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Author Topic: I never expected......  (Read 2423 times)

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Offline avgguybx

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I never expected......
« on: March 07, 2013, 08:25:40 PM »
So let me preface this with a little information and a few statements because I know that what I am about to write is going to probably make some people mad.

I have had HIV for about 8 years and been on meds for about 3 years now. I have been long term UD. After diagnosis I was celibate for 5 years out of sheer fear and loathing of myself quite honestly. About 5 years ago I met a guy online who sounded nice and we have been living together for about 4 years now. In that time we have been "intimate" 2 times.. both times safe. We are basically just 2 people living together at this point.

I've been very lonely and don't normally look for companionship but its has been a very tough time for me because things at home have not been going well. I also did something rather stupid and got a hold of some ... not so legal substances to "dull the lonely" ... Yes I know it wasn't smart or wise but what is done is done.

I state all of this so you can understand the current problem that I have. Now I know I have done wrong. I know I need to fix it. Okay all that being said here is what happened....

I decided to go online and look for some "companionship" because I was really lonely. As usual with these kind of websites they have the option as to what you like and what you don't and also your status. I choose to not answer the status question in my profile. (Again probably not right but not intentionally wrong either... I just didn't want to put it out there like that... especially on a hook up site).

Anyway a guy responded and we started talking and we decided to hook up. It was evident by his profile that he did not like to play safe, but he never asked me about status and I never did him either (I know this doesn't take away the responsibility, I just want to give a clear picture). So I went ahead and hooked up with him.. And that was all I was expecting to happen... but there was more... so much more...

I met him and we talked and talked and it turned into something... well a lot more than I was looking for or ever expected. I met him and I sat back and thought (after the 1st day...) this could be the one... I know I should have called it off right then but I didn't. We spent the next 6 days happily enjoying each others company.... we did not play safe.

He lives a distance from me and had to go home yesterday. We have been in constant contact since he left....

Now here is my problems... and I really would appreciate some constructive feedback if possible.... but again like stated earlier I know I'm not in the right here....

I need to tell him about my status. He hasn't asked, for all I know he is + as well. He has had multiple unsafe encounters (he is very free with this information)...

I also know that if I CANNOT consider building a relationship with him based on a lie (even a lie of omission) and that it is NOT right for me not to tell him. But I also know that if I tell him he will feel betrayed and hurt and all of this will end and I REALLY don't want it too. For the 1st time in 12 years I feel special and cared for and loved (maybe... I don't know about the last one.. its to soon... even thought he already dropped the word... scary again...).

Half of me wants this whole thing to fizzle out (as many gay relationships do in a month...) but the other half knows that I honestly don't think it will. I've never felt something so real in my life... And I've been around the block a few times...

I am in complete and utter torment over this. I know that I could easily go tot the health dept, get a test and have them contact him anonymously... and I could do that tomorrow... he wouldn't know it was me, and he would go get tested etc... but if we continue to see each other, he doesn't want to play safe... so its either play unsafe, or don't play.

This was only supposed to be a hookup! UD for year with a very low risk to him (bottom here ... I know there are still risks but it is much lower risk for him... not no risk I understand...) Mr. Right isn't supposed to show up on A4A.....

I'm so confused about everything and my emotions are making it so hard... As I grow to really seriously care about this man, I also realize that I CANNOT cause any more unknowledgeable risk to him. I mean maybe I can rationalize 1 time exposure to myself and get over it but I'm not a psychopath... I just can't do that to him...

So now I'm stuck and I'm scared and back to being lonely... luckily because of the distance I am not going to see him for a few weeks so I can get my head right and figure this out, but I could really use some wisdom or advice...

Look I know I am in the wrong, and I know I need to correct it. I wouldn't be putting this out there if I thought otherwise... so please don't go crazy and think I'm a horrible person, I already feel like one....

Offline leatherman

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 10:19:34 PM »
Look I know I am in the wrong, and I know I need to correct it.
and there's your answer ;)

While I think it's very good you've put this out there to get help and support, I think you already know the answer to what you need to do. Even though you might not like everything I have to say, I would like to offer my opinion - and some advice, constructive advice, on your situation.

while I can understand your rationale for wanting companionship, for being UD, for being a bottom, for your friend having responsibility for his own health/status, to continue for 6 days having multiple bouts of unsafe sex... well, wow! IMHO that was really terrible behavior on your part.

