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Author Topic: What would the world be like AFTER HIV is cured? (The good, bad & ugly)  (Read 3919 times)

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Offline JazJon

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With the promising research "cure" news building for 2013,  it got me thinking.

What would the Gay world be like after HIV is cured?  I'm mostly curious about this from a gay man's perspective.
(but all can & should chime in of course)

First thing that comes to mind:
It would be interesting to hear from the experienced folks that were at their sexual prime in the X0's/70's/80's. (Based on how things used to be pre-hiv)   For one thing being gay and OUT was not not very popular back then, so that is one big variable.   How far back would the sexual freedom pendulum swing? 

The internet has taken over in a huge way when it comes to finding, flirting, meeting & socializing.  Imagine no longer having to fill in your online profile "status" any more.

Imagine the deep "sub-culture" of poz gay guys blending back in to the norm.

Imagine no longer having to have the awkward talk with someone you started seeing. (it's like coming out of the closet twice)

I'm not really sure what I'm asking.   I'd just like to hear people with a great imagination and vision predict something interesting! 
(good, the bad, and the ugly) 
((basically how things can, should, or could be))

I did some light google searches and didn't find much.  Feel free to post links if you know or found any stories already out there relating to my curiosity. (I'm sure I missed something, but wanted to ask either way)

Offline mecch

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I don't think the past will provide any detailed mirrors to what a future after the cure will be.

Its a new world every 5 years it seems to me.

Things to consider: a cure isn't eradication.  What is HIV sticks around years after a cure.  What if the cure is too expensive and only some get it. 

Will the cure be an "almost cure", where you stay positive but healthy with no drugs, and you can't get HIV again? 

A vaccine + a cure would be ideal. 

How long does eradication take - is it conceivable?  Is a vaccine necessary?

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline JazJon

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Those are good points.   I know I've thought of the "cure" vs partial/"functional cure" vs "vaccine" for neg people only angle before.   I think that's what I subconsciously meant when I added (The good, bad & ugly)

Keep'em coming

Offline leatherman

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Things to consider: a cure isn't eradication.  What is HIV sticks around years after a cure.  What if the cure is too expensive and only some get it.
these same thoughts could even apply to a vaccine. What if it's too expensive? what it not everyone gets it? What if people think, like they do when NOT using condoms, that THEY aren't the type who would get HIV and so don't need the propholaxtic vaccine?

Either way (and this is my quote stolen from that other thread) when some people are cured, or non-infected people are vaccinated, funding and access will decrease in proportion to the need. It'll be tough for those who will still need meds and healthcare as resources will be withdrawn and fewer people will be concerned about the remaining few. No one will be looking to improve meds.

ASOs will (thankfully!! :D) lose the client stream - and the funding to care for them. Just like monies that currently pay for Ryan White and disproportionate shares (the $$ given to hospitals to care for the indigent) are being shifted to cover Medicaid Expansion; monies that have gone into care for PLWHA will go into vaccine or cure campaigns and treatment.

How far back would the sexual freedom pendulum swing?
I don't know that there's any pendulum to swing. ;) Gay folk and straight folks have been getting it on hard and heavy since like forever and haven't quit. That's why HIV infections rates, STI infection rates, and pregnancy rates haven't hit 0. Actually most of those categories are climbing so there's pretty much unfettered sexual freedom going on - and it's been going on like that for a whole lotta decades.

