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Author Topic: Tomorrow it's personal  (Read 2138 times)

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Offline buginme2

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Tomorrow it's personal
« on: June 25, 2013, 06:27:20 PM »
SCOTUS should announce the decisions on DOMA and Prop 8 tomorrow (10am east coast 7am west coast).

Progress or setback? Nervous, excited, scared? Do you care?

My emotions are running the gamut. 

Offline mecch

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 07:08:59 PM »
Maybe trashing voting rights was a play to counterbalance trashing DOMA???
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline buginme2

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 07:18:51 PM »
I can't see DOMA being upheld.  Maybe that's optimistic thinking.  Prop 8 on the other hand, narrow victor only affecting California is my prediction however, possible that the current states that allow civil unions but not marriage may be required to convert those to marriage.  Sweeping decision for all the US, no way. 

The voting rights act decision today, not really unexpected.  The 5/4 decision on predictive lines was the surprise in my opinion.  I would have expected a couple of the more liberal judges to change sides and actually judge against it.

Offline wolfter

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 07:39:31 PM »
Quote from: s voting rights was a play to counterbalance trashing DOMA???
[/quote

Sorry, but I'm gonna ask for clarification.  I don't understand half of what people write and I've always been hesitant to ask.  But with you, I will.  I understood the thread just fine, but not your response.

OH, and Wolfie worked all day outside in the heat.  So now both my brain and body are frazzled. ;D  And I'm going to go enjoy dollar beer day up the way.  So if I post anything after midnight, disregard.


Maybe trashing voting rights was a play to counterbalance trashing DOMA???

and you all see how good I am at this, but I managed to get it all in there, regardless if the wrong words are shaded.  Hope everyone has a great evening.
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 07:44:36 PM »


Both issues are personal to me.  I worked in voter registration drives in the early 1970s and know as we all do, the struggles of minorities to gain and maintain the right to vote.

Links to further analysis and results of the Court's voting rights action:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/25/politics/scotus-voting-rights/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/25/us/annotated-supreme-court-decision-on-voting-rights-act.html

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/25/2212281/two-hours-after-the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act-texas-ag-suppresses-minority-voters/
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 07:48:50 PM by OneTampa »
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline buginme2

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2013, 07:56:07 PM »
Hey Wolfie today SCOTUS struck down a portion of the voting rights act of 1965 pretty much invalidating the law.  Now states can enact restrictions on voting (such as requiring id's, redistricting, etc) without getting federal approval, which they were required to do under the law, before today. 




Offline mecch

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 05:18:47 AM »
I've heard analysis about how the Supreme Court operates historically over time. One being that when it makes decisions, it takes into account the "general publics" ability to swallow bitter pills, as it were.  Meaning, is the American public ready for this decision....  Also they don't want to undercut their authority in the 3 centers of power system.  I believe SCOTUS decided in favor of certain rights for American Indians and Andrew Jackson just ignored them and this potentially showed the Court had no real power. (? too lazy to go look this up again sorry).

All the Senators publicly supporting striking down DOMA is a way for the left to show the court that the public can handle it.  Because its been moving fast in a few years, public opinion. 

Roberts went out on the plank for Affordable Care.

So kill Voting Rights, but then a vote for gays and lesbians? (cynical view but just throwing it out there.  Boil it way down to, "we 2x elected an African american so protections are no longer required, and they were selectively abusive to certain states anyway.  But maybe gays and lesbians need the civil rights underline at this time in history...." thats not my thought, thats how i'm saying maybe SCOTOS is operating.)

Personally I would have liked a trifecta of Affordable Care, Voting Rights, and Gay Marriage.  Oh well...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 05:26:14 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 10:16:55 AM »
DOMA struck down! 

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 10:29:37 AM »
Prop 8 ruled narrowly on California.  Marriages can resume in CA.

Justice Kennedy ruled with the majority on DOMA, but ruled with the minority in Prop 8.  Chief Justice Roberts ruled with the majority in Prop 8.  Kennedy gave us hints he had issues with standing in the Prop 8 case. 

