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Author Topic: Sex and condom hate  (Read 11334 times)

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Offline Btmbear

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Sex and condom hate
« on: September 15, 2013, 12:03:43 AM »
Hi!

I have just tested positive on my backpacking trip around the world. A few months ago it was still negative. I talked with my doctor at home (europe) and he said with a cd4 count of 500 i can continue like planned (a few more months) and shouldnt be very worried about my immediate health.


Yeah i feel lonely and sad since i heard my diagnosis a few days ago. Yes i see a mostly grey future as i wont be able to do many things i enjoy. Like travelling unlimited for years or having bb sex. Yeah i know bareback is bad, what did u think got me where i am now?

But you see, i am not a bad person per se. I do care about others to a degree and i wouldnt want to risk the life of others. but..... I just cant deal with condoms. They have always turned me off. I have tried for years to enjoy sex with them. I tried all kinds of condoms, thin, latexfree etc etc

If i get fucked with condom (i am mostly bottom) it either hurts or at bestfeels like a waste of time. It doesnt feel good, it doesnt make me horny or feel good AT ALL.

So recently (before my infection) i have tried to minimize my risk by trying to find the right guys, ask them to not cum inside etc. it worked fine for years and the negative tests just seemed to prove my strategy worked but i guess it was inevitable.

And now what do i do ..

Get used to condoms? It didnt work the first 20 years or so. At the same time i see everyone wanting to fuck me bare ... I guess they all think i am clean cause i look so young and cute? Haha

Should i let them, thinking as a bottom the risk of infecting them is less anyway? Or that its their fault if they fuck a stranger bareback? (Which it is technically, no?)

Yes i could tell them before sex but thats unrealistic. It kills the mood in most men (me included) and it will just lead to frustration and me stop telling it.

I could start going to bareback parties, at least there everyone is probably positive anyway or too stupid to be taken seriously, no?

But the choice of men i will meet there will be a very different one i assume. And i generally like passionate one on one sex with a guy i fancy, just without the condom.

So what should i do REALISTICALLY?

Probably its best to become a monk. Too bad i am spiritually challenged and more the realistic thinking kind. So not sure i will be happy that way.

Btw happy ... I had a hard time finding a boyfriend the last 20 years. I see a very grey future here too, more than ever.

Yeah grey is a nice color, i should get used to it  :'(

Alex

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2013, 02:20:33 AM »
IMO You seem to conceive a lot of things as assumed, that things are done deals, that things are only possible one way, that things are black and white, and that opposites can't exist at the same time.

Maybe its just because of the recent diagnosis.  Or maybe you don't see things in tones of grey a part of your character.

If you don't want to deal with condoms, fine.  You can still have bareback sex with other HIV+ people. 

You do realise that bareback sex brings the risk of other STDS besides HIV.  I thought when I got HIV 20 years after NOT having HIV because I was having safe sex, that the small bonus was I could have bareback sex now with other poz guys (im a gay guy) and two years into that experiment, I got HEP C from bareback sex.  So, just a warning to you.....  Don't be naive and ignorant.

If you go on HAART, when you go on HAART, you can reduce your ability to transmit the virus.  Radically.  At that point, it is conceivable that an HIV neg lover will be willing to bareback you.  Just another option to keep in mind.

What do you do now about being HIV+ and having a butt that could transmit HIV? Well there are four basic questions, my dear.

1) what is morally right in your moral register.

2) what the "general population" considers morally right, if there is such a consensus.

3) what laws apply as to criminal non-disclosure, criminal "exposure" and criminal transmission of HIV in the location where you are having sex....  Time to read up on these.

4) what you understand your partner would want.

Generally my snap opinion is that you need to be on HAART and undetectable, lickity split, otherwise you risk becoming a public health threat.  And it would seem to open more options to continue a somewhat modified sex life similiar but not exactly the same as your life to present.

The following sentences have so many issues I can't even go there, this morning, until I've had a few coffees.

1))Should i let them, thinking as a bottom the risk of infecting them is less anyway? 2) Or that its their fault if they fuck a stranger bareback? (Which it is technically, no?)

3) Yes i could tell them before sex but thats unrealistic. It kills the mood in most men (me included) and it will just lead to frustration and me stop telling it.

4) I could start going to bareback parties, at least there everyone is probably positive anyway or too stupid to be taken seriously, no?

5) But the choice of men i will meet there will be a very different one i assume. And i generally like passionate one on one sex with a guy i fancy, just without the condom.


Its gonna take awhile to unpack all that and frankly I'll let other members have a crack at it because you seem a bit self-interested, frankly, rigid, and not all that empathetic with others, and I need to work up enough generosity and patience to start discussing the dozens of issues you throw out.  The entire post is a mixture of cheaply dramatic fatalism and bravado.. Do you see it?

Anyway, more later... 

Welcome to the forums; I predict you'll get an earful but if you listen you'll get some good advice and if you stick around you might find a few characters here who you could warm up to.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2013, 08:20:37 AM »
Hi mecch,

thanks for your reply. I am sorry if i sounded egocentric. Maybe i even am. I try to be honest. In my experience what people say in public and later do in darkrooms is often very different. I try to be honest and upfront although i can see that this might sound egoistic or heartless. Again, maybe i am. But what can i do? pretend i will be a nice condom user ? I have to be realistic.

As for Haart .. I will discuss this with my doctor once I am back home. Since I am travelling atm it will be hard to impossible to get them but yeah once I am on meds i assume I will have less moral problems having bareback sex with guys. Although i read conflicting stuff about this. Some people say one can still infect his partner even if on meds.

Well i hope you had a good coffee and sorry for the strong words.



Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2013, 09:07:56 AM »
Well IMO its best for you to lay it on the line here in the forum. 

One thing you can do regarding the 4 questions I asked above is just be aware of the laws in place and prosecution rates in any European countries, just so you're not ignorant of them. Whether you decide to follow them or not, whether its your impression that the general practice in the gay scene in one of these places might contradict the laws....
https://www.unaids.org/en/media/unaids/contentassets/documents/document/2012/BackgroundCurrentLandscapeCriminalisationHIV_Final.pdf

More comments later :)

PS - just one little one - most people in this forum don't like the word "clean" used to  describe HIV- status...


“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline wolfthorn

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2013, 05:47:21 PM »
It's immoral to have unprotected sex with people and not disclose your status. If you are going to be sexually active you really should be on HAART and try to get undetectable to minimize your threat to others, and also use condoms with HIV-negative people.

I used condoms always and still got infected, probably through a gum problem. Shit happens.

A lot of positive guys want to have unprotected sex but I'm still scared of the threat of other diseases.
7/10/13: Oraquick at Home (+)
7/11/13: CD4 <20, VL 286,000
7/26/13: Start Stribild, Bactrim, Azithromycin
8/13/13: CD4 64, VL 1194
9/11/13: CD4 87, VL 511
10/14/13: CD4 164, VL 34
10/15/13: Stop Azithromycin!

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2013, 07:04:59 PM »
Morality is a fluid thing, and I hesitate before calling an act in and of itself immoral.

If a person is on ART and has an UD VL, and the activity he is engaging in is not a risk for HIV in the first place (receptive fellatio for example), is it immoral then? What about kissing?

Thing is, what seems to get misplaced in these discussions is that we are not trying to curtail anyone's sexual expression, whether it be in a mutually monogamous marriage or a gang bang.

We are hopefully trying not to spread a virus. Period.

So let's step away form morality for a moment and look at the science.

Scientifically speaking, there is a strong chance that the OP, with a fairly recent infection, has and might continue to have a high viral load. This is in the blood, semen, and rectal mucosa. As of this moment, he presents a real danger to anyone who tops him bareback.

And yes, tops can get HIV too. Doesn't happen NEARLY as often as bottoming, but the science is solid for the possibility.

What can the OP do to mitigate this?

Obviously, condoms. But he hates those. I assume he has tried latex, polyurethane, and even the "female" condom with the inner ring removed.

I understand the friction issue. Lots of lubrication - and the right lubrication -can mitigate this. But latex is NOT friendly to mucus membranes. That's one of the main reason porn actors in California are campaigning (successfully I notice) against mandatory condoms in porn. After an hour or so of different positions, even the best lube and thinnest latex can cause serious irritation - which, ironically, ups the chance for an STD.

Polyurethane condoms work a lot better, and can be used with oil-based lube as well. Some people note a higher instance of breakage, and some people think it sounds like a plastic grocery bag.

I have no information on the female condom except that the few gay men I know who have used it claim to enjoy it. Your mileage may vary.

But then again, how much of that matters? The OP doesn't like condoms, and won't use them.

OK. Let's work with that.

Here are the options as I see them:

a) serosort. Find pozzies who want to bareback. It's not difficult. And though yes there are maybe a dozen cases of reinfection in recorded history, the spectre of that is so overblown as to be ridiculous. And to the best of my knowledge few if any of these "combined" viruses has resulted in drug resistance or faster disease progression. It is, as far as I am concerned, a non issue.

Yes, you can still get all the other STDs. And with an HIV infection some of them can be pretty brutal. Syphilis, which normally takes YEARS or DECADES to infiltrate the brain as neurosyphilis, can get there in a matter of months if untreated. Diligent testing for other STDs is really a must if you are barebacking with other people outside a mutually monogamous relationship.

B) Get on ART and get undetectable. Take your meds as prescribed. If you do that, then in the absence of other STDs, your viral load should not be an issue in your blood or rectal mucosa or semen.

However, seeing as you state your preference for multiple partners, you need to consider that the Swiss Study and other studies have all noted that the presence of another STD in the genital area (herpes, HPV, Chlamydia, Gonorrhea) can cause a spike in both seminal AND rectal viral loads. That's part of the body's inflammation process. Now none of the studies have shed any light on how HIGH this spike goes, whether it was/is enough to facilitate transmission, or even if the detected viral particles were even viable in the first place.

That is a lot of guessing left to be done there, until science can make those issues clearer.



While it seems fun to pile on the OP for his reluctance to change his lifestyle in order to accommodate his infection, he is only half of the equation here.

It's 2013. And to agree to have unprotected penetrative sex with a partner of unknown status (stating your status doesn't count) is to agree to the possibility of acquiring an STD, including HIV. In a consensual situation, each partner bears the responsibility for his own health.

Yes, people lie. People might not even know their status. People might view their last negative test result as a license to screw with impunity. People are people. But unless this is a rape situation, two consenting adults bear mutual responsibility. Criminalizing HIV is pointless, useless in reducing infections, and only creates stigma and an arbitrary divide where one party might never avail himself of the information he needs to protect himself because his blind trust in a GRINDR profile makes his safer sex decisions for him.

I have little patience for that.


Having been said, however, you don't have to agree with the laws against non-disclosure but you ought to be aware of them. And they vary from place to place. In many places, transmission doesn't even have to be achieved for prosecution to take place. The OP could stand to lose his money, his freedom, even his life.

That seems to be a bit of a risk for an aversion to condoms that seems at LEAST partially psychological. You cannot FEEL someone's ejaculate entering you. There is no special magic in the stuff. Recognizing that for the psychological issue that it is, is one (not the only) bit of introspection and lifestyle/attitude adjustment necessary to acclimate to an HIV infection.  Until the cure, sex gets complicated.

Of course, another option is to get on ART, become undetectable, then find a monogamous partner of either status. In the absence of other STDs, unprotected sex with a positive partner with an Undetectable Viral load are calculated as being roughly the same risk as penetrative sex with a condom, regardless of viral load.

I didn't belabor that, because it appears that the OP doesn't want that at the moment.

Thing is, at the end of the day your conscience is your own.  People at a bareback party might be stupid, but does stupid warrant disregard for his sexual future? Maybe to you it does.

Thing is, you don't want to have HIV. I get that.

Disclosing kills the mood, you say. Will taking pills do the same? I often find psychological issues don't stay in compartments.

You won the HIV lottery here. You now have the choice to let it control you, or control it. You can do that by being proactive about treatment, of course.

You can also do it by reexamining where you've been for the last 20 years, and where you want to be in the future. Life-altering events tend to, well, alter your life. And you don't always get to choose how or when or why.

By the way, I have been positive for over twenty years. And though I have spent fifteen of those in relationships, I have certainly been no saint. It's entirely doable, AND you can sleep at night - AND you can avoid expensive, often public prosecution.

You will find on your travels that the world, despite being large, is also quite small. Word gets around. And you might find that your secret will not stay safe. And you know what they say about people being "only as sick as their secrets," right?

You can still travel with HIV. Obviously before you get on treatment, and even afterwards you can get many month's worth of meds at once. I honestly don't see too much of a limitation there. A year abroad without access to treatment might be problematic, but many members here have workarounds (some ethical, some in shades of grey).

You are recently diagnosed and a little raw right now.

Give yourself time to wrap your head around this. READ this site. The learning curve is steep, but absolutely doable.

Whatever you eventually decide, I certainly hope you find happiness. It seems to have escaped you for now.




"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Btmbear

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  • Posts: 39
Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2013, 10:45:33 PM »
Jkinatl: your message made me cry. Thanks so much for your detailed and understanding response. More later.

Mecch: i read parts of the document. Honestly it made me very sad. In my experience disclosing your status to someone before sex will at best lead to a nice talk but no sex anymore. But maybe thats for the best anyway the more i think about it.

The document btw said nothing about asian countries except singapore. Does that mean there are no laws there? Seeing how most people fuck bare here without asking it seems like it (although that also happened to me in sg).

Btw sorry about the use of the word clean/unclean. Thats what most people out there say (and i always thought it to be very funny to ask that. I didnt even get it at first, i thought they asked if i had cleaned my ass lol)

Jkinatl:
I am very sad these days especially mornings when i wake up early and then lie in bed thinking and not falling asleep again (which happens often whenever i have problems). I try to remain positive (thinking) and rational but sometimes i feel like wanting to give up and just end it. Its not like my life made a lot of sense before the infection and now it feels even worse with this added burden. I know a sickness can be a chance to achieve a more meaningful life, countless creative people out there proved that in our history but i dont feel like i could contribute anything to this world.

I actually started the travelling because i was bored and didnt have any sense in life. I thought i would find SOMETHING .. I didnt so far, except a virus. Not exactly what i hoped for.