Will the cure be an "almost cure", where you stay positive but healthy with no drugs, and you can't get HIV again? 
that's not a lot difference from the current situation of someone on successful treatment. The catch is will these "almost cured" still be able to transmit HIV to the non-infected? Right now successful treatment has approximately lowered this transmission rate to 4%. Until it's 0%, the epidemic won't stop.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline JazJon

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I posted the question to Reddit as well.   
http://www.reddit.com/r/hivaids/comments/1dlnqt/what_would_the_world_be_like_after_hiv_is_cured/
&
http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1dlnsp/what_would_the_world_be_like_after_hiv_is_cured/

interesting reply:

"hateboresme [+1] 2 points 2 hours ago (2|0)
HIV has been around and affecting my life since I hit puberty in the mid 80s. I have never lived, as a sexually active person, in a world in which it wasn't a concern. I have had the same question a lot in the last several days. I am not Poz myself, but I do work with poz people in my job, so here's what I think:

-People will be skeptical. The virus is "undetectable" in most of my clients right now, but they're still considered to be infected. People will question whether the cure is really a cure.

-People who have lived with HIV for 30, 20 or 10 years will be free of the disease which has taken a large part of their lives and many of their friends. This will be very emotional for them.

-I predict that there will be a sexual surge, especially among men who have sex with men (MSM) who have been living with HIV/AIDS fear-driven sexual repression for decades. People will get out there and have a lot of unprotected sex because they will feel that the deadly disease can't hurt them. They will find that living with Hep C, HPV, herpes or any of the other STIs will not be a walk in the park either.

-People who have been being forced to live in poverty to pay for their ridiculously expensive medications and medical care(or be eligible for programs with help with paying for them) will no longer need the medications or medical care. They will be set adrift after years of unemployment and/or living on disability. They will have to readjust to being not sick. They will lose the medical services upon which they've come to depend for their well-being as well as the assistance they may have been receiving to pay for their food, shelter, clothing, etc. It will be a huge adjustment for some.

-People who gave up on their dreams because they believed that they were doomed to die will perhaps find a renewed hope.

-There will be joy. Great joy and tears among people living with HIV/AIDS and people who are not. People will no longer have to live in fear.

-HIV stigma will (eventually) be a thing of the past. No more ostracizing and abandoning of potential lovers for being poz. No more rejections for HIV status. No more fear of rejection causing isolation...no more fear of endangering others causing isolation.

-I will be happily unemployed."

Offline Ann

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As this thread is not about research news nor any specific studies, I've moved it out of the Research News and Studies forum and into the Living forum.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Breast cancer can sometimes be cured now.  Has that fact stopped research on improving the cure rate?  Has that fact meant that a woman with breast cancer has less funds available for treatment?
I dont necessarily agree that a "cure" will lead to less funds for people who are HIV+.  I understand the fear and the logic that says it would.  But I'm not sure its inevitable.

I haven't really studied the details, but I believe there are many countries now where HIV is just another expensive disease that the national health care system deals with.  I don't think national health systems are going to back track and say, oh, there's a cure so if you aren't cured, sorry, no more money for you. 

There will be a price for the cure and the national boards will decide if the price is reasonable and if the human need is worthy - so whether it goes on the list of things that must be paid, or not.  Agreed.

I almost ALWAYS have American-bred fears that my Europeans friends don't have and don't understand on matters like these. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:08:17 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline leatherman

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Breast cancer can sometimes be cured now.  Has that fact stopped research on improving the cure rate?
that's similar to the 60% cure rate that was mentioned in some thread. Breast cancer has not been 95-100% cured by any stretch of the imagination so research continues.

consider smallpox though, which has been cured. i doubt much money and research is still being done on that disease.

When HIV is cured, because dollars are a finite item, we will see money move from treating, curing, researching, etc HIV to some other disease (probably cancers as retrovirus cures will be more understood by the HIV cure). Programs that specifically pay for HIV services will dwindle and be phased out as the need will no longer be there - because fewer people will be getting infected and the infected people that can't be cured will be aging and dying off. It's supply and demand economics. ;)

that was a great response you got Jaz
-People who have lived with HIV for 30, 20 or 10 years will be free of the disease which has taken a large part of their lives and many of their friends.

-I predict that there will be a sexual surge, ... They will find that living with Hep C, HPV, herpes or any of the other STIs will not be a walk in the park either.

