you are on the verge of being permanently banned from this website? You've already had two time outs.

I would suggest you seek out some counseling for this hiv obsession of yours. We cannot help you with it here.

Please consider yourself warned.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #142 on: July 10, 2007, 04:15:03 PM »
Thankyou so much for all your no-nonsense support over the last year or so.

It's finally over....

Love Fred...


Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2007, 08:54:06 AM »
I would welcome your assesment on the following;

Yesterday, I had unprotected oral sex giving and receiving (pretty vigourous, and very nice  ;D). This, as I understand it is not a problem for HIV whatsoever. My only doubt concerns frottage (horrible word). I basically teased the opening of her vagina and above it with my penis. I did not enter her, not even slightly, it was all on the outside.

She is a work colleague who has been in a stable relationship for 2 1/2 years and tested negative for everything 3 years ago. We both had had way too much to drink and though my recollection is hazy, I telephoned her today and she confirms that penetration did not take place.

Now, clearly I have a problem with alcohol, to some extent, and clearly there could be a moral argument over my acts, as I am married. What I would like to know is whether what I have done puts me at any risk of HIV and/or any other STI's, and if so, which ones ?

Kind Regards,

Fred.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2007, 09:11:28 AM »
I would imagine this will get you the permanent ban you've been looking for.

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2007, 09:21:37 AM »
Oh...I don't see why, I thought it was quite a rational question.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2007, 10:53:39 AM »
Fred,

You've been haunting this forum long enough to know that frottage is not a risk for hiv infection.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2007, 01:22:03 PM »
Please please help.

My wife has a vaginal ulcer and a temperature and a rash. Had this for 3 days now.

I promise this is not a wind up or an attemp to troll.

Could the rash be caused by antiobiotics ?

It could be I've given her Herpes. I am asymptomatic. I had mentioned this possibility but then she showed me the rash which is small red marks all up her legs and I have panicked about HIV.

I'm so sorry, please can you advise ?

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #148 on: December 16, 2007, 01:46:41 PM »
We can't diagnose here. If your wife has troubling symptoms she should see her doctor to have them properly evaluated.

Nothing you are reporting from this latest episode has anything to do with HIV.

You want a kind of personal attention and emotional handholding here that we're not willing to provide. If you need that then it's time to get to a professional to deal with your anxiety about sexually-related issues.

This is NOT an HIV situation and yes, you are on the verge of being banned from this site.
Andy Velez

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #149 on: December 16, 2007, 02:02:50 PM »
Andy,

I know how it looks but I swear it's not deliberate (in the sense that I am conciously controlling it).

My wife is seeing the doctor, and did last night. I am trying to reassure her that all is ok, whilst at the sime time undergoing a panic relating to guilt and her symptoms.

I genuinely thank you from the bottom of my heart for your tolerance so far.

Fred

Offline fred

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2008, 10:33:46 AM »
My wife still continues to have health problems. To recap;

Just before christmas she came down with vaginal ulcers, discharge, a rash, fever, mouth ulcers, muscle aches and a large insect bite looking lesions on her skin.

I understand everything that has been said, not just by yourselves, but doctors etc. as well. I also understand that I have, apparently tested conclusively negative.
But, something is not adding up here.

Something is wrong. Her GP wants to run some immune function tests.

I want her to have an HIV test.

I can't believe that nearly two years of testing, protecting my wife, and worrying, could still result in this.

I am nearly devastated and don't know what to do.

Offline Ann

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2008, 10:56:31 AM »
Fred,

I give up. I'm banning you from this site. You do not have hiv!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #152 on: January 19, 2008, 10:57:03 AM »
Can the drama, will you please! What's not adding up is your insistence that HIV is the issue here just because you don't have another explanation. And everytime anything occurs you're quick to insert HIV into the situation as the cause.

Whatever is going on with your wife has nothing to do with HIV.

I'll tell you what adds up. This is all your head stuff going full throttle as it has in the past, and all because you know you strayed and you think your "crime" is following you. It isn't You are HIV negative and this is not an HIV situation.

If you try to start a new round of buts and what ifs here you are finally going to get that ban Ann warned you about a while back.

Your wife needs to sort her medical problems out with her doctor and it's not about HIV.  
Andy Velez

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 4th Generation Tests
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2008, 10:59:43 AM »
Ann's ban crossed with my immediately previous thread. I agree completely with her decision. We aim to be informative and supportive here. It's also good to know when it's time to call a halt to the exchanges.

We've learned through experience that dealing with someone's anxiety is not always helped by continuing to answer questions when private professional help is called for.

Cheers,   
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 11:54:43 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

 


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