I wasnt always such an egoistic sexcentric ass. In fact i have only recently discovered the joy in uninhibited sex. When i was young i was looking for love, not sex. I never really found it. Most people told me i am fat, hairy, ugly, old or just not his type. Also i was scared of hiv so much in my youth that i almost never had anal sex. Especially since i didnt like the condoms even back then. So i mostly refrained from anal sex.

But then over time i gradually lost my fear of hiv, the pain of getting fucked and started enjoying bare sex. And then i found out how much people want me, like me and even adore me in other countries, especially asian ones. And no, its not about the money (of which i dont have that much). Some people here really like the way i look and they are eager to have sex with me. Combined with their ignorance of doing safe sex mostly it was heaven.

Maybe that explains a bit. At the moment i feel like all this attention and sex is the only thing that keeps me alive and happy and the thought of going back home while necessary for various reasons and starting treatment, a normal life or giving up bare sex just makes me really really sad.

Ok, self pity. I know. Sorry. :(

I honestly dont know much about my future atm. I just see nothing when i look there except sickness (i cant believe the constant use of heavy medication will not cause some sort of health problems down the road).

Btw ... What does OP stand for? I know u are referring to me but i neverheard that term before.

And another thing i am wondering ... What would any of you say to a guy who doesnt ask you if you are healthy or not and just sticks his dick inside you and cums inside. Or a guy who cums inside you even if u ask them not to.

Is this moral to you? Is it really immoral to think that i dont really feel like i have to protect a guy like that by telling him about my status?

I know i have a responsibility to tell people (by law and morally). But imo some people are asking for it. The guy who infected me (not sure who he was exactly) didnt tell me either (if he knew) and thats the whole point. Why should knowing about it make the big difference? Anyone who fucks bare can get it. And while i am fully aware of my responsibility, its not the whole picture. And yes you can call me a bitch for saying this.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2013, 11:13:11 PM »
Look at it these ways.
Very few people are "asking for it" despite taking risks.

There are people who are "asking for HIV" - they are called bug-chasers. Google it. THey fetishize the virus and being HIV+, and they WILL ask you if you have it and if you do, they will get excited and ask you to "give" it to them... It was quite the fad about 10 years ago...  Not so much anymore. 

You have admitted that having HIV weighs heavy on your soul.  So you do NOT want to be the one to transmit it to another person. Who may be willing to have risky sex but who probably does not want an STD.  Risky sex is after all, a newish conception, mostly it just sex, the way billions of people prefer it... 

______

Regarding your fears about what it means to live with HIV and about HIV treatment, its 2013 and you just got it, and there is no reason to expect that HIV or HIV treatment is going to result in a life of sickness or a destroyed body.  Provided that you start to see a doctor regularly and follow the good advice.  The drugs are not poison, that is an old experience, doesn't apply to you...

_____

Unless you can live independently without working, for the rest of your life, or stay put somewhere AND be eligible for social assistance, you are going to need a job... Yes? No?  I say this because you need something else besides sex --- and a very rigid configuration of sex at that -- to give meaning to your life..   This could be family, friends, social life, creative things, or IMO one of the main ones for a lot of people - work....   

You are setting yourself up for a crushing emptiness if self worth and meaning only comes from being wanted by tops.  As the decades go on, you will reach your sell-by date, and no amount of travel will find you a place where you are hot on the market... Its just a fact. Besides, you'll be rather bitter at that point, which won't help on the meat market.   

The winds of change are pointing to you putting your feet on the ground and dealing with the reality of your present situation.  At the very least, it does sound like a good idea for you to get on HAART ASAP.  I suppose that means at least a sojourn wherever you are from, your nation, to get that set up and going... 

You can kick and scream, or put your head in the sand, or delay, or whatever, not going to do much good for your soul, and not going to do any good for your partners.

 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2013, 11:13:51 PM »
OP = "Original Poster" the person who starts the thread.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2013, 11:24:31 PM »
And another thing i am wondering ... What would any of you say to a guy who doesnt ask you if you are healthy or not and just sticks his dick inside you and cums inside. Or a guy who cums inside you even if u ask them not to.

Is this moral to you?


I think the protocol in most situations that arise, in which someone says nothing but barebacks you without asking about your status, and "seeds" you "without asking" , is you don't need to say anything besides "thanks, that was great" because you went along with the whole charade to begin with. 

The person you are probably "talking to" in such a situation is yourself.  Or should be.  What are you saying to yourself before, during and after this kind of sex...

You already have the butt flu, so why would you be worried about that guys morality of being a risk TO YOU?? He isn't an HIV risk to you.  Don't confuse the issue.  You got the butt flu now.

"Is it really immoral to think that i dont really feel like i have to protect a guy like that by telling him about my status?"

Here, you have to go through my 4 points.  Personal moral register. Community's moral register (if such a thing exists).  And moral register as reflected in stupid HIV criminalisation laws....  And finally, what you expect that partner would want.....

There is no simple answer and you are not so stupid as to believe there is.  You just want there to be a simple answer because that would help with your present cognitive dissonance. 

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 12:01:21 AM »
And now what do i do ..

Get used to condoms?

Uh. Did I miss something? You're HIV+. Just sleep with other poz guys who feel the way you do about condoms and get on with your life. If you're looking for us, we gather around a campfire to scare each other with superAIDS(tm) ghost stories on alternate Wednesdays at 8pm sharp. Bring a snack.

Lee
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 10:49:35 AM »
I feel a bit better now, i guess the shock faded a bit and made way for a more realistic mindset. Sorry for the late reply guys.

I am with you, mecch when you writenabout me being in need of some sort of sense in life other than sex. I knew that before getting infected but maybe now i feel the emptiness more prominent. And yes, sooner or later, when my money runs out i will probably need to get a job again (wish me luck)

Oksikoko: i hear you. Too bad you are far :) haha

A few questions and obstacles remain:

- The fact that i have to tell the people i recently had bb sex with (when i was infected but didnt know and was highly infectious i guess)

- the next few months in which i will still travel, have no meds and might mot be strong enough to always say no to bb sex.

- the question if i should tell everyone (preferably on fb cause the nsa probably knows it anyway) or not. So far i only told my doctor and 2 of my closest friends. In some moments i want to tell the whole world (via blog or fb), in others i dont want to tell anyone. I guess no one can answer that for me ...

- last but not least i dont know if i should tell my sexpartners after i am on meds or not. If my viral load is very low, it wouldnt make a difference right? I could fuck bb with anyone without risking anyones infection? Finally something positive about being positive ... :) haha unless someone tells me to be careful about other std's, hiv strains or whatever ....

Thanks everyone for listening.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 11:13:40 AM »
Hi Btmbear . There are no guarantees that you are undetectable at any one instance so if you are not disclosing you need to be having protected anal sex period .

I personally choose disclosure well before sex but I sometime think that in some instances a HIV positive sex partner may think that someone would never have unprotected sex unless they are positive themselves and a negative person makes the mistake of assuming a person who knows they are positive would never have unprotected sex without disclosing . Then there are those that simply do not care because of drugs and alcohol are involved .

Sadly the assumptions we make in the heat of the moment leads to more infections in cases like this .   

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 11:18:05 AM »
Your questions:

- If they had bb sex, they must accept the consequences. Even if someone tests positive, the 'blame' is not all yours.

- I believe it's wrong to have sex, protected or not, without disclosing your status. You have to decide that for yourself, though. How would you want to be treated if the roles were reversed?

- Undetectable does not mean 'cured'. Even with an undetectable viral load, you can still transmit the virus, even though the probability is greatly lowered. Again, if the roles were reversed, would you want a positive person keeping his status a secret?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 11:20:08 AM by oksikoko »
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
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Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 12:17:45 PM »
Oksikoko, jeff:

interesting .... there seem to exist different opinions on the subject of infectiousness when taking meds. I talked with 2 people today and yesterday and i googled a bit and some, like you 2 seem to say that its not safe enough to fuck bb with an hiv negative partner. Others otoh seem to suggest it is safe enough. Some say having bb sex with an hiv+ partner on meds is safer than fucking bb with a stranger whose status is unkown or who claims to be negative. Especially if the hiv+ partner is the bottom.

Honestly the disclosure thing worries me. In my experience it does kill the mood. A hiv- guy will not fuck you bb if you put it into his face even though you tell him you are on meds. He will most likely prefer to fuck a guy he doesnt know anything about. (even though it might be less safe rationally). At least thats my observation last few years. People dont want to talk or think about this when they have sex. Why else would people fuck bb so much?

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 12:19:13 PM »
ah and as for your question: i cared about the risk of getting infected. If the guy was on meds and not infectious, why would i care to know about it?

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 12:32:18 PM »
Unprotected anal sex puts you at a higher risk for STD's and can cause viral load spikes and then there is the issue of the undetectable HIV plasma levels does not always equal undetectable HIV in semen .

Std's can linger without symptoms for long periods of time and could lead to an HIV infection .

I see you are struggling with the issue of disclosure , we all have . At some point you must come to terms that living with HIV changes things and part of living with HIV is doing your part to prevent others from becoming infected .

HIV is inconvenient that way LOL .   ;)

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2013, 01:50:02 PM »

there seem to exist different opinions on the subject of infectiousness when taking meds. I talked with 2 people today and yesterday and i googled a bit and some, like you 2 seem to say that its not safe enough to fuck bb with an hiv negative partner. Others otoh seem to suggest it is safe enough. Some say having bb sex with an hiv+ partner on meds is safer than fucking bb with a stranger whose status is unkown or who claims to be negative. Especially if the hiv+ partner is the bottom.

Honestly the disclosure thing worries me. In my experience it does kill the mood. A hiv- guy will not fuck you bb if you put it into his face even though you tell him you are on meds. He will most likely prefer to fuck a guy he doesnt know anything about. (even though it might be less safe rationally). At least thats my observation last few years. People dont want to talk or think about this when they have sex. Why else would people fuck bb so much?

There seem to be differences of opinion because we're talking about risk, and different people have different levels of risk aversion. What might be OK for me may not be for someone else, even though the risk is the same. The study everyone cites on this issue is HPTN 052 which showed for serodiscordant heterosexual couples, maintaining an undetectable viral load reduced transmission risk by 96%. That's great unless you're in the 4%. Also note that no homosexual couples were in the study. The transmission risk for anal sex is greater than that for vaginal. (Here's a copy/paste from Quora. Click through to get active links to these studies.)

1) Anal sex, receptive - 1.4% transmission risk per sex act. Source: HIV transmission risk through anal intercourse: systematic review, meta-analysis and implications for HIV prevention.

2) Anal sex, insertive (circumcised) - 0.11% - Per-contact probability of HIV transmission in homosexual men in Sydney in the era of HAART.

3) Anal sex, insertive (uncircumcised) - 0.62 - %Ditto

4) Vaginal sex, receptive - 0.08% - Heterosexual risk of HIV-1 infection per sexual act: systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies.

5) Vaginal sex, insertive - 0.04% - Ditto

6) Oral sex, penile or vaginal - “low but non-zero transmission probability” - Systematic review of orogenital HIV-1 transmission probabilities

As for disclosure killing the mood, I would ask why you would want to have sex with someone who wouldn't have sex with you if they knew you were positive. Being HIV+ is now part of who you are, and your partners should accept that. And, as I said, I believe they have a right to choose their own level of risk. If someone is uncomfortable having sex with a poz person, I believe it's not fair for me to withhold that information, forcing them to make a risk decision with faulty data.

There are plenty of poz people who want to have sex with other poz people, so declining the advances of neggos who aren't comfortable with your status doesn't mean you'll never have sex again. I don't sleep with negative people at all, and I seem to be doing alright in that department.

And we haven't even really gotten into the potential legal risk you are putting yourself in by not disclosing. You could be one jilted lover away from wrongful imprisonment.

Lee
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
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Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2013, 06:14:36 PM »

Honestly the disclosure thing worries me. In my experience it does kill the mood. A hiv- guy will not fuck you bb if you put it into his face even though you tell him you are on meds.

Have you actually tried disclosing? 

There is a minority of members here who feel that in some situations there is no need to disclose if the sex is going to be with condoms....   (Legal considerations aside, that is...)

Your observations about whats going on in practice are not wrong.  Supposed to be 1 out of 6 gay guys in Switzerland "on the scene" - meaning hooking up here and there -- who are HIV+.   Few feel like talking about STDs in the heat of the moment.  When I was a wanton slut for many years (and HIV-) very few people asked and very few people volunteered information about HIV status.  But the sex was safe.  In the last 5 years since I was HIV+, and got curious about anonymous barebacking, yes, I found the same as you say, in sex clubs and cruisy situations, people would bareback without talking about STDs....   But, as I said, I ended up catching Hep C through that little experiment in 70's style freedom....  While I was doing it, I rationalised my potential risk to others as slim, as I was on HAART..  But slim isn't zero.  And as members such as Oksikoko explain, the moral position is to say something everywhere, every time, and just let the chips fall where they may about rejection.  There are other fish in the sea.

One of the things you seem to have an issue with is the old adage:  "two wrongs do not make a right"

You are correct. You can go out and find people willing to bareback you no questions asked.  But for the moment, you can't even find justification as presenting "minimal risk", because you'd rather continue your sex tourism for awhile, than go home and get treated...

Which begs the question.  Maybe the first step for you, who fears all this potential rejection, is to go get yourself onto HAART.   Though probably that won't change all THAT much to most HIV- guys you disclose too.  Most dont care about the subtleties of detectable and undetectable.  They just don't want to be told and once told certainly don't want to fuck an HIV+ guy.  Though there is a small group of HIV- guys who are willing to bareback (as tops) HIV+ guys who do disclose...

It is what it is...


« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:27:01 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2013, 10:34:24 PM »
Hi guys,

I was a bit more cheerful yesterday but reading the above made me feel quite sad again.

I know i am able to do unsafe sex without disclosing. I have this "dark" side inside me. And i can even back it up with rational thoughts. The best that comes to mind is the first safe sex campain i ever heard when i was young: treat everyone as if he was hiv+ and protect yourself. According to that safe sex motto everyone who fucks me bare, especially in saunas or darkrooms is stupid.

