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Author Topic: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.  (Read 1168 times)

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Offline mecch

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Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« on: August 14, 2013, 08:33:10 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/14/bradley-manning-psychologist_n_3755788.html

Is this a new facet to the story?  I hadn't caught it up to now.

I agree with the part of this statement I underlined:
Manning's supporters view his leaks as a courageous act of whistleblowing made in response to atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they are wary of giving an act of conscience a psychiatric explanation.

(Im not sure what he did was whistleblowing....)

But there is this interesting irony:
Manning's chain of command should have caught "red flags" about his mental state and possibly stripped Manning of his security clearance, the defense is suggesting, but didn't because of the military's anti-gay policies like "don't ask, don't tell."

His life much have ben traumatic on that base and its seems so sad that he's ended up in such hot water.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 08:35:29 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 08:54:33 PM »
His life much have ben traumatic on that base and its seems so sad that he's ended up in such hot water.

Oh please -- sad my ass.  He knew what he was doing.  I had a Secret clearance in the Army -- and I knew that I was NOT suppose to share any documents that said clearance gave me access.  He did what he did with intent and purpose.  This whole angle of his being gay and transgendered is a big red herring.  I was gay in the military and managed to get out without spilling our countries' secrets all over the place.

He belongs in jail.

M
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Offline mecch

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 09:49:03 PM »
I said I don't go in much for his whistleblowing identity.
And I also said I don't think his sexuality nor his transgender confusions, explain the actions.
So we agree on the basics?

I was just saying, in empathy, that all that going on in a war zone base, must have been traumatic.  Surely the hostility he felt directed to himself heightened his sensitivity to what he considered immorality, or fueled a preexisting fixation on this.

I was merely explaining that I have human empathy with him and his life might have been different if he had never served... 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 11:31:50 PM »
I think I agree with Barney Frank.  The video of our military personnel shooting and killing journalists that they thought were insurgents, was something we needed to know.  They acted like they were playing a video game, laughing and joking.  They knew kids were there, and said they shouldn't have brought kids with them.  They seemed to really enjoy what they were doing.

But, Frank said he didn't need to leak all the diplomatic cables, that he said put many at risk.  I think he should have just leaked the video, as I do think that is something we should know. 

Offline bocker3

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2013, 08:09:17 AM »
I think I agree with Barney Frank.  The video of our military personnel shooting and killing journalists that they thought were insurgents, was something we needed to know.  They acted like they were playing a video game, laughing and joking.  They knew kids were there, and said they shouldn't have brought kids with them.  They seemed to really enjoy what they were doing.

But, Frank said he didn't need to leak all the diplomatic cables, that he said put many at risk.  I think he should have just leaked the video, as I do think that is something we should know.

What??  the Military was shooting at people??  Alert the media......  Wait -- don't.  Because we don't need to know all the specific details -- it just makes these individual soldiers scapegoats for doing their job.

We carpet bombed Germany, Italy and other countries we were at war with.  We dropped atomic bombs - I hate to tell you -- a lot of non-combatants lost their lives then too.  It is a terrible aspect of war -- one that SHOULD (but unfortunately doesn't) give leaders pause before starting one.  I'm sure it was not easy to tell an insurgent from an "innocent" - the insurgents went out of their way to blend in to the population.  When it is kill or be killed, well, you do the math...............

If one hasn't been in the military, then one will never understand and probably be shocked at how soldiers behave (i.e. joking, etc) -- they don't do it because they enjoy shooting people, they do it as a defense mechanism because they are shooting people.

Nothing can piss me off more than "Monday morning quarterbacking" by folks who don't understand and are only in it to score political points (I like Barney Frank, but he's dead wrong).  When one looks back at things that went wrong it should be done with an eye to see how to minimize such situations in the future.  Yes, we'd all like wars to never happen again, but your more likely to have a unicorn fly out of your ass before that happens -- unfortunately, humans will always have wars.