-People who have been being forced to live in poverty....They will be set adrift after years of unemployment and/or living on disability.

especially this part
This will be very emotional for them.
It will be a huge adjustment for some.
while I hope for a cure for all those happy reasons, it's the change that would come to my life after 27+ of being positive that scares me at times. But just as I struggled through losing friends, losing partners, years of sickness, years of meds, I'll manage to get through being over 50 and no longer HIV positive if the cure comes along. ;) ;D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Joe K

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I posted the question to Reddit as well.   
http://www.reddit.com/r/hivaids/comments/1dlnqt/what_would_the_world_be_like_after_hiv_is_cured/
&
http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1dlnsp/what_would_the_world_be_like_after_hiv_is_cured/

interesting reply:

"hateboresme [+1] 2 points 2 hours ago (2|0)...

-People who have been being forced to live in poverty to pay for their ridiculously expensive medications and medical care(or be eligible for programs with help with paying for them) will no longer need the medications or medical care. They will be set adrift after years of unemployment and/or living on disability. They will have to readjust to being not sick. They will lose the medical services upon which they've come to depend for their well-being as well as the assistance they may have been receiving to pay for their food, shelter, clothing, etc. It will be a huge adjustment for some.

-HIV stigma will (eventually) be a thing of the past. No more ostracizing and abandoning of potential lovers for being poz. No more rejections for HIV status. No more fear of rejection causing isolation...no more fear of endangering others causing isolation.

I'm not sure what a future without the fear of HIV might entail, but I sure hope the HIV educators of the day are more astute than this guy.  I cannot comprehend, how he could make such uninformed blanket statements, about a world in which he has never lived.  He's not poz, but he tells me that somehow, after 30 years of being poz, with all the wonderful benefits that has bestowed upon me, that I will arise, refreshed, renewed and HEALED, to resume the life I left 30 years ago.  Somehow, the three decades of damage wrought on my mind, body and soul will be HEALED.  Really?

If that wasn't enough good news, he then suggests that because I will have been HEALED, I will no longer have any need of medical attention, nor financial support, because I am HEALED.  Somehow, I will return to the work force, find a good paying job and be living on easy street in a few short years.  It will be just like I never had HIV at all because I've been HEALED, except I would not be HEALED, I would be CURED.

There is a vast difference between no longer having HIV and reversing or even arresting the damage that prolonged illness has on a person.  I believe that if a cure was announced today, that it would take at least one full generation to essentially conquer HIV worldwide.  My experience tells me there will be powerful money on all sides of this issue and that the cost of the cure will dictate where and how fast is it used.  Sadly, there will be no great rush to distribute the cure to those least able to afford the price.  There isn't now with HIV medications, which only prolong life, thereby insuring a steady profit stream and if you think the drug folks are going to make switching to a cure, cheap or easy, then you just have not been paying attention to reality.

HIV stigma will take even longer to ease.  It takes forever, to remove unbridled hate of the unknown.  It's 2013 in America and the country is still divided by race, a remnant of a civil war fought well over a century ago.  Maybe a cure will ease the fear of the unknown, because a fear of something "unknown" or "undefined" is easy to harbour and nurture.  Right now, with regards to HIV, there are far more "unknowns" than "knowns" and until we tip the scales towards the "knowns", fear and stigma of HIV will always be present.  It's far easier to fear something we don't understand and for some folks, fear seems to be all they have.

Joe

Offline leatherman

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but he tells me that somehow, after 30 years of being poz, with all the wonderful benefits that has bestowed upon me, that I will arise, refreshed, renewed and HEALED, to resume the life I left 30 years ago.  Somehow, the three decades of damage wrought on my mind, body and soul will be HEALED.
I think you misread something. The word "HEALED" was never used.