But of course i also have a different side and lees motto to not do what i dont want to be done to me is of course also in the back of my head. But then that means serosorting guys or refraining from any kind of bare sex with anyone. Even when on meds. I am not gonna count on the few hiv neg tops who would be willing to top a hiv+ btm bare.

Mecch: yes, i tried disclosing in the last few days. I didnt go to any saunas because i knew i would be tempted to fuck bb without telling. But i chatted with guys on apps and sometimes i even told guys right after the first few messages. Usually the reaction was thanks for your honestly and then it either ended or we met for coffee instead of sex. Which is ok but ....

I honestly dont see much chance to ever find a bf that way. I am picky as it is, hardly ever falling love and i am not what people in western countries would call a hottie (in asian countries thats different). Now i also need to start serosorting guys? Man ....

Btw lee ... I dont quite get it. You wrote the risk of infection when on haart for straightcouples is reduced by 96%. But then you pasted numbers where insertive anal sex has a risk of between 0,11 and 0,62%. Thats an incredibly low risk. I wonder what the risk is to get hit by a car when crossing the street.


Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2013, 10:56:05 PM »
Funny, i just did the disclosure thing again with a guywho seemed nice. His reation? Dont worry i know how its transmitted. We can always hang out, just not the sexual way. Ouch, that hurt :(

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 11:11:54 PM »
Funny, i just did the disclosure thing again with a guywho seemed nice. His reation? Dont worry i know how its transmitted. We can always hang out, just not the sexual way. Ouch, that hurt :(

Yep. You are going to get that.

But I bet dollars to donuts that if you were to hang out, sex would happen. Safer sex, of course. But sex.

You may find yourself fishingin deeper waters with disclosure, but I think you will find the catch is worth it.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 12:32:18 AM »
Btw lee ... I dont quite get it. You wrote the risk of infection when on haart for straightcouples is reduced by 96%. But then you pasted numbers where insertive anal sex has a risk of between 0,11 and 0,62%. Thats an incredibly low risk. I wonder what the risk is to get hit by a car when crossing the street.

HIV is actually rather hard to transmit. It's not like a cold or the flu.

However, 1.4% chance of contracting HIV per sex act (anal receptive) are odds most people would rather not take. From the conclusion of that particular meta-study on anal sex "Unprotected [anal intercourse] is a high-risk practice for HIV transmission, probably with substantial variation in infectiousness. The significant heterogeneity between infectiousness estimates means that pooled AI HIV transmission probabilities should be used with caution."

To reference your example, your chances of being hit by a car every time you cross the street are no doubt much, much lower. If you saw someone about to be hit by a car, would you warn them or just say they deserved it for not looking both ways even though they know they should? OK, that metaphor is stretched beyond repair.

But of course i also have a different side and lees motto to not do what i dont want to be done to me is of course also in the back of my head. But then that means serosorting guys or refraining from any kind of bare sex with anyone. Even when on meds. I am not gonna count on the few hiv neg tops who would be willing to top a hiv+ btm bare.

Hey, it's not my motto. I'm a terrible person, but that doesn't mean I don't have high ideals for the rest of you. I don't personally do the serodiscordant thing, because, ew, gross, but I was specifically referencing the non-disclosure raw sex with what I wrote above. If he knows you're poz and doesn't care, that may change your moral calculus. Or it may not. But it's not the same scenario.

Now i also need to start serosorting guys? Man ....

Don't sound so disappointed. You do realize, don't you, that the best looking guys are almost always positive. And now you have a reason to say hello.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 03:10:20 AM »
I honestly dont see much chance to ever find a bf that way. I am picky as it is, hardly ever falling love and i am not what people in western countries would call a hottie (in asian countries thats different). Now i also need to start serosorting guys? Man ....


Man you are clouding your own issues.  Dumping EVERYTHING together into the same pot.  Using rationales hat apply to one scenario in another, where they don't apply, just because its convenient.

I thought we were talking all along about your need for bare dick in you, in one offs... cruisy spots. internet hookups, etc.    Priority!  No condom, you need it bare. Thats what gives your life meaning and you're so sad and frustrated now that its both morally complicated and not as easy to find if you consider the morals....   

Suddenly you are talking now about how to get a Boyfriend. 
 :o :-\ ???

Listen, if the goal is a boyfriend, you are absolutely NOT going to get a HIV- boyfriend if you have bareback sex first and sometime after the start of the bareback sex, you disclose....   You yourself said it.   You could, however, start a relation by bareback sex and if by chance he's also HIV+, I could imagine you might find yourselves happy bedfellows if the MUTUAL disclosure comes later on.

You're making this much more difficult than it needs to be, and also have the nerve to complain about it being difficult.  If the goal is a boyfriend, then for the WIDEST possible pool of candidates, (and YOU need a wide pool, bacause you are picky....) you should be willing to have sex with condoms.....   And to disclose up front.

Otherwise, just "have it your way".   Go on barebacking anonymously and without disclosure and take satisfaction in that as best as you can....    Put HIV+ in your online profile and say you are looking for the same.  Go to sex clubs that are known to be mostly for bareback. Go to special nights at other sex clubs, that are advertised as "no limit".  Or just go on dong it bareback whereever and whenever, and take comfort in the idea that its the other guy who is "stupid" and not following the sex rules everyone knows, and if you transmit HIV, well, too bad, that's the breaks.  Tough luck for him.

Or, take one of the other suggestions here - if bare sex is the priority, but you'd like a "relation" with the person attached to the unprotected dick, just let it all hang out, disclose, and seek out ONLY other hiv+ guys...

You seem to think relationships are based primarily on physical attraction.  NOT SO. 

Your track record not being able to be in a relationship does not speak to your looks but rather your behaviour and your self-centredness
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:19:04 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 06:12:21 AM »
Point blank, how many people do you think are going to be boyfriend material if you refuse to use a condom, and also refuse to go on HAART? 
Well, that narrows it down to HIV+ guys who bareback.

On the other hand, in a nutshell, if you want to continue barebacking hither nither and not disclosing, then accept the constraints of that setting.  Its morally muddled and you aren't going to get a "good housekeeping stamp of approval". 

IMO it would be a step in self-esteem, loving yourself, respecting yourself, to go on HAART, and thus also a step in respecting others.  At least then if you want to continue your barebacking and not discussing STDS, you'll be lowering the risk for others. 

Its a sort of karma we are talking about, you'll be a more attractive person by having acted out of concern for others.  Even if you're still not disclosing, that energy of at least some concern for others will be out there.  You won't be a person who considers others stupid and deserving to suffer for their stupidity.

As I said, my personal feeling is that with things like HEP C out there, which can be transmitted through bareback gay anal sex, (fact few people seem to take into account), and with the rise of antibiotic resistant STDs, casual barebacking poz-with- poz isn't a win-win situation...  Either.

If you have a real desire to open yourself to a relation, start making peace with condoms and get your mind ready for HAART.



“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline curious1here

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 08:09:39 PM »
Btmbear, you are a grown man and you seem to be looking for every excuse in the book to have unprotected sex with negative guys without telling them.

Remember one thing.... NOT everyone is educated on HIV and  many guys especially in countries other than U.K, U.S.A ( even some there) Think if someone looks healthly they don't have HIV, not because in denial but because sex education on HIV in many countries is very limited. So they will have unprotected sex thinking they are genuinely safe.

The above posters have given good advice. You are positive, deal with it. Find other guys who are poz or if you meet a neg guy, tell him, explain HAART, the risks.

That's life! It's isn't always the way we want it to be. Sorry if anyone find my post offensive but we are all responsible adults.
 

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 10:08:36 AM »
Mhh ....

mecch doesnt seem to like my character much, judging from his answers. Maybe he is right. Always thought i am a good guy but my weakness is pleasure. I do things that are bad for me (too much food, too much sweets, too much sex, too much bare sex, ...). I dont think i am alone here. Think about the pro/contra discussion about smoking in bars and public places (not so much in us but in some parts of europe). Second hand smoke is clearly a danger to the people working there and the nonsmokers going but yet the antismoking laws are not so strict. Why? Cause people prefer to sometimes enjoy something even if it has potential risks. OK, i know the analogy with HIV is a weak one.

curious1there:

If i was a grown man would i have fucked bare so much in countries where HIV rates are high? Or at all? I knew the risks on a rational level.

Honestly i am not sure i can always do the right thing. The right thing for you guys is:

- go on Haart (that i will do eventually when i am back home)
- always tell before sex (that i am not so sure about)
- look for poz guys (Can try I guess although here in asia almost no one will have that written in their gayromeo profile)
- Use condoms (just bought very thin ones in good intention but honestly, i tried for years to protect myself with them and enjoy it without much success, not sure I will suddenly enjoy safe sex)

Maybe i am a bad guy, I also feel bad now. Seems fair ...
:(

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 10:28:12 AM »
You seem to be saying that your desire for BB sex trumps your concern for not infecting others , that's what is alarming .

Yes , the feedback you have received has been fair and civil and I hope it stays that way . If you come here and make admissions like you have done then people have no choice but to honestly address them .

I sincerely hope you get it together and accept your responsibility's that all people living with HIV face .         

Offline wolfter

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 10:37:43 AM »
Fortunately for me, I have learned to type responses in Word before responding.  Therefore, it gives me time to consider my responses.

I soon realized that my entire response would have garnered me a "time out".  I'm totally confused what you're seeking here. 
productivity breeds content

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2013, 11:02:32 AM »
I am not sure what I seek either.

I am just being honest. Maybe thats my problem. Makes me sound like i am a bad character guy although i am pretty sure many people have these or even worse thoughts (and I am 100% sure some people do pretty bad things as well out there judging from what I see in real life.

I kinda regret to have done the test in a way (ups, another honest thought).
It was bad to fuck bare before but at least it was morally ok. (no one will judge you if u fuck bare or in an unkown state). But once you do the test, and even if you go on Haart but not tell .... ups, you are a bad guy or not grown up or whatever.

Of course I dont want to hurt anyone. Why would i have such a problem telling the guys I have recently (before my test) fucked bare with if i was so bad? I could just not tell them and ignore the risk to them.

I just honestly feel bad for my future with the options you guys present to me. It honestly makes me very sad, gives me stomach ache and wahtnot. BUt yeah, maybe thats the only way to be a good guy from now on.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2013, 11:26:42 AM »
Its not "good" and "bad".  Its not black or white.  People are encouraging you to include some nuance in your behaviors and in your opinions about others.
Nobody is saying "bad boy". 
You want a boyfriend / lover / partner it's a quality you need to start developing.

About enjoying one-offs - yeah you're correct there is plenty of irrational behavior and most of us have been there or are still there. It's sex, it's messy. You missed my point about "two wrongs don't make a right". 
You can bareback now, un treated, with detectable viral load, and not disclose, yep, you'll find partners.  They are being reckless.  But so are you. It's two "wrongs".   

Saying "people do this" - doesn't make "this" right.  It's just simultaneous wrongs. 

That's life.   You can take the "high road", the middle road, the low road, or ALL the roads.  Just know what road you are on and stop mislabeling.

If most of the people are on the low road, it's not magically transformed to the high road.

You can move through your sadness and disappointment and frustration with your new reality, or you can put your head in the sand.  But you are here in this forum and as they say, there are some things in life "once you see it, it cannot be unseen."

Nobody but nobody does well living with HIV if there is denial about the new reality of having HIV...  That is a truth.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:30:35 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2013, 11:57:42 AM »
I just honestly feel bad for my future with the options you guys present to me. It honestly makes me very sad, gives me stomach ache and wahtnot. BUt yeah, maybe thats the only way to be a good guy from now on.

HIV's not for the weak of heart. :) Luckily, people who test positive tend to grow stronger than they were before, so you'll probably be fine.

Even though your medical prognosis might be quite good (if you listen to your doctor), there's still a lot of social stuff - stigma and responsibility - to take on. You may not want it, but it's yours. I quote the great Katy Perry: "It's never easy to be chosen, never easy to be called, standing on the frontline when the bombs start to fall" Let Katy be your light in the darkness.

I digress. The secret to HIV is: you'll be fine if you want to be. It's OK if you don't feel fine right now or if you don't feel fine most of the time. But all in all, it's best to just be fine with things you can't control - like your HIV status and its consequences. You only have control over how you approach things and how you treat people, including yourself. In case you like platitudes and black/white thinking, here are some aphorisms I've just made up for living with HIV.

1) Don't knowingly put others at risk without their consent. And even with consent, probably you shouldn't. Negative people, I've said before, are mostly ignorant when it comes to HIV. We shouldn't exploit their naivete, the poor dears.
2) Don't put yourself at risk unless you've honestly evaluated it and are prepared for its consequences. Honestly.
3) Be responsible about your health.  Hard fact that will win me no friends for saying: you now have a contagious disease. The better you manage it, the healthier you (and your community) will be. And it is manageable for most people, depending on the details of their health. Talk to your doctor.
4) Live your life. To quote a genius from the last millennium: It's a fact that people are still having sex, lust keeps on lurking, nothing makes them stop, this AIDS thing's not working.

OK, I have some calculated risks to take this afternoon. Best of luck to you.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
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Offline moxieinme

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2013, 01:05:08 PM »
Thank you for that beautiful response and advice Oksikoko.

I never thought I'd want to be one to quote Katy Perry, but now I have to re-think that.

Here's to the great gift of resilience!
Salvage therapy wrangler, riding the poz bronco and dodging bullets for over 24 years.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CD4 at diagnosis 1989 = 330
Began treatment (AZT) 1989
Lowest labs 1998: CD4=74, 7%, VL=750,000
First sustained undetectable VL in 20 years (2009); CD4=315
Current labs (12/13): CD4=637, 27%, VL=<20
Current meds: Prezista, Isentress, Intellence, Norvir

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2013, 11:26:56 PM »
hey

i feel weak most of the time lately. Actually i have a track record of being weak. Strenght was never my strong suit so to speak. So if u quote Katy Perry ... or other people who have showed strength it just makes me realize how weak i am in comparison. Not sure I can change here or where that strength should be coming from.

The funny thing is that sex was one of the very few things in life that made me feel strong afterwards. Now i feel thats stripped away from me for good so i feel even weaker than before.

