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Author Topic: Need your expert opinion  (Read 4881 times)

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Offline oceanblue

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  • Posts: 13
Need your expert opinion
« on: October 29, 2006, 05:28:22 AM »
Hi,

Had a massage parlour incident, where i received the standard happy ending massage, however, half way through I am concerned her vagina came into contact with my penis head for approx 2 seconds.  I was erect and there was massage oil being used.

My concern lies in the feasibility of her fluids having access to my mucous membranes inside the penis head.  In order for transmission to occur, how much fluid generally would need to have access to this area. I realise the viral load will have a bearing on this.  What got me most concerned was that she complained of being vioently ill 2 months prior( I was concerned of a recent infection) increasing the probability and she also claimed chronic fatigue( i didn't ask if she had tested for hiv)  Would 2 seconds be not enough time for the virus to infect. i.e. if the virus couldn't make its way into the membrane, would it die almost instantaneously.

I had a chronic bronchial cough prior to this event, which continued post event. However, my glands in my neck have been tender and up and still are, marginally.  Does this sound like the effects of the chronic cough i had.  No other glands are swollen, although i had a case of stubborn candida, which the doctor said, was most probably due to a dry mouth creating an opportunistic environment for the bug.

My question is 2 fold. 

1)Would you even recommend i get tested for such an exposure. (I know i am overeacting)
2)Has there ever been a documented case for such a brief heterosexual exposure(2-5 seconds) In saying that my penis probably only touched her vagina at the opening. (I realise this area is relatively uninfectious)

I am a circumcised, otherwise very healthy male.

Yours thoughts are appreciated.  Keep up the great work.

Aussie dude


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Need to allay fears! Please help
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2006, 07:57:29 AM »
Aussie, you can relax about this one as far as HIV is concerned. This was essentially a masturbatory situation no matter what the specifics were of your particular incident. From what you have reported there was no penetration but only some touching including of the vagina. That is not a risk for HIV transmission.

As far as your symptoms are concerned, leave your lymph nodes alone! No kidding. Touching, squeezing and otherwise bothering them can create a problem where none exists. If they continue to bother you or you have any other symptoms then discuss them with your doctor.

In general if you're sexually active we recommend regular testing with a full STD panel -- at least annually and every six months is even better. Other STDs are much easier to catch than HIV.

This time out I don't see any cause for concern.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline oceanblue

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Re: Need to allay fears! Please help
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 08:18:51 AM »
Andy,

Thanks for your words of wisdom. Just out of curiosity, does the penile head have to penetrate the vagina for potential infection to occur.  How far into the urethra do vaginal fluids have to travel down the head. 

I am presuming this means i shouldn't bother testing.  Now i can get on with changing the world for the better.

Cheers!

Offline Ann

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Re: Need to allay fears! Please help
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2006, 10:28:21 AM »
Ocean,

Hiv is s fragile, difficult to transmit virus that is primarily transmitted INSIDE the human body as in unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. Your penis brushing up against a vagine does not qualify as intercourse. It is closer in nature to frottage, where the genitals are actually rubbed against each other. Frottage is NOT a risk for hiv infection either.

While you don't need to test over this specific no-risk incident, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted infection.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

Use condoms for intercourse and avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline oceanblue

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  • Posts: 13
Need your expert opinion
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 02:57:56 AM »
Once again, stressed out of my mind, i resorted to an erotic massage.

My concern lies in the fact, the girl who massaged me had her vagina resting on my abdomen, and seemed to have abraded my skin from her course public hair and aggravated a day old previous healing sore. The sore I later realised was slightly bleeding(superficial) - i think epidermal layer, and looked almost glazed. 


My question is, should I be concerned her fluids, came into contact with this sore.  It this even close to a viable transmission route.  Is the skin around the abdomen, thick enough not to allow fluids to find its way into the blood stream, in the context of the superficial wound which was only about 1cm in circumference.  Would the surrounding air kill the virus, even if she was laying on top of me and creating an air tight seal.(OR IS AIR ALWAYS present)

 I started sweating, after 6 days,(may be humidity or underlying stress) - DIDN'T WANT TO WORRY AGAIN.

I know there has never been a documented case such as this, but your expertise in allaying my fears would be greatly appreciated.  Is it true that vaginal secretions close the opening are "relatively uninfectious" - does this mean you would need to have a substantial amount of fluids for a high enough titer of virus?

Stay well:)  :D

Offline Queen Tokelove

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  • Smokey the Smurf
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2006, 03:11:02 AM »
Wow! What a situation, indeed. I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better but I'm sure the moderators will be able to answer this for you.
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2006, 03:54:16 AM »
Ocean, please keep all your questions and thoughts in your orginal thread.

Offline Ann

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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2006, 07:12:25 AM »
Ocean,

I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep all your additional thoughts or questions in one thread.

If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.

Please also read through the Welcome Thread so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.

