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Author Topic: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"  (Read 5650 times)

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Offline auspoz

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How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« on: December 13, 2013, 07:17:54 AM »
I am so fucking sick of people who admit to bare backing judging me. I NEVER DID! But I still got HIV. And I'm now judged constantly. How DARE THEY!!!

This is the shittest part. What's the fucking point?

Wanna stop HIV? Tell all the barebackers that they're poz. Then a week later ring them and say "sorry, you're neg".

Why have I got to go through this my whole life when I ALWAYS used protection, yet ALL the fucking others who don't remain neg?

I'm so over this, I could just end it, seriously. Fuck it. No one wants me: I could so easily lie to them.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 07:23:06 AM by auspoz »

Offline intaglio

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 08:15:32 AM »
Sorry to hear you're dealing with major idiots. Hypocrisy can be really irritating.

You know the truth of the situation.

Why have I got to go through this my whole life when I ALWAYS used protection, yet ALL the fucking others who don't remain neg?

The hypocisy? Or the judgemental attitudes of others? Or HIV?

HIV is mindless. It has no regard for any of us. It just wants to thrive and our bodies make a great place for it to do so.

The judemental attitudes and the hypocrisy can be limited by you refusing to allow those practitioners access to your life.

It's a good bet not all of them are neg and a good number of them will end up HIV+ eventually, too. In fact, some of them may be HIV+ but unaware. Appearances can be deceiving.

I'm so over this, I could just end it

Yes, you could. But you haven't. What holds you back is what you need to focus on.

No one wants me:

Maybe you're looking in the wrong places if all you keep finding are judgemental barebackers. Just sayin'.

I could so easily lie to them.

But you haven't and you won't. Your ethics are not their ethics. You have to live with the consequences of your actions. That's why you don't lie.

IMHO, to those judgemental barebackers, you represent the outcome of their actions. They don't want to face that fact, so they lash out at you.

You need to find people that support you and leave this bad crowd behind. It's tough to thrive in a hostile environment. It sounds as if you could use some fresh faces in your life.
Reality is frequently inaccurate.

Offline mecch

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 09:07:31 AM »
You need to separate out these issues.

Yeah it sucks if you were cautious and SSR and somehow got HIV.   But you have it.

Yeah its weird some people take risks and remain HIV-.  (Also, some of them may be liars. Or unaware they are no longer negative.)  My grandmother's best friend won millions on the lottery.  Ever hear of random fate?

If anyone is judging you as unclean.  Well, its pretty gross and you'll have to develop a thicker skin. But like intaglio says, its their problem.  OK Im not dumb, tell people you are HIV+ you lob off a certain number of sex partners.  Well, that's the breaks. First of all, you don't need people in your life who can't deal with who you are. Second, you can't do anything about other people's choices, anyway.

If you are having a hard time getting laid and/or dating or whatever you are looking for, just put your mind on other things for awhile.  As for all the people who judge, you got to get your own protection so these encounters slide off a bit easier without hurting so much. 

Long as you have some good things going on in a few areas of life, you will find sex too, despite "baggage" like being HIV+.   Also there is the pool of potential partners who are also HIV+.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 09:10:14 AM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline NY2011

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 03:12:50 PM »
I'd imagine that most of us would agree that our opinions are largely limited to our own experiences. Here's my opinion:

You aren't wrong for hating on these people for criticizing you, especially when they are allegedly engaging in something that is widely known as being the easiest way of contracting the virus they're stigmatizing.  Though, you should probably avoid taking it upon yourself to school them. Peer judgement is awful to deal with, and it reminds me of one of the first "adult" conversations I ever had, and it was with a family friend while I was home from school one weekend, back in college, who was essentially forced to deal with such judgement.  He was diagnosed with lung cancer at 41 years old, and he told me that he knew people were judging him for it, and that while other cancer victims get compassion and empathy from people, he was being criticized for doing this to himself and to his family.  Blaming the victim.  He told me that a few people took it upon themselves to say "I told you so", and though he tried, he couldn't help at times but succumb to self-blame.  So, stigma exists...and it's not just HIV, and it certainly isn't just from straight people that feel impervious to the disease. Our own community members have plenty to say about it, including the ones that aren't angels, and who engage in bb sex.

