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Author Topic: It's time to raise the minimum wage  (Read 5385 times)

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Offline BT65

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2013, 04:15:09 AM »
Not everyone has the same chance, I don't buy the "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" idea.  I see it often, and I'm sure it repeats throughout the country.  Young kids with no father around, mother busy doing her own thing, whether that be addiction or prostitution, and the kids end up hanging out with their friends.  They notice their friends have all this "stuff" that they are getting picked on for not having, want to have, then go the way their friends go-crime.  Then they get arrested and end up a life long criminal because the criminal justice system is so broken. 

And no, if someone has a drug offense (s)he cannot get federal student aide, nor food stamps.  Which is ridiculous, don't they want people to change their lives?  Why can a child molester get food stamps and a pell grant, and not a drug offender?

Mentors are needed, terribly.  One of my clients is a single mother, probably about 22 or 23 years old, from the projects in Chicago (her mother is still in the projects there).  She doesn't have a high school diploma, and is on SSI due to emotional problems.  I'm attempting to help her get her GED, and take some basic home ec classes, for which she will get a reward.  Then we'll work on either her working, or pursuing a higher education.

People need to get involved if they want to see change, just like any other issue.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Online mecch

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2013, 04:38:21 AM »
This is a argument about world views and ideology, rather than statistics. Which is unfortunate.  Because the statistics bear out the view that, for a country that is very very wealthy, there isn't enough spread of the wealth, and there isn't enough opportunity for everyone to make a decent life through hard work.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/equal-opportunity-our-national-myth/

In 1980, CEO pay was 42 times average pay in the US. (Not minimum wage - but average pay).  Today it is about 350x.

I say fine, let the US produce millionaires and billionaires. I have worked for the super rich personally and have no grudge about the super rich as a group.

The swiss just voted down a cap on compensation levels, but it was really draconian: 1-12.  That was never going to work! Ridiculous.  But 1-350?  And that, again, is AVERAGE to top. Not minimum to top.

If the movers and shakers making these zillions in compensation are so brilliant, they can figure out a way for their compensation to remain QUITE generous but without keeping vast swaths of workers among the "working poor." 

Again, 6 Walmart Heirs have more wealth than the combined wealth of 42% of Americans. 

Its the largest employer and the employees get bupkis.  They can't afford a Thanksgiving dinner.  They need food stamps to feed themselves and their families.

Like national health care, its a paradigm shift that must be affected.  The myth of equal  opportunity and "everyone is middle-class" is dead dead dead dead dead.

Obama was great and now we need ANOTHER leader who will tackle low wages in the US.
Again, these people are doing hard work, honest work, and if you think its easy to hold it all together as a poor person and do your job, supposedly "unskilled", and do it well, then its just incredibly insulting to consider these jobs and this labour as not valuable.

In so many instances, it is all that is available and it is real work for crissakes. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline denb45

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2013, 09:40:36 AM »
How about doing like most people. If you don't like the pay, you find a better paying job. If the pay you need requires more training go get the training you need to get the income you desire.

" EXACTLY "  go back to school, set some goals

  advance or update your skill level  :D

HUGS

DEN
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline WillyWump

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2013, 09:52:50 AM »
Yes Willy there are.  Bill Gates,

Another CEO I like is the CEO of Starbucks.  ). 

Another CEO I like is the CEO of Costco. 

Good examples. But I wonder what Gates paid the dishwashers and cooks at the Microsoft cafeterias.


However -- I have to answer your question.  My mother was making minimum wage or slightly above and getting some state assistance -- yet I managed to find a way to pay for 4 yrs of college.  Scholarships, grants and, yes, lots of student loans paid the first year.  Then an ROTC scholarship paid the last 3.  I worked while going and in the summers.  Two years I was a Resident Assistant to pay for room and board.  So -- even the poor can find a way if they have the support they need from family and school (which not everyone has).  I went to graduate school on my employer's dime -- took longer than I'd liked it to, but I did it.

Oh -- and even though I initially went into default -- I paid back every cent of my student loans too.  Worked a full-time and two part--time jobs in order to do so.

Saying the poor can't go to college is, to steal your quote, PROPAGANDA, not to mention a bit demeaning and classist.  I started poor, but I found a way out.

Mike

This sounds almost spot on to my life, no one paid for my college and it took me 8 years to get just a bachelors, and I worked the entire time, although my grandma helped me the last year (probably because she was embarrassed it was taking me so long)


And no, if someone has a drug offense (s)he cannot get federal student aide, nor food stamps.  Which is ridiculous, don't they want people to change their lives?  Why can a child molester get food stamps and a pell grant, and not a drug offender?


Yes, I agree with this wholeheartedly, someone makes a mistake pays for it and is punished repeatedly afterwards. This needs to be changed
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 09:59:59 AM by WillyWump »
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2013, 10:01:37 AM »
So whats the verdict folks . Yes or no to a living wage ?

Online mecch

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2013, 10:06:53 AM »
I think its tangential to talk about ones own personal Horatio Alger story. Also I think its not constructive to divide the population between those who went to college (however bootstrapping and commendable) and those who didn't, as if all those who didn't now deserve poverty wages. 
The thing to do is to look at the working population and the jobs available, and the wealth produced (the GNP) and do a resort so that nobody is scraping by in extreme hardship despite going to work 40 hours a week and doing well on the job.  Labour is labour is labour.
Not everyone has the same intellect.
Not everyone has the same shrewdness.
And many many people never got skills because their schools and families failed them.

