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Author Topic: Is raw milk ok?  (Read 1254 times)

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Offline klassykitty

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  • Posts: 381
Is raw milk ok?
« on: December 30, 2013, 07:34:31 AM »
One of the things I miss is having a glass of milk in the morning.  I have always had a slight intolerance to milk (and eggs) but since I started my meds it seems to be worse.  I'm not sure if it is actually worse or I just notice it more than before.

I have a friend whose son is lactose intolerant and they drink raw milk.  they get it from one of the Amish farms in York county; while the farm is certified as ok to sell it I am not sure if that means anything or not.  She said her son has not any problems since they started drinking it.

Yes I have tried the "fake milk" stuff it doesn't taste like milk and I didn't like it.  It was ok on fruity pebbles and as chocolate milk but not by itself.

My doc says it ranks up there with sushi, uncooked hot dogs (what is wrong with this one), raw cookie dough and raw cake mix.  But he says that for everyone whether they have AIDS or not. 
 He told me to try goats milk but can't find it anywhere.

Michelle 8)
How to handle stress like a dog:
If you can't eat it or play with it.....
then pee on it and walk away

Diagnosed 01-20-2011
01-23  CD4 32    VL 125,400
02-18        76     VL 189
03-14  no cd4 test done   VL-52
04-14   69  VL-UNDECTABLE  YEA!!
05-26   50  whoopsy  
06-27   71        %-7
08-15   64 WTF %-9 
10-16  80         %7  
2012  CD4  %Thing   VL-UD
01-18  87    7
04-18  93    8  
07-16  151  8         
10-18  83    9    VL-70
2013   CD4   %thing       VL-UD
01-28  121     9
04-24  148    11   
07-25  157    11   
10-22  185    13
2014   CD-4  %thing   VL-UD
02-07 201 YEA!!!!!!  12
06-03  205      12

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 10:42:50 AM »
With your cd4 count I'd probably not risk raw milk -- and btw, Pennsylvania is one of the few states that allows the retail sale of raw milk products as I can also find these in Philadelphia, just have to know where to look. I drink it from time to time, but only a few times a year but then my cd4 count is +1000.

However, it makes no sense to me that if you are in fact lactose intolerant that you can drink raw milk. 

http://grist.org/article/2010-11-01-raw-milk-mystery-new-stanford-study-indicates-it-doesnt-reduce/

What "fake milk" products have you tried? Lactaid Milk? As far as I know it's milk that's just been boosted with the enzyme lactose intolerant individuals lack, and comes in many forms (skim, 1%, 2% etc.) and while I am not lactose intolerant I often purchase Lactaid because it doesn't spoil quickly, and I don't drink a lot of milk -- only on dry cereal.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline mitch777

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 11:32:48 AM »
Hey Michelle,

I used to be able to drink milk until about 8 years ago. It got to my stomach but I don't think it was necessarily the lactose. Anyway, the best option for me was plain rice milk with just a splash of real milk to make it taste creamier. I used to drink 1% and it comes pretty close.

m.
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 11:43:21 AM »
there's nothing as fine as unpasteurized raw milk butter
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline LoboDog

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 09:14:37 AM »
Hey Klassy,

I was in a similar state as you when I was diagnosed (47 t-cells). One of the things that I noticed back then was that I lost all ability to process dairy. The scientific community says that there is no link between lactose intolerance and HIV, all I know is that even a small amount of lactose was murder on my digestive system (with all that implies).

As my t-cells went up, so did my ability to process lactose. I can now tolerate a good amount without any adverse effects. I would simply wait until your system rebounds.

I agree with Miss Philicia (it is not wise to disagree with her)... You don't want to mess around with any chance of infection that you don't need to with your immune system in the state it is in.

To Miss P, raw milk contains and enzyme that aids in digestion. That enzyme is destroyed during pasteurization.

Another option for you is to try pro-biotics... If your intolerance is mild, they can help considerably.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 09:27:57 AM »
I think it's more that HIV (the virus itself) does not interact with raw milk, but what it does is that if you present with a late diagnosis (i.e. low cd4 count, infection of unknown duration) then your GI tract is simply a big ole mess (from HIV).

Personally I waited until my cd4 count was +500 to eat things like sushi, raw oysters, etc. (and mind you most would find +500 to be very conservative as a cut off, though most doctors would not). 359 and above is technically "normal" per laboratory reports so you may wish to consider that.

I'd be interested to hear from a European, like someone from France with HIV, on their guidelines with such products, as raw milk cheeses are very common and widely consumed. fyi, cheeses in the US that cross state lines and marketed as "raw milk cheeses" are required by the FDA to be aged a minimum of 60 days. If you buy a raw milk cheese in Pennsylvania and it's locally produced then this does not apply.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 09:34:37 AM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline J.R.E.