Mecch mentions something important: people avoid getting tested because they'd rather not know.  Admittedly, prior to dx, I hadn't gone for a blood test in more than a year. I engineered my ignorance just like the rest - and I thought that I'd be able to tell if something didn't look right on the guy.  Stupid, right?

For the most part, my experiences have been fairly positive re: disclosure and people finding out through the grapevine, but there are two people that judged me pretty harshly.  I took it pretty hard, especially because a friend I trusted was the one that said something, which made him feel shitty too.  In the end, you will go on with your life and realize that this batch of people will either come around or will just not fit into the support system that you need. 

I was going through a minor fit of anger last week, and someone here on this site named Bocker posted something ripped from the AA playbook that made sense: " What other people think of you is none of your business."  I found myself repeating that to myself a few times a day, and it helped a lot.

Keep posting.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 03:34:03 PM by NY2011 »
10/26/2011 - SEROCONVERSION (hi fever+rash)
10/31/2011 - CD4= 154  VL>500,000 
10/31/2011 - started on Truvada+Prezista+Norvir
12/14/2011 - CD4= 750 VL=6412 (45%)
01/27/2012 - switched to Atripla
04/23/2012 - CD4=1,221 VL= 140  (47%)
06/22/2012 - CD4=1,224 VL= ud    (49%)
12/18/2012 - CD4=1,031 VL= ud    (51%)
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Offline oksikoko

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2013, 07:49:28 AM »
I am so fucking sick of people who admit to bare backing judging me. I NEVER DID! But I still got HIV. And I'm now judged constantly. How DARE THEY!!!

You're sort of judging them for barebacking. So it goes.

Wanna stop HIV? Tell all the barebackers that they're poz. Then a week later ring them and say "sorry, you're neg".

It's a bit unfair to lay the entire weight of the pandemic on a subset of gay guys who don't use condoms. Surely you reserve some scorn for the hemophiliacs and heroin addicts, not to mention the Haitians.

HIV/AIDS isn't anyone's fault. It's just a monkey virus that jumped over to us. These things happen. I guess we could blame the damned monkeys, but they don't seem to care what we think, and it's no fun holding grudges against people who are indifferent to us.

Why have I got to go through this my whole life when I ALWAYS used protection, yet ALL the fucking others who don't remain neg?

Because life isn't fair. You know this. There's no grand accounting of anything. Things just...happen. Sometimes with a nod to cause and effect, but often they just...happen. And this, among other things, has happened to us.

No one deserves HIV/AIDS. No one. Some people put themselves at higher risk and some people find themselves at higher risk, but if we're back to thinking this disease is "killing all the right people", it's time to pull out Julia Sugarbaker again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNeh3FeU9-M

I'm so over this, I could just end it, seriously. Fuck it. No one wants me: I could so easily lie to them.

Who is it that doesn't want you? These negative guys that you could lie to? Why would you want to be with people like that? This is what I will never understand. People in these forums often complain about no one wanting them when there are 35 million HIV+ people in the world. Do we not count as people? Unless you're the only poz Esquimaux in your tribe or something, all you have to do is go find one. And if you are alone where you are, then I'm glad you found these forums.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (?) off treatment ☣ CD4 (?) off treatment
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

If no one complains, nothing will ever change.

Offline gavelkind

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 03:05:54 PM »
Think about it this way. If those people fail when it comes to acceptance than they surely fail in other areas as well. If you were negative, you wouldn't see their true colors until much later on. Being + means you get to see people's true colors much faster which can be scary and inconvenient but useful.

And yes, there's so much ignorance and hypocrites out there and that's within the liberal gay community, damn! Be careful.
2/13- Diagnosed
3/13- CD4,  885/39%   VL, 135,542
5/13- CD4,  867/46%   VL, 553
6/13- CD4,  720/42%   VL, 32
7/13- CD4,  1095/36%  VL, <20
10/13- CD4, 884/47%   VL, 42
1/14- CD4,  1165/48%  VL, 31
2/14- CD4,  1214/46%  VL, <20
5/14- CD4,  1715/49%  VL, <20

Offline mitch777

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 04:59:53 PM »

No one deserves HIV/AIDS. No one. Some people put themselves at higher risk and some people find themselves at higher risk, but if we're back to thinking this disease is "killing all the right people", it's time to pull out Julia Sugarbaker again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNeh3FeU9-M


Just thought this was worth repeating.
(I remember that clip. Thanks Lee.  :).)

