Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 19, 2014, 03:31:23 AM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 620331
  • Total Topics: 46738
  • Online Today: 209
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online
Users: 3
Guests: 165
Total: 168

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Welcome to Am I Infected

IMPORTANT UPDATE
Posted Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Welcome to the "Am I Infected?" AIDSmeds forum.

New members -- those who have posted three or fewer messages -- are permitted to post questions and responses, free of charge (make them count!). Ongoing participation in the "Am I Infected?" forum -- posting more than three questions or responses -- requires a paid subscription.

A seven-day subscription is $9.99, a 30-day subscription is $14.99 and a 90-day subscription is $24.99.

Anyone who needs to post more than three messages in the "Am I Infected?" forum -- including past, present and future AIDSmeds Forums members -- will need to subscribe, with secure payments made via PayPal.

There will be no charge to continue reading threads in the "Am I Infected?" forum, nor will there be a charge for participating in any of the Main Forums; Meds, Mind, Body & Benefits; and Off Topic Forums. Similarly, all AIDSmeds pages, including our "How is HIV Transmitted?" and "Am I Infected? (A Guide to Testing for HIV)" lessons, will remain accessible to all. 

NOTE: HIV testing questions will still need to be posted in the "Am I Infected?" forum; attempts to post HIV symptoms or testing questions in any other forums will be considered violations of our rules of membership and subject to time-outs and permanent bans.

To learn how to upgrade your Forums account to participate beyond three posts in the "Am I Infected?" Forum, please click here.

Thank you for your understanding and future support of the best online support service for people living with, affected by and at risk for HIV.

Author Topic: Body Rubbing  (Read 6308 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Body Rubbing
« on: October 18, 2006, 08:39:56 PM »
Is there an increased HIV risk via receiving oral, if you have an untreated std such as gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis, etc.? ???

Offline Andy Velez

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 23,855
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2006, 08:44:18 PM »
There has never been a confirmed case of someone becoming HIV infected through receiving a blowjob nor from receiving cunnilingus. Uncounted trillions of such events later, it's safe to assume we would have known long before today if there was any risk including when other STD conditions are present.

Unprotected intercourse is a separate and different issue and with some STDs there is a greater vulnerability to HIV transmission in relation to them. For instance, unprotected intercourse during an outbreak of herpes definitely makes the person with herpes more vulnerable to HIV infection.

But as far as receiving oral, none of the conditions make a proven difference in terms of HIV.

Cheers,   
Andy Velez

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2006, 09:01:02 PM »
What complications would a case of untreated gonorrhea or chlamydia cause? Say, in a one year or two year time frame? My symptoms have been a case of conjunctivitis with redness, itching, watery eyes and blurred vision. It has since cleared up on its own. My eye doctor was unable to reason a cause of my conjunctivitis. I have also had severe joint pain in my shoulders as well as at times with my knees. I used to be very active by going to the gym. Since last fall I have lost around 15-20 lbs. My acitivity levels and eating habits have changed. Could untreated Gonorrhea cause weight loss? I have noticed tenderness and pain in my testicles at times and have noticed changes in things in my scrotum. I have also had a rash around my genital area and what I believe to be some balanitis circinata. But, I have not noticed any discharge that I am aware of. I had an HIV test back in May which came back negative.
I have received oral sex a handful of times unprotected and have received unprotected oral one time since testing for HIV in May. I have never had an STD panel done. Could this be a case of Gonorrhea? Thanks for your help.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2006, 06:41:24 AM »
Guy,

Untreated chlamydia can result in an arthritis-like illness called  Reiter's syndrome. You should talk to your doctor about this. (conjuntivitis can be one of the symptoms of Reiter's, as can joint pain)

Since getting blowjobs is NOT a risk for hiv infection, you can rely on your negative hiv results.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2006, 01:32:39 PM »
So I went to the Dr. yesterday and found out I have a Urinary Tract Infection. Are these usually caused by gonorrhea or chlamydia? They took a urine sample but I won't know the results for a week or so. Are there any long term implications if I had one of those two and it went untreated for a long length of time? I asked the nurse if I should take another HIV test since testing negative back in May. I told her I had a case of receiving unprotected oral back in June. She said that receiving oral was a risk and asked me when my last test had been. She then told me that she would wait a year or so. Are people really that stupid?