You, know, I don't care how dumb or uneducated someone is. I don't care how many mistakes someone makes in their life and is reentering the job market with little skills. 

Seems to me, you show up for work on time, regularly, rain sleet or snow, you become a valued member of the team, and people trust you, and you provide a good service or turn out good product or whatever your task is, this deserves that holy grail:  "the living wage".




« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 10:09:57 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline leatherman

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2013, 10:17:48 AM »
The Yes most people don't like facts and don't want to push themselves to get ahead. Everyone has the same opportunity to get ahead it takes work and determination. It all depends on the person.
it's incorrect opinions (not "facts". the facts clearly show a large and growing income disparity in our country that has nothing to do with productivity) like this which makes this situation so difficult to resolve. As long as people believe the false notion that the "have nots" are simply lazy - and not trapped in social/financial quagmires - the 47% will never be treated properly. Instead the greedy robber barons will continue to be able to basically enslave the serfs while they destroy any sembelance of "middle class" in our country.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone.
There's a grief that can't be spoken.
There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables
Where my friends will meet no more.

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Offline denb45

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2013, 10:24:10 AM »
So whats the verdict folks . Yes or no to a living wage ?
 

YES on a living wage  8)

depends on the geographical area and what the local economy will allow

as i stated before, $8.25, $10.25 somewhere about there is a good place to start, other area's and amounts my vary widely

HUGS

DEN
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Jeff G

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2013, 10:44:56 AM »
 

YES on a living wage  8)

depends on the geographical area and what the local economy will allow

as i stated before, $8.25, $10.25 somewhere about there is a good place to start, other area's and amounts my vary widely

HUGS

DEN

But that is not a living wage .

Offline denb45

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2013, 10:57:30 AM »
Well that 10.25 per hour is only in Santa Fe, NM, however some job titles here in ABQ do pay that 10.25 per hour or more,

but that depends on the skill level, like a security guard, armored car service personnel, all of these jobs require a State license and a clean criminal record, and also a good credit rating, before they will even hire you  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2013, 11:54:29 AM »

And no, if someone has a drug offense (s)he cannot get federal student aide, or pursuing a higher education.



Just for clarification --- a drug offense only prevents a person from getting student aid if the offense occurs while the person was receiving student aid. Also, even if it occurs while receiving student aid, the person can have his/her eligiblity restored:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/eligibility/criminal-convictions

September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline buginme2

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2013, 12:10:09 PM »
Regarding the previous mention that you can work and put yourselves through school.  I understand many did here but one thing to consider is,  when was this?   How long ago and what was tuition costs back then?

 The cost of tuition at most state schools has increased so much it's  unaffordable  for many.  I just checked my state school,  the University of Washington.   The cost for one year of school for 2013 is $27,034

 That's    total of $108,000.    Could you still   put yourself through school today?

 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 12:16:32 PM by buginme2 »
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2013, 12:21:26 PM »
Miami Dade College

http://www.mdc.edu/main/academics/tuition.aspx

Associate Degree Cost per term: $1,370 (in-state, resident)
Bachelors Degree Cost per term: $1,510 (in-state, resident)

Both above are for 12-credit term

Oh, Career and Vocational Education:
$1,092 - 12-credit term

Adult Basic Education:
$31.50 total cost

Most students qualify for financial aid for the credit (degree) programs....(Pell, work study, American Dream, Brighter Futures, student loans). The American Dream Scholarship is really amazing: http://www.mdc.edu/main/americandream/

And, if a student completes an associates degree at MDC, he/she is guaranteed admission into a Florida University: http://www.mdc.edu/getin/

Seems "do-able" to me...

And Florida International University (FIU):

http://admissions.fiu.edu/costs-and-aid/index.html

Fall and Spring Term total matriculation: $6,506.18 (covers 30 credits)
Assuming 4 years =$26,024
Florida resident, in-state rate
(Per credit is $203 and change)

Financial aid available (Pell, Florida Brighter Futures, work study, student loans)

Federal Pell Grant maximum amount is: The maximum Pell grant for the 2011-12 award year (July 1, 2011, to June 30, 2012) is $5,550. This would more than cover MDC tuition.... It would almost completely cover FIU tuition (except for less than $1,000).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 12:32:03 PM by phildinftlaudy »
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline BT65

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2013, 06:43:43 PM »
I put myself through school.  It is expensive, but my parents sure couldn't afford it. 
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline tednlou2

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2013, 06:47:44 PM »
Just for clarification --- a drug offense only prevents a person from getting student aid if the offense occurs while the person was receiving student aid. Also, even if it occurs while receiving student aid, the person can have his/her eligiblity restored:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/eligibility/criminal-convictions

Then, they've changed the law.  Thats some good news, if they have relaxed those rules.  I know the FAFSA use to ask whether you have ever been convicted of a drug related crime-- not just while in school, but before that.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2013, 06:53:22 PM »
    Could you still   put yourself through school today?

Yes.

