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Author Topic: Beautiful Disaster89  (Read 7414 times)

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Offline curious1here

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  • Posts: 29
Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2013, 08:44:25 AM »
I don't know if they have skyn condoms in USA but there aren't latex but feel like it without the taste x

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2013, 05:37:04 PM »
Jeff. I am aware that you are a Mod and I don't want to get in trouble. Yes, it is low risk but it's not impossible. The information I got was from the CDC, the Body and aidsmap, all stating about cuts in small cuts in the mouth, inflammation, you have a higher risk of contracting HIV. HIV is a complicated virus and each persons physiology is different. I personally think it's unwise to say it's good as impossible, no one can say for 100% that a person won't get infected through oral sex,  no one should have to go through this disease. I would be interested to read any studies you have (Links) on why you state this. Guaranteed, HIV negative people looking for information  read threads like this and should be give all the information unbiased.

Here's a chunk of the data. I'm sure others wil pile on.

CDC, AIDSMAP, and other aggregates are great starting places for information! But they are rarely corrected, rarely updated, and often simply incorrect.

CDC, for example, still lists kissing as a risk. And insertive fellatio and cunilingus, actually.


No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2013, 03:35:37 AM »
Those studies just reinforce that oral transmission happens, but believed to be rare.  And, that it is very difficult to study, because most people are not exclusively oral. 

Do we not have more studies?  Two of the references were about the same study.  When googling, a site called Medhelp created the most hits.  And, those were a member from these forums answering a question and referencing that study.  Actually, it was a verbatim list.  When I finally found the study, it was a very small study--less than 500 men.  The average age was around 50, which is usually a time when people are having less sex.  They said the median number of fellatio partners over 6 months was 3.  One of the other studies said while probably rare, mouth or genital ulcers and herpes viruses are believed to make infection more likely. 

Has there been a study that accounts for people newly infected, or otherwise with high viral loads?  With the couple studies, how many of the poz partners are taking ARV's and have very low or UD viral loads?  It just seems incredibly difficult to study, as most engage in more than oral and it is hard to study people who are newly infected with very high viral loads. 

Offline curious1here

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2013, 08:33:01 AM »
My friend is an escort / rent boy and expects me to have answers to this. I can't tell him the risk is zero even when guys don't cum in his mouth.... I think it's about time they do a much bigger study taking all things into account from ulcers to cum in mouth. Cause while most studies and promising even 2 studies where  a few men were infected can raise questions. I think we will all agree HIV via oral is low risk.... but in my opinion not zero risk.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 08:39:29 AM by curious1here »

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2013, 04:04:40 PM »
Those studies just reinforce that oral transmission happens, but believed to be rare.  And, that it is very difficult to study, because most people are not exclusively oral. 

Do we not have more studies?  Two of the references were about the same study.  When googling, a site called Medhelp created the most hits.  And, those were a member from these forums answering a question and referencing that study.  Actually, it was a verbatim list.  When I finally found the study, it was a very small study--less than 500 men.  The average age was around 50, which is usually a time when people are having less sex.  They said the median number of fellatio partners over 6 months was 3.  One of the other studies said while probably rare, mouth or genital ulcers and herpes viruses are believed to make infection more likely. 

Has there been a study that accounts for people newly infected, or otherwise with high viral loads?  With the couple studies, how many of the poz partners are taking ARV's and have very low or UD viral loads?  It just seems incredibly difficult to study, as most engage in more than oral and it is hard to study people who are newly infected with very high viral loads. 

To the bes tof my ability to ascertain there have only been three serodiscordant studies. The ten-year one in Spain and the five and three year ones in the US. The Romero study was Spain, and the two Page-Shafer studies were in the US.

None of them yielded a single incident of infection through oral sex. Ted, we've been through this dozens of times before, and I don't have any new information than when I had three years ago. If you are aware of more serodiscordant studies please let me know.

As far as Medhelp, they are utilizing patient report studies, which is all we HAD before HAART came out in 1995. One simply can't compare the standard for veracity between patient report-reliant studies and the studies which circumvented patient report.

Moreover, even using the patient report model indicts the notion of receptive fellatio as being risky, in that there is virtually NO documentation EVER of female patients reporting this as a mode of transmission.

Sorry Ted, the soft science numbers don't add up, and the data does. And again, we have had this discussion at least four times a year since you have been on the forums.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2013, 04:16:24 PM »
My friend is an escort / rent boy and expects me to have answers to this. I can't tell him the risk is zero even when guys don't cum in his mouth.... I think it's about time they do a much bigger study taking all things into account from ulcers to cum in mouth. Cause while most studies and promising even 2 studies where  a few men were infected can raise questions. I think we will all agree HIV via oral is low risk.... but in my opinion not zero risk.