Auspoz,

I do hope you were just having a moment and needed to vent. It happens to me from time to time.
I'm not trying to diminish your feelings but it might be time to change your perspective. Not easy but possible.

Some good advice was shared.

My best to you in moving forward with a better outlook, for nobody's sake but your own.

m.




31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline auspoz

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2013, 05:59:24 AM »
Thanks peeps. Yes, I was probably just venting, but by god I meant it.

Time to dig deep, raise my middle finger, and move on. Again.

My cynicism is multi-faceted, biologically, virologically, sexually and "relationally". Trying to make sense of life. Guess we all are.

Thanks.

Offline aaware72

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2013, 11:53:32 AM »
they're stigmatizing.  Though, you should probably avoid taking it upon yourself to school them. Peer judgement is awful to deal with

Here is where we differ and that is fine.  We speak of stigma and the subject here is "Clean" and when some uses that term then the reference is that if your not "Clean" then your "Dirty"  I have mention before that just because I am HIV+ that does not mean I am dirty!  Here is where we differ as I will speak up and I have.  I asked what do you mean by "Clean" and I get the rely I'm STD and HIV-.  My next question is do you think that if your HIV+ your are "Dirty" they stop a and think and say no.  I even had one person say I have several HIV+ friends.  Then I say well how do you think that make them feel?  Yes there are a some out there that do not look at it like this, however I will "school them" whenever I here false and bad information about anything to do with HIV.  Again that is where we differ.  I will be that advocate and stand up to stigma!  The only way we will get rid of any stigma is if we speak up and confront it.  Yes it is hard and anything in life that is worth doing or doing right will be hard! 



"Yes, knowledge is power. Self-knowledge brings mastery of one's body."

Offline bocker3

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2013, 10:16:58 PM »
I don't know -- I think sometimes it can be internalized "stuff" that come out when things like "clean" bother us as much as it can. 
I mean -- people have been using the term "clean" to mean negative test results for ages, especially in regards to cancer -- like, my pap smear came back "clean", my biopsy came back "clean". 
So, I do think that we can overreact to hearing this in relation to an HIV result.
Perhaps we (myself included, at times) put the opposite of "clean" as "dirty", when  it really might not be meant that way -- at least not so directly, nor intentionally.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Online Jeff G

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2013, 10:21:00 PM »
I don't know -- I think sometimes it can be internalized "stuff" that come out when things like "clean" bother us as much as it can. 
I mean -- people have been using the term "clean" to mean negative test results for ages, especially in regards to cancer -- like, my pap smear came back "clean", my biopsy came back "clean". 
So, I do think that we can overreact to hearing this in relation to an HIV result.
Perhaps we (myself included, at times) put the opposite of "clean" as "dirty", when  it really might not be meant that way -- at least not so directly, nor intentionally.

Mike

If we all say clean is fine will you change your mind Mike ?  ;) . You are our official Devils Advocate .

Offline bocker3

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2013, 10:27:57 PM »
If we all say clean is fine will you change your mind Mike ?  ;) . You are our official Devils Advocate .

No -- it grates on me too!!  And there is a difference between saying a test came back clean and asking if a person is clean.  All I'm saying it that sometimes WE (that includes me) give words too much power and assume intent that may not really be there.  And who does that hurt?  not the other person -- it is us.
Not a devil advocate here -- just someone trying to find a way to NOT let a word overwhelm me.

Although -- on a side note -- everyone where I work took this thing called Personalysis -- I did mine years ago -- turns out I have a lot of "blue" in my personalysis, this color signals my desire for more info, to see things from many different angles before moving forward AND (hold onto your hat here) -- "Blue" folks tend to be "natural" Devil's Advocates -- because of desire/need to look at things from all angles.