M
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2013, 03:50:38 PM »
I do think Americans should see the effects of war.  It is basically sanitized for us.  We should see all the gruesome details, every night on the news.  So, I am glad this video came to light.  This war should have never happened.  I think an illegal war makes it even more necessary to see what we are doing there. 

I am posting the shooting video, where a host from The Young Turks discusses it.  He does offer nuance, that things were bad there, soldiers have to desensitize, and that we should be more upset with those who sent them there.  It is still disturbing how they laugh about running over a body. 

It seems they just invent that the targets are carrying weapons and RPG's.  An innocent bystander pulls up to help these victims.  They open fire on them.  I cannot imagine an insurgent group stopping to help.  I believe they are taught to flee, to prevent more casualties.  Their goal is to keep enough members alive.  They don't care enough to take someone to the hospital.  That should have been a huge red flag. 

There was a drone "pilot," who said he had to meet a quota.  He was expected to kill a certain number of people.  He said he was told to open fire on men walking a road in Afghanistan.  He said his gut told him they were just innocent people.  He said he could see them actually bleed out.  I guess the cameras on drones are much better.  I hope the helicopters now have cameras that can zoom in and distinguish a camera from an RPG.  The drones bring up another good topic.  They are responsible for many innocent deaths.  We are relying on these drones, since we didn't have the man power there.  We should know what our country is doing in our name.  Because, it is less than 1% of the population that is really affected by war here.  The rest, who don't have a family member serving, go about our lives and couldn't point out Iraq or Afghanistan on a map.  When we create more terrorists from killing innocent people, then we should know that. 

So, I am far more upset with those who supported the war.  The media that asked questions like, "How does your faith guide you, Mr. Bush?"  The soldiers were following orders. 

http://youtu.be/20LkYvEZOZs

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2013, 04:43:38 PM »


  Living by Fort Benning and having a majority of Army personnel as tenants at the complex I live in leads me to one conclusion--  America's got serious problems.  I've never lived near so many morons my entire life.

  Between the public disturbances and disorderly conduct the police force out here is kept quite busy.  I chuckle when I read "they fight for your freedom" while thinking "they piss on your doorstep".

  It's embarrassing.  But at least the bars and beer sales flourish.  Hopefully this is just a Fort Benning thing. ;)
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 09:01:33 PM »


There was a drone "pilot," who said he had to meet a quota.  He was expected to kill a certain number of people.  He said he was told to open fire on men walking a road in Afghanistan.  He said his gut told him they were just innocent people.  He said he could see them actually bleed out.  I guess the cameras on drones are much better.  I hope the helicopters now have cameras that can zoom in and distinguish a camera from an RPG.  The drones bring up another good topic.  They are responsible for many innocent deaths.  We are relying on these drones, since we didn't have the man power there.  We should know what our country is doing in our name.  Because, it is less than 1% of the population that is really affected by war here.  The rest, who don't have a family member serving, go about our lives and couldn't point out Iraq or Afghanistan on a map.  When we create more terrorists from killing innocent people, then we should know that. 

So, I am far more upset with those who supported the war.  The media that asked questions like, "How does your faith guide you, Mr. Bush?"  The soldiers were following orders.

This is such a crock of shit that I do not know where to begin.  Do you actually believe that our soldiers have kill quotas??  That is so fucked up - it would never happen.
To be clear, I did not support the Iraq war (Afghanistan is another matter - but we went beyond what was necessary).  However, I know what goes on in war and if you've not been in one, you can not even begin to wrap your head around that reality.
So, until you join up and experience it, feel free to lambast the politicians, but leave the soldiers, who are doing their jobs, alone. 
i have seen doctors "joke" about injuries and I have seen reporters joke about things like accidents - do you share outrage there?

