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Author Topic: How safe is oral sex???  (Read 2316 times)

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Offline clintonjrsyr

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How safe is oral sex???
« on: April 01, 2013, 05:31:59 PM »
I had a conversation with jkinatl2 a few weeks ago. And I tried to post what he sent me and my response. (jkinatl2-please feel free to respond.) I had an issue with his tag line saying oral sex was safe no matter what. Which I disagreed with. The information I have may be outdated seeing as my last training was like three years ago. So jkinatl2, if you can post that link showing that I'm wrong, please do. As the saying goes, you have a right to be mistaken, but not to be willfully ignorant or to your own facts. ( I hope I got that right. ) And I choose not to be the latter. Anyway, he was saying that oral sex posed almost a non-existant risk no matter what. And I told him that I disagreed because I was taught that if you brushed your teeth, or ate anything that could cause abrasions to your gums like popcorn, penuts, or potato chips, that your risk is no longer low risk. That your risk increases. jkinatl2 informed me that there were several enzymes in your saliva that killed the HIV virus. And as I've said, my information may be outdated, because I did broach the same theory with the woman who taught the class for me to become a peer as well as a senior outreach worker who had done it for years. And I was told that you either had to swallow the semen immediatly, or spit it out immediatly. (Holding the semen in your mouth while you went to the bathroom to spit it out would be keeping it in your mouth too long.)
Live like there is no tomorrow, love like you've never been hurt before, and dance as if no one is watching./

To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the suffering./

Just because someone doesn't love you the way that you want them to, doesn't mean that they don't love you with all that they have./

All men are alike in their promises. It's in their actions that they differ./

If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 07:53:30 PM »
My tag line mentions nothing about safe sex. It mentions "safer" sex. Safe sex is sex with your hand.

Also, please be clear here. You are not talking about "oral sex" really, are you? You are specifically talking about receptive fellatio.

I am curious as to why you didn't simply use the search feature to find any one of the dozens (hundreds?) of threads on this forum that go through this topic. Neither the science nor my interpretation of it has changed significantly in the last three or four years, and I would simply be cutting and pasting - again.

As an HIV educator for roughly twenty years now, I admit to growing weary of doing that however. Maybe someone else can cut and paste for me.It al really boil down to the validity of patient report after the fact, anecdotal report, and controlled serodiscordant studies which compensated for that weak spot in (ethical) human study.

I will, of course, copy and paste again if need be. I simply admit to getting a little testy about it. It's one thing to ask someone to go through aegis.org and the paywall-blocked scientific sites. That shit takes hours and hours, speaking from experience.

It's another thing to simply ask for maybe just resurrecting the most recent zombie thread and asking if everyone still feels/thinks the same way. Well, those threads that haven't been locked due to flamewar - which I admit to being pretty vulnerable to participating.

Also, the thing about spitting it out instantly and not holding it in your mouth is from the 90s. I'd say the early 90s at that.

I'd rather let other people have a chance at bat on this one, though. I am really really tired of banging that drum. You certainly aren't going to change my mind without some compelling evidence.

An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.
— Marcello Truzzi, On the Extraordinary: An Attempt at Clarification, Zetetic Scholar, Vol. 1, No. 1, p. 11, 1978



*edited to add: See how my post is broken up into short blocks of text? That's way easier to read and comprehend, especially if discussing technical scientific stuff. Please, OP, please consider doing this.





« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 08:07:52 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline mecch

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 08:22:32 PM »
 clintonjrsyr - I remember reading that you no longer do safersex education.... Why is this topic so important to you these days? 

Anyone of us has been in any number of trainings in our lives in which trainers told us things that are not based on peer review research.  As a teacher, I've been to some pretty loopy pedagogy trainings, in which the info was entirely personal wisdom of the trainer, or based on outdated ideas... 

Why can't you see this must be true of safersex education training.  We're 30 years into the epidemic.   Some trainer told you about popcorn and potato chips....  I mean, really....  Doesn't make it scientific info... 

(I remember in the 80's a fuck buddy of mine used to go wash his mouth out with hydrogen peroxide after a blow job, with no sperm.  Said some safersex counselor told him it was a good idea...  Okidokey.)