May I also say one more thing? After a week, you are not in love. Oh, the early symptoms may be there; but love rarely happens that fast. You're just feeling lust, care and concern. I'm sure having human companionship like that, especially in the situation you've been in, gave you a great feeling of warmth, satisfaction and companionship. A lot of us have been alone for some time and can understand what you're feeling. But that isn't love. Not this soon. Besides, you already know you have not been entirely truthful, so you probably really don't have any idea if he is being untruthful about everything either - because you really haven't had an appropriate amount of time to even "know" this other person.

But you seem to agree with my opinion and think that your behavior has been bad, so my advice is to man up, do want needs to be done, and deal with the consequences. The sooner the better too, as none of this situation is going to go away. Its going to be tough, and it'll only get tougher as more time goes by; but wallowing in self pity or beating yourself up about the actions you already committed won't do anything for the situation. You need to tell your friend about your status, and see what happens next.

Just like I told my best friend's daughter who recently got pregnant at 16 (after I bitched about her stupidity of unprotected sex, having seen how AIDS killed "Uncle Jim", my late partner), that what's done is done and nothing will change that. You have to now focus on what has to be done to go forward and do what you need to do. Other people may chime in with other opinions; but I haven't told you anything that I don't tell other people in similar situations.

One very important note about this situation - if your new friend doesn't turn out to already be positive, or worse doesn't even know, please make sure you know where he should go and seriously encourage him to be tested at the appropriate time.

best wishes for you in this tough situation. I really do hope things work out without being too bad. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline tednlou2

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 11:50:52 PM »
Before telling him, I would find out the criminalization laws where you had sex.  There are so many criminal cases these days, from not disclosing.

If you choose to tell him, I wish you all the best that things work out, or things don't get messy.  If you choose to end it, I think telling him anonymously is a good idea.  He can choose to test, and maybe it will be a wake up for him, as well.  If he's a serial barebacker, like you say, then he has a decent chance of being poz already, regardless of being a top.  And, so many tops aren't truly exclusive tops anyway.  If he is already poz, I would hate for him to blame you. 

Let us know how it goes. 

Offline mpositive

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2013, 01:18:10 PM »
Here is what concerns me most.  You only care because you are interested in furthering a relationship with him.  The woman I contracted HIV did the same thing to me, that you are doing.  So yes, I will say it is indeed disgusting, disgraceful and a possible assault. 
Here's the thing, he had a right, which you ignored, to be told of the risk that you knowingly put him in. If, heaven forbid, you infected him, it would not be completely accidental.
We have this virus and we need to be responsible with it.  That means communicating it with anyone we are about to have relations with.
I had a lot of anger towards this woman and it flares up when I hear things like this.  You wrote this whole long thread as if someone should stand up and say "poor you, you are in such a dilemma, don't worry"  No....no no no...worry.....worry and make sure you never put anyone at risk without giving them the respect to take that risk upon themselves.  This is for a "hookup" or for something more serious.  Even a hookup is a human being.
So you pick up the phone, call this person and tell them.  You should not even be hesitating because there is a chance you just changed this person's life and the sooner they know that, the better.
Again, I am not one to go off the handle, but this is the kind of behavior that is unacceptable for a caring human being to act upon.
Go and do the right thing and then learn from it.
 

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2013, 02:05:33 PM »
As someone with an UD VL who was only botttoming anally, this really isn't about the chance of HIV transmission because the risk, if there was any, was roughly that of winning the lottery twice in a week.

However, I suspect that the guilt of having been fundamentally dishonest with him is messing with your head. What if this sudden and, as Leatherman stated, rather abrupt urge to be in a relationship with him stems not from love, but guilt? The two can be more similar than you'd think.

Just like sometimes we are angry at others for not assuming responsibility for OUR choices. Anger and guilt can also look a lot alike in the moment.

There's plenty of "blame" to go around, if you are into that thing. But I would think carefully about what, exactly, you want to accomplish here. As Ted mentioned, you might want to look into the (dreadful, harmful, and ill-conceived) criminalization laws in your area.  Your love/guilt combination might well be met with an equal, destructive anger/guilt combination - and it likely wouldn't end well for anyone.

Whether you tell the person you are positive is your choice, of course. You can anonymously inform him through the health department or other channels like

http://www.dontspreadit.com/

which would give the guy a heads up that he might want to rethink his sexual philosophy.


However, from your description of his attitude towards safer sex and his lack of concern to even ask the token question, it's highly likely that he's positive as well. For all you know, he's feeling guilty as well (or, more likely, he's OK with the Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Assume Positive stance that aggregates around online hookup sites. Which would be perfectly fine if it weren't for the equal DADT attitude from negative people who just fork over personal responsibility as soon as they get an instant message.)