Hugs,
M
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
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Online Jeff G

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2013, 10:32:17 PM »
No -- it grates on me too!!  And there is a difference between saying a test came back clean and asking if a person is clean.  All I'm saying it that sometimes WE (that includes me) give words too much power and assume intent that may not really be there.  And who does that hurt?  not the other person -- it is us.
Not a devil advocate here -- just someone trying to find a way to NOT let a word overwhelm me.

Although -- on a side note -- everyone where I work took this thing called Personalysis -- I did mine years ago -- turns out I have a lot of "blue" in my personalysis, this color signals my desire for more info, to see things from many different angles before moving forward AND (hold onto your hat here) -- "Blue" folks tend to be "natural" Devil's Advocates -- because of desire/need to look at things from all angles.

Hugs,
M

Poor Poor Sid .

I sometime react to the Am I people when they throw around the word clean but other times I let it slide . Ann on the other had loathes that term and has special claws that are designed for ripping new assholes . 

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2013, 11:00:03 PM »
I like being a dirty boy. 8)

edit: I meant girl.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2013, 11:12:49 PM »

Why have I got to go through this my whole life when I ALWAYS used protection, yet ALL the fucking others who don't remain neg?

Why not you?  What...you're somehow more deserving than the millions of the rest of us around the world who are dealing with it - and many with far fewer resources than you?

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline oksikoko

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 12:20:18 AM »
I like being a dirty boy. 8)

edit: I meant girl.

I'm partial to 'toxic' myself, though I wouldn't say so in mixed company.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (?) off treatment ☣ CD4 (?) off treatment
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

If no one complains, nothing will ever change.

Offline Habersham

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 06:29:40 AM »
When someone's profile on a hookup site says they are clean I send them a message asking if that means freshly douched.

BTW    Julia Sugarbaker was my birth mother. I was stolen by either gypsies or fairies I can't figure out which.
Because I Can

Offline bocker3

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 07:33:14 AM »
Poor Poor Sid

Oh come on now...... He is the luckiest man on earth!!  I remind him of that fact daily.

 Then again, on the other hand.......................   ;) ;D
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline aaware72

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 10:34:16 AM »
No -- it grates on me too!!  And there is a difference between saying a test came back clean and asking if a person is clean.  All I'm saying it that sometimes WE (that includes me) give words too much power and assume intent that may not really be there.  And who does that hurt?  not the other person -- it is us.
Not a devil advocate here -- just someone trying to find a way to NOT let a word overwhelm me.

Although -- on a side note -- everyone where I work took this thing called Personalysis -- I did mine years ago -- turns out I have a lot of "blue" in my personalysis, this color signals my desire for more info, to see things from many different angles before moving forward AND (hold onto your hat here) -- "Blue" folks tend to be "natural" Devil's Advocates -- because of desire/need to look at things from all angles.

Hugs,
M

Yes I am a blue also ;)   For me the word "Clean" does not personally bother me, however I understand that it does  bother others.  This and other words are overwhelming and as you say a person my not have the "intent" to cause harm and to hurt feelings, but it does happen.  Should we not take a moment to ask"how will that make them fell"?  You mention that you feel in is important to be able to see things from different perpectives and understand that everyone has a different perception on how they view this. 

What I find is that there are couple types of people out there. You have a group that do take certain comments to heart and they are deeply hurt and they avoid a conversation to let someone know how they feel and remain quite.  Then there are people like me that understand how some people are deeply hurt by these words and fear speaking up as it is going to make things worst.  Yes I can get on my soap box and "school people".  However, sometimes that does not work.  I simply ask what they mean by what they are saying.  I ask more questions and then in most case the people that use the word "clean" start to realize how their choose of words can be perceived by other and from my experience it is not meant to be a negative thing, but it is sometime taken that way. 

It about questioning what people are say and trying to make them see things from a different point of view.  I grew being told words done hurt, but they do.  Depending on the person it could affect someone more than another.  As the title of this thread states "How dare they judge!!!! I hate the term "clean""  Yes some may feel people are judging you and some will say nothing.  However the more people who question what they are asking and that can lead someone to see what is being said can hurt, then the better things will be.  ;)

"Yes, knowledge is power. Self-knowledge brings mastery of one's body."