Its weird how actually becoming hiv+ is very different from thinking about becoming it before. And i so hate the feeling i have now. Very very weak  :'(

Sorry guys for giving you a hard time with my stupid posts.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2013, 12:33:55 AM »
hey

i feel weak most of the time lately. Actually i have a track record of being weak. Strenght was never my strong suit so to speak. So if u quote Katy Perry ... or other people who have showed strength it just makes me realize how weak i am in comparison. Not sure I can change here or where that strength should be coming from.

The funny thing is that sex was one of the very few things in life that made me feel strong afterwards. Now i feel thats stripped away from me for good so i feel even weaker than before.

Its weird how actually becoming hiv+ is very different from thinking about becoming it before. And i so hate the feeling i have now. Very very weak  :'(

Sorry guys for giving you a hard time with my stupid posts.


Strength comes from experience, and growth.

Experience and growth often come from pain.

Maybe, just maybe, instead of looking for your strength in the eyes of the endless list of guys who want to bed you, you can stop for a while.

Stop and live with the pain of your changed life for a little. Walk with that pain.

You might be amazed that you find strength inside yourself that you didn't know you had.

Your posts, your struggle, your feelings are not stupid.

They will help make you a better person. Someone who has so much more to offer the world and the hot guys in it.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline ohwell

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2013, 09:09:44 PM »
"The best that comes to mind is the first safe sex campain i ever heard when i was young: treat everyone as if he was hiv+ and protect yourself. According to that safe sex motto everyone who fucks me bare, especially in saunas or darkrooms is stupid."

I don't see how you can conclude that, some people would fuck you bare because they are prey of their urges, some are uneducated, some think they'll be lucky not to get it. Our parents had to have unsafe sex at some point for us to be here and i bet most of them didnt get tested.

Anyway, there are plenty of safe sex that you can't have if you don't want to disclose, oral sex, mutual masturbation, etc. You might be surprised when you find other ways to have fun.

they made me do it

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2013, 11:16:48 PM »
As God as my witness, why not pursue treatment as prevention?

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2013, 10:00:01 PM »
Jkinatl2:

Thanks for your 2 answers. I didnt respond anymore cause i didnt feel like i could add anything worth posting but i did appreciate your answers.

Yes once i am back i will get treatment and if that would make me safe enough for my partners that would be great. But there seem to be differing opinions on this and i am not sure if the "disclosing laws" will discern between a person using meds and one who doesnt.

Not sure i will turn out stronger than before but yeah thats a possibility. I feel a bit better again now after the first shock. I am kinda avoiding sex though. I met a few guys (much less than before) but went out for coffee instead of inviting them to my room.

How do u guys go about disclosing it to your friends or at work? I more and more feel like posting it on facebook and get it over with once and for all. I dont wanna go to each and every person and tell them personally and then keeping track of who i told and who i didnt tell. I dont mind the people who dont like me anymore after telling them but i am a bit afraid of other consequences like problems finding a job or maybe insurance companies not covering you (travel insurance etc)

How do you guys deal with that?

Offline darryaz

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2013, 11:10:44 PM »
How do u guys go about disclosing it to your friends or at work?

I won't address whether or not it's a good idea to disclose at work.  I'll leave that to someone else.

When I decided to announce to the people at work that I was gay I told the biggest gossip in the office.  She took care of the rest.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2013, 06:26:07 AM »
Recently in Switzerland, being on HAART and undetectable DID make a difference in one (1) case of nondisclosure.....   But I would not count on it where you are.  I don't think it makes a difference in most places with these laws.

As far as employment discrimination.  - What country do you live in? Is it legal in your country to discriminate against HIV+ workers in the workplace?  Even if it is illegal to discriminate, is it still common???   

Don't disclose on facebook!!!!  Are you nuts? 

Unless you feel like being an activist for HIV awareness, rights, etc, -- which is highly unlikely since you don't even feel like telling an intimate partner --- nobody at a place of employment needs to know.  Of if someone there needs to know, there should be a good reason - a reason that benefits you.  Or some legal requirement.  Otherwise, what's in it for you? Nothing.   

As for friends and family, disclosing to the world on facebook seems "passive-agressive."  "Because its too tiresome to tell each person...."   

If you feel like some particular family member or some friends should know, or you want them to know, then just tell that person. That would be nice of you. Or en email to THAT person. Or phone call... 

When I decided to disclose socially, I just told about 10 friends and said it was not a secret and it wasn't long before everyone knew.   I have never disclosed at work and in Switzerland, a very discrete culture, the gossip never passed the barrier between friends and professional.   Careful where you are, this may not be the case.....

I got the impression you are unemployed, so why are you talking about disclosing at work?  I thought you were on permanent holiday outside your country?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2013, 09:47:34 AM »
Hey again,

I am not far if u are in switzerland. I am in the country next to you in the east. Haha
I have always been very lucky with my outings as a gay person. Not sure why but whomever i told it, friends, strangers, people at work, ... I never had to deal with any discrimination. And i honestly prefer to be as open as possible with everyone.

I think you have a bit of a twisted opinion about my character. Maybe thats because i focused so much on the sex stuff at first cause i am truly afraid this hiv thing will make my sexlife more difficult than it was ever before (and it was never really easy for me until a few years ago).

It may sound very weird in a way but i would have much less of a problem disclosing hiv to my friends, my coworkers or anyone else than to my sexual partners. The latter are the ones that will most likely discriminate me by not having sex with me anymore or insisting on condoms (just tried again today with a condom, i soooo didnt enjoy it).

I think being open about hiv in a very undramatic way (like posting it on fb as if it was just any personal update) would make it easier for me and everyone else around me. My experience about outing myself as gay taught me that the less fuss i make about it, the easier it is for others to accept. As for work ... I have always worked in rather small companies where a lot of personal information was known about everyone. And i kinda enjoyed not having to hide anything.

Of course in the future, early next year, i will have to find a new job (unles i get my old one back which i am not sure i want). And i am kinda looking for a job where i can travel for work so it might be in a bigger company and there i am not sure it would be ok to talk about hiv and being gay.

PS: if i would disclose on fb i would only disclose to my friends list of course, not to the public.

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2013, 09:58:07 AM »
mecch, why so aghast at Facebook disclosure? I barely use it, but I did a general purpose, 'hey, I'm HIV positive' message just so I wouldn't have to tell people on a case-by-case basis. Worked out pretty well, though I'm sure some people thought it was TMI. I'm not ashamed of being poz, so it didn't seem like a big deal to me.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
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Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2013, 10:23:06 AM »
I am against it for the OP, considering his context and motivations.

I'm fine with some people going this route.

How does it help someone like him, however, who hasn't accepted his own status.  And hasn't informed himself yet of the ramifications for his professional and personal life, from now on. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2013, 02:59:03 PM »
Indeed, that is a genie you cannot put back in the bottle.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2013, 05:28:16 PM »
It's quite possible it's a genie that should be let out. Will it be hard? Possibly. But stigma will never change if we all keep cowering in our hidey holes.

But, yeah, I agree, don't do it if you're not going to be able to take the consequences. It won't do anyone any good.

(But on second thought, what consequences?) Speaking as someone whose life exploded, who lost absolutely everything, but who seems to be doing just peachy nonetheless, I can assure you you can live through most of the consequences of being open.

- If your job would be at risk, ask yourself if you really want to work for a company that would fire you for being positive. You might say "we don't all have the option to be picky" to which I say we have more options than we often admit. Some are more comfortable than others, but no one promised us a comfortable life, and the societal (plus personal) benefits of disclosure might just outweigh your (temporary probably) discomfort. Discomfort builds character. ;)

- If you're afraid your family will reject you, do you really plan to hide it your whole life? Tell them now, and they'll get over it in time to see their grandkids. If they're really, honestly going to reject you over this, then that's a dysfunctional relationship you'd probably be better off without. You could instead be focusing on developing your friendships. Or relationships with anyone who won't reject you over a disease.

- Speaking of friends... Afraid they might reject you? Repeat the refrain. Do you really want friends who would be bothered by this? Really? You might have to go through a lonely period while life readjusts and you're meeting new people, but I promise, you can survive a little loneliness, especially when the rewards are so great.

So, what, exactly, are the consequences of being honest? Everyone's experience is different, and I have no doubt that some people have legitimate fears. But many people are just afraid in general, which is understandable, but likely unnecessary and a crap way to make yourself live.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2013, 01:47:06 AM »
Oksikoko:

I am with you on this. I have always been very open about being gay at work, with friends .. Why would i wantto work for someone who doesnt accept me the way i am?

So yes maybe i should continue being open about my hiv infection.
I dont have much family left anymore and i am pretty sure most of my friends wont have a problem.

I am a bit afraid of their Judgement though. While most (liberal) people accept you as gay, they might pass judgment on you getting yourself infected. I mean its true. It was my own fault, i could have protected myself and some of my friends even warned me numerous times to be careful. I will have to expect quite a few judgmental replies i assume ..

You wrote your life exploded, you lost everything ..
What happened?

Offline intaglio

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2013, 08:16:59 AM »
Btmbear,

I think you are getting ahead of yourself, so to speak. Until you can put HIV in proper perspective in your own head, you are not ready to go telling everyone else in your life your status. This is all still new to you.

You need to live with this information for a few months. You need to show yourself that this changes very little in your life at the moment. You need to get used to monitoring the progress of your HIV.

If you need to talk to someone, talk to a licensed therapist that deals with sexuality issues. You should talk to a therapist about your fears of being judged negatively -and how to deal with any that might happen. You need to address your other fears by educating yourself about HIV. Being able to talk about HIV rationally can go a long way toward nullifying others' negative attitudes.

Once you live with this for a while, you'll find you've answered a lot of your questions.

As for your condom issues, you might have a slight allergy to latex. The irritation and discomfort could be your body reacting to exposure to the latex. There are alternatives to latex condoms that don't provoke an allergic reaction. You should try them.

You're going to be fine. Give yourself time to deal with this.
Reality is frequently inaccurate.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2013, 08:35:10 AM »
And consider your professional future and if a digital tatoo of your HIV+ status is going to be a manageable situation, or not.   Not clear what your job is, what country you will make your career, etc etc. Is possible social or professional discrimination something you want to add to your present challenges? 

Tell all your friends and family however you want, of course...  But watch out for your own integrity. What can you handle, what not... And when. 

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline friskyguy

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2013, 07:07:09 AM »
oksiko
It's quite possible it's a genie that should be let out. Will it be hard? Possibly. But stigma will never change if we all keep cowering in our hidey holes.

Wow how simplistic,

there are some of us who who would like to disclose but in doing so would mean a quick deportation and fucked for life!!!! We all don't live in your utopia world!!
Sero converted Sept '10 / Confirmed + Dec '10
Jan '11, VL 9,500 / CD4 482 (32%)
Feb '11, VL 5,800 / CD4 680 (37%)
start Atripla
Mch '11, VL UD / CD4 700 (42%)
Jun  '11, VL UD / CD4 750 (43%)
swap to Kivexa and Efav. due to osteopenia diag. (DEXA) / kidney issues ( decline in eGFR to 77 )
start supplements - Vit D3 / Omega 3 / multivitamin / mini aspirin
Dec '11,  VL UD <20 /  CD4 670 (49%)  / CD4:CD8 = 1.4
all labs now within normal ranges
Mch '12,  VL UD / CD4 600 (51%)
Sep '12,  VL UD / CD4 810 (51%)
Mch '13   VL UD / CD4 965 (56%)
Sep '13   VL UD / CD4 (not taken)
Dec '13   VL UD / CD4 901 (35%) / CD4:CD8 = 1.1  /  eGFR > 100

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2013, 07:39:00 AM »
oksiko
Wow how simplistic,

there are some of us who who would like to disclose but in doing so would mean a quick deportation and fucked for life!!!! We all don't live in your utopia world!!

Lee was talking about a specific issue with the OP and I don't think he was making a blanket statement if you keep it in context .

There are many reasons not to disclose such as fear of violence or economic hardships that could result from it .

Its fact that all of the ones that did or do live their lives openly as HIV positive have made a positive impact on the fight against stigma . The willingness of many to be open about their HIV status has led the FDA and governments to fast track new treatment options that saved countless lives , there are far to many benefits to list that we have reaped from those who are willing to be counted as HIV positive .

I always have thought if the only reason you are in the closet about living with HIV is to make it easier to get laid it hurts all of us eventually when people find any way when you get hauled off to jail for not disclosing , we all get painted with the aids spreading monster brush and the cycle of stigma and discrimination can do its nasty job of making it all the more difficult for folks who are struggling with coming to terms with their infection , like the OP .

I understand why some people will not live openly with HIV , some of those reason I respect .   

Offline Niceguy2013

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2013, 10:46:38 AM »
Jeff G sometimes I wish I had a like button for your replies!

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2013, 10:53:32 AM »
Jeff G sometimes I wish I had a like button for your replies!

Aww thanks .  :) .

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2013, 12:11:42 PM »
there are some of us who who would like to disclose but in doing so would mean a quick deportation and fucked for life!!!! We all don't live in your utopia world!!

Had you read everything I wrote, you would have noted the following:

"Everyone's experience is different, and I have no doubt that some people have legitimate fears. But many people are just afraid in general, which is understandable, but likely unnecessary and a crap way to make yourself live."
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

Offline oksikoko

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2013, 02:30:40 PM »
Oksikoko:

You wrote your life exploded, you lost everything ..
What happened?

In a nutshell: all in a four-month period I became HIV+ (after a particularly loathsome acute retroviral syndrome), unemployed (the nonprofit I worked for closed), homeless (I was distracted), had some mixed state bipolar psychosis (since medicated, you're welcome), suffered some assault ( :( ). Not to mention minor irritations like Hurricane Sandy drowning my neighborhood and not having heat or hot water for months. Also not to mention the things I just don't want to mention here. Through this period, I didn't have friends or family, so it sort of sucked. Just a few years ago, I had a decent place, a nice freelance career, an artistic endeavor that was going really well, a dog, a husband. Notice I mention the dog first.