My cousins 19yo son is doing it now. He works at Outback Steak house AND Olive garden and took 9 hours this semester at UTSA. No, it's not fulltime at school but you do what you gotta do.
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6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
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8/9/12, CD4 not taken, UD.
2/13/12, CD4- 904, UD 42%

Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Online mecch

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2013, 07:21:19 PM »
I still think this talk of college education is tangential to the discussion.  Of course lots of people show tenacity and grit and get themselves college degrees but we can't expect this to be the only route out of the working poor.  Nor, in my opinion, should it be, in a rich country. (Furthermore, leaving off the the many mine fields of abusive for profit "higher" ed schools, student loans nightmares for worthless degrees, and a tight job market for average folks graduating with average degrees, anyway.)

Why is it someone can work over 5 years at a place like Walmart and be a good employee and earn 10 bucks an hour?  Oh, their own damn fault, cause they didn't go to college?

http://www.msnbc.com/the-ed-show/leaked-document-shows-what-walmart-really-pay
The document [PDF], first obtained by the Huffington Post, shows that Walmart workers can earn a base pay as low as $8.00, and earn wage increases in increments as low as 20 or 40 cents.  ”As a result, a ‘solid performer’ who starts at Walmart as a cart pusher making $8 an hour and receives one promotion, about the average rate, can expect to make $10.60 after working at the company for 6 years,” according to Huffington Post reporters Alice Hines and Christina Wilkie.

Have a look at this easy to read comparison table:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/06/news/economy/costco-fast-food-strikes/

Worker wages: Wendy's vs. Wal-Mart vs. Costco
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline wolfter

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2013, 07:29:37 PM »
At first I thought the education debate was going off topic.  Since I've done nothing productive today, I took time to consider different views.  Education is the antithesis of raising the minimum wage.

I worked as a remediation specialist for the county when the welfare system was overhauled.  It required that all recipients whose children were all school aged either work hours for their benefits or actively participate in furthering their education.  I was a glorified tutor that prepared adults to obtain their GED's or simply brush up the basics.

I worked with many clients who also made the claims that college was too expensive and they didn't have the resources needed to attend.  I asked everyone of them the same questions; "which schools have you checked into and what did the financial aid advisor suggest"?  None of them had done the necessary research to even think about attending college.

I didn't have the means to attend my first choice and choose nursing school so that I could work a decent job while returning.  Again, I settled with a community college to obtain an Associate's degree.  I  was finally financially able to obtain my Bachelor's from the preferred Christian University of my choosing.

My own beloved nephew (who will be with us one day in San Diego :) had to make some difficult decisions.  Because of his musical talents, he was offered a full scholarship to Ohio University.  He applied at several schools.  He was also accepted into his first school of choice; Berkley School of Music.  It would have cost upwards of a quarter of million dollars to complete their program. 

He was extremely disappointed that none of us would cosign for that large of amount.  I had many in depth discussions with him about the entire issue.  I assured him that if he accepted the full ride scholarship and wanted to continue at Berkley, that I would assist him. 

Where there is adequate motivation, there is usually a way.  OH, and I completed both degrees while working and suffering AIDS.   :o
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Offline wolfter

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2013, 07:34:23 PM »
I still think this talk of college education is tangential to the discussion.  Of course lots of people show tenacity and grit and get themselves college degrees but we can't expect this to be the only route out of the working poor.  Nor, in my opinion, should it be, in a rich country.

We're not in a rich country!  Would I be considered rich if I maxed out my credit cards to live a fabulous lifestyle?  You can't amass wealth by charging it. ;)
Judging someone does not define them, it defines you. 

True peace is not merely the absence of war, it is the presence of justice.

Offline buginme2

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2013, 07:47:47 PM »
I  agree  education is it's own topic really.   Not only have traditional university's gotten prohibitively expensive but now we have online universities and places like the University of Phoenix that are degree mills that leave students in debt with a worthless degree.  I  saw a sixty minutes program about people who got their masters from the university of Phoenix in education expecting to become teachers.   They graduated and no one would hire them because no one recognised their degrees.   They were left with loads of debt with a worthless degree.   The fact that we have for profit universities now is just so American.

"All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine."

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Online mecch

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2013, 07:48:26 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
1    Luxembourg   91,388   2012
—    Macau   87,765   2012
2    Qatar   83,460   2012
3    Norway   65,640   2012
4    Singapore   61,803   2012
5     Switzerland   53,367   2012
6    Brunei   53,348   2012
—    Hong Kong   51,946   2012
7    United States   49,965   2012
8    Kuwait   45,455   2011
9    Australia   44,598   2012
10    Austria   44,208   2012

Looks to me the only "real" countries ahead of the US in wealth are Switzerland and Norway.  The other ones are tiny city states, mineral/oil rich, or tax havens.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2013, 07:54:57 PM »
I still think this talk of college education is tangential to the discussion.  Of course lots of people show tenacity and grit and get themselves college degrees but we can't expect this to be the only route out of the working poor.  Nor, in my opinion, should it be, in a rich country. (Furthermore, leaving off the the many mine fields of abusive for profit "higher" ed schools, student loans nightmares for worthless degrees, and a tight job market for average folks graduating with average degrees, anyway.)