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2006, 02:18:33 PM »
Guy,

Yes, some people really are that stupid.

Getting a blowjob is NOT a risk for hiv infection and the window period for hiv testing is three months.

The term urinary tract infection (aka UTI) is a catch-all phrase to describe .... well, an infection in the urinary tract. There are many possible causes. You will know the cause of yours when your results come back. Did you ask about Reiter's syndrome like I suggested? Don't be afraid to ask your doctor questions. Your relationship with your health care provider should be a partnership, not a one-way street.

Whatever is going on, you are hiv negative as your test result in May shows. Getting a blowjob is not a risk for hiv infection, so your negative status will not have changed.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2006, 05:11:01 PM »
Thanks for the reply Ann. I really appreciate it. I forgot to mention to her the pain I was having in my joints but I did tell her about the case of conjunctivitis that I had. If the urine sample comes back positive for gonorrhea or chlamyida, how long does it usually take to clear up? If I do in fact have Reiter's syndrom is it irreversible and will the antibiotics that they prescribe clear it up as well? Thanks again for your help.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2006, 10:46:59 PM »
Guy,

There is plenty of good information on Reiter's available on the internet. When you mentioned conjuntivitis in combination with joint pain, it was the first thing I thought of - however, only a doctor can diagnose this for you. Google Reiter's and discuss it with a doctor.

A course of antibiotics for either gonorrhea or chlamydia normally lasts a week, but can vary depending on what is prescribed. Again, this is something to discuss with the doctor.

And remember, you are hiv negative.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Increased HIV infection
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2006, 11:18:44 PM »
Thanks again Ann... :)

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Body Rubbing
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 02:38:23 PM »
I just wanted to know if there is any risk with rubbing body parts together unclothed? As far as I know...no intercourse took place...thanks for the help

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,250
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2007, 02:47:53 PM »
This kind of rubbing is called "frottage".  No, there is NO risk for HIV associated with such a practice.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2007, 02:50:10 PM »
Even if a girl is on top of me rubbing her vagina against my penis? I'm guessing I would know if my penis went inside of her?

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,250
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2007, 03:00:46 PM »
Yes, even if.  Read the Lessons section here for the low-down on HIV transmission.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 03:13:51 PM »
How about if there were vaginal fluids involved...and they got on my penis?

Offline dixieman

  • Member
  • Posts: 889
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 04:27:22 PM »
man oh man... take a chill pill... its a good way to catch crabs, scabies, herpes or hpv... but, not hiv... learn your diseases...

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 05:53:39 PM »
Guy,

I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep all your additional thoughts or questions in one thread.

If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.

Please also read through the Welcome Thread so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.

As the guys have told you, frottage is not a risk for hiv infection. Hiv is a fragile, difficult to transmit virus that quickly becomes damaged outside the human body and unable to infect.

The main danger with frottage is that you might get carried away and engage in penetration without a condom. Yes, you would have known if you penetrated her.

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted infection. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

While you do not need to test for hiv over this specific incident, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 01:50:31 PM »
One other question...I sometimes do my girlfriend's laundry...the other night after work I went to wash some of her clothes and found her panties from that day...they contained a dried white substance in them...is that something that is normal...or is it a sign of an sti? I have also noticed dark stains in the crotch area of her other panties...thanks for the help

Offline ACinKC

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,994
  • Bring it VIRUS! #2 Ranked In-crowd Member!
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 01:54:52 PM »
I'd ask her.  But keep in mind, stains are common.

Edited to add:
By common, I mean that EVERYONE in this world has stains at some point or another and they are NOT usually the result of an STD.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 02:08:05 PM »
Well when I asked her...it caused a big fight...I thought that she had maybe cheated on me...and she told me that I was the one that did that to her...but she put them on before work...and I wasnt at work with her...so I'm just wondering if it is normal...or if she did cheat on me ...or if it was a sign of an sti?

Offline ACinKC

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,994
  • Bring it VIRUS! #2 Ranked In-crowd Member!
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 02:21:51 PM »
You cant possibly diagnose STD's using panty stains. 