Offline thunter34

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 01:24:27 PM »

IMHO, to those judgemental barebackers, you represent the outcome of their actions. They don't want to face that fact, so they lash out at you.

I just noticed this statement and think it bears repeating. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline auspoz

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 03:05:28 AM »
Good one, Thunter. Our reactions and attitudes are direct results of our own lived experience. And I never judged that in Positive people.

And to be honest, the word "clean" is VErY offensive to me. Language is but one layer of meaning in communication. Think about the visceral and non-verbal instinct that is behind "their" use of that word. Then perhaps the hierarchy "they" are implying.

If stigma ended, I wouldn't have these issues. But it's alive and well and thriving, no matter what the fucking research says.

Offline oksikoko

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 03:31:38 AM »
It's impossible not to offend someone with almost any statement.

Hell, even the title of this thread and ďthe hierarchy it impliesĒ are offensive to me. I mean, how dare ďthose peopleĒ judge anyone, right? But I'll still offer you a cupcake at the forums.poz.com picnic. Life's too short to spend it offended, especially when the offense was un-intended.

And I hear those are some good cupcakes.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (?) off treatment ☣ CD4 (?) off treatment
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

If no one complains, nothing will ever change.

Online Joe K

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 01:18:51 PM »
I learned long ago, that the only opinions I value, are those from folks who know me and those whom I respect.  All the rest is just noise.

No one can judge you, unless you allow it.

I do not need the acceptance of anyone and I work hard to gain the respect I receive in turn.  What strangers think of me, does not change who I am, nor present any danger to my self worth.

For some folks, beauty may be only skin deep, but ugly, is to the bone.

Joe

Offline geobee

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 02:25:17 PM »
Thanks for posting AusPos.  I get down on myself when it comes to dating for sure. I think of taking HIV out of my profile (I should be more than a virus I carry, right?) but then I think "well, I might as well get it out in the open").  I never had unsafe anal sex before I was poz  (oral...oops!) and I went through an "I don't deserve this" period.  But I got smarter. No one deserves it.

FWIW, I've been working hard on self-coaching.  For about 10 minutes a day I say -- out loud -- all the things that are great with my life, how I'm going to accomplish my goals today, etc.  It's weird and I'm sure if anyone saw me they'd think I'm nuts, but it works. 

I don't care what other people say -- only I can judge myself. 

Offline buginme2

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 03:07:57 PM »

FWIW, I've been working hard on self-coaching.  For about 10 minutes a day I say -- out loud -- all the things that are great with my life, how I'm going to accomplish my goals today, etc.  It's weird and I'm sure if anyone saw me they'd think I'm nuts, but it works. 



 How very Stuart Smalley

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »
Don't you fine fellows think 3/4 of the problem is that you only are looking for dates on the internet?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline geobee

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 03:24:01 PM »
Stuart Smalley had much better (fake) hair --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-dPVbow


Offline oksikoko

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 04:22:01 PM »
Don't you fine fellows think 3/4 of the problem is that you only are looking for dates on the internet?

Are you suggesting there's an alternative?
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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 04:41:31 PM »
Are you suggesting there's an alternative?

Yeah, sure -- I've been propositioned at least four times in the past month in meat life. A Puerto Rican, a Jamaican, and a couple of honkies. Then again I have a cute ass, perky disposition and am completely not socially dysfunctional. I think the last part is the key, but what do I know?

"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dan0

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 04:44:05 PM »
What is "meat life"?
You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches.

"Honey, you should never ask advice from a drunk drag queen who has a show to do." - JG

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Offline mecch

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 04:47:05 PM »
Looking for dates online hasn't panned out for me the last few years. (Looking for sex can still work but even that - diminishing returns with each year.)

Online, people are self-centred. If I take the 40-60 year old crowd I see online, most are looking for sex only, not dates. Also seems like half the guys looking for sex have bfs already. So whats the point.

Seems like all the guys who I very well know to be close to my age, are not 50 online. Geez its 2013 and still so many are shameless liars, just because that is how the game is played (see parenthesis above.) 