While I held out hope for a broad decision, I knew we would have to wait longer in our states.  This is a huge step forward for gay Americans.  Millions of gay couples, married in the marriage states, will now have so many protections and benefits. 

Modified to say I forgot to say I modified this.  My original post was the first paragraph.  The first modification was the second paragraph. 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:43:38 AM by tednlou2 »

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 10:44:47 AM »

"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline buginme2

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 03:40:46 PM »
All in all, a good day at court

Offline Joe K

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 03:54:17 PM »
As pleased as I am with the court rulings, logic fails me to understand how they could overturn DOMA as unconstitutional, but still allow each state to define the civil rights of their citizens.  It's great if you live in the 13 states that permit gay marriage, but what about the folks in the other 37 states?  How does it benefit anyone, who live in states that forbid gay marriage, to be eligible to receive government benefits, when they can't meet the married criteria.

I don't think America will see equal gay rights for at least another 15 years.  As promising as the tide changing is, do not be fooled, there are still millions of Americans who have no problem in discriminating against the LBGTQ communities.  I long ago tired of being judged by those Americans who believe in limiting my rights as an American citizen, who also happens to be gay.

It infuriates me, when religion is used as a foundation for discrimination against anyone.  Until you rid the law of religious influence, equal rights for non-heterosexuals in America will continue to be: one step forward, two steps back.

Joe
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 03:57:05 PM by killfoile »

Offline mitch777

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 04:41:31 PM »
As pleased as I am with the court rulings, logic fails me to understand how they could overturn DOMA as unconstitutional, but still allow each state to define the civil rights of their citizens.

I was listening to NPR today. The person that brought her case to the courts specifically was presented on the issue involving the lack of Federal benefits for those whose marriage was legal in the state that they reside.
The entire DOMA was not on trial.
I'm sure it won't take long before another case will come up in regards to allowing states to choose for themselves whether or not to grant same sex marriage.
Of course, by the time it gets to the Supreme Court, I believe another dozen states or more will have already changed their laws.
Slow yes, but I wouldn't describe it as one step forward, two steps back.
I'm right there with you on being furious for your stated reasons.

edited to add:

I wonder if someone who lives in say, Oklahoma could go to another state that recognizes gay marriage, get married, continue to live in Oklahoma and be granted federal benefits.  ???
Straight couples do it all the time. (Vegas weddings)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 04:52:32 PM by mitch777 »
32 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline bmancanfly

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 05:00:47 PM »


The Supreme's decision on DOMA was so broad that it's hard to imagine how any challenge to any state ban on same sex marriage would fail.  But we'll see
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 05:07:03 PM by bmancanfly »
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

 Bertrand Russell

Offline pozniceguy

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  • Niceguy Dallas
Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 06:59:04 PM »
since the  Feds  will now  recognize  "marriage " as  a right  and  eligible  for federal  benefits  ...it  will be  difficult  for  states to  deny those  couples  the "right"  to  any programs  administered  by  the  states  with  federal  money ...I  see many   wrangles and  law  suits  coming as the  states are  challenged in the  benefit  areas... almost every  major  benefit program  has some  federal  support  (  funding) and  the  "married"  couples  will now have a solid  standing to  be  entitled to those benefits.....   be an interesting  exercise to see a  State require  married  couples  to  file taxes as " single"  when they are  " Married " for  Federal  tax  purposes...I  suspect  that the  "vegas"  weddings  will become  wide spread  among  those  whose  state  doesn't  "permit"  same  sex  marriage but  want to  secure the  Federal  benefits
   looks like the  Lawyers and  ACLU  will have many more  years of  secure income  from representing these  issues

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Online Jeff G

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 07:13:28 PM »
I'm really touched and encouraged when I hear all the people who have won their right vow to help us that are still waiting to realize ours .