The guy wrote that pozzies will be set adrift; it will be a huge adjustment; it will be very emotional; they will lose services and assistance, (for things like food, shelter and clothing). When I read it, it sounded like he understands (since he states that he works with poz people) the dramatic change this would be and that it wouldn't all be good for those who had been infected/sick for many years; that it would be a hard, difficult time of adjustment.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Dr.Strangelove

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My guess is that it will take some time (years or maybe a decade) for the stigma to disappear.
The public has been living with that fear of AIDS for so long, it will not go away easily, even if a perfectly working cure comes around.

And remember that (with the exception of that recently cured baby) all cured people will still show positive on a regular HIV test (antibody test). How do you explain that to people who understand little about the science behind HIV? (remember this?)

Offline JazJon

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As this thread is not about research news nor any specific studies, I've moved it out of the Research News and Studies forum and into the Living forum.

Ann

Ok, makes sense for now, until a cure is found that is  ;-)
(then "Living" With HIV" won't make sense either)

And remember that (with the exception of that recently cured baby) all cured people will still show positive on a regular HIV test (antibody test). How do you explain that to people who understand little about the science behind HIV? (remember this?)

Wow, that Twitter good/bad news mistake was quite the blunder.  Her on going responses almost make it seem fake but I know I've met plenty of people over the years who have had similar'ish experiences. (and I wasn't the least bit surprised when it happened)

My understanding is the antibody test will grow weaker and weaker and should eventually test negative.
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=21770.msg497953#msg497953

Well, in the case of the Berlin patient they are doing very sophisticated tests that check virus in every nook and cranny. They might still be missing some areas but they have also found that, as time goes by, he has fewer and fewer levels of HIV-antibodies in his system so it's predicted that at some point he will actually test HIV-negative, if those antibodies disappear.

It's probably similar to how people eventually test negative for antibodies to vaccinations they've had more than 5-10 years ago

Great responses, really makes you think of the future from so many different angles.  (and new ones I didn't even think about)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 05:50:55 PM by JazJon »

Offline leatherman

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leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline JazJon

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Yeah let's go with fake!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:33:45 PM by JazJon »

Offline JazJon

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EDIT oops duplicate post, can't figure out how to delete.  I clicked "quote" a few posts above thinking it was "edit" but I waited longer than the 15 minute time out.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:36:11 PM by JazJon »

Offline Joe K

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I think you misread something. The word "HEALED" was never used.

The guy wrote that pozzies will be set adrift; it will be a huge adjustment; it will be very emotional; they will lose services and assistance, (for things like food, shelter and clothing). When I read it, it sounded like he understands (since he states that he works with poz people) the dramatic change this would be and that it wouldn't all be good for those who had been infected/sick for many years; that it would be a hard, difficult time of adjustment.

I didn't misread anything, because I never said the author of that post used the word "HEALED."  I was using sarcasm to illustrate the idea of just because we may be cured, does not mean we will be HEALED.  The idea that they will dismantle all the programs that currently support disabled pozzies, just because we are cured, makes no sense at all.  Curing LTS or even folks with 10-15 years of infection, will not reverse any damage done, nor will it somehow transform the disabled into employable folks.

I could never work full time, even from home, so my job prospects would be non-existent.  To suggest that all the programs for pozzies, that we fought and died for, would be dismantled with no regard to actual need is simply misguided.

That's why I said his opinions were uninformed, because as an HIV caseworker, he knows the toll that HIV takes.  Until most of us LTS are gone, nothing will change in our lives, by being cured, because a cure cannot  "HEAL" us, it can only cure us.  I just cannot believe that former pozzies, would be fed to the wolves as soon as they are cured.  And if it happens, we have no one to blame, other than ourselves.

Joe

Offline JazJon

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I didn't misread anything, because I never said the author of that post used the word "HEALED." 

I got the same impression since you started off the sentence with "He tells me" (He as in the author)

He's not poz, but he tells me that somehow, after 30 years of being poz, with all the wonderful benefits that has bestowed upon me, that I will arise, refreshed, renewed and HEALED, to resume the life I left 30 years ago.  Somehow, the three decades of damage wrought on my mind, body and soul will be HEALED.  Really?