M
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 12:03:41 AM »
First, Americans don't need to have been in the military to be critical of the actions of soldiers, when it calls for it.  By that logic, we couldn't be critical of what soldiers did at Abu Ghraib, or the killings and rapes.  Or, the soldiers, who pissed on the dead bodies of Afghans.  I think we can be critical of how the soldiers in the video conducted themselves.  My main point is that regardless of the nuances of why certain things happened, we need to know what our military is doing.  If the killings in the video were an honest mistake in war, I think it is good for Americans to see what our soldiers are being asked to do, because it has far reaching consequences. 

About the quota, I have searched for the interview of that.  I can't remember where I read or watched it.  So, I will have to withdrawal that, for now.  But, I did find one interview, where he said he was given his kill record, which he said amounted to a scorecard.  From what he says about the "scorecard," I would have to assume drone pilots were rewarded for the number of kills, even if it was just praise.  I am sure that kind of thing goes into their records, for future promotions.  So, if they keep a scorecard and you are praised for that, then it would seem drone pilots would feel they needed as many kills, as they could get.  This guy says he began to feel like a sociopath.  So, I know many have good intentions, but what they are ordered to do changes them.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18787450-former-drone-operator-says-hes-haunted-by-his-part-in-more-than-1600-deaths?lite


Offline bocker3

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2013, 08:07:09 AM »
If you are critical of obvious criminal behavior, fine -- if you are critical, lambasting and second guessing soldiers as they fight and their battlefield decisions (which require split-second actions), then I stand by my comment about not commenting on things you don't truly understand.
The difference between the guy who went out at night and massacred civilians in their homes vs. those shooting at insurgents mixed in with civilians are two completely different scenarios.  Yes, in both cases civilians end up dead -- but one is criminal and one is an unfortunate casualty of war -- and the blame for their death lay, not at the American's feet, but at the Iraqi insurgents.

I agree that Americans DO need to better understand the cost of war -- but honestly, showing them video of "someone else" dying, "somewhere over there" is not going to do that.  We are too easily able to "compartmentalize" that shit.  All these videos do is cause folks who already have decided how bad a war is that it is, in fact, bad.  I mean, if you really don't understand that war is bad and dangerous, than a video isn't going to help at all.  So, it's like preaching to the choir.  What is DOES do is cause more rabid hatred to build on soldiers and cause worsening of many soldier's PTSD (killing people -- 1 or 100's, will often cause permanent scars).
So -- if reporters want to "show" what war is like -- go there and report on it.  Leave the "secret" files secret.  Honestly, that is simply lazy-assed reporting and akin to Americans going about their business while others die.

M
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Offline wolfter

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2013, 10:21:07 AM »
This entire "gay made me do it defense" is sickening!!!  It does a disservice to our community. 
Judging someone does not define them, it defines you. 

True peace is not merely the absence of war, it is the presence of justice.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 02:23:00 PM »
As of about 7:30 this morning, Bradley is now Chelsea E. Manning.  Her lawyer was on the Today Show to discuss the case, and they read a press release from Manning, saying he wanted to be referred to as Chelsea, and that he wanted to begin hormone treatment as soon as possible.  They referred to him as Bradley and in the male pronoun, and then immediately switched to Chelsea and the female pronoun.

The anchor questioned whether this was an attempt to be moved to the women's prison.  And, she also brought up what a psychiatrist wrote about Manning, saying he was very narcissistic.  The anchor asked whether this announcement was just another example of that narcissism.  They show a pic of him in drag.  Well, I have a few of those of me.  All on Halloween, mind you. 

On, the lawyer said they never used the gay/transgendered issues as an excuse.  He said it was to give context of all going through his head, at the time.  He said he did it, because he had a strong moral compass. 

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 04:08:57 PM »
Hopefully they will at least provide him the hormone treatments he needs , since its medically necessary for his well being .   

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Bradley Manning - gay and transgender.
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 04:53:39 PM »
I forgot to add the link to the Today Show interview.  They are getting a new set, and have been doing the show outside on the plaza.  For this serious topic, they did it inside.  You don't want people holding signs reading, "Hi Mom," while doing an interview like this. 

http://www.today.com/video/today/52816887

 


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