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Author Topic: Interesting, deeper questions  (Read 3100 times)

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Offline Ram24

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Interesting, deeper questions
« on: August 13, 2013, 09:29:48 AM »
Dear Ann, JK, Andy & Jeff,

I am a big fan of this forum. First I started reading it when I had a risky exposure on Saturday. From now on, I realized that there was not HIV related risk for me (I fingered with a high risk girl with a finger which had a broken cuticle on it).

I really enjoyed your scientific explanations and I would like to go into even a little more deeper to understand why it is not a risk. I hope my questions would not look like disputant. I just realized how much I need information in this really interesting and useful topic.

I think a lot of people when in doubt are not satisfied with the answer of: You can only get HIV infection through unprotected vaginal or anal intercourse. The reason of it could be that they will find the just the very opposite of it in other websites.

I know that you cannot control other websites. However, if a newbie is surfing on the internet they will not see that you are more scientifically prepared than others in the topic.

This is why I think it would be superb if you tell us which materials you are working with. Whom opinions are you publishing in this forum? Who are the doctors who deal with these topic and who proven that HIV transmission in other ways is not possible. (Í found one, you can check it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVyvWENac4)

For example: When you say: There are no documented cases of infection throughout fingering or oral exposure. Do you have access for all the 35 million cases of hiv infection? What is the source of these statements?

The other thing which can be inexplicable for an average Joe is why fingering is different then for example when somebody in a healthcare environment had blood splash on her broken finger and got infected (there were some cases in the 1980’s I found)? There can be injured cells on the vagina and in the skins so the blood transmission can occur, why not? Because there are no documented cases? It is really hard to decide if a couple does everything (unprotected sex+fingering+oral) and one of them infects the other that it is through sex not through the other activities I mentioned. I know Ann had a long relationship when they had oral sex and protected sex with no problem but one couple’s example not necessarily true for everybody else.

So this is why the scientific approach is the best in my single opinion.

As long as I read all of your responses I found the following factors why fingering is not a HIV risk (you can complete the list and make it sticky that every people with these concerns can see the full explanation) (please answer my questions after the points to make them even more clear for the worried mates)

1., Blood cells on your finger don’t contain T-Cells which are receptive for HIV virus so even they enter the bloodstream, they die immediately (did I tell it right?)
2., Vaginal fluid does not contain infectious part only the cervix area which is far (how far exactly? Are you sure you cannot touch it with a finger?)
3., If you have a cut, a cuticle, a sore, a hangnail, your skins starts to heal immediately and even though the place of the injury looks red, it is not open so nothing can enter it (what if through the fingering it “reinjures” and then it would be open?)

I hope you can afford some time on the topic. I think if you give us more scientific answers, sources and name of the doctors who confirmed, it can calm the needlessly worried people here and everywhere searching on the internet (I saw JK linked some aegis materials older, but I could not open it … :\)

I really hope Ann, that you have good health since I realized that you are not healthy in this regard. I am really sorry and thank you for your contribution! :)

Last of all, here is a picture of my broken cuticle just hours after the incident. Can you make a 100% sure that I could not infected by the HIV Virus (even if my partner had a high viral load)?



I hope you guys will react that I am trying to be partner and understand the mechanism a little more, not like I am trying to find reasons to disagree with you)!

Best Regards:

Peter

Online Jeff G

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2013, 09:53:39 AM »
You are correct that we do not engage in discussing what other websites offer in the way of information , its a waste of time and resources .

The bottom line is you do not get HIV from fingering , its not a route for an HIV infection .

If we post endless scientific peer reviewed science every time we did an assessment we would be bogged down in an endless round of having to look at something dug up from another site disputing what we provided , many times by people not equipped to fully comprehend what they are reading or put it in proper context .

I understand what you are attempting to do . You want assurances that you didn't get infected from fingering and are not willing to accept the simple fact that HIV isn't contracted that way . I assure you that you didn't have a risk and if you haven't engaged in unprotected vaginal or anal sex you are needlessly worrying  .

Once again , and I'm speaking for myself . I refuse to trade links and play point counter point on HIV transmission every time I encounter a person who has a HIV phobia wants to go on and on about a no risk situation .

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 02:46:30 AM »
There are a whole lot of websites whose purpose is scientific discussion. Debate, even.

This is a support forum for people infected and affected by HIV and AIDS.

We put out this forum as a courtesy for those who are worried well. Perhaps their circumstances have overruled their logic. Perhaps they are ignorant, thanks to governmental/local politics as to the transmission vectors of HIV. Perhaps they are not intellectually capable of understanding basic virology, which is understandable given our society's sustained attack on critical thought in public education.

But we do it. It keeps people from harassing the people infected with HIV who view this as a safe haven. People who themselves might fall into any (or many) of the above categories above.

And we do it on a volunteer basis.

I have been known to throw down a few pages of scientific data myself when challenged to do so. I seriously doubt all of it, or even much of it, is actually read. Because if the people asking for the data had the capacity to parse it, then they would have FOUND IT ON THEIR OWN.

Aegis.org is a great place to start your collection of information.


I caution you to look askance to any data that relies on patient report. Until the advent of HAART/ART therapy, we had little else to go on, and electron microscopes had only begun to parse the depths of the virus itself in the early 90s.

So look for stuff from this century, if possible. I recommend the Romero study, and the Page-Shafer studies. Go for it.

But don't ask us to do your homework for you. If I am sufficiently bored, I might repost the scientific data. Of course, if YOU are sufficiently bored, you are free to look through this forum's archives. I have reprinted most of the data within the last month of so.