I get the Gist of what you're saying though, carry on.

Offline oksikoko

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-People who gave up on their dreams because they believed that they were doomed to die will perhaps find a renewed hope.

Sure, but on the flip side, an aborted graceful exit is a difficult thing to recover from - financially, socially, physically, etceterally. I know more than one person (i.e., two) whose prognoses changed under newer ART and who were not prepared to have so much time with so little money (and so few friends) left. Humans are complicated. Even good news can be traumatic if it uproots your plan.

But, true, some people will just be happy instead.
Code: [Select]
2014-11-14: CD4 Wars Episode II: Return of the Stribild (released in Europe as Stribild II: Werewolf Bitch)
2014-11-06:                ☣ VL (→) 12,627      ☣ CD4 (→) 639
2014-??-??: off treatment  ☣ VL (?)              ☣ CD4 (?)
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

If no one complains, nothing will ever change.

Offline Joe K

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I'm sorry if I come across as being sceptical about the ramifications of a cure, because my experience tells me that some folks will rig the game to squeeze out the most profits, misery of others be damned.  Sometimes I find myself channelling Daddy Tim, the words come without effort and I find myself becoming increasingly frustrated that the HIV community of today is sorely lacking.

We've allowed our ASOs to become compromised, if they still exist and cuts to sorely need programs, such as Ryan White and ADAP, barely register on the AIDS community radar.  Just because we can treat HIV successfully, doesn't mean anything, if millions of those infected, never receive that treatment.  It is as if, post-HAART, HIV is just another manageable disease, where you take a pill or two and you will be just fine.

Unless you can't access the meds you need to live.  Or access the services that allow you to at least live a minimal existence, because HIV/AIDS has destroyed so much of what made you a functioning human being.  The cuts just keep coming and anyone who thinks the issue of health care in America is being solved... well my history tells me differently.

I wish reality was different, but it is not.  I hold hope for a cure or at least a vaccine, yet neither of those will change the world of HIV as we know it.  What I do know, is that if we just keep accepting whatever society decides to throw our way, that eventually a cure will be the least of the problems for an ever ageing HIV community.

Joe
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 07:57:46 PM by killfoile »

Online Jeff G

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I wish reality was different, but it is not.  I hold hope for a cure or at least a vaccine, yet neither of those will change the world of HIV as we know it.  What I do know, is that if we just keep accepting whatever society decides to throw our way, that eventually a cure will be the least of the problems for an ever ageing HIV community.

Joe

Well said Joe . I was thinking the other day about what would life be for me if we had a cure and I cant honestly say a cure would make a difference to me at this point in my life ... I could be wrong . I have a pretty impressive list of medical conditions as a result of HIV that will not go away even if the virus does . I will be happy for those who are cured and escape the uncertainty of living with HIV but for me the day of seeing a cure with my good health intact are long gone .

Offline oksikoko

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To suggest that all the programs for pozzies, that we fought and died for, would be dismantled with no regard to actual need is simply misguided.

Many of us would still need them (hi, still homeless here), and many of us have co-morbidities (still bonkers too) that would justify them, but I don't think Joe and Jackée Taxpayer would allow these programs to continue very long, need or no need, justification or no justification. They're fed up already, and if we all get cured, there are plenty of other people in line with their hands out who have as-yet incurable ailments and who get few to no services now. It's little comfort to those of you who suffer, but sympathy for our "condition" in the broader public is not what it was a few years ago. Public policy seems to be made on 1) sympathy, 2)  fear and *lastly* a little compassion thrown in from the humanist and religious sets.

I don't get monetary assistance from HASA (HIV/AIDS Services Administration in NYC), but I do get administrative assistance with paperwork, etc.,  and I know pleeeeeeeenty of people who do get benefits. The grapevine says that they're facing new cuts left and right. In terms of housing, I hear near constant murmurs about:

1) increases in rent co-pays to more than the 30% income mark set for other people on disability benefits
2) cuts (by half) to broker fee and deposit assistance reimbursements
3) shrinkage in what they will actually pay for - apparently now they only do studios, no one-bedrooms.

