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Author Topic: Need Some Advice  (Read 6921 times)

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Offline thanks for help

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Need Some Advice
« on: June 06, 2006, 06:36:35 PM »
Hi...this is a really good community, i have read a lot of the posts here and it is very helpful.  I am hetero, married.  I had two encoutners over the last month (year, actually).  The first - i was having a massage and the girl gave me a handjob - and started to give me a blowjob.  The whole thing was over very quickly.  The second was a month later with a non-professional, we had intercourse, I used a condom and there was no break.  Should I get testing for these two incidents and when?

I am freaking out and probably inventing all kinds of things in my head.

Also, the second was with a girl that I like.  I am married and I do not wish to bring any thing into my home, but at the same time i would like to explore - safely.  How do i do this and take risk to zero?


Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006, 06:40:29 PM »
I urge you to read the transmission lessons on this forum.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline thanks for help

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006, 06:43:33 PM »
so what does that mean, really?  No need to test?  Zero risk?  the internet is a great tool, but there is a lot of information out there.  I know you probably get tired of answering the same questions, but given these two scenarios, is the risk 1 in 100,000 or physicaly impossible?

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 06:48:38 PM »
If you read the LESSONS section, your questions will be answered. I worry that if I respond to your specific concern without your getting a full STD/HIV education, then you will continue to concern yourself over no-risk moments. You know, give a man to fish, he eats for a day and all that.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline thanks for help

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 07:47:34 PM »
i read them and it seems like empirically there is no risk although there is theoretical risk, albeit approaching zero.  It also suggests when in doubt, get tested.  The mind is a powerful thing when it has things suggested to it, I have been absolutely freaking out and imagining lots of different things.  I will get the test at the 2 week point and again at the 3 month point.

I don't think these can be qualified as "no risk" though, although you probably know a great deal more than I do.  I think at best they can be quantified as very low risk.  I've looked at some of the studies cited on this and while they are compelling, I don't think they can absolutely rule out the highly slim chance it could be transmitted in those two very common hetero scenarios.  For example - the studies on transmission via intercourse where a condom is used.  Is it an absolute certainty that these result from condom malfunction?  Because I have not seen any doctor say anywhere that if you have intercourse and the condom is fully intact there is zero risk.

Second, on the oral scenario - i have read some places that transmission requires non-saliva fluids by the giver and an open cut/sore by the receiver of the blowjob.  I had not cuts or sores nor did i see any non-saliva fluids in her mouth or on me afterwards.  So in that scenario is there actual science that says transmission is impossible?

Thanks for your help

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 08:24:37 PM »
Ah, I think I am beginning to understand a little more clearly.

While I personally take great issue with the concept of "theoretical risk," it is important to understand that medical science, even quantifiable epidemiology, is not like geology or other sciences. You will not find a hundred percent certainty or assurance for anything. Is everone going to die? Can't answer that question until everyone dies.

Does HIV make everyone sick? Nope. There are long term non progressors currently being studied.

Does HIV cause the same issues with everyone? Nope. Between mutations and genetic variants  in both host and pathogen, HIV behaves differently in everybody.

However, the vast majority of people who are infected with HIV will grow ill and die without medical intervention. But even here, the time frame for this process can be anywhere from a year to twenty.

So much for one hundred percent accuracy, right?

Same thing goes for prevention. But studies published since 2000 have seriously hardened the available data. Patient report is not reliable. I cannot stress enough that the plural of anecdote is not data. Yet the medical community used it, referenced it as though it were mathematical data for decades. The advent of protease inhibitors and other medical breakthroughs have allowed people with HIV the possibility (but again, not the certainty) of living far longer, far healthier. We have finally been able to follow serodiscordant couples for long periods of time, through a wide variety of circumstances.

And what we have discovered matches rather perfectly with the simian/primate studies and the lab tests regarding the behaviour of and transmission vectors for HIV. In a science which is impossible to mathematically quantify, it comes far closer than any previous study protocol.

Saliva is not only uninfectious, but it contains elements which inhibit HIV, disrupt red blood cells, and dissolve the fragile protein shell which HIV requires in order to latch onto a CD4 cell.

Insertive oral has never been documented to cause HIV infection, and the three serodiscordant studies have shown that unprotected oral, both fellatio and cunnilingus, receiving and giving, caused ZERO new infections. We are talking literally thousands of hours of oral sex over thirteen cumulative years.

You will not get HIV from getting oral sex.

As for doctors implying that one can get HIV through an intact condom, I can only respond to quantifiable data. If you wish to show me the data that purports this, I would discuss it. However, the danger for HIV infection is exponentially greater for heterosexual females than for (circumsized, Western-oriented hygiene) heterosexual males insofar as vaginal sex is concerned. I am always amazed at the number of heterosexual males on this forum, yet how canishingly few western men who claim heterosexual transmission are in the LIVING WITH forum.