All of us that are gay have dealt with stigma , so we stood up to be counted and refused to hide and it made all the difference ,

Offline mitch777

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 09:06:14 PM »
I'm really touched and encouraged when I hear all the people who have won their right vow to help us that are still waiting to realize ours .

All of us that are gay have dealt with stigma , so we stood up to be counted and refused to hide and it made all the difference ,
and after all of this marriage mess is finally cleared up in the courts maybe our community will get more focused on standing up (once again in full force) and focus more on the hiv crisis.
pipe dream?
32 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline bocker3

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  • You gotta enjoy life......
Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 09:41:59 PM »
As pleased as I am with the court rulings, logic fails me to understand how they could overturn DOMA as unconstitutional, but still allow each state to define the civil rights of their citizens.  It's great if you live in the 13 states that permit gay marriage, but what about the folks in the other 37 states?  How does it benefit anyone, who live in states that forbid gay marriage, to be eligible to receive government benefits, when they can't meet the married criteria.

I think the rationale is actually the same -- it is the state's role to deal with marriage, not the Federal Gov'ts.  So, if a state says you are legally married, the Fed's have no standing to pick and choose who's marriage they will recognize.  (not saying I agree with this logic, but I think that is how they got there).

I am moving forward with the assumption that my marriage license from the state of Massachusetts now allows me to file Federal taxes as a couple (thereby saving me thousands of dollars) even though I live in Virginia.  Virginia may not recognize my marriage, but the Federal Government now must.

I suspect that there will be another case in the next 5 years or so that strikes down all these state bans, because the US Constitution has the full faith and credit clause that SHOULD require states to recognize ALL marriages from other states.  Even if they don't want to allow the marriages to happen in their states, I don't see how they can be allowed to ignore other's.

I see today as a HUGE step forward --

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 01:06:37 AM »
Has the Court not set precedent?  Justice Kennedy wrote that the law is unconstitutional because it "Demeans the couple...Humiliated tens of thousands of children now being raised by gay couples...Serves no legitimate purpose and violates the constitution's guarantee of equality." 

It would seem any future cases to say it is unconstitutional for states to deny marriage equality will point to that.  Kennedy could have written that in different language.  I think this will be settled within 5 years.  I think by the next presidential election. 

On a side note, I remember when the Bush and Gore lawyers were pushing this case, they were met with many (gay rights groups, too) saying this was not the right time and they were going to ruin it.  Edie Winsor said the same today.  She said when she contacted certain gay rights groups, they told her this was not the time.  In all honesty, I was concerned, myself.  But, I still thought it was good they were going ahead.  In fairness, if it hadn't gone our way, many would have said they were right. 

Offline mecch

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  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2013, 04:28:43 AM »
The gay groups said that maybe because they underestimated the fast flip in public opinion.  Remember when Biden then Obama said they favored equal rights for gays including gay marriage?  People in this forum thought he had blown re-election chances, just by that statement.

I liked Nancy Pelosi's retort to Michele Bachmann's evangelical opinion of the SCOTUS decision.  "Who cares?"

The right is so deeply misguided about the separation of church and state.  Its INSANE what they are capable of doing this year with all the abortion restrictions.  INSANE.  The bible bangers are, ironically, gonna drag the country straight to hell.
 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Oceanbeach

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Re: Tomorrow it's personal
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2013, 08:17:45 PM »
40 something years ago, I was honorable discharged from the U.S.A.F. and my only unused benefit for my service was a veterans home loan.  These loans are nothing down and very low interest rates, I think with the required paperwork, they are pretty much guaranteed funding, I never used mine.

About 14 years ago, I went to a lender and found, the monthly payment on a fixer property I had chosen was liveable for my budget but, since I was on disability, I could not be funded for any real estate purchase unless...  I got any job OR I married someone who could qualify for the payment and the loan is guaranteed because I am the veteran.   I believe I can get married and qualify for that  VA home loan.  Now, if I can just find a man who wants to live with me in a California beach cottage.  8)  Have the best day
Michael 


 


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