The lessons are: "have friends and family" and "don't panic, nothing's really a big deal, and even if it is you have to suck up and face it anyway so why not start now? OK, I'll get your boots". The first can be difficult, (I'm still working on it), but the second you can do anytime.
Code: [Select]
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2013, 10:22:45 PM »
Friskyguy:

Are you a foreign worker in a country like UAE or Singapore? Cause i read that workers there are frequently tested for hiv anyway. Plus you cant get a work visa without doing a test, the latter seems to be similar in many countries afaik. Thats also one of the many things i am afraid of ... My limited options finding work somewhere outside my home country.

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2013, 10:38:50 PM »
Oksikoko:

Btw i love your nick, it sounds sweet and funny :)
Your experience made me cry a bit when i read it. I cant possibly imagine how it feels to go through all that. Glad you have your dog now :) i hope you boyfriend will be number 1 some day though haha :)

I have had a much easier life so far so i guess i shouldnt complain. The worst i have had to fight with in my life wasthe death of my parents and the lonelyness due to my introvert character and the hard time i have to maintain friendships or fall in love with someone.

I think if i told everyone i was hiv+ not much would change. I could probably still get my old job back cause my boss was a really nice and liberal person. I just wouldnt be much happy with it. Most of my friends would judge me and hold me responsible for becoming infected due to unsafe sex but ultimately most would probably stand by me.

My fear of being open to the public in general are more related to getting a new job, getting travel/health insurances, being allowed to go to various countries and maybe even work there and last but not least, i know it sounds so cheesy, getting laid. Oh well ...

I am so happy being open worked for you!
 

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2013, 10:48:19 PM »
Btw thank you all here for all your nice and interesting answers!

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2013, 11:59:53 PM »
Hey again

I just had an interesting way of disclosing (or not) on gayromeo. Can any of you tell me if that would be considered a legal way of disclosing or even moral? I think morally (for me) it would be ok. But see for yourself:

He: What are u looking for?

Me: Mhh depends. Some part of me wants nasty bare sex, another wants a friendship, a small one longs for a relationship so i cant really say haha

He:I am open for all any suggestions you have mentioned in your previous message... Would be nice if we can manage to have hot bare sex soon;-)
Relationship; I am open for it but will have to see if chemistry is great and sex is wonderful;-)
Anything you want to know more about me?

Me: Haha but your safe sex status says always :)) haha

He: What can you trust on GR profile... I would say there is only this issue on my profile is unreal;-) hahahaha

Me: Are u aware of the risks? I could be pos :)

He: It could be vice versa ;-)

Me: I know. U dont care? :)

He: I am willing to take that risk and have my own responsibility;-)
What do you think?

Me:  Well your risk as a top is lower anyway. I just want u to be sure to know what u do :)

He:  I know what I am doing... Don't worry about that;-)
Am I allow to fuck you bare?


So what do you guys think? Personally i am assuming he is poz cause he seems intelligent from the way he answers and still doesnt seem to care about hiv.

Offline marcmoral16

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2013, 01:24:04 AM »
I've read this thread several times trying to find the right way to answer and to be polite and charismatic as possible. Your way of thinking unfortunately is all too common. Many people play the game of chicken with their lives. The point is it YOUR life so you know all the variables. Other people don't know, and yes some maybe naive and think they can't catch it having a bare back sex, but that's there choice not yours to make for them. If your not gonna be honest and tell them up front then you are very dark, and that's not good at all and I feel sad for it.

I wish I knew my partner was positive, he didn't disclose to me. Yes its my fdault for going bareback but I wish I knew. Actually I had the RIGHT to know, its called common courtesy. Seven years later we are still together so I forgave and sought treatment together.

I'm not a praying person but I'll pray tonight that clarity and wisdom come to.

My honest thoughts and if it gets me banned or a "timeout" I'll accept that.
Tested Positive Jan 16 2013
CD4 119 6% VL 23980
Started Complera Feb 2013
March CD4 199 9% VL 1000
May CD4 255 12% VL 334
June CD4 284 15% VL 172
Switched to Stribild middle June 2013
July CD4 325 22% VL 51
October CD4 341 23% VL UD!!
Jan 2014 CD4 343 20% VL <20
July 2014 CD4 450 26% VL <20

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2013, 03:20:00 AM »
Marc:

First of all i dont see why u should get banned for your post. Second you are a great person for forgiving your partner and staying with him. Nt everyone would do that.

Asfor your critisism towards me: are you referring to the whole thread or just the chat on gayromeo i posted recently? Because i think in the chat i had with this guy ( btw he is 30 and not a dumb kid) he made it pretty clear that he knows the risks and takes responsibility for himself. I think thats a clear statement even though i only partly disclosed.

As for your wish to have known before or having a right to know ..

Morally yes, probably. But in real life so many things are unkown to us. The whole life is a gamble in a way (thats a very philosophical approach i know) and humans dont always do what they are expected to do. I at least am conflicted about it and trying but i have talked to quite a few guys out there who dont even want to know, dont want to tell or worse, lie about it. Does that make them assholes? Probably, but some are still loveable as you found out with your boyfriend.

The whole thing is difficult lol

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2013, 03:37:30 AM »
The conversation you report on Gayromeo is ridiculous. You are two grown men.  "Ha ha".  Don't build your new sexuality and your new morality on the Byzantine bizarreness of "honesty" "communication" and "negotiation" that one finds on Gay Romeo.
One or the other needs to offer CLEAR HIV satus statement, in that conversation, right after it became clear you both were interested in bareback.  But nope, it sputters on with nervous "hahahas" and one gets the impression you are both so shot full of lies and delusions.  You really shouldn't get involved with such games, and game players, Btmbear...  OR not until you are strong enough to cut through the bullshit and try to get what you want without all the shady "he said she said" non-statements.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 03:40:32 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2013, 01:27:31 PM »
Mecch:

 arent you reacting a bit harsh calling it ridiculous? Not every discussion has to be dead serious. And most of (my) chats are a bit ironic, sarcastic or with a bit of hahas and lots of smileys. The point of the chat was to find out if my sexpartner is aware of the risk with unsafe sex. He clearly stated that he is and that he is resonsible for himself. I domt see why i have to tell a 30 year old man who graduated from universitz (as i later found out): oh no, i cant let you fuck me bare until u have signed a statement that i am hiv+ and you know the risks.

Imo i have made it clear that i might be pos and that fucking me might be a risk to him. He made it clear that he could be hiv pos and agreed to take his part in the responsibility.

Imo not everything has to be spelled out if someone can read between the lines. Even when i know i am hiv+ i cannot take over 100% of someone elses responsibility for himself. That would be ridiculous imo.


Offline marcmoral16

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2013, 01:48:40 PM »
BtmBear,


SPELLED out isnt the same as telling someone and that is the issue. Your going around as a school child and and being very ambiguous. Your putting other people health at risk, regardless if your dropping hints or not. You have a disease that can affect other people very negatively and not only destroy your life but theirs as well.You seem to be ignoring that very fact!

Yes everyone should be responsible for themselves and show some interest in knowing the effects of HIV/AIDS.

Yes your ADULTS

but your neglecting your RESPONSIBILITY as an "ADULT" to inform people and not beat around the bush. I don't know if its that you dont have morals I dont want to really assume but your leaving me no choice.

You flatly don't care and have no regard for people. I will give you one thing though, your lack of compassion perfectly suits you for the route you have chosen.

Btmbear I wish you all the best.
Tested Positive Jan 16 2013
CD4 119 6% VL 23980
Started Complera Feb 2013
March CD4 199 9% VL 1000
May CD4 255 12% VL 334
June CD4 284 15% VL 172
Switched to Stribild middle June 2013
July CD4 325 22% VL 51
October CD4 341 23% VL UD!!
Jan 2014 CD4 343 20% VL <20
July 2014 CD4 450 26% VL <20

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2013, 02:38:27 PM »
Interesting, my doctor just recently told me hiv today is a very good managable chronic disease. He didnt mention it would destroy my life. Seems like that old fear from the 80ies is brought up when the time calls for it.

Anyway, i am not gonna argue about my character with you. If you think you know a persons character just by reading a few posts someone made about a highly conflicted issue he has than thats your problem. I am just saying this: if i was this egoistic ass you think i am than why did i start this thread in the first place? Wouldnt i rather go around fucking and infecting everyone without wasting my time here?

But i have to also stay true to my needs and my character (which is playful in general) in some way. I wont put on a death mask everytime i chat with a new guy and ask him to sign a statement that he is risking his life fucking the hiv+ butt of mine. I will never be able to live even remotely positively that way.

I have to find a way to deal with this in a way that will allow me to not think of life threatenig and deadly everytime i get to know someone. Maybe you have forgotten how it is to date people. Talking abut death and sickness is not the best way to get laid.

I have recently told all of the people i still have contact with and i had sex with before my test, i have (directly) told all the guys who wrote me about sex (of which none wanted to pursue the sex after i told them but thanked me for my honesty) and i just had sex once with the guy i had this playful conversation with on gayromeo. I still think that my conversation was pretty clear despite the hahas and that his reaction was even more clear.

"I am willing to take the risk have my own responsibility. I know what i am doing, dont worry about that" those sentences from a 30yo university graduate sound very clear to me.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2013, 02:43:55 PM »
Sweetie I'm not saying you are ridiculous, just that sort of chat...  YES, people sure do chat like that on Gay Romeo.  Doesn't mean you should continue...
Soon as you figured out he was open to bareback, you could say, "cause I'm hiv+ and I like it like that."  and if you have made any progress, you could also add: "but I can play safe, too."
Chances are if you already got the hint hint smile haha, he could very well reply "i'm pos too".  Or maybe he would drop the flirt like a hot stone and run away.... 
Eventually, if you are undetectable, you could throw that factoid into the conversation as well.
As is, you are bothering to converse about sex and risk (yes, good for you, bravo - rather than only doing it with no talk in a sex club, etc.) but you aren't fully going the distance. 
Fact is, your butt is a route of transmission, for the moment.

And what if this guy (who you assume is so clever but is just as cagey as you are being) "assumes" you must be HIV+ and undetectable...   Well. that's not the case.  OR what if he's really a dum dum and assumes you are HIV-...  You didn't say anything to the contrary....

yada yada yada...

« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 02:46:28 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2013, 02:48:52 PM »
Your doctor is correct.

And if you get your head out of the sand and live well with HIV, you won't have big health isssue.

Continue with the wink wink and judging people by their university diplomas, and barebacking with strangers, who seem to be ok with it, and you'll end up with some hideous STDS to fight along with the HIV.

Do this non-disclosure thing in the wrong country, you could end up in jail.

Do this non-disclosure thing with a dum dum who's not protecting himself, your butt will transmit HIV a few times.

But, its a bunch of "people who should know better" so no bad kharma for you...
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2013, 02:59:23 PM »
Let's look at it this way. Lets say you are chatting up a guy online. That's already a relationship. Communication between 2 humans. There are smiles and what not.  ANd you hint hint about risk and barebacking and never say anything specific, neither of you.  But its unspokenly agreed to meet and bareback.  And he knows he has Hep C.  And you meet, he tops you, and gives you Hep C.  Would you be a bit put out that he didn't tell you and give you the chance to say no, I don't want to be your bottom and take that risk?



“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2013, 03:01:06 PM »
Mecch:

Ok, i get your point, i think. True, i didnt go all the distance. I had the feeling that i didnt need to because of his reply that he could be pos too. That made me think that he is answering on the same level (also in a playful manner). Usually an hiv neg guy would not react like that, right? He would either not wanna talk about risks if he doesnt care or he would ask directly if i am "clean" if i got him scared. Every other guy reacted like that. And then i told them to better not take the risk with me.

But with this guy i felt it was ok to not spell it out. Also, on another level ...
If someone tells you that he is aware of the risks of bareback sex with a stranger that INCLUDES the risk that the stranger is hiv+
What other major risk would there be for a gay man these days? All the other stds (except hep c are easily treatable).

So again, if someone tells me he knows the risks and takes responsibility ofhis own actions why do i have to spell it out anymore? The risk he is taking already includes the possibility that i might be infectious to him.

Unless i am missing a point .....

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2013, 03:07:12 PM »
Because you are asking too many questions about what the other person is thinking and supposing and assuming and expecting to justify your own behaviour. (not saying I'm HIV+).
Just lay it on the line and you are golden... Right? 
As long as you are talking, it seems the classiest thing to do.
If that guy IS HIV+, he may or may not feel comfortable telling a stranger, less comfortable than screwing you, in fact.  So you say, I'm HIV+ and the guy says "I accept responsibility for my own actions." 
What kind of creep can't say he is HIV+ to another HIV+ person who just said it, in a sex negotiation?  Probably not worth sleeping with.
On the chance, this guy is HIV-,  then YOU probably shouldn't give your HIV+ butt to him, unprotected, no matter WHAT responsibility he "accepts". 
And if, by the same chance again (he is HIV-), the game might stop (oh, crap, Im in over my head) and you'll be rejected and you will move on to a better fit.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2013, 03:10:14 PM »
As for the hep c post of yours:

Of course it would be nice to know every risk in life before it happens. I had 2 times food poisoning in myanmar the last 2 weeks which caused high fever and diarrhea and whatnot and made me feel terrible for 2 days each. I would have wanted the restaurants to tell me beforehand that their food might not be so clean for a foreigner and i might wanna skip the risk. But they didnt.

Ok, i know, hep c is not the same. But the guy who gave me hiv didnt ask me either. Some things just happen if u do things like life a live outside safety bounderies and sometimes even inside them (you could get cancer easily).

So yes, life would be easier if everyone who had any kind of disease or would pose any risk to anyone would not even go outside the street or tell you before posing a risk. But life doesnt always work that way and it also would be much less exciting .... (Dont wanna sound sarcastic now but its actually true if u think about it)

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2013, 03:20:38 PM »
You have a very different sense of right and wrong, and of rationality and morals.
Is it just you? Your family taught this? Is this cultural difference?
I'm thinking it just you!

Boiled down, you believe - two wrongs make a right. Or two wrongs isn't worth thinking about...

The person who transmitted HIV to you, maybe didn't know. Or was high and wasn't thinking about you...  Or maybe was some sort of evil HIV spreader, thought I highly doubt that.