You didn't have a risk of hiv infection. Go read the replies you had before, because the answers are the same.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2006, 07:38:40 AM »
Thanks Ann,

Sorry about the thread situation.  I know its stupid to be worrying, I just started developing a sweat in the past few days, and my mind starting working overtime.  ARS - fever wouldn't start in the first week, would it?

Just tell me my chances are one in a billion OR MORE and I will let it go.  I geuss from a scientific perspective, does the virus have to enter the bloodstream quickly, or it will weaken from air?  I geuss I am more mad at myself for not ensuring I didn't have any abrasions, which could be exposed.

Yours thoughts are appreciated.

Take care.

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Still worrying - need scientific rationale
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 07:40:32 PM »
Ann and fellow moderators.

Can you just tell me I have nothing to worry about.  My only concern was that this very small abrasion was now bleeding and her fluids(vaginal) gained access to this sore. I am presuming the skin on the abdomen, has multiple layers and the epidermis which is thin, will not allow substances into the blood flow.  If you can confirm this I will rest easy and get on with my life.

Yours thoughts are appreciated.

Regards.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 07:47:49 PM »
Please reread the replies you have already been given. You've been told several times.

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 08:09:18 PM »
Rapid,

This was a completely different incident.  I wanted to know from a scientific perspective why it is impossible, or does not happen. I would appreciate your response, as a matter of courtesy.

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 09:04:19 PM »
Ocean,

I fully understood that you are talking about a separate incident - but the answer is still the same. You did not have a risk for the same reasons we've told you before. What happened, happened on the OUTSIDE of your body. The correct type of cells are just not present.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 09:28:36 PM »
Thanks Ann,

That is all I wanted to hear. I am presuming you are referring to dendrite (Langerhans) cells not being present. 

As an aside, I experienced a real risk once upon a time and I havn't fully recovered from that incident. The stress almost killed me.  Unfortunately each and every time I think of a possible exposure(even if it touches the absurd, my mind plays tricks on me. 

I want you and your colleagues to know, what you are doing is not only invaluable for the mental state of people around the world, but you  ARE potentially saving the economy as well. The amouint of loss productivity people waste due to unneccessary worrying is apt to be in the billions.  Thus I would argue, by early assurance from your answers, governments around the world should be indebted to all who contribute here.  At least if they don't pay you in monetary rewards, they should compensate you in designing policy for a timely cure.

Keep up the great work and I will do my best to put an end to this unneccesary worrying and try and improve my productivity as a result.

I wish you a happy Christmas and a rewarding and content 2007.

Regards,

A hopefully retired worried well.


Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Thanks Ann
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 10:54:52 PM »
Thanks Ann,

That is all I wanted to hear. I am presuming you are referring to dendrite (Langerhans) cells not being present.  I also presuming that infection from female to male does not occur with tiny sores(not STDS) on the penis.

As an aside, I experienced a real risk once upon a time and I havn't fully recovered from that incident. The stress almost killed me.  Unfortunately each and every time I think of a possible exposure(even if it touches the absurd, my mind plays tricks on me. 

I want you and your colleagues to know, what you are doing is not only invaluable for the mental state of people around the world, but you  ARE potentially saving the economy as well. The amouint of loss productivity people waste due to unneccessary worrying is apt to be in the billions.  Thus I would argue, by early assurance from your answers, governments around the world should be indebted to all who contribute here.  At least if they don't pay you in monetary rewards, they should compensate you in designing policy for a timely cure.

Keep up the great work and I will do my best to put an end to this unneccesary worrying and try and improve my productivity as a result.

I wish you a happy Christmas and a rewarding and content 2007.

Regards,

A hopefully retired worried well.

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 05:56:58 AM »
Ocean,

"Tiny sores" on the penis would be exposed to hiv inside the body - inside the anus or vagina. Hiv is very fragile and minute changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels quickly damage the outer covering of hiv and render it unable to infect new cells. The environment it tolerates is specific - the environment found inside the human body. A woman sitting on your back, where you happen to have a small breach in your skin, is not going to result in hiv infection. (and yes, I was referring to dendrite cells in this instance.)

You don't have to continue carrying this extreme fear of hiv around with you. A few counseling sessions just might help you regain your perspective.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Still worried - Rash
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2006, 12:21:34 AM »
Anne and Co:

I know you have given me the details as to why I should not be writing, but the other day, I developed a rash, localised to one side of my chest.  It appears to be confined to one area and it is sore to the touch(almost prickly) we have been having some hot and humid weather lately.  Does it sound like 'heat rash'

I just got worried, as people refer to macupapular rashes as a sign of ARS.

My question is: would an ARS associated rash not be itchy and would it be widespread (multiple areas of the body).

Your input is appreciated.

Merry Christmas

Offline Ann

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  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2006, 06:47:01 AM »
Ocean,

In order for your rash to have something to do with hiv, you would have had to have a risk. You didn't have a risk.

