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Author Topic: Sequester madness  (Read 7265 times)

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Offline leatherman

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2013, 04:05:12 PM »
We must make some smart Defense cuts -- the current cuts aren't going to demolish our military -- the scare mongering from the politicians (Dems and Repubs), as well as the media is particularly insane in this area.
This reads like a false equivalency if you're implying that Dems scare monger about defense cuts. However, if you are discussing scare-mongering in a general sense, I sorta agree with you. Scare mongering about "Obama coming to take away all guns", "Obama is a dictator", "Current spending percentage is still increasing" are all very different things from the CDC scare mongering that 15k people may not have ADAP assistance, or that the middle class is disappearing as the top 1% Got 93% of Income Growth.

Some of those things are real scares and some are not. Comparing scares is a tricky thing. Comparing blame as one party has been compromising and the other has been obstructing is just not always possible. Making these comparisons lead to false equivalencies further obscuring the real truth and problems behind current issues.

pointing out a few examples:
We must make smart cuts...
the current cuts aren't going to demolish our military
cuts have already been made. Throughout Obama's administration cuts have already been made that America hasn't seen since after the Korean war (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/federal-reserve-economic-data-chart-real-government-spending-obama-recovery.php)

until the sequester, there really have been no defense cuts and defense spending may continue to increase even with the sequester (and hence why Obama was ready to veto any sequester package that excluded the military) (http://mercatus.org/publication/defense-spending-will-continue-grow-spite-automatic-cuts-set-bca  http://armscontrolcenter.org/issues/nuclearweapons/articles/defense_spending_since_2001/)

We must find more revenue -- particularly by cutting corporate welfare, and reworking our entire tax code.  We could probably lower tax rates and still increase revenue if this is done right.
lower which tax rates? Many corporations take so many loopholes that they don't actually pay the rates they should be currently paying. IMHO, tax rates could just be left alone; but  loopholes must be closed. then down the road, after that fix pays off, talk about "lowering" rates could be entertained.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline bocker3

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2013, 04:43:04 PM »
This false equivalency drives me crazy. What your saying Mike is pretty much what the President has proposed, a balanced approach. Please give me an example of where this mysterious "far left" is refusing to negotiate? The Republicans have categorically denied any more legislation that would include new revenue.

I'm not talking about the President -- I'm talking about Congress -- there is a reluctanct to even discuss touching SS by the Dem leadership.  Obama once put the change in calculation COLA raises on SS on the table -- Nancy Pelosi about blew an aneurysm.  Now he doesn't bring it up.

Also -- there is no "false equivalency" -- While the Tea Party may be far more strident -- there are "sacred cows" on all sides that people refuse to budge on.  Whenever I see "false equivalency" bantered about, it is a sign that people are unwilling to look at the situation with both eyes open.  I'm not saying the left and right are equally intransient -- but they both have their moments.  The fact that I agree, far, far more with the left -- does not negate the fact that the left MUST be willing to put everything on the table in order to start a negotiation.
Finally -- if you think that the Dems are not right now trying to do what the Repubs hoped to do a couple years back -- namely, make the other side look "bad" in order to win more seats in the next election -- then you are blind.  The Dems want to win the House in 2014 -- and won't hesitate to hold the nation hostage to make that happen.  That is, at the heart of it, the reason there is so much inaction in Washington.  No one wants to solve problems, they merely want to win elections. And YES -- there is equivalency there........

M
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2013, 04:50:14 PM »
This reads like a false equivalency if you're implying that Dems scare monger about defense cuts. However, if you are discussing scare-mongering in a general sense, I sorta agree with you. Scare mongering about "Obama coming to take away all guns", "Obama is a dictator", "Current spending percentage is still increasing" are all very different things from the CDC scare mongering that 15k people may not have ADAP assistance, or that the middle class is disappearing as the top 1% Got 93% of Income Growth.

Some of those things are real scares and some are not. Comparing scares is a tricky thing. Comparing blame as one party has been compromising and the other has been obstructing is just not always possible. Making these comparisons lead to false equivalencies further obscuring the real truth and problems behind current issues.

pointing out a few examples:cuts have already been made. Throughout Obama's administration cuts have already been made that America hasn't seen since after the Korean war (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/federal-reserve-economic-data-chart-real-government-spending-obama-recovery.php)

until the sequester, there really have been no defense cuts and defense spending may continue to increase even with the sequester (and hence why Obama was ready to veto any sequester package that excluded the military) (http://mercatus.org/publication/defense-spending-will-continue-grow-spite-automatic-cuts-set-bca  http://armscontrolcenter.org/issues/nuclearweapons/articles/defense_spending_since_2001/)
lower which tax rates? Many corporations take so many loopholes that they don't actually pay the rates they should be currently paying. IMHO, tax rates could just be left alone; but  loopholes must be closed. then down the road, after that fix pays off, talk about "lowering" rates could be entertained.