Now and then, I've heard some untrue ideas even from doctors and nurses, over the years.  Misinformation is rampant. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline anniebc

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 09:44:39 PM »
This was taken from the "Better Health Channel - HIV and Gay men".

It clearly states that oral sex is safer sex if you follow the guidelines.

Sexual activities that are considered safe include:
Kissing
Cuddling
Stroking and massage
Masturbation
Mutual masturbation
Ejaculating on unbroken skin
Urinating on unbroken skin
Oral sex (with a condom or no ejaculate in the mouth)
Protected anal intercourse (using condoms).
Safer sex suggestions

Some suggestions for safer sex, including when to avoid some practices:
Anal sex – use condoms and plenty of water-based lubricant.
Oral sex – there are a small number of recorded cases of people getting HIV from performing oral sex and taking ejaculate into their mouth. In almost all of these cases, the person had herpes sores, wounds, cuts or infections in their mouth.

It isn’t easy for HIV to enter the bloodstream through the mouth or throat when sucking. However, to be sure of being safe, the HIV-positive partner shouldn’t ejaculate into their partner’s mouth. To further reduce the risk, a condom can be worn. The HIV-negative partner should avoid performing oral sex if they have cuts or sores in their mouth, a throat infection, have recently undergone dental work or have just brushed or flossed their teeth.

Most of the sites I have read will tell you that oral sex is merely Theoretical, and the definition of Theoretical, as I'm sure you know means Not practical.

Last but not least if I had any doubts,uncertainties or concerns about HIV then JK is the one I would go to for advise. I have been taking advise from him for the last 10 years and he has never let me down.

Jan
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Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline friskyguy

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 11:33:25 PM »
.......and further to the smart risk reduction methods mentioned above by others.......

if you are taking meds and UD and have been for years and not suffering with STIs  and your giving ur prized member up for servicing.......risk is further reduced to your lover.....and i would personally venture further to say that this holds true even if your lover has a craving for your ejaculate!  :P
Sero converted Sept '10 / Confirmed + Dec '10
Jan '11, VL 9,500 / CD4 482 (32%)
Feb '11, VL 5,800 / CD4 680 (37%)
start Atripla
Mch '11, VL UD / CD4 700 (42%)
Jun  '11, VL UD / CD4 750 (43%)
swap to Kivexa and Efav. due to osteopenia diag. (DEXA) / kidney issues ( decline in eGFR to 77 )
start supplements - Vit D3 / Omega 3 / multivitamin / mini aspirin
Dec '11,  VL UD <20 /  CD4 670 (49%)  / CD4:CD8 = 1.4
all labs now within normal ranges
Mch '12,  VL UD / CD4 600 (51%)
Sep '12,  VL UD / CD4 810 (51%)
Mch '13   VL UD / CD4 965 (56%)
Sep '13   VL UD / CD4 (not taken)
Dec '13   VL UD / CD4 901 (35%) / CD4:CD8 = 1.1  /  eGFR > 100

Offline clintonjrsyr

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 12:26:38 AM »
ok. I've just read safer sex 101 oral penile sex. And I think I know what they did.
 
Since they did say that they only take their information from the CDC website or AIDSMEDS.COM, they took the information where it says not to brush or floss right before performing oral sex and included anything that may cause abrassions to your gums. As well as extending the time frame from right before to two hours.
 
Again. Why they would tell me that saliva doesn't hinder someone from getting HIV when performing oral sex I do not know. But I do see where it says getting HIV from oral sex is very rare. Off to the CDC website.
Live like there is no tomorrow, love like you've never been hurt before, and dance as if no one is watching./

To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the suffering./

Just because someone doesn't love you the way that you want them to, doesn't mean that they don't love you with all that they have./

All men are alike in their promises. It's in their actions that they differ./

If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Offline clintonjrsyr

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 12:40:39 AM »
From the CDC website:-
 
Oral Sex and the Risk of HIV Transmission
The risk of HIV transmission from an infected partner through oral sex is much less than the risk of HIV transmission from anal or vaginal sex. Measuring the exact risk of HIV transmission as a result of oral sex is very difficult. 
 