They are 50, say they are 42, and are looking for 28-40.  No joke.  Its just the way it goes online.  Everyone knows many people are full of shit and that people are shameless, online.  Nobody really wants to invest much to make this tool of communication work better. 

Online, its very easy to be rude or mean to others, and to waste a lot of time being delusional about oneself. 

Since I've been single and since I've been HIV+, I have had a few pleasant dates but nothing compelling. Sad to say. These dates were people I met in life, not online.

Online I've found some hot sex, that's it.

The nature of the online sex supermarket is that it IS a supermarket and most people want to consume exactly their product preferences. Which the for-profit cruise platforms encourage and feed, just like iTunes and Amazon...  Categories of traits. 

In real life you have to engage a little bit and people surprise each other. 

In the end, I guess just try a little bit to open to people in all realms, online, on the street, through friends, whatever...  Sooner or later the next one comes along.. 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 04:51:59 PM by mecch »
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Dan0

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 05:23:28 PM »

Online, people are self-centred. If I take the 40-60 year old crowd I see online, most are looking for sex only, not dates. Also seems like half the guys looking for sex have bfs already. So whats the point.


I'd say that about 90% of the guys on-line on the major markets fall into the category of rude, condescending, flippant, etc. - exactly what you called out. 

I do know of a small number of guys who DID actually find long-term partners on line!  Myself included.  What I also find is that when you meet this way, you usually tend to be very crafty when someone who is politely inquisitive asks, "Where did you meet?".  Usually you don't blurt out, "We met in the bondage section of Recon! (j/k)"  It just opens up all the other questions from the gays and the straights.  We prefer to say "Starbucks!"  Reasonable, mainstream and no questions asked! But you do end up perpetuating this.  I think that there are a LOT more 'couples' who met on line that we generally know about. This leaves that 90% to stand out all the more.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 05:33:42 PM by Dan0 »
You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches.

"Honey, you should never ask advice from a drunk drag queen who has a show to do." - JG

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Offline OneTampa

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 06:19:16 PM »
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaŪto frito."

Offline gavelkind

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 07:39:12 PM »
People probably have so many different meanings and reasons for their words that it's dumb to take seriously in the long run. I think when I first started posting here or another site I described myself as "pos". At the time "poz" seemed more threatening, more real, and "pos" sounded gentle to me so I used it freely to describe myself and other + people. Than someone got offended and told me that "pos" meant "piece of shit" and acted like I should've known that. After that the word stopped being gentle to me, but that guy was really offended by it.

I've always heard guys use the word clean and it usually came from bottoms, so to me it had a different meaning. It doesn't offend me but know it does with others.

Or go the Miss Philicia route and own it and mock them with it! They call you a dirty mean word? Turn that word into something empowering and the haters lose control over it and you. Even if it's just mental dialogue and you don't actually say it.
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Offline oksikoko

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2013, 07:37:06 AM »
We prefer to say "Starbucks!"  Reasonable, mainstream and no questions asked! But you do end up perpetuating this.  I think that there are a LOT more 'couples' who met on line that we generally know about. This leaves that 90% to stand out all the more.

Reasonable? I dunno. If someone told me they met their partner at Starbucks I would immediately assume they met on Nasty Kink Pigs. No one meets new people at Starbucks. How would that even happen logistically?
Code: [Select]
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2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
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2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
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Online Jeff G

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2013, 08:10:42 AM »
This is a so Im told story because I don't go out to bars or clubs anymore, I have gone out once in 5 years now . I had a few 20 to 25 year old gay men tell me that they really see no reason to go to a gay bar, if they want to go out any bar will do . They said the internet and their social circle is where they meet dates husbands and hookups .

In the 80's and 90's there were at least a half a dozen gay clubs that were pretty much full every night and packed on the weekend . There was a real sense of community back then that is no longer in my city .

I took a friend and forum member out for a Birthday dinner and we went out for an early drink afterward and I talked to guy who said there are only two bars in town now and that they both struggle and he said the internet changed things . I'm not lamenting the fact there are no gay bars but I did find it interesting how much things have changed since Aids and the internet . I got HIV from drinking too much and picking a guy up at a bar one weekend and some of the young gay men I talk to now got HIV from PNP and the internet .   