The restaurant, in all likelihood, didn't hope you to get sick....  But if its a really dirty restaurant and staffed by cynical greedy owners who just want money and don't care. Than so the fuck what? 

Let's see.  Someone gave me HIV.  So I'm free to pass it on. Because that's what lots of people do.

Someone stole my computer. So I can steel someone else's....

etc etc etc
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2013, 03:30:21 PM »
Haha we seem to be cross posting each other :)))

Again, mecch ... It seems we have a different opinion about the level of responsibility people should take over other people. Lets categorize:

Nr1: no responsibility for myself or others
Nr2: only responsibility for myself
Nr3: responsibility for myself, helping others to take responsibility for themselves
Nr4: responsibility for myself, taking over responsibility for others as well

You see, to be cat4, i am more leaning towards nr3.

I am willing to help people take their responsibility by giving them information in a way that suits the current level (ok that point is arguable but bear with me). Lets say i tell someone i am hiv+ and he says he is hiv- but still wants to fuck me bare bec the risk as a top is lower. I will ask him if he is sure but if he is then why should i stop him? In the end it is his life, his responsibility and if he didnt inform himself or doesnt care, why should i care for him? Is that realy heartless or egoistic? I domt think so. I still think people should in general be responsible for their own actions. (Unless he/she is a child, totally uneducated etc)

As for the playful conversation imo i still stayed in cat3 imo bec i warned him about the risk that i might be pos. he then stated that he knows the risks and he is an educated adult. So why should i say something which he already included in his statement about knowng the risks?

But yeah, i could have stated it clearly. It would have destroyed the playfulness though. Maybe next time i would say so.

In any way, i am playing with thethought of putting the words POZ, SICK, POISONOUS, HAZARD, DEATH, ETC on my profile anyway so maybe this whole discussion will soonbe obsolete hahaha (now was i serious or not?) haha

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2013, 03:40:47 PM »
I think the people you should read about furher are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himler

Just by chance I was watching a doc about Himmler on the way home from work.  The question was asked.... by what morality did these major actors act, committing mass murder, for example.  The german historian interviewed, explained that when the mass murders began, it was against both German and International law.  Neither Himmler nor Hitler ever put forward a legal justification for murder. Nor did they ever write down, you have permission to do this.... because of this.....(morality, law, etc.).

The direct translation from Himmler is that he was searching for a solution to a problem.  He said since he was "entitled" to kill military age male jews (already a crappy legal or moral defence) he decided he was also "entitled" to murder their families and children... Everyone...

The historians were fascinated by this verb and noun, "entitled" and "entitlement"...

Notice the verb is already in the passive.. (was entitled by whom!!!!????)

You may also be pondering a sort of "unwritten contract" here.  Ironically, I think you were on slightly firmer ground, about going to a sex club and barebacking.  (the unwritten contract - currupt but ok maybe exists - is that everyone in a sex club must protect themselves in such situations....   

But here you are, on Gay Romeo, engaging in a human conversation about an important topic, but you are hedging...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 03:46:16 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2013, 03:45:23 PM »
No i dont think 2 wrongs make a right and i wouldnt steal someone else computer if someone would steal mine (i would though think about stealing something from the. Guy who stole my computer haha)

I dont really care who gave me hiv although i have an idea who he may have been as he was acting quite strangely in my memory. I asked him to pull out before he came and just shortly before he came he said he wants to shoot inside and did so before i could react. Then he quickly got dressed and ran out. Back then i was a bit worried and a few weeks later i got the flu. So thinking back, i dont know what category he was but probably not the nicest. But of course i dont have any proof that he was the one cause i had sex with others as well (although all the others were nice and pulled out)

Anyway thats not the point ...

The point is .. I believe that many things in life are not safe by definition. Our society sets rules to make it safer but if u cannot live by those rules you take risks. And everyone takes their own risks. I can help people understand the risks but i dont think taking over responsibility for someone else is necessarily my job. If he doesnt fuck me because i didnt wanna fuck with an hiv neg guy out of the risk for him he might go on and fuck a stranger in a sauna. I dont think thats wrong morals, i think thats real life morals.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2013, 03:51:11 PM »
You are saying, your pleasure is more important, than going that little extra mile from step 3, to step 4.  (Though I don't think step 3 accurately describes your sexual M.O.)
Talking to a human, about sex and risk, to start with. And the risk for you is, on the off chance, someone is NOT ok with your point blank statement, "I'm HIV+ and not on meds, to boot."  And the person will reject you.  That's the risk you are trying to avoid, with this cagey category 3. 

You know, I think you will find ENDLESS opportunities for such half-assed conversations on Gay Romeo, and you will find a bottomless supply (no pun intended) of tops willing to top you bareback with odd or no or unclear communication about who is risking what.  So, I guess at this point, you can just go with that and enjoy it.

As long as you are asking questions and presenting situations, that are interesting, in this forum, I'll still reply with a more enlightened and "pushy" viewpoint.
 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2013, 03:58:11 PM »
Mecch:

Sometimes i dont fully understand you i have to admit. I didnt. Really get your comparison between me and the nazis for instance :) also i am thinking you try to misunderstand me with the categories. I merely tried to say that while (i think) you wouldnt fuck with an hiv neg guy in my situation, i would do so after i had (clearly) told him i was poz and he still wants to. I wasnt talking about my playful gayromeo chat.

Anyway it is 3am here in bangkok now and i am too tired and maybe i also wrote stuff without thinking enough about it. I will retire for the night and think more about it.

I wish there was a cure .... :(

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2013, 04:10:07 PM »
As for maximising your pleasure in life, and maximising the number of tops who will bareback you, think again about broadcasting your HIV+ status on Facebook.  But writing down on the Internet in a conversation "I might be HIV+". That is a lie. You ARE hiv+, and your butt is a route of transmission.   Don't do that in a litigious or vengeful country. Certainly don't do it in a country with non-disclosure laws. A criminal lawsuit and possible prison sentence will crimp some of the pleasure of living. On the other hand, if you became a bottom prison bitch, you'd probably get a good selection of tops who will bareback.  "ha ha"
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline marcmoral16

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2013, 04:13:25 PM »
As for maximising your pleasure in life, and maximising the number of tops who will bareback you, think again about broadcasting your HIV+ status on Facebook.  But writing down on the Internet in a conversation "I might be HIV+". That is a lie. You ARE hiv+, and your butt is a route of transmission.   Don't do that in a litigious or vengeful country. Certainly don't do it in a country with non-disclosure laws. A criminal lawsuit and possible prison sentence will crimp some of the pleasure of living. On the other hand, if you became a bottom prison bitch, you'd probably get a good selection of tops who will bareback.  "ha ha"

Couldn't have said it any better myself....
Tested Positive Jan 16 2013
CD4 119 6% VL 23980
Started Complera Feb 2013
March CD4 199 9% VL 1000
May CD4 255 12% VL 334
June CD4 284 15% VL 172
Switched to Stribild middle June 2013
July CD4 325 22% VL 51
October CD4 341 23% VL UD!!
Jan 2014 CD4 343 20% VL <20
July 2014 CD4 450 26% VL <20

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2013, 05:06:52 PM »
Honey I'm not saying you're a crazy Nazi.
I really was watching that doc on the way home tonight.
http://natgeotv.com/asia/nazi-underworld/about

Don't forget Im a teacher so Im very pedantic about these things.
When I read your posts way back when, in the beginning, I kind of saw this as the primary challenge for you..  What am I "entitled" to, and what not...  You seem to operate on the pleasure principal and incompletely thought out moral philosophy.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Joe K

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2013, 06:08:46 PM »
Setting aside all the issues your post raises, I am saddened by your total lack of any sense of self worth.  You seek only sexual pleasure, with little regard for the safety of anyone, including yourself and you think disclosing your status is the hardest thing to do, because it will limit your selection of sexual partners.

You don't have a clue at what it means to be poz, but you will find out and some of the costs will be very dear.  You can either work to adjust to being poz, including the moral/ethical implications, or you can just wait for fate to run you over.

The choice is yours.

Joe

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2013, 06:58:50 PM »
Setting aside all the issues your post raises, I am saddened by your total lack of any sense of self worth.  You seek only sexual pleasure, with little regard for the safety of anyone, including yourself and you think disclosing your status is the hardest thing to do, because it will limit your selection of sexual partners.

You don't have a clue at what it means to be poz, but you will find out and some of the costs will be very dear.  You can either work to adjust to being poz, including the moral/ethical implications, or you can just wait for fate to run you over.

The choice is yours.

Joe

Quoted because it's a post so nice, one should post it twice.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2013, 01:39:23 AM »
Mecch:

Sometimes i don't fully understand you i have to admit.

I fully understand Mecch, but miserably fail to understand you.

Nevertheless I'll keep reading out of sheer curiosity.

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2013, 01:52:17 AM »
Seriously guys i dont get it. You tell me i dont have any sense of self worth, i dont have any morals, i am only driven by pleasure, i care little for others, what else was there ... Ah yeah, i dont care for myself either.

Do you really think a guy like that would have posted in this forum in the first place and keep discussing his conflicts ? Do you think he would have even gone to make a test every few months?

Homestly i am amazed how judgmental some of the posts were. We (people with hiv) want society to not judge us but it doesnt seem to be so easy to not judge someone who writes about his desires and problems. After reading the latest posts my first reaction was to just ignore and leave this forum.

For once and for all: i do care about the wellbeing of myself and others around me. Believe it or not. Thats why i am struggling to find a way to balance the moral side with my pleasure seeking side. Am i the only one facing this challenge? I doubt it.

Maybe some of you have been living with hiv for too long and have adapted to it in a time where it was still deadly and having sex was, in comparison a minor issue. But getting infected today doesnt feel to me like "fate will run me over". And i also dont feel like i have to completely change my life now just because i have a chronic disease as my doctor calls it.

What i am trying to find here is help integrating this chronic disease into my life with as little drama as possible. I dont need posts calling me names just because i am honestly posting about my desires and conflicts wiyh this transition.

So to make it clear to anyone:

I wont stop trying to have bareback sex because thats what gives me pleasure (uuu the selfish bitch again) and yes, part of me is a pleasure seeker. How bad of me !

I knew all along, even before you said i dont have any morals, that i still have to find a way to protect my partners UP TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.

I dont and wont feel the need to protect everyone who doesnt want to be protected! What do i mean by that? As an example: If someone goes to a sauna  darkroom etc and fucks a stranger without condom do i have to protect him? Or isnt it his own fault? Seriously, guys?

Responsibility has to come from both sides. If someone asks me or even shows me he has doubts about barebacking ... Of course i will refrain from doing so or tell him. And yes i might even post my status on my profiles to leave no doubtabout my status. (Although then you might argue what about the guys who dont read profile texts or dont speak the language good enough etc)

Again: I am trying to find a way to integrate hiv into my life as dramafree and easily as possible. I am not going to change my whole life, character etc about it. First of all i dont think thats necessary because i do have a good set of morals to start with (believe it or not) and second its a chronic disease now, not a death sentence anymore.

Ok, now please maybe we can go on on a less judgmental path, thank you very much.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2013, 06:13:43 AM »
Seriously guys i dont get it. You tell me i dont have any sense of self worth, i dont have any morals, i am only driven by pleasure, i care little for others, what else was there ... Ah yeah, i dont care for myself either.


Well I for one don't see this as "all or nothing". You are summing up some of the more stern opinions, and making them even more stark. Therefore less realistic and less possible as potential guides.

For my part, I just think your philosophy is incompletely thought out. I see you are putting a lot of thought into this but you are for the moment caught in some circular logic, mostly based on your utter commitment to your own right to have pleasure as you want it...  You're going part of the way to seeing sex and communication about sex, as a 2-way exchange.  But unwilling to go all the way there.

Everyone has agreed there is plenty of opportunity for anyone HIV+ to go out there and do what he/she wants with no communication, or even lies, because there are plenty of participants.  You're wading into the moral questions so I think you should keep struggling with these issues. 

You do realise there are ways to increase the number of possible sex partners, and decrease the risk, but some of these routes you categorically refuse.   

So the thread is going in circles.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Joe K

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2013, 01:23:41 PM »
Again: I am trying to find a way to integrate hiv into my life as dramafree and easily as possible. I am not going to change my whole life, character etc about it. First of all i dont think thats necessary because i do have a good set of morals to start with (believe it or not) and second its a chronic disease now, not a death sentence anymore.

Hey Bear,

To start, I am not judging you, rather I am expressing my concern for your health and well-being.  You seem to be ignoring the real possibility of your being infected with a nasty STD that could compromise your health and you appear to simply not care.  That is one of my concerns, based on how you describe you want to live your life.

You also seem to think that becoming poz is no big deal and you refuse to consider that your life may change in ways that even you have not anticipated.  You say you don't want to be responsible for the health of others, but are you aware of any and all HIV transmission laws where you live?  The law may impose on you a duty to disclose your status, no matter the circumstances and claiming that you don't want to always disclose, will not protect you from the law.

This is why I said that you seem unwilling to just take it slow and begin to process the changes in your life, because you are now poz.  I know from experience that unexpected events will happen to you and if you don't take some time, to develop your own "moral compass" if you will, you may find yourself in serious trouble.  It does not mean you can't live your life, as you see fit, but it does require that you understand that not everyone will agree with some of the choices you make and some of those choices may come with consequences that you are unable to avoid.

Nobody here is the morality police, we are just trying to open your eyes to the fact that adjusting to living with HIV is not for the faint of heart and no matter what you may feel, adjusting to being poz is a BIG DEAL.  That's why folks are exploring ideas with you, to help you see the magnitude of the changes you may face.

We have no idea on how your journey with HIV will be, we only know what our experience has taught us.

You sound like a rational man, who is coming to grips with being poz and I salute your desire to discuss these issues in detail.  The only advice I have is to try and keep your options open and explore the reality of the world in which you live.  There are so many facets to being poz and some outside influences, such as transmission laws, can adversely effect what options you may have.

My only goal is to help you understand that there is nothing simple about adjusting to being poz, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will find your way to navigate your life, in a way that is within your own "moral compass."