Additionally, because most sexually active individuals practice oral sex in addition to other forms of sex, such as vaginal and/or anal sex, when transmission occurs, it is difficult to determine whether or not it occurred as a result of oral sex or other more risky sexual activities. 
 
Finally, several co-factors may increase the risk of HIV transmission through oral sex, including: oral ulcers, bleeding gums, genital sores, and the presence of other STDs. What is known is that HIV has been transmitted through fellatio, cunnilingus, and anilingus.
Live like there is no tomorrow, love like you've never been hurt before, and dance as if no one is watching./

To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the suffering./

Just because someone doesn't love you the way that you want them to, doesn't mean that they don't love you with all that they have./

All men are alike in their promises. It's in their actions that they differ./

If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Offline Jeff G

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2013, 12:48:58 AM »
The cdc is notoriously slow at updating information because its a very conservative organization .


Offline clintonjrsyr

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2013, 12:56:59 AM »
As I've said. The organisation that I volunteered for got their information from the CDC website and AIDSMEDS.COM. 
 
And just so you know jkinatl2, I did go to aegis.org. And the information that you have was put out in 1995. The information that I'm about to put out now was put out in 2001. Which was the most recent one I could find.
 
The risk of contracting HIV from oral sex may be greater than previously thought.
 
It has long been known that the virus can be transmitted through oral sex - but the risk was thought to be minimal.
 
However, research in the UK and US among gay men now suggests that oral sex may be responsible for up to 8% of HIV infections.
 
Other sexually transmitted diseases, such as syphilis and gonorrhoea are also spread from person to person by oral sex.
 
Public health experts fear that the public is unaware of the dangers associated with the practice because it remains largely a taboo subject.
 
In addition, anecdotal evidence from other countries like the US suggests that people tend to reject messages advising them always to use condoms for oral sex.
 
In fact, such messages can, in theory at least, put people off condom use altogether.
 
Greater awareness

A report by the Public Health Laboratory Service (PHLS) report concludes it is important for people to be more aware of the dangers and decide for themselves the level of risk they consider acceptable.
 
Dr Barry Evans, an PHLS expert on sexual diseases, said: "The picture that is emerging is that the risk is greater than previously thought.
 
Dr Evans stressed that HIV is mostly spread through anal and vaginal sex.

Recent studies confirm that unprotected anal sex is clearly the highest risk activity, accounting for over 90% of transmission in gay men in the UK.
 
To coincide with the public health report, the HIV charity, the Terrence Higgins Trust has begun a six-week advertising campaign, mainly in the gay press, warning of the health dangers of oral sex.
 
The charity's Will Nutland said: "We know from talking to gay men about their sex lives that many of them have concerns and questions about oral sex, and these adverts provide easy-to-understand information, with contact details for further advice should they want it."
 
Research has shown that not ejaculating into the mouth of an uninfected person during oral sex may lessen the risk of HIV transmission.
 
However, it will not eliminate it totally as pre-ejaculatory fluid is also capable of transmitting the HIV virus.
Live like there is no tomorrow, love like you've never been hurt before, and dance as if no one is watching./

To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the suffering./

Just because someone doesn't love you the way that you want them to, doesn't mean that they don't love you with all that they have./

All men are alike in their promises. It's in their actions that they differ./

If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2013, 01:13:02 AM »
From the CDC website:-
 
Oral Sex and the Risk of HIV Transmission
The risk of HIV transmission from an infected partner through oral sex is much less than the risk of HIV transmission from anal or vaginal sex. Measuring the exact risk of HIV transmission as a result of oral sex is very difficult. 
 
Additionally, because most sexually active individuals practice oral sex in addition to other forms of sex, such as vaginal and/or anal sex, when transmission occurs, it is difficult to determine whether or not it occurred as a result of oral sex or other more risky sexual activities. 
 
Finally, several co-factors may increase the risk of HIV transmission through oral sex, including: oral ulcers, bleeding gums, genital sores, and the presence of other STDs. What is known is that HIV has been transmitted through fellatio, cunnilingus, and anilingus.

From the CDC website:-
 
Oral Sex and the Risk of HIV Transmission
The risk of HIV transmission from an infected partner through oral sex is much less than the risk of HIV transmission from anal or vaginal sex. Measuring the exact risk of HIV transmission as a result of oral sex is very difficult. 
 