Offline Dan0

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2013, 08:23:16 AM »
Reasonable? I dunno. If someone told me they met their partner at Starbucks I would immediately assume they met on Nasty Kink Pigs. No one meets new people at Starbucks. How would that even happen logistically?

Up here - the Starbucks are the 'computer lab' of college!  Every one that you go into has all the tables occupied by people with their laptop, Ipad or whatever.  There are usually more people in a given Starbucks late at night than at any of the (now drastically reduced) number of bars in the area.  Starbucks is the place now to MEET your blind date, Troll for dates .... and when it doesn't work out....the phrase, "Let's go to Starbucks....my treat...." has an ominous ring to it and we all know EXACTLY where this relationship is going. And....where it will end! There is one that a friend of mine simply cannot go into because it was the SCENE OF THE CRIME where he was dumped.

I think in our city, we've lost 3/4 of the bars in the past 8 years.  We now have 6 primarily 'gay bars' ranging from huge to incredibly small in a city that is one of the top 25 metropolitan areas of the country. They are our new version of the gay bar.  So, instead of shots of Snakebite and Butterball, they opt for latte.  It helps that for some reason they also only hire HOT Barristas. There is one on every corner and every part of the city has one so its an easy reference point if you want to meet up from a conversation on Grindr and find some neutral territory in the event that his picture on Grindr is from 1991.  I think in Minnesota, they're called "Caribou Coffee".  Same thing!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 08:28:04 AM by Dan0 »
You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world, and there's still going to be somebody who hates peaches.

"Honey, you should never ask advice from a drunk drag queen who has a show to do." - JG

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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2013, 08:26:26 AM »
If someone told me they met their partner at Starbucks I would immediately assume they met on Nasty Kink Pigs.

I cherish you.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Online Jeff G

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2013, 08:34:36 AM »
I'm now going to have to go look see if there is a nasty kink pig website .

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 08:35:28 AM »
This is a so Im told story because I don't go out to bars or clubs anymore, I have gone out once in 5 years now . I had a few 20 to 25 year old gay men tell me that they really see no reason to go to a gay bar, if they want to go out any bar will do . They said the internet and their social circle is where they meet dates husbands and hookups .

In the 80's and 90's there were at least a half a dozen gay clubs that were pretty much full every night and packed on the weekend . There was a real sense of community back then that is no longer in my city .

I took a friend and forum member out for a Birthday dinner and we went out for an early drink afterward and I talked to guy who said there are only two bars in town now and that they both struggle and he said the internet changed things . I'm not lamenting the fact there are no gay bars but I did find it interesting how much things have changed since Aids and the internet . I got HIV from drinking too much and picking a guy up at a bar one weekend and some of the young gay men I talk to now got HIV from PNP and the internet .   

That kind of happened here, but then things stabilized and we actually have a new "Irish Pub" themed gay bar opening next year, and another swanky gay cocktail lounge opened this year; all downtown. It's the small gay bars out in the suburbs that have closed for good.

I think urban gays still appreciate the social aspect of "going out" and use the internet for take out food and quick nameless fucks, that is if they're not holed up at the two sex clubs one of which was just renovated and is supposedly back to booming (not that I go, naturally). But yes, also gay people go to all the other trendy straight bars and all of the downtown ones are welcoming and don't blink an eye at two men or two women together. In fact, I always seem to get great service from straight bartenders and a lot of chattiness -- ask Mitchypoo, she saw it in action.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline wolfter

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2013, 08:39:21 AM »
I had a few 20 to 25 year old gay men tell me that they really see no reason to go to a gay bar, if they want to go out any bar will do .

I've mentioned this before, I've been hit on as much in straight bars as gay bars.  Since I still find my prey the old fashioned way, I just keep a keen eye open.  Besides, I never really got into the internet hook up thingy and prefer to let my personality shine through.

And perhaps it's an age thing, as most men I've met of late aren't all that shocked by someone being pos.  It wasn't a deal breaker for any of the gentlemen callers I met in Chicago.  One of them was met at the beach and my ever observant eyes honed it.  The ones I met in the bar knew my status before wasting my time leaving with them.   :o
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Online Jeff G

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2013, 08:45:22 AM »
I was at a party last Friday that hundreds of people were at and I asked a straight guy to slow dance . I was kind of joking but he said sure, why not and after that a lot of people all got up and started dancing . Its off the topic but it was a funny moment .   