I brought up my school story because Bug said poor people can not afford to go to college.  I was showing him that was false.  In fact, most of the people I know who went to college did not have parents who shelled out $100K.  Back in the early 80's UVM was ~$15k for an out of stater like me.  I think it was ~&18K when I graduated.

Jeff - tell me what a "Living wage" equates to and I will answer your question.  A single dollar amount won't do the trick though, as cost of living differs by location.  It also differs by family size - should someone with kids make more than a single person?  This is the problem with this nebulous term - it is too subjective.  I get the concept, but I do not know how to address it on a national scale.  Raise the Federal min. Wage?  Absolutely - long overdue - but it won't erase poverty everywhere.

Mike
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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2013, 07:58:47 PM »
Raising the minimum wage to $15 would be a terrible idea.  I do think the current minimum wage is too low but to almost double it?  No.  The economy would realign itself to create a disparity between unskilled labor, skilled labor, and college educated labor.  All you would end up doing is changing the margins for a limited time.  Then the economic forces at play would begin to reorient the playing field.  $15 = entry level unskilled worker in an unskilled job, so your skilled workers would go to 25-30ish an hour and college educated workers would be the next step up, etc etc etc.  You would end up just inflating the value of a dollar.

Online mecch

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »
My take is that the US is a land of incredibly hard-working and very productive people. Exceptionally so in comparison to countries around the world. But a huge lump of the wealth is going to too few people.  Lots of people are doing their bit and being underpaid for their labor and going without "leading nation level" health care, education, and housing.

We've begun fixing upgrading the health care access. Now how about being a full time worker and having the cash to buy a turkey for the national holiday. 
 
The paradigm shift will happen, but I think we need another democratic presidency for 8 years to really budge the mind set Im seeing on display in this thread.


“I am not an expert in health care, or Obamacare, or the Affordable Care Act, or however you choose to describe it, but I do know this: I have benefited from that kind of universal health care in my 55 years of public life,” Powell said, according to the Puget Sound Business Journal, last week at an annual “survivors celebration breakfast” in Seattle for those who, like Powell, have battled prostate cancer.  “And I don’t see why we can’t do what Europe is doing, what Canada is doing, what Korea is doing, what all these other places are doing.”

“We are a wealthy enough country with the capacity to make sure that every one of our fellow citizens has access to quality health care,” Powell.  “(Let’s show) the rest of the world what our democratic system is all about and how we take care of all of our citizens.”

 “Whether it’s Obamacare, or son of Obamacare, I don’t care. As long as we get it done.”

Noted socialist/communist/Marxist Colin Powell

http://gawker.com/colin-powell-is-a-communist-1479817944

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2013, 08:05:54 PM »
Raising the minimum wage to $15 would be a terrible idea.  I do think the current minimum wage is too low but to almost double it?  No.  The economy would realign itself to create a disparity between unskilled labor, skilled labor, and college educated labor.  All you would end up doing is changing the margins for a limited time.  Then the economic forces at play would begin to reorient the playing field.  $15 = entry level unskilled worker in an unskilled job, so your skilled workers would go to 25-30ish an hour and college educated workers would be the next step up, etc etc etc.  You would end up just inflating the value of a dollar.

The big challenge to your math, and as evidenced in the labour market as well, is that there is a big chunk of workers who DO NOT move up significantly from minimum wage.  Because like it or not, the supply of well-paying jobs for so called unskilled labour, who learn skills on the job, isn't that great. And the US produces huge amounts of unskilled, unsavvy people who still need jobs...    So as I pointed out above, someone can go work in the service industry and there isn't much upward mobility for salary.  Some, but not much. 

Whats the alternative? A vast welfare state, and arresting enough of these unskilled workers and keeping them in prison. Or somehow permanently out of the labor market. Thus somehow either in underground economies, or somehow on the dole.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline wolfter

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
1    Luxembourg   91,388   2012
—    Macau   87,765   2012
2    Qatar   83,460   2012
3    Norway   65,640   2012
4    Singapore   61,803   2012
5     Switzerland   53,367   2012
6    Brunei   53,348   2012
—    Hong Kong   51,946   2012
7    United States   49,965   2012
8    Kuwait   45,455   2011
9    Australia   44,598   2012
10    Austria   44,208   2012

Looks to me the only "real" countries ahead of the US in wealth are Switzerland and Norway.  The other ones are tiny city states, mineral/oil rich, or tax havens.

In other words;

 Government debt as a percent of GDP is used by investors to measure a country ability to make future payments on its debt, thus affecting the country borrowing costs and government bond yields. This list is followed by the country specific analysis on the prevailing situation. Below is the list of 30 countries having highest debt to GDP.

1 Japan
229.8(%)
 
2 Greece
163.3
 
3 Jamaica
139
 
4 Lebanon
136.2
 
5 Eritrea
133.8
 
6 Italy
120.1
 
7 Barbados
117.3
 
8 Portugal
106.8
 
9 Ireland
105
 
10 United States
102.9
 
11 Singapore
100.8
 
12 Iceland
99.2
 
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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2013, 08:13:13 PM »
The big challenge to your math, and as evidenced in the labour market as well, is that there is a big chunk of workers who DO NOT move up significantly from minimum wage.  Because like it or not, the supply of well-paying jobs for so called unskilled labour, who learn skills on the job, isn't that great. And the US produces huge amounts of unskilled, unsavvy people who still need jobs...    So as I pointed out above, someone can go work in the service industry and there isn't much upward mobility for salary.  Some, but not much. 