Additionally, because most sexually active individuals practice oral sex in addition to other forms of sex, such as vaginal and/or anal sex, when transmission occurs, it is difficult to determine whether or not it occurred as a result of oral sex or other more risky sexual activities. 
 
Finally, several co-factors may increase the risk of HIV transmission through oral sex, including: oral ulcers, bleeding gums, genital sores, and the presence of other STDs. What is known is that HIV has been transmitted through fellatio, cunnilingus, and anilingus.


Sadly, the CDC is incorrect about quite a few things. Like this:

<<There is an extremely remote chance that HIV could be transmitted during “French” or deep, open-mouth kissing with an HIV-infected person if the HIV-infected person’s mouth or gums are bleeding>>

This has never been documented, yet it exists on the site as a risk. IN addition, all "documentation" for oral sex in ANY form has been the result of patient report after the fact.

Simply put, you are using an aggregator of information, which has not been substantially updated in this decade, rather than citing a source. An aggregation, without footnotes, is not a source.

Can you at least provide cited studies? If they predate the serodiscordant studies, then there's your problem. Or problems, really. Bias combined with politics combined with the lack of footnotes.

Analingus has been documented? How? Where? Under what conditions?

The CDC is NOT a citation. A scientific study is a citation. I have rather exhaustively provided citations for my assertions - assertions that I have been handing out in the form of risk assessment on this site for ten years.

Cunnilingus has NEVER been firmly documented as a source for HIV transmission.

Neither has analingus, or insertive fellatio. And, since the elimination of patient bias in the three serodiscordant study, neither has receptive fellatio.

Patient report after the fact, even absent the stigmas of sexuality, homosexuality, and the unique stigma surrounding HIV, has never been a reliable source for information.

Once that was circumvented, and the studies came in, oral sex in any form (along with analingus and kissing) dropped completely off the map.

Please, Jan, I dearly love and respect you as a professional. You also sourced an aggregate without footnotes or links to studies.

Show me the data. Show me the science. Because as it stands, we are not even in the same building.

It's equivalent to asking the definition of a word, and rather than sourcing a dictionary, one sources an essay or work of fiction that uses the word (perhaps incorrectly, perhaps inaccurately, perhaps ironically.)

This site, and HIV prevention efforts as a whole, deviate in some fundamental ways from the CDC.

Moreover, even an isolated incident provides nothing more than an outlier and has little if any bearing on safer sex education as a whole.

case in point:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00030972.htm

Assuming the 20 year old study was accurate, should we then place a caveat on being an HIV positive parent with a negative child? Being roommates? Being in a serodiscordant relationship. Given the frequency, especially in depressed seroeconomic locations within the US where the conditions cited in the study still exist, why have only two infections even been documented? If only two, then the behavior displayed by the mother still represents safer sex.

It is disturbing that you would use the term "safe" sex. Only sex with yourself constitutes that.

I stand totally by my assertion that receptive fellatio, absent oral conditions which are impossible to ethically study without intervention (meth mouth, for example) and an insanely high viral load, is safer sex.

Interesting story about the first Page-Shafer study. She was in Atlanta, I believe, and began the study to monitor the progression of HIV through different methods of transmission. Specifically, she wanted to know whether people who were infected through oral sex had a different disease progression than those infected through vaginal and anal sex. This is why she recruited serodiscordant couples who admitted to using no barriers whatsoever for oral sex, yet used condoms for anal and vaginal sex.

After five years, there were no oral infections to track. Stymied, she then ran the HOT study in San Fransisco for three years, again studying serodiscordant couples. This time, she wasn't looking for the mechanism by which HIV advances through oral sex. She was looking for it's very existence in the wild. And like her former study, like the ten year Romero study in Spain, she found none.

As far as I know, there are no further serodiscordant couples studies researching the phenomenon of oral transmission. If there are, someone could do me a kindness and point me to them.

I abjectly refuse to give anecdotal report the same weight as controlled study.

If you want me to list the reasons why people misrepresent their perceived route of transmission, I gladly will. And these reasons are almost ALWAYS borne out, over time, as the person discloses more and more information about their lifestyle, history, and past.