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  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »
Hey Michelle,

I still drink milk.  I haven't had the raw milk since i was a kid,( we used to get it from the farm),  but I still enjoy my milk daily, however Ed and I are down to just drinking skim milk, which is fine for us.  After a while, you don't really notice the difference, and it goes well with everything.

Are you still on Bactrim? Drinking milk while on Bactrim may have an adverse effect on your gut, but even when I had low tcells, I still drank milk.  The only thing the doctor told me to avoid was sushi.

I was only on bactrim briefly, otherwise I was on Dapsone, for most of the time, and still drank milk, with no ill effects on my gut.  I am one of the lucky one's.


Take care----Ray  8)
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline buginme2

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2013, 12:14:01 PM »
 Raw milk is not okay

 Just do a Google news search for raw milk and look at the hundreds  of articles regarding raw milk and illness. 

 One article said that seventeen percent of people who drink raw milk get sick from it.  Why take the chance?   If you are concerned about health buy organic grass fed milk.   That's what we buy.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2013, 01:36:34 PM »
Raw milk is not okay

So why hasn't the entire country of France croaked?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline buginme2

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 02:43:45 PM »
So why hasn't the entire country of France croaked?

Because their cows  aren't covered in shit  like US cows are.  Besides they don't drink milk, they drink wine.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 02:47:42 PM by buginme2 »

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2013, 04:44:17 PM »
Because their cows  aren't covered in shit  like US cows are.  Besides they don't drink milk, they drink wine.



Commercial US cows used for milk are covered in shit. Grass fed ones for raw milk purposes are not.

If you do the research you can see plenty of pro and anti- on this issue, most of the anti- being from government sources. It's like how to import …poisses de Bourgogne from France the French company has to make a special version that is aged 60 days from pasteurized cow's milk. The 'real' …poisses de Bourgogne is made from raw milk and aged six weeks. Now this must sound just silly to Americans that use Cheese Whiz and "cheese food" on their burgers, but this is not any cheese -- it's the King of Cheeses by most epicureans (and was Napolean's favorite).

It's all kind of like how the FDA didn't allow the importation of Jamůn ibťrico until 8 years ago, a product produced since 711 AD. For some reason the FDA doesn't like the removal of a pig's black hooves during slaughter and so that is what prevented Americans from tasting the finest ham in the world which tastes like pig butter -- and if you've not sampled this product then shame on you.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline pittman

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  • Posts: 212
Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2014, 08:36:09 AM »
I'd be interested to hear from a European, like someone from France with HIV, on their guidelines with such products, as raw milk cheeses are very common and widely consumed. fyi, cheeses in the US that cross state lines and marketed as "raw milk cheeses" are required by the FDA to be aged a minimum of 60 days. If you buy a raw milk cheese in Pennsylvania and it's locally produced then this does not apply.

While I am not European, I did live there several years. Drinking raw milk is not common in France. While it is sold there like in Pennsylvania, the most common way to buy it is off the shelf in those room temperature liter boxes, lait ultra haute tempťrature (UHT).  I did know one 80 year old granny there that insisted on raw milk, though even she usually used it heated up for hot chocolate.

Pasteurized cheese on the other hand was widely derided. (Ironic they invented pasteurization.)

The French however are much less squeamish in general on what is considered normal for food safety. I was amazed when I saw eggs were most often not refrigerated. When I asked about it, they actually laughed at the idea of refrigerating eggs, and wondered aloud if we had our hens laying eggs in a giant ice box.  One woman who had been to the States then explained to them that "weird" American notion of shopping for food for a couple weeks to a month at a time. At that, they said of course we were worried, as we were trying to keep our food stored far longer than we should while they shopped for fresh food at least two times a week.

My doctor, who is Dutch, also told me to absolutely stop drinking raw milk unless I was cooking it myself. He said that the risk was just too high and that it had nothing to do with HIV.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2014, 09:07:43 AM »
fyi on eggs and the fridge: http://www.thekitchn.com/is-refrigerating-eggs-necessary-176617

ps: I'm sure my doctor would yell at me for drinking any raw milk as well, and he's not even American and was schooled undergrad in Paris. But as I previously stated, I do not drink raw milk daily, I only drink it perhaps three times a year from a reputable retailer where it's only sourced from one single dairy farm, also highly reputable. I'm sure all of the Amish in Lancaster (and you know they all have a dozen children) drink raw milk daily and I haven't heard reports of entire towns croaking either.