You simply do not get HIV through an intact condom if you are a male. The vulnerable portion of the anatomy is the urethra, which is the LEAST likely area to be exposed to potentially infectious fluids.

You want science that proves transmission is impossible? You are not going to find it. You won't even find science that empiricallly states that a mutating HIV variant will never become airborne. It's extraordinarily unlikely, but not impossible. We can state with some certainty that it's not going to happen, but understanding science involves understanding the difference between mathematical certainty (which is itself a misnomer, since quantum physics toys with the axioms of standard mathematics) and medical certainty.

You will not get HIV from protected sex. It simply does not happen. If the notion of theoretical risk is enough to make you concerned, then I highly suggest you incorporate those fears into your sexual choices. Of course, that potentially indicates a celibate life, but it's your life, and your choice.


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 08:30:02 PM »
The quick bottom line is that no, you do not need to test because of those recent incidents. There's never been a documented case of transmission of HIV via getting a blowjob. You aren't going to make history by becoming the first.

As for intercourse, latex condoms provide very effective protection, no matter whom you are with. Use them consistently and you should not have any problem with regard to HIV.

There are other STDs out there, so if you are sexually active with other than your wife, it would be a good idea to have a full panel of STD tests done regularly.

As far as HIV is concerned I don't see any problem here nor any need for testing.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline thanks for help

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2006, 08:33:52 PM »
ok, thanks for your help.  It is really nice to see people spending the time to help complete strangers work through these kids of things...As I read through these posts I see a lot of people like me who have some kind of contact with another person and then spend weeks in deep anxiety about it.  That is where I am right now and I will certainly use the test for peace of mind.  It sounds like you are suggesting that a test is not necessary for anything but that, which will help me get through the next few weeks until I get a result - which is a great help.  Thank you!

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2006, 08:45:09 PM »
You're welcome. I'm glad you found the exchanges here to be helpful.

And again, I do expect you will test negative.

Often guys who stray get into a lot of guilt about being dogs like the rest of us. Do yourself, your wife and your relationship a big favor and don't go there. You did what you did. It can't be undo. Take a deep breath and let it go. The smartest and most loving thing you can do is to get on with your life, and if you find yourself in a like situation again, just make sure that you always follow safer sex guidelines consistently.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline thanks for help

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 02:52:24 AM »
Yes, I feel like a dog at the same time we are all just people and it is the most natural urge of all...I just want to make sure everything stays cool. 

Two follow up questions:

1) You really and truly feel there is no need to test?
2) what is truly safer  - oral or protected intercourse?  Do you even recommend protected oral or do you feel like the science/tests demonstrate there is no point?

Thanks

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 03:38:48 AM »
I recommend condoms with intercourse, and i recommend that insofar as oral is concerned, that you read available, recent data and make up your own mind. I do know that it is a rare thing indeed, in the straight OR gay communities, for people to use a condom for oral sex. But you should pursue whatever allows you peace of mind.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline thanks for help

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2006, 03:48:34 AM »
Ok thanks.  Peace of mind for me is just not where I am right now, so assuming you are right I have some mods to make.  I am worried for myself, but more for my wife/other people.  Anxiety and stress have made me feel like I am sick, I actually physically felt a lot better when i got my questions answered.

You didn't answer question #1 though...

Thanks again for your help, you are really doing something to help other people.  Bless you and the other people on here.

Offline Morgan

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 04:19:44 AM »
Thanks for help,

Read Andy's second to last post.  You'll find your answer there.

Morgan
Morgan Landers

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 07:30:46 AM »
I think any sexually active adult who is not in a monogamous relationship with an HIV negative person owes it to him/her self and his/her partner(s) to get a full STD panel, including an HIV test, at least once a year.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Online Andy Velez

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 10:30:13 AM »
PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY and if necessary aloud: YOU HAVE NO CAUSE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THOSE TWO INCIDENTS AND REALLY AND TRULY THERE IS NO NEED FOR TESTING.

I will add one further caution. There are other STDs out there and if you find yourself becoming sexually active outside of your marriage that is a reality you need to pay attention to. Anyone who is sexually active needs to have a full STD panel done regularly, by which I mean every six months is good and of course more frequently if there are symptoms.

As far as HIV is concerned, it's a simple but serious matter: always use a latex condom for intercourse and you'll be ok.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline thanks for help

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Re: Need Some Advice
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2006, 03:52:42 AM »
Andy, you don't know how many times I have said to myself the past few days.

It is super stressful just to think about it.  It's just hard to let the fear go.

It is kind of a shame that these facts are basically poorly known to someone like myself (graduate degree, use internet all of the time, live in the richest country in the world) who probably has more access to information than 99% of the people in the world.  My experience with this was doing a lot of googling and getting very scary information.

I would like to see the CDC and some of the medical establishment be able to leverage this kind of approach as the ability to ask questions at 4AM from your computer as well as clarifying things - and getting one story - would probably save a lot of people from getting this.

 


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