If your skepticism is as strong as your curiosity, then have at it. It costs you nothing to pore through a few thousand posts to get the info you want.

Frankly, I am disinclined to care very much if you don't believe our risk assessment.  If you had the intellectual curiosity you claim, then you would already have the same facts as we do.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Ann

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 08:18:14 AM »
Ram,

People are not no, low or high risk - activities are. It's insulting when you class people as "high risk" rather than activities. It's not WHO you do, it's HOW you do it. Make sure you get those three letters in the right order when assessing your risk. We do.

I was with an hiv negative man for over eight years - and he remained hiv negative. He is a construction worker and so often had small cuts and nicks on his fingers. I always had a detectable viral load when we were together as I wasn't on meds then. We did the ONLY thing we needed to do to keep him hiv negative - we used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse. We had a very full sex life that included fingering, frottage and oral sex - and protected intercourse.

Not one person has EVER been infected through fingering and you are not going to be the first.

If you cannot bring yourself to believe us when we tell you that you had no risk, go test. As a sexually active adult you should be having a full sexual health check up at least once a year anyway.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL sexually transmitted infections together.

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex without a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

ALTHOUGH YOU DO NOT NEED TO TEST FOR HIV SPECIFICALLY OVER FINGERING, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results.

Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv. Some of the other STIs can be present with no obvious symptoms, so the only way to know for sure is to test.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 08:35:22 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ram24

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 07:52:44 AM »
Dear Jeff, Jonathan and Ann,

Thank you very much for your responses.

Since you wrote me, I tried to search on the websites, everywhere. I found interesting facts.

JK, I searched for your last 300 posts and found several scientific links. Most of them are dealing with the lack of risk during oral sex, not fingering. Romero study as far I can understand does the same.

I found this, long post you wrote earlier in this topic:
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=21801.0

However, when I click to the aegis sources, it is not opening for me... :( Could you past the texts here? Thank you very much.

I think what most people don't understand is that when a small tear or cut happens (check my picture) the heal is sealed off in minutes.

Is it true? How quickly a cuticle tear like you see on the picture above (1mmX1.5mm approx) no longer an entry point of the virus? It happened around 13-14 hours before the fingering but it still hurt and looked like that (see above). I think people think and I first thought that the a wound can be infected with the virus as long as it does not heal fully.

What is a little bit weird for concerned people like me, that you always say the virus transmits INSIDE the body like a vaginal or anal intracourse. And most people vision the same when fingering happens.. How could you differentiate the two things? I know that the skin is different (mucous membranes vs normal skin) but if the skin is damaged than it looks like at least as volnurable for the avarage joe like the mucous membranes and since langerhans cells have cd4+ present in them (which helps the healing process) it looks like the same situation. Could you clarify this if you have time?

So to recap why it is not a risk for me, here is a recap (please react to all of them and then other concerned people can bookmark this page):

1. Wounds are sealed of minutes after the cut happens they are hard to reinjure since the hands have thick skin and barriers on them. So the virus can't get in to the bloodstream.
2. Even if they do get into the bloodstream, CD4+ cells are not found in wounds like this. They only found in wounds which caused by other infections disease (like a herpes wound) or in the mucous membranes in the urethra, rectum, vagina and in the foreskin (if you have one).
3. There has been a documented case of transmission through fingering. (to be honest, I can see why it is a big fact, but it is not that reassuring as far I can see for me and for other people who have been told that. I do not know why, I think it is human nature that you want to understand exactly why)
4. Vaginal fluid near the entry of the vagina are not infectious, the cervical fluids are (to be honest, this the only thing I COULD NOT FIND ANYWHERE ELSE and this is a little confusing for me as many well regarded professor did not accept it)
5. If you don't feel AT LEAST one of the main 3 ARS symptoms in the first 10-14 days (high fever, sore throat, body rashes) then you can be as high as 90% sure that you are not freshly infected.
6. Overall it is a very hard virus to transmit because a lot of virus have to get into the body to infect the person and in a small snick of the skin it is highly unlikely.


Most of the people say testing is not needed in this situation. So would you agree? It is a big statement because it tells me that I don't risk my life as well as others ...

Thank you once again for your contributions here and best regards!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 08:08:31 AM by Ram24 »

Online Jeff G

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2013, 09:19:10 AM »
Ram , we are not here to debate you on HIV transmission , You can search the internet to find pages that will support any theory no matter how outlandish it is .

We are well versed in HIV transmission science and you are not going to change our minds and we are not going to go endless rounds trying to change yours .


Offline Ram24

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2013, 02:27:48 PM »
Ram , we are not here to debate you on HIV transmission , You can search the internet to find pages that will support any theory no matter how outlandish it is .

We are well versed in HIV transmission science and you are not going to change our minds and we are not going to go endless rounds trying to change yours .

Dear Jeff,

Nooo :) I do not have intention to debate, argue about this or anything..

I just want to have more explonation because of course I am afraid of the situation as well as others maybe in the future and in the past...

I am sorry if you or anybody feels that I don't believe you... Believe me that would be the best thing fore me if you are right and I am not in danger...

The more explonation you give to us, we will feel muh better if we understand the situation exactly ... :/

It would mean a lot if you guys could take a look at my additional questions and remarks and react to it...

Thank you very much one more timd being a voluenteer and helping others in this site :)

Online Jeff G

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Re: Interesting, deeper questions
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 03:48:16 PM »
We have done all we can do to assure you that you can not get HIV from fingering , like Ann told you already if you cant accept that you didn't have risk then go test , collect your negative result .

It doesn't matter that you bought a subscription we addressed your questions already so Im giving you an official warning .

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

 


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