See your doctor about your rash. It's nothing to do with hiv.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2006, 08:45:44 AM »
Anne,

If you answer this question, I promise I willl go away for good(at least from this forum) :)

From a medical perspective, I understand there are many layers of fat/tissue in the abdominal region.  The epidermal layer(if the skin was compromised) would not be able to be a pathway to the bloodstream?  That was my only and every concern.  How deep would a wound have to be(layer) to be a viable route to the bloodstream in this region?

I know the odds are like being struck by lightening 10 times in one day or more and you would probably argue 0, however,  this issue is obviously affecting me and I want to be rid of it for good.

Thanks again for your support and patience, I am not a wacko, just been through a lot in the past few years.

Take care and stay well.

Ocean.


P.S -  Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.  Nelson Mandella

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Last question I PROMISE
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2006, 08:41:15 PM »
Why is PEP recommended in the occupational setting for fluids on a sore/wound.

If you say it is no risk why do they consider PEP for such exposures.  Have any fluids(seminal/vaginal) resulted in an infection from gaining access to a wound?

Would the wound have to be large and profusely bleeding to be a possible risk. 

If you can put in this perspective, i will put the rediculous out of my mind.

My incident - concerned vaginal fluids contacting a minor sore( 1cm diameter) on my abdomen(slightly bleeding) from a previous abrasion the day before.

Anne, allayed my fears saying no dendrite cells exist in this area making it impossible for infection. I was still a little unclear as to how fluids would gain access to the bloodstream.  would they need to hitch a ride with plasma and find its way to try and find a receptor cell.  This seems like science fiction.  please confirm if this is the reality.

p.s - understanding the process of the impossible, as irrational as it appears, calms the WW, minds, i think most would agree.

Keep well.

Ocean

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2006, 09:05:53 PM »
Not all people get PEP or is it offered to them in a hospital setting. I don't know where you received your information but it is incorrect. You would be offered PEP, if you got a laceration from a broken bone of a patient. A test tube burst in your hand causing a laceration. Needle jab which contained blood or a lot of blood splashing into your eyes. This is done only when the patient is HIV+.

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2006, 11:40:23 PM »
So in summary you would say that vaginal fluid on a superficial cut(<1 day old), would never be cause for concern. i.e. no testing.  not even a remote chance of possible infection?  I want to get this worry out of my head.

I am thinking this is the case, because as far as I am aware no cases have been reported from seminal/vaginal fluid on cuts(theoretical risk) because it has yet to occur in the 'real world'  - probably as Anne rightly mentioned, no dendrite cells for the virus to latch onto and even if it did enter a wound it would have to travel somehow(via plasma) into the bloodstream and still find a receptor cell.( is this correct)

In terms of my information regarding PEP, it was a question I was posing. I did read, however, once that PEP was optional in a particular hospital setting, if fluid gained access to an abrasion/cut/sore. The caveat to this was the amount of fluid, depth of wound, etc.
That was my concern, why they would be suggesting PEP as an option in this instance, if it has never occured in actual cases.

Regards,

Ocean


Offline Ann

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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2006, 05:27:53 AM »
Ocean,

We've been telling you since you first asked that you didn't have a risk and you can relax.

The PEP in a hospital setting question you are asking has nothing to do with your situation. PEP would only be offered in a hospital setting if there was a patients blood involved in getting into a deep, fresh cut on a health care worker. They wouldn't bother with vaginal fluids - vaginal fluids do not contain hiv in the same concentrations as does blood.

You  haven't had a risk. It's time you put this behind you.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline oceanblue

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Need your expert opinion - again
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2007, 10:14:21 PM »
Hi Anne, Andy, rapid, hope you are well.

Just to let you know, I am starting to get on top of this chronic worrying.  However, I became worried again of late, since by GF, developed
a rash on back and front.  Not sure if it is a macupapular rash. - Would someone with ARS develop a rash in isolation, or would it ALWAYS, be accompanied with other symptoms (fever, sore throat, etc)  She did undergo antibiotic treatment at high doses for about 3 weeks.  Could this be the cause of the breakout.  I have not been tested for the 'non-existent' risk you stated, but this new development created worry in me once more.

My risk in summary.  Worried,  if vaginal fluids came into contact(resting on my abdomen) with a recently breached abrasion, which was slightly glazed.

The only risk I may have exposed my gf is was 3-5 sec of  unprotected oral.

Please help me put this all in perspective.

Regards.

Offline Ann

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Re: Need your expert opinion
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2007, 06:28:42 AM »
Ocean,

If your girlfriend has a rash, especially when on prescription drugs, she needs to go see her doctor, not take advice from people on the internet.

You didn't have a risk yourself - how can you pass on something you don't have?

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted infection. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

Anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Perhaps you and your girlfriend should book sexual health care check ups together so you can enjoy your relationship with confidence.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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