There have been three serodiscorant studies. One ran for ten years, one for five, and one for three.

A condition of the study was that the partners used condoms for penetrative anal and vaginal sex, but no barrier at all for any oral activity. And there have been no infections traced to oral sex in any of the studies.

During the studies, the positive partners went through a myriad of circumstances, from being on meds and not, from having undetectable viral loads and having massive viral loads. The negative partners were just as varied.

Transmission through receptive fellatio, if it happens at all, must take an amount of unusual circumstances not able to be actively and ethically studied. I can see where someone who has meth mouth (google it) and manufactures essentially zero saliva could come into contact with someone who is recently infected and has a massive viral load, and perhaps an infection through those circumstances could ensue.

But I think our resources are much better served by getting people to wear condoms for anal and vaginal sex insofar as HIV prevention goes.

I base my opinion on the data.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dr.Strangelove

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2013, 05:44:07 PM »
I doubt that we will get much better data on the oral sex transmission sex in the future. The problem is that those studies rely on the self-reporting of the individuals involved. And self-reporting has a huge error bar attached.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2013, 05:53:31 PM »
I doubt that we will get much better data on the oral sex transmission sex in the future. The problem is that those studies rely on the self-reporting of the individuals involved. And self-reporting has a huge error bar attached.

.

That's why the serodiscordant couple studies were so engrossing. Having compensated for patient report bias where previous studies either did not or could not. And from reading Page-Shafer's discussion of the first of her rep studies and its origin, it seemed to be an extraordinary happenstance.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2013, 05:58:35 PM »
If oral sex transmission happened even half the amount that people on this forum lead you to believe it does, I often wonder why they're not demonstrating daily outside of Fauci's NIH offices.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2013, 01:53:15 AM »
I believe it is a very rare event.  I just don't see enough data for so many to have the "no way, no how, does not happen ever" mindset.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2013, 02:53:13 AM »
I believe it is a very rare event.  I just don't see enough data for so many to have the "no way, no how, does not happen ever" mindset.

And you will not see many of us thinking in absolutes either.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Joe K

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  • 30 Years Poz
Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2013, 09:17:24 PM »
I believe it is a very rare event.  I just don't see enough data for so many to have the "no way, no how, does not happen ever" mindset.

In the 30 years I've been poz, I've had dozens of folks claim to be infected via oral sex.  We get them all the time on these forums, but we have folks here who know the science and the science tells us that it just does not happen very often.  I would think that just through observation, folks would see that oral sex is not a common vector for infection, otherwise, hundreds of millions of folks who practice oral sex would be infected... and they are not.

What I often see, regarding folks who claim oral infection, is there are other factors that are either intentionally ignored or just too hard to face.  I get that, I really do.  These forums however, are here to provide the latest, greatest and peer-reviewed science because we want people to have the truth so they can make informed decisions.  It would be irresponsible for us to promote the idea that infection via oral is common or not extremely rare, when the science tells us no such thing.

Joe
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2013, 11:42:33 PM »
I totally get that.  But, there are people who say you absolutely cannot be infected via oral route.  And, some ridicule others for suggesting it could be possible in some situations--albeit very rare situations.

Offline Souledout

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  • Posts: 145
Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2013, 05:22:48 AM »
I totally get that.  But, there are people who say you absolutely cannot be infected via oral route.  And, some ridicule others for suggesting it could be possible in some situations--albeit very rare situations.

Especially when a new, recently diagnosed member turns up. This is the last thing they need when they come here for support during what is an incredibly difficult period in their lives.
Infection sometime April-August, no noticable seroconversion symptoms
Not currently on medication
13/09/12 CD4 672 (33%) VL <40 (diagnosis date)
18/09/12 CD4 ?               VL 43
27/09/12 CD4 ?               VL 127
19/11/12 CD4 676 (38%) VL 959
03/03/13 CD4 642 (32%) VL 291
04/07/13 CD4 791 (33%) VL 26,437 (active cold sore, tooth infection)
18/07/13 ------retest------VL 3704
18/11/13 CD4 802 (36%) VL 65

Offline mecch

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2013, 08:27:03 AM »
Especially when a new, recently diagnosed member turns up. This is the last thing they need when they come here for support during what is an incredibly difficult period in their lives.
If someone on Pozforums "ridicules" a newbie its probably accidental, or a poor choice of words, or a misunderstanding, or the pozmember doing it is a jerk.  In any event, its unfortunate. But its collateral damage to the main issue which is coming to terms with the facts.  Accepting the most likely truth of matters is often a key to living well with HIV....  It may be uncomfortable to hear the likely truth, the probable explanation of things. 