But until we can agree to use a higher standard and an aggregate, I am afraid it's relatively unsourced and in many cases obsolete information versus documented data.

Me, I go with data.

If he truly believes his citations, then the OP is putting everyone he kisses at risk for HIV.

Protip for Socratic research: Look at the level of infection for WXW throughout the pandemic.

Also, look through the forums for WSM who claim oral infection, if you need to utilize anecdote. That alone should reveal the bias.

I remain dismayed at the level of HIV education, even (especially!) within the HIV community. A poor grasp of the scientific method is no foundation for credibility.





"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2013, 01:25:48 AM »
Please link to the study, which was indeed presented in Atlanta this past year. I would like very much to learn the specifics which led to the researcher making that bold claim.

Dollars to donuts they are using anecdotal report.

*edited to add:

Aaand I was correct. Not only did the study use patient report after the fact, but the doctor actually used the cautions regarding using condoms for oral sex in a slippery slope argument, saying that eschewing condoms for oral sex can lead to abandoning condoms altogether.

My least favorite arguments are the ad homimen, the straw man, and the slippery slope. They are almost always used when the data is weak, if not nonexistent.

But I applaud you for attempting to use the Socratic Method.

So were the ten year Romero study, the five and three year Page-Shafer studies mere flukes?

I am dismayed no one has taken those studies on or even acknowledged them whatsoever.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 01:31:53 AM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2013, 01:34:49 AM »
PS: Until a serodiscordant couple study emerges that shows the circumstances which facilitate transmission through any form of oral sex, I will maintain my position with confidence. Using soft science to debunk hard science (not exactly a correct analogy, since the soft science studies came at a time when hard data collection was, due to mortality an impossibility) is never apt.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline clintonjrsyr

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2013, 01:57:15 AM »
Sorry. But all that information that I've just posted was from aegis. I'm not familure enough with that website to find the study that you're asking for. You can find my artical under "oral sex HIV warning."
Live like there is no tomorrow, love like you've never been hurt before, and dance as if no one is watching./

To live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the suffering./

Just because someone doesn't love you the way that you want them to, doesn't mean that they don't love you with all that they have./

All men are alike in their promises. It's in their actions that they differ./

If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 02:03:27 AM »
How is this for messed up?

A source for oral sex transmission:

http://www.avert.org/oral-sex.htm#references

cites as it's source for oral transmission the SAME CDC site cited by the OP:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/transmission.htm

Which, itself, does NOT SOURCE IT'S ASSERTIONS.

That's like someone using ME as a source, without using the sources I cite.  It's meaningless parroting of information that is not only obsolete, but by many reasonable measures, invalid.

God, this is a deep ass rabbit hole. And sourcing to aggregates who do not, in turn source their info, is useless, misleading, and a major source for stigma against HIV infected people.

Protip- that's a major reason for my tenaciousness regarding the subject matter.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline clintonjrsyr

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 02:20:15 AM »
1st report: Given that the results are based on a relatively
small sample, we can not rule out the possibility that the probability of
infection is indeed greater than zero,” said study lead author Kimberly Page
Shafer, PhD, MPH, assistant professor of medicine at UCSF’s CAPS. 
 
2nd report: Objective: To investigate reported cases of oral HIV transmission in a cohort of persons with primary HIV infection
Methods: From 6/96 - 6/99 we enrolled 122 persons with primary HIV defined as within 12 months of documented HIV seroconversion or history compatible with primary HIV infection confirmed by less sensitive EIA test. Risk behaviors for the period during which infection occurred were elicited with self-administered and interviewer administered questionnaire. Potential oral sex transmission cases were reviewed following an investigation protocol of a follow-up interview by an epidemiologist, review of clinical notes and partner corroboration where possible.
Results: There were 20 (16.4%) cases where the route of acquistion appeared to be oral sex on initial evaluation. Of these 20 cases, 3 provided insufficient additional information for classification. Of the remaining 17, 9 (53%) were subsequently reclassified as not associated with oral transmission due to other potential route of exposure. Two reclassified patients reported never engaging in anal sex but each reported a single episode of substance use associated with a blackout and risk could not be reliably recalled. Four patients reported a single incident of unprotected anal receptive anal intercourse and 1 reported a condom break during the period HIV was acquired.  After follow-up investigation, 8 cases  (6.6%)  were classified as likely oral sex transmission. Each of the men believed oral sex represented no or minimal risk.
Conclusion: Oral sex transmission may be over-reported. However, even with strigent criteria for classification, oral risk transmission represented 6.6% of infections in our study of primary HIV. Despite lower transmission risk, oral sex may be an important mode of HIV transmission due to its frequency. This finding has substantial prevention implications. Standardized investigation of HIV transmission via oral sex is needed to understand the epidemiology and risk of this behavior.
 