Joe

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2013, 03:58:31 AM »
Mecch, joe:

I am having good and bad, weak and strong days and i honestly am struggling with this, especially the moral part of disclosing. So sorry if that sounds like going in circles. But reality for me seems different than what i read in this forum. At least in asia, most notably bangkok reality looks like this:

According to a study i read 40% of gay males in bangkok are hiv+. Not only "low income" but also middle class gay men with higher education. So apparently there should be a big market for me. But, saddly ... Since i created new profiles on gayromeo and grindr where i explicitly mention i am poz, no one writes to me anymore. The few who do are negative or think they are and have no idea what poz means or didnt read the profile. If i tell someone most people dont believe me, if i insist i am hiv+, they stop contact.

On the other hand, most people here fuck bare. They all pretend everyone is healthy. Most people dont even ask me if i am safe or not, they just wanna stick their dick in bare. Many look for high fun (using ice or other drugs)

So to be honest i feel like i am the only one trying to be moral and honest here and its frustrating. Since most people fuck bare and pretend everyone is healthy its a no win situation. If i disclose i cant participate anymore although i know the guy would happily fuck any stranger bare and maybe even is hiv+ himself.

As i have this conflict between doing what you guys (and my conscience) tell me is right and what i see in reality. Homestly, in europe a similar thing is going on although much less prominent and there at least people usually ask about the status before fucking bare.

As for the laws you guys keep mentioning ... Is it possible that this is a big issue in the us but less so in europe and especially asia? And then from what i heard it seems to be more a heterosexual issue. I havent heard much about gay men getting sued a lot by exboyfriends or lovers over this issue in europe. So while i am sure there are laws, i wouldnt call this an immediate threat to my future. Maybe i am ignorant about this though, i havent given this much thought.

And then there is this threat about STDs you mentioned. Well i googled and it seems like hep c is actually kinda hard to transmit sexually. But yeah of course it would be an issue. All the other stds are treatable afaik.

What other threats are gonna await me ? Probably i will die alone cause i see my chances of ever getting a boyfriend as very very low (yes u can blame this on my character if u want). They were so low before, now they seem toct even less.

Other than the above (and maybe some job issued?) i am not sure what the really big deal is these days. Maybe meds side effects ...

So far for me, the only big issue i have is a moral one with disclosing to my partners. Doesnt seem to work for me here. :(


Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2013, 05:40:23 AM »
I'm sure how you describe the situation is perceptive enough. 

I would say if you are looking to have a relationship, love, a boyfriend, you'll need to be honest about the HIV. 

As to the "hows" and processes of getting the sex you want, I've agreed with you that you will find plenty of participants for no questions asked, risky sex.

You realise that both you and your partners are at risk for various STDS.  Any negative partner you might have, will be at risk of a transmission of HIV from you. Is your conscience OK with that, or not?  You keep referring to what everyone does, but that doesn't answer the question. You can join the ranks of the deluded, the nihilistic, and/or the hedonistic. Yep, its your choice.

As I said in previous posts, I am a bit off the center in this forum as to 100% disclosure to every sex partner.  Because I do agree with you there are situations in which one assumes there is an "unwritten agreement".  But thats a flimsy agreement, I admit. For example, going to a sex club KNOWN to be for bare fucks, and then taking on all comers...  --  so to speak  ::)  And I've told you of my experiment doing that.  A Hep C infection.  Fortunately, I am one of the few people who are able to cure that oneself.  Most are not so lucky.  I also got an STD. 

Since you are willing to conceded that there are HIV- people participating in this "no questions asked" risk taking, you have to concede that your butt could thus transmit HIV to someone.

My first recommendation in this thread, is that you go home and get yourself treated for HIV.  When you are undetectable, you are far less likely to be a vector of HIV transmission. That is a fact.

Or, you could also consider getting off this merry-go-round of sex and defining some other goals in life - a job?, a career?, financial security, good health, getting a companion, developing your other interests (besides sex) etc etc.

As for Hep C - I am telling you - the risk is out there from straightforward bareback sex between men....  This is news that has not penetrated (so to speak) the HIV+ gay community.  But my ID specialist confirms....

But, it is said next year, there will be an Hep C cure on the market.  So I guess if bareback sex is the ultimate priority in life, you don't have to worry too much...

Within a year or two, I predict, and I am no expert, a pretty large wave of antibiotic resistant STDs.  Sounds like Bangkok is a likely candidate for one of these outbreaks. I suppose you can still get a couple hundred loads in you before then.


As for HIV criminalisation and what you are risking... You have been given the websites to start discovering the local laws....  So you should know by now.  Don't rely soley on your "impression of the scene"...  You could also just contact a local HIV/AIDS service organisation and ask about HIV criminalisation where you are fucking. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 05:45:56 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2013, 06:40:37 AM »
Hi!

I have just tested positive on my backpacking trip around the world. A few months ago it was still negative. I talked with my doctor at home (europe) and he said with a cd4 count of 500 i can continue like planned (a few more months) and shouldnt be very worried about my immediate health.


Maybe one way out of the turmoil is to concentrate on something else besides sex. You said this was a "backpacking trip around the world" so isn't there anything else that will give you some energy and good feelings, some enjoyment, BESIDES this hunt for unprotected sex? 

It seems to boil down to - if I get raw dick in my butt, I'm Ok... til the next day.... 

I guess Im an old coot now. In my "backpacking around the world" days I took language classes, went to museums and concerts and checked out all sorts of different "scenes" in the places I went, did sports, explored nature, enjoyed different drugs, etc, etc., all feeding different interests. 

Some sexual excitement - sure.  Somehow I managed to have mini-love affairs... They were GREAT.  Very satisfying.   Not saying there's anything wrong with anonymous hook ups, can be great too, i thoroughly enjoyed them of course too.  But... as Peggy Lee sings, Is that all there is??

You are very fortunate to have the freedom and opportunity. So all this free time, money to spare.  Are you wasting your days on a hunt for sex that has now become unsatisfying sex??   Or, maybe that's just my inaccurate perception... 

We all understood that you said you've had sexual success and sexual validation in Asia.  Hey, that's important.  But HIV has thrown a wrench into that, no matter how much you want to deny it, to continue getting that validation...  Now, what will the sexual exchange be based on: lies, delusions, risks.....?? If so, not very validating, in the end. 



« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 07:04:10 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2013, 06:53:29 AM »
Mecch:

I wanna do the right thing but yeah i also a hedonistic bitch ... Not easy to be both at the same time. Yesterday i had bb sex without disclosing. It was with a guy who told me he was high and already fucked 4 times since last night and was still horny and couldnt sleep (bec of the drug). I asked him if he wasnt scared about hiv or any other std and he said "not much". And then i was thinking if he doesnt fuck me, he will fuck someone else. Why should i be the moral guy who passes on the chance to get fucked by a hot guy (and he was hot) when he clearly doesnt care?

Afterwards i did feel a bit guilty though. I know people here (and elsewhere) will judge me again.

I am still saying to myself that even without meds the risk for the top is very low but maybe thats just rationalisation like i did before with the "pulling out" as prevention.

I will get treatment next year, just cant go home now, i already have travel plans for the next months that would be too expensive to cancel.

The bigger question of why i have chosen sex as a hobby (like one of my friends calls it) and why i dont do something better with my life is unclear to me. Maybe i am indeed just another hedonistic egoistic unnecessary bitch on this earth ...

Of course i did more than just have sex on my trips around the world. I did a lot of trips, saw lots of amazing things and met a few nice people i am friends with now (although sex was the motivation to meet them)

For some reason it is a lot easier for me to meet people via sex than via any other way. Sex is like a door opener for friendship for me, cant really explain it. And travelling alone can be pretty lonely if you are not a partyboy and dont get to know people easily.

Also, as i mentioned already, i really enjoyed the interest i suddenly got from sometimes very beautiful guys. Maybe i got addicted to this sexual attention, people suddenly calling me handsome, beautiful, sexy and wanting to fuck me. That hardly ever happened to me in europe where everyone goes for the young, trained boy next door.

I know in the long run i have to do something else with my life, i do feel the emptyness if i am not busy fucking around. I just dont know what i wanna do with my life really ....

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2013, 07:07:36 AM »

 Why should i be the moral guy who passes on the chance to get fucked by a hot guy (and he was hot) when he clearly doesnt care?

Afterwards i did feel a bit guilty though.

One question at a time.  You answered this one.  Because it doesn't feel right to you and therefore the hottest guy in the world screwing you isn't adding to your feeling of contentment and self worth... Nor your respect for your own conscience.
It really is that simple.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2013, 07:08:58 AM »
How old are you?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #91 on: October 10, 2013, 07:12:27 AM »
44 :)

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #92 on: October 10, 2013, 07:13:23 AM »

1)  I am still saying to myself that even without meds the risk for the top is very low but maybe thats just rationalisation like i did before with the "pulling out" as prevention.

2) I will get treatment next year, just cant go home now, i already have travel plans for the next months that would be too expensive to cancel.


1) Your butt is a vector for HIV transmission. Don't delude yourself.

2) This is deeply immoral.  Continuing to be a public health risk, because you want to avoid a economic cost to yourself, and an annoying change in plans.  YOU COULD EASILY COMPROMISE and simply ask the top to use condoms, you realise... And still continue your "backpacking trip" without presenting a public health risk.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2013, 07:19:19 AM »
44 :)

Well this obliterates somewhat my advice on the existential questions, though not totally. 

In fact you are doing sexual tourism and at your age and with your resources, and knowledge base, its with a bit of colonialist immorality. As your pleasure seems to be more important than protecting people you admit are, in some cases, deluded and/or ignorant about HIV and transmission. 

Is meth involved on your side, as well??  If so, this may very well be a pretty basic self-esteem challenge. Probably won't be solved through sexual tourism, in fact may get worse...

I will PM you tomorrow, when I have more time, some HORRID stories of some mature gay guys who continued to seek validation through sex and particularly sex with men they considered handsome, hot, "valuable".   You can imagine the costs and complicated relationships and they only got higher and more complicated and deadly as the years accumulated.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2013, 07:27:55 AM »
I am doing the right thing sometimes u know.

Had sex with 2 guys yesterday, i only wrote about the high fun guy who fucked me bb.
I didnt mention the second guy who said to me he doesnt have a condom and if i am ok with bare sex. I had to think a few min but then i put a condom in his hand and said better be safe.

It all depends on how i perceive my partner to be. The first guy appeared to me like he was risking it without caring and then i thought why should i be moral and nice and miss my fun and he gets hiv from the next guy or is positive already anyway.  Can you understand that chain of thoughts?

The second guy appeared like he was thinking about condoms or wasnt sur. he would still have risked it but i felt much more responsible to protect him than the first guy so i didnt have any fun (didnt enjoy the fuck) but i was glad afterwards that i protected him.

Its not always soooo easy. Feeling guilty i did with the first guy too but i also thought that he was kinda asking for it. With the second guy i would have really felt guilty a lot.

As for your last post: never used any kind of drugs. No meth, ice or even poppers. Hate that stuff.

And i dont see myself as a sex tourist. A sex tourist exploits people (mostly kids) for little money and his own pleasure. I never ever had sex for money or sex with minors anywhere! Also up until my hiv test a few weeks ago i didnt fee like i am harming anyone by having sex with them. On the contrary i had lots of emotionally and sexually satisfying sex with guys who wanted to have sex with me. I actually have the habit of not writing anyone for sex. The guys were messaging me instead and were sometimes very persistent in meeting me. So no, i definitely dont feel like being a sextourist AT ALL.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2013, 07:39:05 AM »
Well, in my definition a sexual tourist is one thing, and a pedophile a completely different thing.

I know a fair amount of middle-aged guys who go to asia because they have sexual success there. It's called sexual tourism, in my book, whether its with prostitutes or not...

_____

On the other info, related above, first you do seem to be on a sexual jag. And it sounds like hard work, trying to assume and perceive so much about the partners...

Doesn't sound like a heavenly journey of sexual fulfilment, at least not to me.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2013, 07:45:48 AM »
Well if you call anyone who travels and has sex on his travels a sex tourist then most gay guys are. And then thats ok with me. I just think a sex tourist in a sense like most people  will understand it is different.

Offline curious1here

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2013, 10:24:02 AM »
Can someone please tell me the relevance of this thread in  ' I just tested Poz'. For a lot of people who are still coming to terms with their diagnosis, this thread is bordering on very offensive. Many people on here picked up H.I.V  from people who didn't disclose their status.

To btmbear, there  are forums out there where people stealth poz people because the don't use condoms and don't disclose their status, their opinion is " well it's their fault" because it's feel better and they get off at it, I really don't think this is the place for it.

Online Joe K

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2013, 10:49:25 AM »
Can someone please tell me the relevance of this thread in  ' I just tested Poz'. For a lot of people who are still coming to terms with their diagnosis, this thread is bordering on very offensive. Many people on here picked up H.I.V  from people who didn't disclose their status.

To btmbear, there  are forums out there where people stealth poz people because the don't use condoms and don't disclose their status, their opinion is " well it's their fault" because it's feel better and they get off at it, I really don't think this is the place for it.

Hey Curious,

The relevance of this thread is that many newly poz folks are faced with these issues, regarding disclosure and these are necessary discussions.  The OP is being honest in expressing his feelings and though you may not agree with them, it is part of HIS process of adjusting to his new status.  It also provides members the opportunity to explore their own feelings about the subject, as well as it may convince some folks to change the way they disclose their status to others.

With few exceptions, we do not censor content on this site, because no matter what the subject matter, there is always something to be learned from every thread.

Joe

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2013, 11:02:24 AM »
I approve this message ^^^ .

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2013, 11:45:00 AM »
Many people on here picked up H.I.V  from people who didn't disclose their status.


Thats one of the topics being discussed...  Right?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2013, 11:59:02 AM »
Hi

I have read something about this stealthpozzing or how its called .. I dont want to judge anyone even people who do that but i dont think (or hope) its really a widespread phenomenon. I would never do that.  I also wont lie if someone asks me directly or indirectly and i have said the truth directly and numerous times lately.

The only situation where my morals are not as firm is with guys who seem very careless to me anyway. Then i feel like its a waste to miss the fun because either they are positive anyway or dont care. I know this may be another of my easy way outs and is not what a good person should be doing but i still have a hard time convincing myself that its not also their fault.