Sometimes you have to rip off a bandaid thats stuck, there's no alternative.

But I agree it shouldn't be done with ridicule and its too bad when one more thing to think about is heaped onto a person in turmoil.

Have a look through the "am I infected" threads once or twice and you can see the ignorance, fear, fetishes, obsessions, irrationality, stereotypes, prejudice, etc people carry around about HIV.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 08:30:58 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2013, 09:38:26 AM »
I totally get that.  But, there are people who say you absolutely cannot be infected via oral route.  And, some ridicule others for suggesting it could be possible in some situations--albeit very rare situations.

Ted, is this the best possible forum to have this conversation? Start one in LIVING WITH, so as not to further hijack the purpose of both this thread and this part of the forum, which is to provide support and information. Squabbling about oral infection here provides little support to the OP, and puts me in the awkward position of defending scientific information that has been thoroughly discussed - and with YOU - for the five or so years since it has been made part of the LESSONS here.

And no one that I am aware of is saying that anything is impossible. That's not scientifically valid. I will say, however, that the circumstances around which HIV can be transmitted through receptive fellatio have yet to be ascertained outside the realm of theory, since no study that doesn't rely on anecdotal report has ever turned up such an infection.

The reason I try to keep discussions of this sort corralled in LIVING WITH is because here especially, in JUST TESTED, people are far too raw and often far too frightened to endure a side discussion, however relevant, which disrupts their paradigm. That's why I tend to be less active here, and more aggressive in my scientific stances over there. This part of the forum was designed for a reason - to give newly tested people a safe place before they dive into the learning curve.

As far as ridicule goes, report it when you see it. Don't engage, report.


Remember, whatever you think of someone here, chances are they are going through something that would likely flatten you.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Souledout

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2013, 07:04:05 AM »

Sometimes you have to rip off a bandaid thats stuck, there's no alternative.


Or you could be a bit more sensitive and let them slowly peel the bandaid off themselves.

Infection sometime April-August, no noticable seroconversion symptoms
Not currently on medication
13/09/12 CD4 672 (33%) VL <40 (diagnosis date)
18/09/12 CD4 ?               VL 43
27/09/12 CD4 ?               VL 127
19/11/12 CD4 676 (38%) VL 959
03/03/13 CD4 642 (32%) VL 291
04/07/13 CD4 791 (33%) VL 26,437 (active cold sore, tooth infection)
18/07/13 ------retest------VL 3704
18/11/13 CD4 802 (36%) VL 65

Offline msavoy

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Re: Beautiful Disaster89
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2013, 04:08:12 PM »
I'm taking part in a study for newly infected people as we speak, and the nurse who is in charge of taking my blood said that in the 20 years that she's been doing HIV research that she's encountered 2 other people (plus myself) who have contracted the virus through oral sex.  She said that it is very very rare (obviously she's only seen it 3 times in 20 years) but it's possible.  Like some of you have already said on here, she said, you'd need the perfect conditions to all come together at the same time.  Unfortunately for some of us, that has happened. 

What I believe happened in my situation was that my immune system was already very much compromised.  I had a huge mold exposure back in 2008 when I moved into a new apartment.  I became very sick and had no idea what was wrong with me.  The doctors did tons of tests (including many hiv tests) and couldn't find anything wrong with me.  I went from being an extremely healthy 28 year old guy going to the gym 5 days a week to not being able to get out of bed in the morning. 

Eventually someone tipped me off it could be my environment making me sick and sure enough, I had a mold test done and the place was infested (came to find out that there had been extensive water damage in the building 2 years before I moved in).  I immediately moved out and my health began to improve.

Anyway, since this exposure I have never been the same health wise.  Constantly sick, brain fog, dizziness, new food intolerances, you name it.  I stopped going to the doctors because everytime I went they could never find anything wrong with me. They'd always order an hiv test, and I would roll my eyes at them because everytime they did it, it would come back negative.

Anyway I beleive this reduced immunity highly contributed to me catching HIV.  If you're immune system is functioning properly I think that your body is able to kill the virus right away, even if it does enter your system.  But if you immune system is compromised, which I know mine is, then I believe the virus has a much better chance of getting established in your body.

I don't want to argue whether or not it's possible to catch HIV through oral sex, I just want to say that I am living proof that it can happen and I beleive it does happen under the most unfortunate circumstances.

That being said, knowing what I know now, would I have started using condoms when performing oral sex....I don't think so.  It's kind of like when you go skydiving... you know there is a very small risk that something could and can go wrong but you do it anyway.
Just my two cents for what it's worth.
Mark 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:17:36 PM by msavoy »

 


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