Offline mitch777

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2013, 08:58:27 AM »
In fact, I always seem to get great service from straight bartenders and a lot of chattiness -- ask Mitchypoo, she saw it in action.

Oh I can attest to that. There's a lot of chattiness wherever Miss P. goes.

Seriously though, she rambled on in depth everywhere we went. With the woman at her favorite tea shop, the owner of a relatively new restaurant, the bartender that had $175. per once bourbon available, the bartender that also served us our meal and gave us a free hores da erving.

Food and booze chat is like pillow talk to her I think. Somehow it seems to work. :)
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2013, 09:20:05 AM »
I'm just naturally charming, personable and friendly -- contrary to what is depicted here by my legions of detractors. :P
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline denb45

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2013, 10:09:13 AM »
Hey Jeff

for some odd reason, I seem to have more str8 men as friends

I'm not saying that i don't have gay friends, but the latter out

numbers anything else, I guess most of em' are just looking

for a non-sexual bro-mance (so to speak)

sexual preference really doesn't mean much

now-a-days, and most people aren't afraid of HIV/AIDS

I do however find a lot of folks are just lonely

and in need of human contact

 
HUGS

DEN
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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2013, 03:45:15 PM »
I'm now going to have to go look see if there is a nasty kink pig website .

Um, you might not wanna do that. Take some antibiotics with you if you must.

And "cherished"?! :D
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (?) off treatment ☣ CD4 (?) off treatment
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
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Offline aaware72

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2013, 08:52:50 PM »
"Yes, knowledge is power. Self-knowledge brings mastery of one's body."

Offline auspoz

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2014, 05:28:13 AM »
Glad so many have a point of view on this.

Here in Australia, I feel like a fucking leper. "I don't fuck poz guys" is common, both explicitly and implicitly.

I just want to highlight that stigma, judgment and rejection are context-specific.

I often feel that they'd rather date and root a goat than a great guy who happened to get HIV.

Things are VERY different here.

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2014, 09:36:13 AM »
I don't know what to say about that, auspoz -- we've had umpteen forum members (gay) from Australia here over the years and they all seem to get laid without issue. Most lived in Sydney though so perhaps it's regional -- Australia is a large place, of course.

However, almost 90% of the population there is urbanized compared with less in the US so one would assume that would make life easier for an HIV+ individual. If you are limiting yourself to internet hook up sites then you are going to encounter unsavory comments from uncouth cocksuckers -- it's like writing grafitti on a restroom toilet partition about Betty Sue "giving good blow jobs 777-503-8065" you know. It's anonymous and folks are mean -- they're probably in the closet anyway so fuck them, you know?

My best suggestion is that if you live in an urban/suburban setting then get involved in an HIV-oriented organization and you'll end up meeting some kindred soul. No use exposing yourself repeatedly to the type of language that is eating you up -- that does no good.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

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Re: How dare they judge!!! I hate the term "clean"
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2014, 09:50:33 AM »
I don't know what to say about that, auspoz -- we've had umpteen forum members (gay) from Australia here over the years and they all seem to get laid without issue. Most lived in Sydney though so perhaps it's regional -- Australia is a large place, of course.

However, almost 90% of the population there is urbanized compared with less in the US so one would assume that would make life easier for an HIV+ individual. If you are limiting yourself to internet hook up sites then you are going to encounter unsavory comments from uncouth cocksuckers -- it's like writing grafitti on a restroom toilet partition about Betty Sue "giving good blow jobs 777-503-8065" you know. It's anonymous and folks are mean -- they're probably in the closet anyway so fuck them, you know?

My best suggestion is that if you live in an urban/suburban setting then get involved in an HIV-oriented organization and you'll end up meeting some kindred soul. No use exposing yourself repeatedly to the type of language that is eating you up -- that does no good.

Matty gets laid all the time and he lives in fucking Boolaboolabongbong.

 


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