Whats the alternative? A vast welfare state, and arresting enough of these unskilled workers and keeping them in prison. Or somehow permanently out of the labor market. Thus somehow either in underground economies, or somehow on the dole.

So your answer to their being no stepping stone is to pull anyone who has gotten above minimum wage back down to it?

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2013, 08:18:00 PM »
Why is it a LOSE for people making ok money if the poor make morally correct money?

Why does some person making 20 bucks "automatically" deserve 40, just because the government mandates the living wage, at, say 15... or 12. Or whatever.

The minimum wage is legislated.  Beyond the minimum wage, the market figures it out.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2013, 08:19:15 PM »
Tangential - 1.almost irrelevant: with only slight relevance to the current subject

Okay - now that I've got that out of the way....

I guess it is tangential when discussing whether or not the minimum wage should be raised... I think most have been in agreement that it should be raised (there might be some disagreement on how much).

I think education is germane to the discussion as it pertains to poverty and what has been shown to be effective in reducing poverty.

Oops...
germane - 1.relevant: suitably related to something, especially something being discussed

Education not only paves the way out of poverty but is also the best approach for attacking the issue long-term on a societal level. You see, poverty is much more than just an economic condition where your finances are below a certain point. There is an underlying thought process to the problem in many cases.
 
Until a person replaces how they think with new information, it is very difficult for their circumstances to change. That is why with all the money that’s been thrown at this problem, it still persists. We’ve been attacking the symptoms of poverty and not the root causes in that regard.
 
The emotional and psychological aspects of poverty can be very difficult to break, especially when it’s been a cycle for several generations. Even when a child in poverty has access to educational resources, it is still an internal battle on his or her part to pursue learning and break the cycle. This is not something that can be forced, only encouraged. They have to believe things can change for the better if they’re willing to put in the effort.
 
Education can also take several forms. Formal schooling and college are a major part of it, but there is also self-taught learning from books and guidance from mentors.
  http://www.educationspace360.com/index.php/education-the-solution-to-poverty-19827/

President Obama has stated that education matters today more than ever if America is to win the future.      http://www.educationnews.org/ed_reports/155609.html

As for me:

Both of my parents were high school dropouts... both struggled to raise 4 children... I was the first in my immediate family to graduate college. I am the first in my immediate family to go to graduate school.

Has it been easy? No...
But, I knew that the alternative - at least for me - was struggling to make ends meet - much like my parents. In my current position, I realize that the only way to advance and open more doors is to further my education.

I knew that a college education (or, for others, vocational training/education) - at least gave me more of a chance - opportunity - to get a position where I would not struggle as much. I wanted to open doors.

Same in terms of location...where I come from (an industrial town) - the jobs are gone... Wal Mart and other minimum wage service companies are the norm and largest employers... I knew I had to step out on faith.. I packed my car (an old Pontiac I had in 1998) and moved to Florida... Failure was not an option. I struggled - but I made it (after losing 3 of 4 hubcaps on the drive down)... I ate Ramon noodles for months (literally) - but, eventually I made it professionally in my career. Thankfully, I had the encouragement of my family and friends - who believed that I could and would achieve.

In the past 10 years, I have encouraged several friends of mine to go to college. These are friends who came from backgrounds where education was not pushed... Friends that had beliefs that they could not make it in college. Some who had been to prison multiple times, been homeless, penniless, had mental health issues, etc.

Two of these friends have successfully completed their bachelors degrees. One is currently 1/2 way through getting his associates degree. Another is pursuing his masters degree. All have jobs that they never imagined they would have; making an income that was much higher than they ever thought they would make.

But, I think that it is not the income that lifted them out of poverty as much as it was (is) the fact that they accomplished something that they did not think was a possibility.

They take the credit - not me...
Although, I am grateful for believing in the capability of people - I am grateful that I show my compassion by believing that people can achieve things that they may not have ever thought they could achieve.

As for the minimum wage debate....Raise it - Although, I maintain that raising it will do nothing to solve poverty - other than raise the standard income of what is considered poverty. Keep in mind, that while some companies have raised wages above minimum, if a unilateral raise is done - it will accomplish what I have just said - merely raise the standard income of what constitutes economic poverty without addressing the other factors that contribute to it.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Online mecch

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2013, 08:24:54 PM »
Mind you, many many service corporations will play very dirty if there were a rise to 15 as  minimum.  They will cut staff and overwork the poor souls.  I will hear the cries of anti-business communist pinko government control way over here, at the top of Matterhorn.
But you have to break eggs to make a omelette.  As Colin Powell's sentiments express, above.  Just get it done.
The US can NOT have so many people living in poverty if there is a better solution... 
So many children hungry.  HOMELESS! 
As I said, its a rich country.
So, welfare state?  Or commit to the integrity of work, the value of work, and pay a minimum wage that allows someone to live without government assistance?  Not all that complicated...  Either the tax payers subsided the Wal-marts bottom line, via the food stamps, etc, or Wal-mart and Fast-food genius reconfigure their business model to pay real wages, while still making enough money to keep CEOS and investors interested. 