Again -- no false equivalency AT ALL -- the entire Virginia delegation is up in arms over the defense cuts -- Repubs and Dems.  Our Senators, Mark Warner and Tim Kaine (both Dems) are doing all they can to "protect" Virginia jobs from these defense cuts.

you are missing my main point -- demonizing the other side is why we are where we are.  Saying that 'my side is right and the other side is wrong/evil' will get us no where.  One can not negotiate by saying what is NOT possible -- you start with just about everything on the table and work from there.

As an aside -- you will NEVER, EVER get tax loopholes closed without adjusting rates down.  That is an example of "negotiating with no hope".  If you read what I wrote -- you could redo the tax code, cut out alot of the loopholes, deductions, etc, lower rates and STILL increase revenue.  That is how we might be able to get some progress. 

I don't have all the answers -- not even most or many -- it's about being open to really listening to the other side.  Not listening in order to respond, but listening in order to understand (even if you don't ever agree -- better understanding of the other side helps with meaningful negotiating).

Mike
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2013, 05:01:49 PM »
The Dems want to win the House in 2014 -- and won't hesitate to hold the nation hostage to make that happen.
wow. talk about false equivalency. :o

no single payer healthcare (the plan we got IS the republican plan), bush tax cuts mostly still intact (just a small part dismantled finally), war still continuing, Gitmo not closed. Remind us where the Dems aren't compromising and holding the nation hostage. (debt ceiling, fiscal cliff are Republicans holding things hostage. even the sequester was designed to force the Republicans to stop obstructing) Sticking up for the average citizen against the 1% and corporations NOT paying their fair in taxes is not holding anyone hostage but standing up for the rights of citizens to not be slaves of the rich.

and that's not even taking into account the voter disenfranchisement, insane rape analogies, abortion repealing laws and personal invasion laws, attempting to make laws based on religious beliefs, etc that only one party - the Republican party - is pushing, while the other party is attempting to bring more freedoms to Americans while implementing regulations so that banks and corps don't continue to rob us all blind.

Again -- no false equivalency AT ALL -- the entire Virginia delegation is up in arms over the defense cuts -- Repubs and Dems.
those defense cuts did not even come until the sequester required across the board cuts.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline leatherman

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2013, 05:08:13 PM »
you are missing my main point -- demonizing the other side is why we are where we are.  Saying that 'my side is right and the other side is wrong/evil' will get us no where.  One can not negotiate by saying what is NOT possible -- you start with just about everything on the table and work from there.
anyone that won't first admit that the Republicans have been obstructing government over the past few years (for sake of their political gain) nor admit that (while not perfect) the Democrats have made compromises is what keeps us from having a decent conversation about these issues.

I never called the Republicans evil but I can see the truth that they are wrong on some issues. Continuing to claim both sides have been equal in dealing with the situation is why we'll never get any where. the republicans have clearly NOT put everything on the table while Democrats have put most on the table (no one should put ALL because that doesn't reflect what a compromise should provide).
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline mitch777

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2013, 05:22:17 PM »
Mikie (leatherman),
One must acknowledge, recognize, and stand up for principles and beliefs.
Too ignore this basic part of politics is not realistic.
It would be great if we all had brilliant elected leaders that could rationally solve todays problems.
Alas, this is not the case.
If healthcare costs could be brought under control as a percentage of GDP, the economy would not be where it is today.
Which party is dead set against national health care and wants to solve the issue by cutting benefits?
Republicans.
Thank you Mikie!!! ;)
I agree with your "larger picture viewpoint"!
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2013, 06:20:39 PM »
I'm not talking about the President -- I'm talking about Congress -- there is a reluctanct to even discuss touching SS by the Dem leadership.  Obama once put the change in calculation COLA raises on SS on the table -- Nancy Pelosi about blew an aneurysm.  Now he doesn't bring it up.