As for that last one, I should be so lucky to get a subsidized studio (!), but other people have other needs, and who am I to judge? Times is tough.

With that said, I know quite a few people who seem to be milking the system and some who proudly proclaim that they are. So.
Code: [Select]
2014-11-14: CD4 Wars Episode II: Return of the Stribild (released in Europe as Stribild II: Werewolf Bitch)
2014-11-06:                ☣ VL (→) 12,627      ☣ CD4 (→) 639
2014-??-??: off treatment  ☣ VL (?)              ☣ CD4 (?)
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

If no one complains, nothing will ever change.

Offline JazJon

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Well said Joe . I was thinking the other day about what would life be for me if we had a cure and I cant honestly say a cure would make a difference to me at this point in my life ... I could be wrong . I have a pretty impressive list of medical conditions as a result of HIV that will not go away even if the virus does . I will be happy for those who are cured and escape the uncertainty of living with HIV but for me the day of seeing a cure with my good health intact are long gone .

well I did say good, bad & ugly, uhg :-( 
IMHO, A post cure world is definitely way more complicated than the average person out there thinks.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:21:35 PM by JazJon »

Offline oksikoko

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What I do know, is that if we just keep accepting whatever society decides to throw our way, that eventually a cure will be the least of the problems for an ever ageing HIV community.

Yes, sir. Everyone's always going on about how HIV impacts youth and can't we save the children? That it does and yes we should, but frankly, I'm a little more concerned about all the homeless, lonely positive older folks where I'm staying. I don't know the number, but more than half are older than me, and I'm no spring chicken myself.

Lee
Code: [Select]
2014-11-14: CD4 Wars Episode II: Return of the Stribild (released in Europe as Stribild II: Werewolf Bitch)
2014-11-06:                ☣ VL (→) 12,627      ☣ CD4 (→) 639
2014-??-??: off treatment  ☣ VL (?)              ☣ CD4 (?)
2013-10-03:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1105
2013-05-23:                ☣ VL (=) undetectable ☣ CD4 (-) 945
2013-02-25:                ☣ VL (-) undetectable ☣ CD4 (+) 1123
2012-12-16: Enter Stribild
2012-11-20: HIV+           ☣ VL (→) 132,683      ☣ CD4 (→) 920
2012-04-01: HIV-
Dates in this signature file conform to ISO 8601. ;-)

If no one complains, nothing will ever change.

Offline leatherman

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I don't know the number, but more than half are older than me, and I'm no spring chicken myself.
by 2015, more than half the people (50%) living with HIV will be older than 50 yrs old
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline JazJon

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by 2015, more than half the people (50%) living with HIV will be older than 50 yrs old

Wow I had no idea, is that in North America only or World Wide? (even Africa etc)

Offline Dr.Strangelove

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That's in the US: link

Offline vaboi

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To be honest, the best part of there being a cure especially if it's a vaccine cure, is that one won't have to worry about some disgruntled ex-boyfriend, past fuck buddy, or friend from using a so-called "non-disclosure law" to try to blackmail, extort, or seek revenge if they ever get mad at you.  That can be just as worrisome as the fear of getting hiv was back when neg.  After a vaccine (therapeutic or prophylactic) is found, it will very likely be where everyone who has been exposed to the vaccine will test positive on the antibody tests, and no one will know for sure who was really pos and who wasn't.  lol   These so-called lists each state uses to keep track of who is pos will quickly become meaningless, along with the old outdated hiv laws dating back to the late 80's, since they will become unenforceable.  Then hiv will finally be just another STD and not something you could get 25 years to life over even if you used a condom and not at all trying to intentionally spread it.   One less way to discriminate against gay people in the legal system would be the best gift in the post cure age.

 


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