Hey, if the McDo CEO won't make his 20 or 40 million anymore, well, its a free market. He went to college. He (she) can compete for the CEO jobs that pay 100 million.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2013, 08:26:14 PM »
Why is it a LOSE for people making ok money if the poor make morally correct money?

Why does some person making 20 bucks "automatically" deserve 40, just because the government mandates the living wage, at, say 15... or 12. Or whatever.

The minimum wage is legislated.  Beyond the minimum wage, the market figures it out.

I'm not sure how to break this down more readily for you.

Let's say I make 40,000 a year and someone making minimum wage is making 20,000 a year.  When you increase EVERYONE who is making less than 40k a year then suddenly the markets are going to begin to pivot.  The cost of ALL things will rise and so will non entry level wages.  So I as a skilled professional am now making the same amount of money as an unskilled professional who doesn't have the training or ability to do my job.  I could find a job with less responsibility and make the same money, or my employer realizing this will raise my wages in order to keep me employed and to offset this will raise the cost of our products and services to keep our profit margins the same.

Were you to instead raise minimum wage by a smaller amount then most likely the shift would be smaller and ripple less.

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2013, 08:29:27 PM »
Last I checked, skilled "professionals" make more than 40K.

Someone doing a 40K job is not going to want to go flip burgers, anyway, for 25K, lets say.  Also, the one at 40K is expecting to keep building over the "career".

As a leftist, I believe too much of the profit is going to shareholders and executive compensation.  McDo raises minimum wage does not mean the price of the MEAL must double.  It means the revenue generated in the company is redistributed. Or it fails. Because it can't sell 20 dollar meals.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2013, 08:37:36 PM »
Switzerland has more or less a living wage in practice. And its not mandated. What this means is that the service workers make a decent salary. But every skill grade going up does not have to increase exponentially.  This means the middle class has to be comfortable with the idea that the cashier at the supermarket has an apartment, health insurance, food on the table, a stable life, a decent life, in a very rich country. Whats so scandalous about that?
A lot of you seem really uncomfortable that someone doing 40 hours a work with a smile on their face, dependable, versatile, a "solid" employee, makes a decent living...
But then some people have the gall to rather keep the minimum wage below the "living wage", AND yet begrudge the government assistance therefore required, and which makes, at least childhood, decent, in a rich country.  WTF?
Not everyone is going to college my friends... But all labour is honourable and deserve fair share of the country's wealth. 
 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2013, 08:41:22 PM »
Last I checked, skilled "professionals" make more than 40K.

Someone doing a 40K job is not going to want to go flip burgers, anyway, for 25K, lets say.  Also, the one at 40K is expecting to keep building over the "career".

As a leftist, I believe too much of the profit is going to shareholders and executive compensation.  McDo raises minimum wage does not mean the price of the MEAL must double.  It means the revenue generated in the company is redistributed. Or it fails. Because it can't sell 20 dollar meals.

Seriously Mecch, did you read that post?  You made so many false assumptions and illogical leaps I'm not sure exactly how to respond.  CEOs are overpaid yes, but even stripping them of all of their excess cash and redistributing it over every McDonalds worker you would get something like $4-5 dollars extra per year for the individuals who work there.  If McDonald's reworked their pay rates and their menu they could potentially pay people 15/hr and be profitable but they wouldn't be fast food anymore as their prices would have to be much much higher to compensate.

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2013, 08:41:29 PM »
CEO pay has very little to do with employee pay.  Even if every single CEO transferred every dime he made, it wouldn't make a noticeable difference in their wages. 

Since Walmart is being used, I'll point this out.

Their CEO makes $35 million per year and oversees 2.1 million employees.  That's under $17 per year per employee.  That equates to $1.42 per month, per employee.  Less than a penny an hour.

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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2013, 08:43:25 PM »
CEO pay has very little to do with employee pay.  Even if every single CEO transferred every dime he made, it wouldn't make a noticeable difference in their wages. 

Since Walmart is being used, I'll point this out.

Their CEO makes $35 million per year and oversees 2.1 million employees.  That's under $17 per year per employee.  That equates to $1.42 per month, per employee.  Less than a penny an hour.

We just wrote basically the same thing. lol

Offline Jeff G

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2013, 08:45:02 PM »
This is an interesting piece from the current issue of the Smithsonian magazine about how to get poor kids to apply to great colleges . Among the eyeopening things they discovered when they did a study as to why some lower income people didn't apply they found that simply because of the $75 dollar application fee it was out of reach for many of the students to consider , one reason among many . 

Caroline Hoxby identified economic barriers and eliminated them and has seen a great success at helping people out of poverty through eduction . Its a shining example of what can be done when you face the economic barriers as they exist and stop making excuses for never trying to improve peoples lives .   

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ideas-innovations/How-Do-You-Get-Poor-Kids-to-Apply-to-Great-Colleges-231152311.html#Hoxby-ingenuity-portrait-2-473.jpg

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2013, 09:00:03 PM »
I will agree that my bringing executive pay into it is weak sauce. Just a pet peeve.