This is an HIV forum.  Not a panty stain forum.  We can't help you with your relationship.  Keep trying to talk things out with her.  But dont come on here asking about this kind of thing.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 02:30:23 PM »
I figured a female member might be able to help me with this...I just wanted to know it it was normal for a woman to have that in her panties...

Offline ACinKC

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,994
  • Bring it VIRUS! #2 Ranked In-crowd Member!
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 02:32:17 PM »
I'm sure one will be along shortly.

But as a man, married to a woman, I can assure you there are MANY reasons for stains and you CANNOT diagnose an std from panty stains.

I will also re-iterate that this is an HIV forum, not a panty stain/is my girlfriend cheating on me forum.

Please respect that.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 03:49:08 PM »
guy,

What you describe is completely normal. Sheesh.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2007, 03:08:03 PM »
I had intercourse a few days ago. I used a condom but after ejaculating, I did not withdraw from my partner's vagina because she said that she was about to. Anyways, when I pulled out the condom was no longer on. It was right at her opening though. My question is should I be worried and should I test over this incident. I do not know her hiv status. Thanks for the help.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2007, 03:27:36 PM »
cool,

You lost the condom on withdrawl because you were no longer erect. From now on, you need to hold onto the base of the condom when you withdraw - to save yourself from scaring yourself silly.

No risk, no need to test.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2007, 03:38:30 PM »
Thanks Ann. I know that much...haha. What I'm saying is I ejaculated and got soft and then continued to allow her until she did which was a min or so after me. Then I withdrew. It didn't come off as I was withdrawing.That's why I'm asking.

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,192
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2007, 03:42:28 PM »
Believe me, it came off when your penis was withdrawn. You did not have a risk.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2007, 06:27:50 PM »
This is a bit of a different question...but can hiv live inside of a steroid vial...I mean if you were to purchase steroids could someone infect someone that way?

Offline Andy Velez

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 23,855
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2007, 06:30:38 PM »
HIV is a fragile virus. I am not getting how you are imagining viable HIV would be placed inside a steroid vial and then remain viable.

I've certainly never known of transmission to occur in such a manner.

Nor do I ever expect to.
Andy Velez

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 12:04:01 PM »
Are you guys sure I had no hiv risk? I mean when I pulled out the condom was no longer on. She had to reach inside and pull it out. Wouldn't this mean that I had some time where I was unprotected? Thanks for the help.

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,192
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 05:38:20 PM »
Yes, we're sure. If you would have held onto the condom when withdrawing you wouldn't have lost it. You did not have a risk.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2007, 11:41:50 AM »
The condom came off and I had no risk?  ???

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,192
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2007, 11:52:16 AM »
You lost it on withdraw, you did not have a risk.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2007, 12:42:11 PM »
I don't think I lost it on withdraw though...I think it came off before that...because I went limp and kept having intercourse... ???

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,192
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2007, 01:29:57 PM »
Then the person had to dig to retrieve the condom?

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2007, 01:48:29 PM »
Yes...

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2007, 05:50:31 PM »
Rapid Rod? Anyone???

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2007, 06:23:07 PM »
guy,

It's your call. If you feel that the condom was not covering the head of your penis while you were inside, then test. However, don't be surprised by a negative result. That's exactly what I'm expecting and so should you.

As you are sexually active, you should be having regular, routine sexual health care check ups anyway, as I told you some time back.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2007, 01:52:52 PM »
Rapid Rod???

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2007, 01:57:37 PM »
Anyone?

Offline RapidRod

  • Member
  • Posts: 15,192
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2007, 02:04:19 PM »
You were the one that said you lost it before you withdrew. I concur with Ann. Just go test at 13 weeks post exposure. Don't ask us what we think your results will be. None of us have crytal balls.

Offline cool_guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2007, 03:08:54 PM »
Then the person had to dig to retrieve the condom?

One post you say no risk. Then you posted this question and I said yes. I didn't get any more responses that's why I'm confused if I had a risk or not.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 27,947
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Body Rubbing
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2007, 06:17:24 PM »
guy,

Only you know if you were inside without a condom covering the head of your penis. We weren't there. If the head of your penis was uncovered and exposed inside, then you had a risk, albeit a small one. Either way, I'm fully expecting your result to be negative.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.