Besides, all of the guys i am still in contact with and who i fucked with as a bottom while already positive but before i had my test seem to be negative in their tests. Its still too early to tell for some of them because of the window period but at least so far i havent heard of a positive test amongst them. So even though i probably had a high viral load shortly after my infection it seems like the tops do not get it so easily from me ....

Offline mecch

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2013, 12:12:39 PM »
Besides, all of the guys i am still in contact with and who i fucked with as a bottom while already positive but before i had my test seem to be negative in their tests. Its still too early to tell for some of them because of the window period but at least so far i havent heard of a positive test amongst them. So even though i probably had a high viral load shortly after my infection it seems like the tops do not get it so easily from me ....

All the guys in the sex clubs? All the annonymous 1-off internet hook ups?  Guess you don't have contact with them....

The underlined statement is just...  so easy for you. 

You take half-assed evidenced and half-assed observation and "seems this" or "seems that",  and come up with total, cheery, and bizarre, conclusions...

 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2013, 12:18:26 PM »
I didnt go to any sexclubs in the last few months. I had a few one night stands via online dating, agreed. I said amongst the guys i am still in contact with all who got tested had a negative result. Some of them have to go again in a month or so. I am just very happy i didnt infect any of them it seems. And i allowed myself to jump to that unscientific conclusion that my ass is not that dangerous. Yeah i know, how bad of me. But i did read somewhere that the chance of getting hiv from a bottom is somewhere less than 1%, no? I dont wanna use this as an excuse but ... Or maybe i would like to use that as an excuse, yeah that would be more honest of me :)

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #104 on: October 10, 2013, 02:40:19 PM »
I didnt go to any sexclubs in the last few months. I had a few one night stands via online dating, agreed. I said

 amongst the guys i am still in contact with all who got tested had a negative result. Some of them have to go again in a month or so.


I am just very happy i didn't infect any of them it seems. And i allowed myself to jump to that unscientific conclusion that my ass is not that dangerous. Yeah i know, how bad of me. But i did read somewhere that the chance of getting hiv from a bottom is somewhere less than 1%, no? I dont wanna use this as an excuse but ... Or maybe i would like to use that as an excuse, yeah that would be more honest of me :)

Soooooooo...you guys HAVE discussed safesex = the guys told you that they tested negative, and some had to get retested !!  and what about YOU  ??   They MUST have wanted to know about YOUR status. The mere fact that they brought it up, implies that they were contemplating the possible risks of going bare !!! 
What did YOU tell / answer to them ??  Obviously not the truth, as you are reluctant to disclose.

You're funny...almost too funny to be true

 ;D

Offline Bowie-esq

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2013, 02:48:36 PM »
Man, just take some responsibility and use a damn condom.

(There, I've said it after weeks of reading your excuses and whining)

 :-X
Infected: +\-01/2010

Tested positive 08/2010
28/07/11 CD4 420 9% v.l. 20500
16/10/11 CD4 320 10% v.l. 185000
10/11/11 begin Truvada/Viramune
29/12/11 CD4 410 13% v.l. 115
14/4/12 v.l. undetectable
05/7/12 CD4 520 19% v.l. UD
21/08/13 CD4 470 20% v.l. UD
19/12/13 CD4 430 23% v.l. UD

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2013, 02:58:15 PM »
It needs to be pointed out when you start assigning % to responsibility .

I see people post all the time about it being a 50 / 50 thing and I find that self serving  .
You have a 100 % responsibility that your virus ends with you and others should accept 100 % responsibility for remaniing HIV negative .

Do not fool yourself and think for one moment that someone who isn't keeping up their !00 % is a loop hole to exploit to diminish your responsibility .

The bottom line is HIV changes things and no one is the exception to that rule .

Online Joe K

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2013, 03:28:12 PM »
Hey Bear,

The reality here is that only you can prevent you infecting another human being.  That's the part you just refuse to face.  You do not get a pass for any reason, when you are bare-backing with others.  If you used condoms, you could avoid disclosure in certain circumstances, but you refuse to use them and since you will not, your duty to disclose is absolute.

If you are looking for any validation of your decision to not disclose, you have come to the wrong site.

What you are doing is morally reprehensible and no matter what you tell yourself, that reality will never change.

Joe

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2013, 11:02:31 PM »
Grasshopper:

U misunderstood. I was talking about the guys i had sex with before i took my last test but was infected already. Yes we talked about hiv status but both said we think we are ok but not 100% sure, at that time that was the truth. I told those guys about my hiv status after i did the test.

Bowie:

I wish it was that easy for me. I would have used a condom all the time if it was. If i use a condom its a waste of time for me. Its like eating paper instead of food. You would stop eating if every food tasted like paper, thats how getting fucked with condom feels to me. So then i prefer to not have sex anymore.


Jeff, joe:

Yeah i hear you and of course in absolute terms you are right. But life is always about balancing risk and fun. Mind you i am talking about what most people do in real life. Yes its a morally grey loophole but thats what people do. I have a hard time going on this absolute path if all around me people take risks and enjoy life. Feels like being a monk in a sexclub so to speak.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2013, 11:23:10 PM »
Grasshopper:

U misunderstood. I was talking about the guys i had sex with before i took my last test but was infected already. Yes we talked about hiv status but both said we think we are ok but not 100% sure, at that time that was the truth. I told those guys about my hiv status after i did the test.

Bowie:

I wish it was that easy for me. I would have used a condom all the time if it was. If i use a condom its a waste of time for me. Its like eating paper instead of food. You would stop eating if every food tasted like paper, thats how getting fucked with condom feels to me. So then i prefer to not have sex anymore.


Jeff, joe:

Yeah i hear you and of course in absolute terms you are right. But life is always about balancing risk and fun. Mind you i am talking about what most people do in real life. Yes its a morally grey loophole but thats what people do. I have a hard time going on this absolute path if all around me people take risks and enjoy life. Feels like being a monk in a sexclub so to speak.


See, that's where you lose me. I have been infected for over 20 years. Yet I have enjoyed a fairly steady robust sex life. Granted, thee have been dry spells - when I have been in a relationship where we were sexually incompatible. But single JK? Good Lord, the stories.

And to date, no one carries my brand of virus except myself.

Your assessment of your future is bleak, and unnecessarily so.

I remember the 90s, when "all those around me" were using a ton of meth, regardless of HIV status. I did not partake, and sometimes wondered what sort of magical, dance-all-week adventures I was missing. Then they all got HIV (if they didn't have it before) and all got sick, and all but a scant few died.

Following a herd mentality won't serve you well in the scope of HIV infection, treatment, and the adjustments you will need to make to live a happy life.

I get that you aren't there yet. But it's sad to think in such binary terms as "all the bare sex, all the time" and "monk in a sex club."

It's very limiting, and it's a limitation you impose solely upon yourself. It does NOT reflect reality, especially after yo cast a wider net than immature app-related discussions about DDF/UB2 and the like. These discussions, mind you, are rarely borne out once a meeting is arranged.

Might even be a great time to search yourself and find out why, exactly, so much of your self worth comes from anonymous sex.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Online Joe K

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2013, 11:39:51 PM »
Jeff, joe:

Yeah i hear you and of course in absolute terms you are right. But life is always about balancing risk and fun. Mind you i am talking about what most people do in real life. Yes its a morally grey loophole but thats what people do. I have a hard time going on this absolute path if all around me people take risks and enjoy life. Feels like being a monk in a sexclub so to speak.

Hey Bear,

Let's be clear here, the only one balancing risk and fun is you and you are also doing it for your sexual partners as well.  To think that you are unwilling to allow others to make an "informed consent" and casually toss that off as "I am talking about what most people do in real life."  No Bear, putting the health of others at risk, because you are too cowardly to admit your status, remains reprehensible.

It's not what most people do, it's what YOU do, so drop the charade.  Just admit that you don't care about others, because all that matters to you is how and what you feel.

Joe

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #111 on: October 11, 2013, 12:30:09 AM »
First of all i am very grateful to all of you to keep responding. I know i may be stressing some of peoples patience here with my answers so i am grateful for ever not judgmental answer i get from you and i am really trying to adapt my attitude a bit. I just also have this slut pig living inside my body that gives me lots of pleasure and is hard to ignore atm ...

Joe:

I have a hard time accepting that i am the only one balancing risk and fun and that i am also doing it for others. Also i have to disagree with your conclusion that all i care about is me. Here is why i think that:

What ever happened to the safe sex motto that each one is responsible to protect himself. Hiv is not a new phenomenon. Anyone who goes out there and fucks a stranger bare without even asking him about his status is risking getting infected even if he is ignoring that risk for whatever reason.

So why is it suddenly my responsibility ONLY to protect everyone who doesnt want to be protected? I really dont get that.

Is it really that egoistic of me to think that both parties have some responsibility in this?
I am more than willing to protect others if they want that. If anyone shows me he is insecure or unsure or even doesnt understand what poz means etc i will tell him. But why do i have to protect someone who tells me he is not really afraid, who fucks 4 strangers bare in a night without asking about their status ...

I dont get my head around the idea why protecting a guy who shows reckless behaviour is the moral imperative now and i am an egoistic bitch if i dont.

Jkinatl: i dont get some of the abbreviations u used sorry. And yeah i should explore why sex is so important for me atm. I guess i am addicted to it in a way. Feels like i am not complete if i didnt have sex on a given day. Oh well, therapy time i guess lol



Offline wolfter

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2013, 01:08:39 AM »
You can't wrap your head around the idea of protecting others?  Such a piece of.....work....  I wasted too much life reading through this entire thread and me thinks you're enjoying this entirely too much.

productivity breeds content

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #113 on: October 11, 2013, 03:29:19 AM »
A question for Bear:

Do you personally and intimately know anyone with full blown aids ?
Have you seen with your own eyes what kind of havoc  it causes ?

Seems like you don't,  since you constantly mention "manageable disease"

Perhaps if you see and smell for yourself, you then will realize why it's immoral to expose others (despite their reluctance to protect themselves).

"Taking" someone's health is of a totally different ballgame, than taking home an iPad found in an airport toilet  ;)

Offline mecch

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  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #114 on: October 11, 2013, 07:04:10 AM »
I dont know man.

The way you reason is flawed. I follow the flow but there's always a decision or consideration or comparison or analogy that leads the flow to the desired end - this is what I want.

You are rigid in the way you receive pleasure. This won't work well in most relationships....
For one offs, you cant find pleasure, even, with a gorgeous raging stud if he's got a condom on his dick.  So... rigidity...

You wont cut your trip to go get yourself on HAART, because that would be sad (wont get to continue your sexual gratification in the land o plenty) and waste some money.  So... rigidity and selfishness...

Plus, you have the chutzpah to claim so many are like you...  (poor moral reasoning).

Its time for you to be a big boy and go figure out some of the existential questions in your life.  What you need to do to survive, what you want to do to thrive..  You'll need to learn to be less selfish and less rigid, for most jobs, and for most fulfilling relationships. You are going to need to give to others, in terms of good service, a pleasant experience, trustworthy and honest exchanges, to thrive in a job, and when you do that, you get rewards...  People value you. Its a good feeling. And you get salary, advancement.   Same goes with relationships...

At the moment, you are stuck with a very limited avenue (the hershey highway) to get energy and esteem, pleasure, etc, given to you.  If anything, this thread has clarified that this avenue was poorly conceived (stop gap, emergency route) when built, recently has been blocked, and complicated reconstruction plans are breaking down in endless debates, bad feelings and bad faith, lies and name-calling, all around. There's no vision...

I would still implore you to go home, deal with the HIV, let the reality of it sink in, and meanwhile, start building some other avenues... 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 07:09:24 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online Jeff G

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #115 on: October 11, 2013, 09:43:36 AM »
I sometime feel like we are being had here by the OP ... I am very proud this thread has remained civil and we should all make the effort to keep it that way .

I am distressed by this thread , its disturbing . A sliver lining is the actions of the OP have been universally rejected by the members of this forum so when the time comes that a person stumbles across this forum we all will not be painted with the same brush .
The op makes the best case for criminalization for knowingly transmitting HIV and criminalization is something I abhor . 

If I were a censor I would have locked this thread , that's how repugnant I find this thread ... but I'm not going to do that .

Lets let this thread die , there is nothing more to be said and I am convinced the OP is at best enjoying the attention as a part of his pleasure seeking nature . I also think there is a good chance he is only here for his own amusement and may be making all of this up .

I'm asking that we do not dignify this thread a moment more by participating in it .   

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #116 on: October 11, 2013, 02:06:27 PM »
I sometime feel like we are being had here by the OP

 


You're funny...almost too funny to be true

 ;D

.......I am distressed by this thread , its disturbing .

...... that's how repugnant I find this thread.

...... I also think there is a good chance he is only here for his own amusement and may be making all of this up .

Agree

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2013, 10:26:00 PM »
I am not making this up, i wish i did. Would be much less disturbing for you guys i think.
Also i personally think some of you are ignoring what people do IN REAL LIFE out there in darkrooms, saunas, via online dating etc.

As is the case with many other moral issues there are those who live a moal life, those who talk morally and act imoral sometimes (the majority i would assume) and a few who try to speak the truth. Those are the first ones to get beaten for it.

I am not doing anything that thousands of others dont do the same way or even worse. Let me ask you a question .. If someone refuses to take a test although he fucks bare all the time, isnt he worse bec he infects others too but he never took a test so he can always claim he is clean. You guys know how many guys i met on my journey who never took a test (i asked) but wanted to fuck me bare?

Mecch: i agree with you i should find a better highway. Atm i feel too weak to change though. I dont know, i dont have much else atm :( i will keep thinking about it though and sometimes i am also sick of the way i live so maybe i will soon find the strenght to change. In the meantime i am doing the best i can. I have update my profiles telling everyone i am hiv+. But guess what, most dont even wanna read that. They ignore it and when i ask them if they are poz too they ask me .. No, WHY?

Ok, let this thread die if you want. I am sorry for offending some of you here.

Offline Btmbear

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Re: Sex and condom hate
« Reply #118 on: October 12, 2013, 02:14:47 AM »
Since its national coming out day today i posted about my hiv infection on my facebook. Lets see where this will lead me ...

Bye

 


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