You know the guy better than we do. We're all just bringing our own baggage here in replies.

But strictly for your own sake, I would start getting regularly tested for STDs. Syphilis has a three month window period, and there's a real fire-sale going in with antibiotic-resistance chlamydia and gonorrhea. It's way more likely to GET an STD from bottoming with an UD VL than it is to transmit HIV - and like HIV transmission, your partner might well not be aware he has anything.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline anniebc

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2013, 06:47:48 PM »
Avgguybz....I think you have been given some great advise from the guys here so there is nothing really more to add.

I do however have a question for mpositive...did you consent to having unsafe sex with this women?

Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline mecch

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2013, 09:16:12 PM »
So let me preface this with a little information and a few statements because I know that what I am about to write is going to probably make some people mad.

Nothing you wrote made me feel anger at you. Nor as judgemental as you are about yourself and as some people here seem to be about you.
I have had HIV for about 8 years and been on meds for about 3 years now. I have been long term UD. After diagnosis I was celibate for 5 years out of sheer fear and loathing of myself quite honestly.
could you clarify please?  I suppose I get the part of about self-loathing not making one feel sexy. What were you afraid of? Your own sexuality? Disclosing to others?  Fear of infecting others?  A lot of this post seems to be informed by a somewhat overdramatic fear that you put someone at risk.  He's a practiced barebacker, you say.... He knows the risks he takes....

Anyway a guy responded and we started talking and we decided to hook up. It was evident by his profile that he did not like to play safe, but he never asked me about status and I never did him either (I know this doesn't take away the responsibility, I just want to give a clear picture). So I went ahead and hooked up with him.. And that was all I was expecting to happen... but there was more... so much more...

I met him and we talked and talked and it turned into something... well a lot more than I was looking for or ever expected. I met him and I sat back and thought (after the 1st day...) this could be the one... I know I should have called it off right then but I didn't.


Wait, why should you have called it off? After 1 good day or the coming 6 good days together? I am confused. You both hit it off, and you think you should have called it off? Do you think you don't deserve to meet an exciting guy and have an adventure?


We spent the next 6 days happily enjoying each others company.... we did not play safe.

He lives a distance from me and had to go home yesterday. We have been in constant contact since he left....

Now here is my problems... and I really would appreciate some constructive feedback if possible.... but again like stated earlier I know I'm not in the right here....

I need to tell him about my status. He hasn't asked, for all I know he is + as well. He has had multiple unsafe encounters (he is very free with this information)...

I also know that if I CANNOT consider building a relationship with him based on a lie (even a lie of omission) and that it is NOT right for me not to tell him. But I also know that if I tell him he will feel betrayed and hurt and all of this will end and I REALLY don't want it too. For the 1st time in 12 years I feel special and cared for and loved (maybe... I don't know about the last one.. its to soon... even thought he already dropped the word... scary again...).
Yes dear of course you should have this talk...  But let's not imagine all sorts of worst case scenarios.  For example, why should you assume he will "feel betrayed and hurt and all of this will end" by your saying you are HIV+.  Again, you are both grown ups and you both did it, over days, the barebacking, and you know the risks.  So either he's HIV+.  Or he doesn't give a crap about std risks.  Or, he's just a bit confused and lonely like you, like a lot of us.  And he took the hot sex, and no questions, and the intimacy, as a priority over the reality of having "the talk".  Human. Voila.  Point is, as others have pointed out, too, yOu can't anticipate his reaction, just fess up your side, say you feel uncomfortable with the non-disclosure, and move on...

I do agree that it might be worth figuring out the criminal transmission side of things first, just to make an informed decision. 
Half of me wants this whole thing to fizzle out (as many gay relationships do in a month...) but the other half knows that I honestly don't think it will. I've never felt something so real in my life... And I've been around the block a few times...

I am in complete and utter torment over this. I know that I could easily go tot the health dept, get a test and have them contact him anonymously... and I could do that tomorrow... he wouldn't know it was me, and he would go get tested etc... but if we continue to see each other, he doesn't want to play safe... so its either play unsafe, or don't play.

This was only supposed to be a hookup! UD for year with a very low risk to him (bottom here ... I know there are still risks but it is much lower risk for him... not no risk I understand...) Mr. Right isn't supposed to show up on A4A.....
Sweetie, Mr. Right can show up anywhere.  Quite a few times you seem to be looking for a reason this thing is impossible or that you have majorly screwed up, but Im not seeing it.  Just deal frankly with the uneasy HIV and safe or unsafe play, going forward, and see if its going to happen between you two, or not. 