Also -- there is no "false equivalency" -- While the Tea Party may be far more strident -- there are "sacred cows" on all sides that people refuse to budge on.  Whenever I see "false equivalency" bantered about, it is a sign that people are unwilling to look at the situation with both eyes open.  I'm not saying the left and right are equally intransient -- but they both have their moments.  The fact that I agree, far, far more with the left -- does not negate the fact that the left MUST be willing to put everything on the table in order to start a negotiation.
Finally -- if you think that the Dems are not right now trying to do what the Repubs hoped to do a couple years back -- namely, make the other side look "bad" in order to win more seats in the next election -- then you are blind.  The Dems want to win the House in 2014 -- and won't hesitate to hold the nation hostage to make that happen.  That is, at the heart of it, the reason there is so much inaction in Washington.  No one wants to solve problems, they merely want to win elections. And YES -- there is equivalency there........

M

See, that's the problem Mike. You come across as very strident when someone disagrees with you and you say they must be blind. How in the world does that make you any different than what you say you don't like about politicians? I see a false equivalency, you don't, that's politics. Obviously some agree with me, some agree with you, that's politics. However saying that the Democrats are holding the nation hostage is really a false equivalency. The Republicans control the house and can pass any piece of legislation they want with or without Nancy Pelosi. The Democrats control the senate but without the sixty votes necessary to get by a filibuster that the Republicans have used more than any time in history. Oh and there are plenty of moderate and conservative Democrats that would vote for changes to social security. Steny Hoyer has talked about this and he's in the democratic leadership. Oh and one more thing. You say you're not talking about President Obama and in the very next sentence you bring up President Obama. But I'm just being nit-picky. Don't forget on the last "fiscal cliff" bullshit, it would not have been resolved without democrats holding their noses and voting with enough Republicans to pass something. I know this will really set you off but lumping Social Security together with Medicaid/Medicare really is a false equivalency. But I'll leave that for another day.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2013, 06:25:52 PM »
perhaps I should repeat a story I told to Mitch to explain my "big picture view" and to talk about why closing loopholes is needed without equal reciprocation from cuts as has been suggested.

Recently the SC HIV/AIDS Care Crisis Task Force held an Advocacy Day. We had one-on-one visits with our state Legislators thanking them for their $4.3 million ADAP funding recurring for 3 more years, and discussing the need for medicaid Expansion. While my Senator didn't begrudge the state paying the ADAP funding that they put in the budget last year, he wondered why we didn't ask our local hospital (in Rock Hill SC, a suburb of Charlotte NC) for the money. He pointed out that our little local hospital - a non profit hospital - made a $650 million profit last year. That little local hospital could spend .6% (not 6% but .6) and pay for ADAP for the WHOLE state. Good point, Senator M. ;)

Better point (IMHO) from Consumer Advocate Leatherman was that if Senator M would have put better regulations into law (ie closed those loopholes), a NON-PROFIT hospital could have never made nearly 2/3rds of a billion dollars PROFIT and that money would have been in the hands of consumers (maybe just like Dach*) who could have paid for their own medications without government, hospital or any agency assistance.

It just seems evident in a country where every March the gas prices rise when the gas companies are ALREADY making billions in profit something is wrong. Every penny the gas rises each day is generating even MORE profits - at the expense of Americans who are already in deep water. and that's before whatever the sequester is going to bring us in sorrow and cuts. Closing loopholes first - before even talking about cuts or tax increases - would surely change the discussion we're having. We might not even be having this discussion, if people/corporations were actually paying taxes into the system as they should be based on a tax code without loopholes.

As it is, we're simply arguing over the remaining crumbs while every day our government is nearly deadlocked from obstructionists and allows corporations and banks to rape us of our hard earned dollars.


*I only bring up Dach because this is a thread he started, and to bring this back around to real people with real problems, not just the abstracts of politics and money. Those politics, regulations, and money affect real people and real people can and might suffer. What's the solution for them? Do we sit by while sequester takes away ADAP funding and HIV prevention testing money? Do any of us think that less money spent on HIV treatment or prevention is going to help us or the country?

Sorry for the TL;DR post LOL ;D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Online Joe K

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2013, 07:50:35 PM »
Again, this thread is a perfect micro-sphere of the climate in America.  Folks cannot separate the "facts" from the "feelings" and "political persuasion" and you wind up talking past each other.  I always thought the way to solve a problem, was to gather up as many folks as possible to increase your creative potential.  That if folks could agree on a goal, that attainment of that goal, would help temper any friction between people.