Anyway, I'm for the living wage, but will be happy for any increase to the minimum wage.
I thought this way about health care, too. Just mandate the idea of universal coverage and figure it out.
Probably have to do the same with wages. Since the high paying jobs for the "worker classes" are gone, from the advanced post-industrial countries. And not everyone can be in the knowledge economy.
Otherwise, more welfare please. 
And while we're at it, how about we nationalise all the universities that don't have endowments big enough to function independently? (And get rid of those god awful for-profit ones!)  Tax all the citizens appropriately, so poor but clever people have real access, again.  Bring that degree cost down again.  As student loan debt is the next mortgage crisis.  Oh. right. More socialist pipe dreams. Can't do that. (Yet plenty of countries manage to. Along with socialised health care...)
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Joe K

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2013, 09:03:37 PM »
The main problem I see with looking at "only" the minimum wage, is that wages do not exist in a vacuum.  If our government could get it's act together there could be some major changes made, across the board that would help to raise the income of millions of Americans.  You could start with these:

Infrastructure spending, say to the tune of 2-3 trillion over ten years.  Instantly employs millions of Americans to repair our crumbling infrastructure.

Limit the amount of income that can be claimed for capital gains taxes, say ten million per year.  Anything after that is subjected to earned income tax rates.

End all subsidies for any corporation that is posting record profits.  If you are making record profits, you don't need to be feeding at the public trough.

End all tax deductions that are unnecessary.  If you can afford a private jet, good for you, but you need to pay the full freight.  Same with second homes, yachts, sky boxes, etc.

End non-profit status for entities, like the NFL, who are a money making enterprise.

End the use of public funds to build any sports arena.  If you can pay your players a couple of hundred million per year, you do not need any tax dollars to build your venues.

Start aggressive prosecution of any financial institution that contributed to our recent recession and demand settlements that actually help average Americans.

Reform corporate tax to insure that any company, based in America, is not off-shoring it's "profit" to avoid American taxes.  If you control the business from America, say Apple and GE, you pay tax on all your profits.

End the use of off-shore tax havens for all corporations and individuals.

Recreate something like the "G.I. Bill", for average Americans to get an education and hold schools accountable for producing graduates that are educated to get a job.

Quit throwing away 30% of every dollar, spent on health care, to feed the profits of insurance companies.

Do any of these and things will get better in America.

The question should not be: "Should we raise the minimum wage?"  The question should be, "How can we get America working again and how much do each of us need to contribute, to make that happen?"

Joe
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2013, 09:08:45 PM »
govment cheese is wut we need .

Offline wolfter

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2013, 09:27:50 PM »
govment cheese is wut we need .

It was my hard working parents who subsidized the cheese and we didn't even receive any.  :(

The government cheese van always handed it out at the Catholic Church and it was the only time some of those people had seen the light of day in ages.   :o  If I remember correctly my mom once bought a box off of someone for $5.00 and it was delicious but she felt guilty and would never do it again.  Do they still have that program?
Judging someone does not define them, it defines you. 

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2013, 09:31:12 PM »
Thanks Joe, at last another leftist pipes in.

Listen all you horatio alger bootstrapers, I think it helps you to hear from the true left, sometimes?  I listen to your world view. I am compelled by horatio alger stories as I lived one myself. But we can't expect this myth to solve such widespread downward mobility and other huge groups trapped forever in poverty. Significant upward mobility is the exception to the rule.

I see a vast redistribution of the wealth of the country since the 80s.

Follow a leftist program along any of the lines as Joe above details, and we get at a correction.  Because, as noted Marxist Colin Powell says, its a wealthy county and needs to do right by its citizens.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 09:33:53 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Jeff G

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2013, 09:32:53 PM »
Im not sure if the cheese program is still going or not . It may be WIC or SNAP now .


It was my hard working parents who subsidized the cheese and we didn't even receive any.  :(

The government cheese van always handed it out at the Catholic Church and it was the only time some of those people had seen the light of day in ages.   :o  If I remember correctly my mom once bought a box off of someone for $5.00 and it was delicious but she felt guilty and would never do it again.  Do they still have that program?

Offline buginme2

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2013, 09:54:06 PM »
I just watched on the news that congress will not be renewing the Unemployment insurance Program and will end all benefits for those unemployed for longer than 24 weeks.

They showed an interview with Rand Paul, the senator from Kentucky who (I'm summarizing) said that congress was doing the unemployed a favor by cutting off their unemployment benefits because they really don't want to be receiving assistance for too long.  Because people should after all "just get a job" or "just go to college"

That asshole got me so worked up.  I'm going to smoke some pot now and play xbox. I need a break.

Yes I just hijacked my own thread, I'm sorry
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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2013, 09:56:54 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/15/income-inequality-wall-street_n_3762422.html
The U.S. Has The Worst Income Inequality In The Developed World, Thanks To Wall Street: Study

how did America get so darn great at ratcheting open the chasm between the haves and have-nots? Thank the dynamic duo of Wall Street and Washington, which have been working so well together for the past few decades to make laws that favor banks. Turns out this Axis Of Making It Rain has also been making laws that favor the exorbitantly wealthy. Win-win. Unless you are poor, in which case: Sorry, be born to richer parents next time, maybe?

One thing you'll notice in this chart is that, typically, the bigger the tax cuts given to the 1 percent (the horizontal scale on the chart), the bigger the income inequality. This is consistent with other studies that have shown the tax code has a big effect on income distribution. That's one way Washington has boosted inequality: By slashing taxes on the rich, for freedom and growth and trickling down on the poor. Unfortunately, the paper points out, contrary to what you will hear from conservatives, lower tax rates on the wealthy offer no obvious benefits to growth, or to the poor.