I think you have a pessimistic view about gay relationships...  You seem to be pessimistic about your own prospects, and also toss off some pessimistic views about how long gay relationships last.  Meanwhile, most of us here have had some satisfying ones....
I'm so confused about everything and my emotions are making it so hard... As I grow to really seriously care about this man, I also realize that I CANNOT cause any more unknowledgeable risk to him. I mean maybe I can rationalize 1 time exposure to myself and get over it but I'm not a psychopath... I just can't do that to him...

So now I'm stuck and I'm scared and back to being lonely... luckily because of the distance I am not going to see him for a few weeks so I can get my head right and figure this out, but I could really use some wisdom or advice...

Look I know I am in the wrong, and I know I need to correct it. I wouldn't be putting this out there if I thought otherwise... so please don't go crazy and think I'm a horrible person, I already feel like one....

You can feel like a "horrible person" but I don't see you that way.  The story you relate is so common, nothing special. We all navigate safe/unsafe sex, disclosure/nondisclosure.  And that's including HIV+ and HIV- negative people... 

I would prefer to keep my fingers crossed for you and encourage to go for Mr. A4A Mr. Right because why the hell not??  He seems like he's into you.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:21:07 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mpositive

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2013, 03:47:56 PM »
Annie, yes I did.  I have already accepted that mistake. That does not change anything however.   
In fact, having this virus, being more knowledgeable about it makes me even more responsible for my behavior, not less. 
So while I completely accept the fact that I had a choice of whether or not to use a condom, the person that knowingly carries the virus is even more at odds with morality.
You see, I took the risk upon myself....for myself and not for anyone else.
The other person put me at further risk, without my consent.
It's one thing to risk yourself, it is quite another to knowingly risk someone else. That's where I was going with this.....while I continue to blab blab.

Offline mecch

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2013, 07:33:33 PM »
It's one thing to risk yourself, it is quite another to knowingly risk someone else. That's where I was going with this.....while I continue to blab blab.

Don't get bogged down in the moral hierarchies and metaphysics of it all. Act. Tell your beau you are HIV+ cause that's the way you want it.  You'll discover how he deals with you, or doesn't.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline avgguybx

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2013, 11:08:43 PM »
Update... Well I did it, I told him.... it was a terrifying experience, but ultimately had a very happy ending... which was completely unexpected but very much made me happy.

Anyway I told him... after a barrage of messages telling him that I had to talk to him and that I wasn't sure how but needed to tell him something. Well I called him and he basically guessed exactly what I had to say. He was so supportive and basically said that we would get through it together... I should have had more faith in him, but you never know...

Anyway it prompted him to go get tested the next day... and well turns out that we are both in the same boat anyway. Although this is new for him and not for me, but I can help him through the early stages of emotions that I never had anyone to help me through... So now I get to be the supportive one which I'm more than happy to do...

To the one who was, obviously still angry at her partner... or x partner... Give it time, my partner infected me and never told me about it either... so I understand that anger and resentment that may be caused.. but you need to forgive and move forward with things.. I hope someday that is true for you as well and wish you the best of luck! But next time you respond to a post of someone asking for a little support because they were honestly scared to do something that they know they needed to do... you may want to consider being a tiny bit more supportive... People make mistakes, I made one... I knew I did, and I desired to fix it... I just needed a little outside support to do the right thing is all, and I knew that I needed it so I asked... because I wasn't going to get it anywhere else.... Might I also recommend that you never become a counselor or answer a suicide hotline as well.... I just don't think its a good profession for you....

Sufficient to say I did the right thing after all and it ended up better than I thought that it could... so for that I am eternally thankful... Thank you all for the kick in the pants and the support.

Offline Jeff G

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2013, 11:24:44 PM »
Mpositive  .... you can get your point across without insulting another member . You may want to consider not replying to threads like these until you can come in with support and understanding instead of baggage from your past that you haven't dealt with completely yet .
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 12:21:12 AM by Jeff G »

Offline tednlou2

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2013, 12:13:47 AM »
Avgguy,

The skeptic in me would wonder whether he already knew his status.  Of course, we just have the summary of events.  Was he shocked and anguished that he tested poz?  Did he wonder whether the sex with you was responsible for his infection?  From the summary, and not having more details, it sounds like he handled you being poz and his own poz status very well.  Again, you only gave a summary, and not the full details.  And, I shouldn't be such a big skeptic.   