I sound like my father, but civil discourse in America is really pathetic.  Nobody can propose anything, without focus group testing the message first, because the quality of the proposal isn't as important as what folks think you are proposing.  It's all smoke and mirrors and it's very damaging to society.  I read many sites and the comments are not to be believed.

Americans actually accusing other Americans of the most heinous acts, with no sense of shared patriotism or even humanity in some cases.  Non-stop media coverage, cameras on every corner and any faux pas is broadcast to all of humanity, to do with it what they will.

I fear that Americans are at risk of losing their humanity and sense of being part of this great experiment.  Difference in opinion is one thing, but when you spend billions of dollars convincing one group of folks to not only fear, but hate another group of people, where does it stop?  Americans are at each others throats and for what? And that friction and loathing is slowly changing us, like in this thread.

Somehow, we lost the ability to separate the fact from feelings in issues and it makes communicating just that much harder.  Somehow, too many of us believe that when the other person is wrong, that also makes them somehow inferior.  It used to be that any idea was welcome to solve a problem.  Not so much any more.

Who needs to worrying about actually doing anything, as long as we make sure that any blame goes to the other side.

Joe

Offline mecch

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2013, 08:53:40 PM »
Um...
Vote Dem!
Fight for a fair standard of living, for everyone in a country that is incredibly rich!
Remind elected officials that too much money is going to too few people.  Unemployed, sick, poor -- how much suffering and destruction can a society stomach?  Remember, its a fucking rich country. 
Complete the circle - vote Dem!  Find and vote in more progressive Dems at that.

I believe there are Federal politicians still capable of cognitive dissonance.  As for HIV+ people, we are a somewhat marginalized group, so make sure your elected reps know exactly what you think of this RAT FUCK sequester madness.  Strong arguments are made with human interest stories AND statistics, not in painting the opponents as monsters or asses...  Tell your story and your community's stories to the elected official and ask, where is the fairness, and the compassion??  They need to do their jobs...

« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 08:58:06 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline OneTampa

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Offline bocker3

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2013, 10:37:15 PM »
See, that's the problem Mike. You come across as very strident when someone disagrees with you and you say they must be blind. How in the world does that make you any different than what you say you don't like about politicians? I see a false equivalency, you don't, that's politics. Obviously some agree with me, some agree with you, that's politics. However saying that the Democrats are holding the nation hostage is really a false equivalency. The Republicans control the house and can pass any piece of legislation they want with or without Nancy Pelosi. The Democrats control the senate but without the sixty votes necessary to get by a filibuster that the Republicans have used more than any time in history. Oh and there are plenty of moderate and conservative Democrats that would vote for changes to social security. Steny Hoyer has talked about this and he's in the democratic leadership. Oh and one more thing. You say you're not talking about President Obama and in the very next sentence you bring up President Obama. But I'm just being nit-picky. Don't forget on the last "fiscal cliff" bullshit, it would not have been resolved without democrats holding their noses and voting with enough Republicans to pass something. I know this will really set you off but lumping Social Security together with Medicaid/Medicare really is a false equivalency. But I'll leave that for another day.

Actually -- the only thing I really disagree with, is your stance that the Dems are not part of the problem in Washington.  I do think the Republicans are far more strident in their obstruction, but they are not alone.
Also -- when I said I wasn't talking about Obama, it was because you were pointing out that he proposed a balanced approach -- I agreed with that.  It is Congress that isn't quite as open about it and are tying Obama's hands when it comes to SS.  So, you see -- you are being "nit-picky" about something in which I agree with you.  This is what I mean when I say that it is difficult to get anywhere in political discourse, because folks are only looking for the differences, rather than the commonality.  If we keeping doing what we've done, we will keep getting what we've gotten.

It's funny -- I feel like I agree with 90%+ of what folks say here, but it's the 10% that gets the focus.

I know that the majority of folks in this forum tend to be farther left than I -- but I haven't voted for a Republican in a VERY long time (not since I lived in Mass. and voted for Weld) -- so we are closer, politically, than you seem to think.  I just believe that we all have to give and take to move foreward -- for the Dems, that means doing something to change the current trajectory of SS and Medicare (perhaps I shouldn't lump them together, but they do seem, from economists POV, to be where some focus is needed and are, for the most part, exempted from the sequester).  I say that even though I know it will effect me down the road -- but I'd rather have that effect than continue on the train wreck that is coming if we do nothing.