My doctor would also probably tell me not to eat steak tartare. Or eat mounds of my mother's cookie dough with raw eggs in it which caused me to gain ten pounds over Christmas for which I must now pay.

The bottom line is that Americans are by and large overly paranoid about food products compared to the rest of the world, even by other industrialized countries. And, quite like the French as I do not own a car, I go shopping for food about every 4-5 days, sometimes more depending on where I am running errands. And I do not attempt to purchase everything at a single supermarket.

The French are changing in funny ways though -- when I was last there over the summer they have these upscale shops where 100% of products are frozen, and the selection was quite nice. Row upon row of glass freezers -- the store chain is called Picard:

http://ouiinfrance.com/2012/09/03/frances-frozen-grocery-store-my-favorite-picard-foods/

They really should open stores in downtown large US cities -- they'd do well.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 09:11:54 AM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline pittman

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2014, 10:39:05 AM »
The French are changing in funny ways though -- when I was last there over the summer they have these upscale shops where 100% of products are frozen, and the selection was quite nice. Row upon row of glass freezers -- the store chain is called Picard:

http://ouiinfrance.com/2012/09/03/frances-frozen-grocery-store-my-favorite-picard-foods/

They really should open stores in downtown large US cities -- they'd do well.

It looks like it may be a bit like the frozen food section at Trader Joe's, just bigger. I guess with the Carrefour's everywhere now, the French are getting more used to those big box food stores.

I still love the farmer's markets and CSAs. As you mentioned, in PA, we can still get great local dairy products. I am lucky in that we have a great one downtown that I like to shop at in the summer.

I must admit that I use raw eggs in dishes and prefer the non-industrial ones when I do.

Offline klassykitty

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2014, 12:36:01 PM »
I have always had problems with milk, even before my AIDS.  When I would complain about it at school and home I was told it was my imagination and to drink it.  I like it so I didn't argue with anybody.

 I tried the Lactaid stuff, the Silk stuff, the almond stuff, the rice stuff and the worst of them all the soy milk, but they taste funny when I drink it by itself. I may try skim milk again.

 When I was a kid and "worked" on the farm up the road I would drink milk practically straight from the cow, yummy. 

@Bug  The cows around here are in grass fields not in poop piles like in the west.  If you are a cow PA. is the best place to live.  We may kill you and have you for supper but you will live a good life until then.  I pet the baby cows at the Amish farm when I walk past it  :).  Wine is yucky unless mixed with 7up ;)

@Miss P  I love, love, love cookie dough and cake mix and I am glad you found the 10 lbs I lost.  Please keep it I don't want it back ;)  I'm very seldom paranoid about my food and don't want to be. It's bad enough my dads wife thinks everything has to be in freezer of fridge because she thinks that everything on the counter is going to go bad.

@Ray   I took my first bactrim Jan. 17,2011 for one week I took it twice a day (The hospital doctor prescribed that for me until I could get to the AIDS doctor, which took 3 days after I was dxd) I  kept getting sick from it so my AIDS doctor put me on bactrim ds 1x a day and I've been on that since then.  Other then  naproxen  I have been on everything for almost 3 years.  On the good side my doctor may lower me back down to regular bactrim when winter is over :).

@pittman  I didn't refridgerate my eggs when I lived in CO. I bought them straight from the farm, as all of my cheeses, milk (which was not raw), yucky yogurt, butter and anything else dairy that I could.

Michelle 8)
Who due to the cold weather is on her 3rd cup of hot chocolate  :), and out of marshmallows :'(

How to handle stress like a dog:
If you can't eat it or play with it.....
then pee on it and walk away

Diagnosed 01-20-2011
01-23  CD4 32    VL 125,400
02-18        76     VL 189
03-14  no cd4 test done   VL-52
04-14   69  VL-UNDECTABLE  YEA!!
05-26   50  whoopsy  
06-27   71        %-7
08-15   64 WTF %-9 
10-16  80         %7  
2012  CD4  %Thing   VL-UD
01-18  87    7
04-18  93    8  
07-16  151  8         
10-18  83    9    VL-70
2013   CD4   %thing       VL-UD
01-28  121     9
04-24  148    11   
07-25  157    11   
10-22  185    13
2014   CD-4  %thing   VL-UD
02-07 201 YEA!!!!!!  12
06-03  205      12

Offline Theyer

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Re: Is raw milk ok?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2014, 07:47:05 AM »
Hello,

I have the opportunity on Orkney to enjoy such luxury but have after checking with local GP on Orkney and HIV Doc managed to decline . One off the issues is hygiene at milking time regardless off the milk produced . As my Orkney GP said 100 years ago food poisoning was very very common.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

 


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