In any event, I am so glad things went so well.  I am sorry that he tested poz, as well.  It's good everything is out on the table, and you both can pursue this possible relationship, without any secrets.  I wish the best for you both.  Hopefully, this will lead to a long, happy relationship, if that is what you both want. 

I know this must lift a lot of stress off your shoulders.

Ted

Offline Dachshund

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2013, 09:32:07 AM »

The other person put me at further risk, without my consent.


If you didn't use protection, the risk was consensual.

Offline Ann

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2013, 11:37:33 AM »
If you didn't use protection, the risk was consensual.

Exactly. To agree to unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of becoming infected with an STI, including but not limited to hiv.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mpositive

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 12:22:22 PM »
Jeff - I did not insult anyone. Don't make this into a "beat on the guy who does not agree with everyone" thread.

I hope to re-enforce to folks that you (and me) have a responsibility.  We have the knowledge others do not and therefore we should care about others.  It is more than a courtesy after all. I hope that any of you tell the person you are about to have sex with that you are positive.  Whether or not that person wears a condom initially, whether or not that person is a one night stand.  I believe it is crucial in helping reduce the spreading of HIV.  Mind you, I think the Hetero community is completely lacking in knowledge in this area, sadly.

I am glad the poster told his new partner, I know how hard that was.


Offline Ann

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 12:37:04 PM »

I hope to re-enforce to folks that you (and me) have a responsibility.


M, we all fully understand that WE have a responsibility.

However, OUR responsibility does NOT absolve an hiv negative person from THEIR responsibility. That's the point we're trying to make.

I was speaking about this issue earlier today with someone. I said, "It's a 50/50 thing - BOTH have a responsibility.

But he said "no, it's a 100/100 thing."

I have 100% responsibility for my actions (or lack of actions) and the other person has 100% responsibility for their actions (or lack of actions).

Simply put, I'm responsible for what I do and you're responsible for what you do.

In your particular case, M, you reneged on your responsibility to put a condom on, and she reneged on her responsibility to remind you that you should put one on. It's a two way street.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline mecch

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 03:01:58 PM »
The skeptic in me would wonder whether he already knew his status. 
Same feeling.  Pretty fast turnaround?  8)  But whatever, works out well for avgguybx.

avgguybx - congrats! You did it and quickly and good for you. You must be excited for what happens next.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline anniebc

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 04:49:35 PM »
Avgguy

Regardless of whether he knew his status or how fast the turnaround was, you did the right thing, you faced the the very thing you feared most and dealt with it, and that's a big step forward, I hope thing's continue to work out for you both, it really does help when you have good support.

Take care
Jan
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Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Jeff G

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  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: I never expected......
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 09:00:39 PM »
Here is what concerns me most.  You only care because you are interested in furthering a relationship with him.  The woman I contracted HIV did the same thing to me, that you are doing.  So yes, I will say it is indeed disgusting, disgraceful and a possible assault. 

Hi Mpositive . This is what I was referring to when I said you insulted a member because you haven't come to terms with excepting responsibility for your infection . Im not hating on you because we disagree , far from it because Im very happy you are member of the forum and we are able to have these civil discussions about things we may disagree on.

We are 30 years into the war on Aids , its not like there are any people in the western world who dosent know you can get HIV if you engage in unprotected sex . We alone as individuals have the power to put an end to new sexually transmitted HIV infections by taking responsibility for how we choose to have sex . Assigning percentages of responsibility for our sexual health is simply a way to not except the fact that we didn't live up to our responsibility's to our selves , its convenient and comfortable to give away part of that that blame and anger to somebody else even though its only human to make a mistake .

If I take 100% responsibility for my decision that led me to become HIV positive I only have myself to forgive and I know Im not a villain for making a mistake . I don't have to carry anger for others for my decisions and wont have to call them disgusting for making the same mistake I made .... and that's the mistake of not being 100% accountable for my actions .     

Offline mpositive

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Re: I never expected......
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2013, 12:06:05 PM »
Jeff,
After seeing what you just pointed out, you are right, that was a poor choice of words on my part.

Offline Jeff G

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  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: I never expected......
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2013, 12:13:30 PM »
Jeff,
After seeing what you just pointed out, you are right, that was a poor choice of words on my part.

Thanks , it means allot to me that you understand my motivation for speaking up . You are a valuable member here and I didn't want you to feel alienated by what I had to say . If we disagree it is what it is ... and whatever it is it isn't the end of the world LOL .

 


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