Anyway -- I feel I've expressed my points -- and I get yours -- even agree with the majority of them.  So, with that I'll let this one go.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2013, 11:36:09 PM »
Found an good article that sums up the differences between the parties, when it comes to spending and deficits. 

This paragraph nails it:

"I don't mean to suggest that Democrats are any better when it comes to the deficit, although they have a better case for saying so based on the contrasting fiscal records of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. The national debt belongs to both parties. But at least the Democrats don't go on Fox News day after day proclaiming how fiscally conservative they are, and organize tea parties to rant about deficits, without ever putting forward any plan for reducing them. Nor do they pretend that they have no responsibility whatsoever for projected deficits, at least half of which can be traced directly to Republican policies, according to Office of Management and Budget Director Peter Orszag."

http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/19/republican-budget-hypocrisy-health-care-opinions-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html


Offline Dachshund

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2013, 07:58:31 AM »
Actually -- the only thing I really disagree with, is your stance that the Dems are not part of the problem in Washington.  I do think the Republicans are far more strident in their obstruction, but they are not alone.
Also -- when I said I wasn't talking about Obama, it was because you were pointing out that he proposed a balanced approach -- I agreed with that.  It is Congress that isn't quite as open about it and are tying Obama's hands when it comes to SS.  So, you see -- you are being "nit-picky" about something in which I agree with you.  This is what I mean when I say that it is difficult to get anywhere in political discourse, because folks are only looking for the differences, rather than the commonality.  If we keeping doing what we've done, we will keep getting what we've gotten.

It's funny -- I feel like I agree with 90%+ of what folks say here, but it's the 10% that gets the focus.

I know that the majority of folks in this forum tend to be farther left than I -- but I haven't voted for a Republican in a VERY long time (not since I lived in Mass. and voted for Weld) -- so we are closer, politically, than you seem to think.  I just believe that we all have to give and take to move foreward -- for the Dems, that means doing something to change the current trajectory of SS and Medicare (perhaps I shouldn't lump them together, but they do seem, from economists POV, to be where some focus is needed and are, for the most part, exempted from the sequester).  I say that even though I know it will effect me down the road -- but I'd rather have that effect than continue on the train wreck that is coming if we do nothing.

Anyway -- I feel I've expressed my points -- and I get yours -- even agree with the majority of them.  So, with that I'll let this one go.

Mike

It could be worse, we could live in Switzerland. ;)

Offline mecch

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2013, 10:33:22 AM »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2013, 11:25:26 AM »
It could be worse, we could live in Switzerland. ;)
You won't hear any argument from me on that!!!!!
M
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
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Offline mecch

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2013, 11:34:02 AM »
Bash mecch at the expense of the Swiss???
Bash mecch and the Swiss together, because why not?
I'm not Swiss.  Switzerland does some things exceedingly well. Other things not.
Fail to see how Switzerland is related to anything here...
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline wolfter

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2013, 11:58:46 AM »
Based on population estimate, I'd guess there are about 300 million different opinions.  I've been staying away from the computer lately because of all the rage that is being spewed by both "sides". 

It'll always be difficult to achieve success when everything is reduced to 2 sides.  When politics is reduced to "Superbowl" status where you root for your team no matter what, there's little room or motivation support change.

Wolfie
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2013, 12:12:17 PM »
Let me play devil's advocate here for just a bit. There is something to be said for being passionate about your beliefs. Take for example marriage equality, which is being argued before the supreme court right now. Is there a squishy middle where one could reach a satisfactory consensus? Ban it, legalize it, or just let the individual states decide? How about a compromise that just accepts civil unions? If you wait for America to come to a consensus, you've got a long wait. Sometimes you have to scream and fight for your beliefs. That's democracy.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2013, 03:06:54 PM »
"The Devastating Impact of Sequestration on ADAP in the South"
http://nastad.org/docs/Sequestration-ADAP-South-Fact-Sheet-Final-Hill-v2-02-27-13.pdf
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As of June 2012, southern states accounted for 33 percent of all ADAP clients served; through sequestration, up to half of the clients that will lose ADAP services reside in southern states. States may be forced to disenroll clients currently served by ADAP due to a lack of other funding sources to mitigate the effects of federal budget cuts. Moreover, to reduce the burden of this impact on people already on ADAP, states may be unable to accommodate any new clients and, therefore, forced to close enrollment and establish waiting lists for these new clients.