One other thing you'll notice from the chart is that the United Kingdom has slashed taxes on the top 1 percent almost as aggressively the U.S. has, and yet the share of income going to the top 1 percent is not nearly as big. So there's something else going on here besides just tax breaks.

That something is Wall Street, more or less, as Matthew O'Brien of The Atlantic points out. The same politicians that have busily been slashing taxes on the wealthy have also been loosening fetters on banking, allowing the financial sector to swell to bloated size and mop up ever-more income while contributing ever-less back to the economy. Again, this is consistent with other studies that have attributed much of the rise in inequality to the pay being sucked up by bankers and overpaid CEOs.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2013, 09:59:37 PM »
I just watched on the news that congress will not be renewing the Unemployment insurance Program and will end all benefits for those unemployed for longer than 24 weeks.

They showed an interview with Rand Paul, the senator from Kentucky who (I'm summarizing) said that congress was doing the unemployed a favor by cutting off their unemployment benefits because they really don't want to be receiving assistance for too long.  Because people should after all "just get a job" or "just go to college"

That asshole got me so worked up.  I'm going to smoke some pot now and play xbox. I need a break.

Yes I just hijacked my own thread, I'm sorry

Why is that a hijack.  It has been the counter argument to raising he minimum wage, in this thread, and in politics for years now.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #96 on: December 09, 2013, 10:45:37 PM »
Listen all you horatio alger bootstrapers, I think it helps you to hear from the true left, sometimes?  I listen to your world view. I am compelled by horatio alger stories as I lived one myself. But we can't expect this myth to solve such widespread downward mobility and other huge groups trapped forever in poverty. Significant upward mobility is the exception to the rule.

Ah yes -- time to start the belittling of the opposition to your leftist plan.  Take an example and call it a myth, yet I have not heard anyone answer how this mythical "living wage" makes poverty go away.  Such a simple concept, yet humankind has lived with poverty for millennia. 
No one answers what a living wage is, despite numerous asks by me -- how does a single wage work for households of one vs. households of 4, 5, 6, 7, etc......

Most have agreed that the minimum wage should rise -- the debate is by how much, what it actually solves and what are the unintended consequences.  The responses all amount to "propaganda", "myths", "anecdotes" "tangents", etc.......

If these problems were so simple to solve, they would have been solved.  There is poverty in the socialist countries, in case you've missed out (now you'll roll out that the big, bad US is much worse, but will not address these countries inability to end poverty).

So -- for a final time -- I THINK WE SHOULD RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE.  Not sure about doubling it in one fell swoop -- but it will not allow all honorable laborers to rise out of poverty and likely will cause new woes for some of the poor or newly poor. 

Joe did have the best ideas in this entire thread -- I'd love to see these happen.  I'm not sure he's quite as "leftist" as Mecch makes him out (though, I'll let Joe make that call) -- what he has done was take pragmatic, logic steps to help lift people up vs. emotional, symbolic ones.

Mike
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Offline BT65

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2013, 04:34:18 AM »
Just for clarification --- a drug offense only prevents a person from getting student aid if the offense occurs while the person was receiving student aid. Also, even if it occurs while receiving student aid, the person can have his/her eligiblity restored:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/eligibility/criminal-convictions

I typed a reply to this last night and not sure what happened to it.

I read through the info, Phil, and the requirement is either completing a drug rehab program (who is going to pay for that), or getting unannounced pee tests through a rehab center (again, who is going to pay).  You may say, oh, no one pays when someone does a pee test, but that is not true.  I have clients who are still on probation because they owe for pee tests. 

Also, colleges do not advertise this fact, that someone with a drug charge can get federal aid.  It's a very hush-hush secret, so how anyone without your technological abilities would know this is a question.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline ds4146

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2013, 06:13:23 AM »
People need to get involved if they want to see change, just like any other issue.
Betty has one of the best points. How many of us get involved whether through mentoring or just providing moral support and encouragement as Phil mentions above?
For those who keep discussing corporate greed such as with McDonalds and Wal-Mart, how many of you still shop or pig out there? Get involved, stop supporting them.
And Joe, you have my vote for president based on your post, however based on our current leaders and representatives, none of this would get further than a post or state of the union speech.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 06:18:12 AM by ds4146 »

Offline Theyer

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Re: It's time to raise the minimum wage
« Reply #99 on: December 10, 2013, 02:38:03 PM »
Its a pity that so many swallow the wonderful PR job off all that is if we do not pay a certain group off individuals obscene amounts off money we will all suffer because profits will be hit , ditto if the taxes are too high they will leave the country.

The debate prior to establishing a low min wage in the UK from those who opposed it stopped a breath short off Armageddon.

Profits/responsibilities are out off Kilter , the gap between rich and poor is growing at a alarming rate. The debate needs a what is a maximun wage. Some enlighten company,s have a pay ratio scale , so if the highest payed award themselves a pay rise all in the company get one to keep the ratio between lowest and highest  correct . I see no reason why a country could not adopt such a ruling.

The levels off entitlement to ones societies riches needs debating.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

 


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