3rd report:
 
Abstract


We analysed a cohort of heterosexual HIV- serodiscordant couples with the aim of evaluating the risk of transmission ascribed to unprotected orogenital intercourse. A total of 135 seronegative individuals (110 women and 25 men), whose only risk exposure to HIV was unprotected orogenital sex with their infected partner, registered 210 person-years of follow-up. After an estimated total of over 19,000 unprotected orogenital exposures with the infected partner not a single HIV seroconversion occurred.
 
 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 02:22:48 AM by clintonjrsyr »
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2013, 03:24:03 AM »
I have never said that the infection from receptive fellatio is zero.

I am saying that it is close enough to aero to. like Dr. Page-Shafer, whose quote started this thread, be considered safer sex.

As HIV/AIDS prevention funds dwindle (like they were vast to begin with) do you honestly think we should run the fool's errand of promoting condoms for oral sex?

How about dental dams?

Am I the only one that find it ironic that you are quoting, to prove YOUR point, the very professor who is quoted in MY signature line - the signature line to which you took what is apparently deep and personal offense?

Just about every scintilla of evidence I use for my assertions is on these forums.

And the report you posit is one.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 05:35:13 AM »
Would have been edited to add:

I will post once again, when I return to the forums, much of the science I use to base my assertions.

Then, as I deeply suspect this has become yet another JK against whomever thread, I will bow out and let anyone, anyone who wants, do the following:

A) repost, defend, fight, whatever.

B) See me removed as a moderator in AM I INFECTED because my answers there will not change. If you truly believe I am doing harm in risk assessment and HIV prevention education, it should be your sworn duty to do so. I certainly would, were I convinced someone was facilitating more infections with his instructions on a site I found otherwise credible.

Why?

Because I am goddamned tired of picking up the slack for this weary old argument every time it strikes a person's fancy to have it, especially if they are too lazy to find one of the hundreds of threads lurking on these forums that deal specifically with this issue. My science was the same three years ago as it is now. Longer than that, even.

But this is hours of my life I don't get back, and all because someone can't use the search function.

Some of the science:

No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.


Simply put. I have NO NEW arguments. Just the same ones. And posting them again and again is a waste of my time.

You can quote the CDC all you want. Unless you disclose before deep kissing someone then you are a fraud and a fake, because even that is considered a risk.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline bocker3

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 07:51:29 AM »
JK,

I think you have already gone far and above what is warranted here.  This poster seems to be on some sort of crusade around sex.  Not sure what clicked it off for him, as he registered back in 2010 but did not post anything until March of 2013.  The vast majority being about either oral sex or disclosure.  Funny that he focuses on what are, likely, the 2 topics that always generate the most conflict on these boards.

I say -- let's stop feeding him.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Ann

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Re: How safe is oral sex???
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 08:25:35 AM »
One thing so many refuse to consider is this:

If receptive fellatio was as high risk as so many seem to want to believe, then why are there NO women claiming receptive fellatio infection? I've yet to hear of a single case.

There are FAR more women in the world who give blowjobs than there are men, yet not one woman has claimed oral infection. It's telling.


JK,

I think you have already gone far and above what is warranted here.  This poster seems to be on some sort of crusade around sex.  Not sure what clicked it off for him, as he registered back in 2010 but did not post anything until March of 2013.  The vast majority being about either oral sex or disclosure.  Funny that he focuses on what are, likely, the 2 topics that always generate the most conflict on these boards.

I say -- let's stop feeding him.

Mike

I agree with everything you wrote, Mike.

It's all been said over and over and over - and in that light, I see no reason to leave this thread open.

~click~

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Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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