Underfunding the Ryan White system of care, particularly ADAP, will only serve to exacerbate existing structural challenges (e.g., disproportionate impact of HIV on communities of color, greater poverty, lack of employment and educational opportunities, and lack of access to vital prevention, care, and treatment services, etc.). These are also states that, for the most part, have been opposed to the Affordable Care Act’s Medicaid expansion. If enacted, the expansion would provide coverage for the many people living with HIV in South who are currently uninsured.

"Sequestration, ADAP, and PLWHA in North Carolina"
http://dukeaidspolicyproject.com/2013/03/01/sequestration-adap-and-plwha-in-north-carolina/
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Specifically, in North Carolina, it is anticipated that 301-1,000 clients will be impacted.  This is disheartening news, particularly considering that North Carolina recently implemented a formulary increase to 300% of the federal poverty level (Source) and then “re-expand[ed] coverage to include medications for heart disease, Hepatitis C, mental illness, and other conditions that commonly accompany HIV” (Source).

In addition to ADAP cuts, North Carolina will not be expanding Medicaid (Source), which would “provide coverage for the many people living with HIV…who are currently uninsured.”  (Source)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2013, 03:22:41 PM »
Let me play devil's advocate here for just a bit. There is something to be said for being passionate about your beliefs. Take for example marriage equality, which is being argued before the supreme court right now. Is there a squishy middle where one could reach a satisfactory consensus? Ban it, legalize it, or just let the individual states decide? How about a compromise that just accepts civil unions? If you wait for America to come to a consensus, you've got a long wait. Sometimes you have to scream and fight for your beliefs. That's democracy.

Not to mention if you study Roman and Byzantine history politics have generally been nasty or nastier. Some people act like we should be sitting around Gran Gran's dining room table eating off doilies.

There's also ample erroneous information and 6th grade analysis in this thread which is why I can't be bothered. Pass me one of those cucumber sandwiches with the crust cut off. :-X
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline madbrain

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2013, 05:33:52 PM »
Better point (IMHO) from Consumer Advocate Leatherman was that if Senator M would have put better regulations into law (ie closed those loopholes), a NON-PROFIT hospital could have never made nearly 2/3rds of a billion dollars PROFIT and that money would have been in the hands of consumers (maybe just like Dach*) who could have paid for their own medications without government, hospital or any agency assistance.

Or barring that, simply tax the profits of all those so-called "non-profit" hospitals to pay for ADAP.
It is still the purview of government to help the citizens that re in need, not the private hospital, even non-profit. Citizens should not have to beg hospitals for free care.

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It just seems evident in a country where every March the gas prices rise when the gas companies are ALREADY making billions in profit something is wrong. Every penny the gas rises each day is generating even MORE profits - at the expense of Americans who are already in deep water.

There are things Americans can do about it, though. I I haven't filled up since October as I now drive a ridiculously cheap EV, a Nissan Leaf, due to the EV subsidies. It is powered by my renewable solar energy at home, also subsidized.

But then again, the price of gasoline is also very highly subsidized. In all other western countries it costs about twice as much.

Quote
Closing loopholes first - before even talking about cuts or tax increases - would surely change the discussion we're having. We might not even be having this discussion, if people/corporations were actually paying taxes into the system as they should be based on a tax code without loopholes.

Absolutely. Closing loopholes is a requirement. And probably simplifying this insane tax code we have.
And it should be done regardless of what the deficit is, and even if there was a surplus, IMO.
Effective US tax rates, both individual and corporate, are already some of the lowest in the western world and certainly do not need to come down.
If I could I would definitely vote for higher taxes. Over 66% of Californians just voted themselves a tax increase last november in the form of prop 30.

Quote
*I only bring up Dach because this is a thread he started, and to bring this back around to real people with real problems, not just the abstracts of politics and money. Those politics, regulations, and money affect real people and real people can and might suffer. What's the solution for them? Do we sit by while sequester takes away ADAP funding and HIV prevention testing money? Do any of us think that less money spent on HIV treatment or prevention is going to help us or the country?

Sorry for the TL;DR post LOL ;D

Sorry, but mine was a long off-topic post as well.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2013, 10:55:39 PM »
Not to mention if you study Roman and Byzantine history politics have generally been nasty or nastier. Some people act like we should be sitting around Gran Gran's dining room table eating off doilies.

There's also ample erroneous information and 6th grade analysis in this thread which is why I can't be bothered. Pass me one of those cucumber sandwiches with the crust cut off. :-X

Oh, I would love to have some tea and cucumber sandwiches with you, and discuss Roman and Byzantine politics.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »
On topic-- A friend sent me this.  Even with like-minded liberal friends, I will often ignore all the things they send me to read and watch.  I am glad I watched this.  While I knew the problem was bad, I was surprised how bad things really are.  My perception was way off from reality.  This lays out the problem in a way, that a 10 year-old could understand it. 

http://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM

Offline mitch777

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2013, 03:54:31 PM »
On topic-- A friend sent me this.  Even with like-minded liberal friends, I will often ignore all the things they send me to read and watch.  I am glad I watched this.  While I knew the problem was bad, I was surprised how bad things really are.  My perception was way off from reality.  This lays out the problem in a way, that a 10 year-old could understand it. 

http://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM
Great but frightening video!
I'm sad and mad and I'm going to yell out the window "I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!".

PS-Ted...
I think it may be time to change your avatar again. ;)
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2013, 04:03:15 PM »
Dire state of inequality, isn't it.

And yet, how to get Americans to live in the reality rather than their false impressions and their pipedreams.

If one tries the compare/contrast method, when one starts comparing the US wealth distribution to other countries, (it seems to me) one instantly loses about 50% of the population's attention...  Americans do NOT like being compared to other countries because this challenges too many delusions.. Or its just "not applicable" because any potential challenge to "the best way" could only come from a "socialist state", thus completely discredited as a model, and so on..... or what not....

What people can't deal with is conflicting myths and realities, which exist together.  In most countries, for that matter. 

America IS the land of opportunity.  But its also not, with many portions of the population fixed into a class.  There's been more class mobility in some European countries for quite some time.... 

The Horatio Alger story is compelling, motivating, occasionally true, but often just a fairy tale....

Americans do not want to hate our rich, probably not even our super rich.  But really, HOW MUCH pie should they get. ALL the pie??? 

While the general population might not be able to accept, let alone finesse postindustrial class rigidity, don't you think that the social engineers should be able to talk and make policy about these matters??  Meaning, for example, the two parties in federal government?  Everything seems blocked, and for many years now...   Meanwhile, a colossal giveaway of the nation's wealth to the very rich....   

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2013, 04:05:33 PM »
No Wall Street executive prosecuted for financial fraud....  That's on Obama...
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mitch777

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2013, 04:18:34 PM »
Americans have become blind to what has happened in the past 30 years.
I for one think comparisons between countries is frightening to our politicians and until we (and they) are able to acknowledge the wealth inequality the problem will turn into an economic disaster beyond repair.
And sooner than people realize.
Meanwhile...
The US stock market hits a record high today.
I think a market collapse will happen in the not to distant future.
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline mecch

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2013, 04:35:33 PM »
I give Obama credit for addressing class issues with Affordable Care....  And he succeeded!  Also, class politics were a big part of the last election.  And again Obama won, and some people were able to discuss class, but was it much of a sustained discussion, or just a lot of trolling and bitter, back and forths....  Freedom Fries! 
(I know that was years ago....but...)

I grew up fascinated by the Guilded Age, the mansions, the families, the economic history of that time.... 

Wealth inequality is worse now....

Warren Buffett, “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”




“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2013, 06:50:43 PM »
Great but frightening video!
I'm sad and mad and I'm going to yell out the window "I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!".

PS-Ted...
I think it may be time to change your avatar again. ;)

LOL!  Well, we are expecting a decent snow tonight.  I will change it after that. 

Offline mitch777

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Re: Sequester madness
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2013, 09:33:54 PM »
I give Obama credit for addressing class issues with Affordable Care....  And he succeeded!  Also, class politics were a big part of the last election.  And again Obama won, and some people were able to discuss class, but was it much of a sustained discussion, or just a lot of trolling and bitter, back and forths....  Freedom Fries! 
(I know that was years ago....but...)

I grew up fascinated by the Guilded Age, the mansions, the families, the economic history of that time.... 

Wealth inequality is worse now....

agree 100%

Warren Buffett, “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.
[/quote]

It couldn't have been said more clearly.
Thanks Warren. :)
Thanks Mecch. :)
LOL!  Well, we are expecting a decent snow tonight.  I will change it after that. 

Change it NOW, Before the snow hits!
Pleeeeazze, make it go away! :)
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

 


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