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Author Topic: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship  (Read 5158 times)

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Offline beautyface

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Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« on: February 21, 2013, 06:44:45 PM »
Hi All,

First, I'm so glad this forum exists!  I am in my 30s and I have recently embarked on my first relationship with a HIV positive fellow.  I am an HIV negative gay male.  I guess I'm writing for support.

My manfriend was diagnosed last fall.  He is still adjusting to being positive.  He started treatment two days ago, in part due to my urging him, but he was also thinking about it.  I care for him sooo much, I want to be with him more than anything, but I am conflicted lately.

At first, I thought I could handle this.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I thought that treatment today being what it is that I could mentally get past his status.  I don't know anymore.  But I do love him, I already love him so much.  I just want to make him happy and take all his pain away.  I wish I could be with him and not place myself in any risk at the same time, but I know that would be impossible, there is always some level of risk.  How do I overcome my fears and feel comfortable in this relationship, any words of advice?

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 07:02:45 PM »
Have you considered counseling? From your tenure in the AM I INFECTED forum it's oretty obvious you have an ongoing and irrational fear or HIV.

If, after over a year as a member of the forums, you are still freaking out about your boyfriend's tears, then this is a real problem for both of you.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline beautyface

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 07:21:14 PM »
Perhaps you're right.  Perhaps its best that I move on with my life.

Offline texaninnyc87

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »
Getting him on meds is the best way to protect yourself. Once he is undetectable, the risk of him transmitting it to you is very small, add condoms into the mix and its almost nothing!
Dxd: 9/11/12
Blot confirmed: 11/12
12/12 cd4: 280 (20%) vl: 129,000
1/13 $tribild
2/13 cd4: 350 (26%) vl: 80
4/13 cd4: 510 (29%) vl:: 35
6/13cd4 350 (31%) vl: 21
9/13 cd4 492 (30%) vl: ud
12/13 cd4 846 (36%) vl: 100
1/14 cd4 480 (31%) vl: UD
3/14 cd4 650 (33%) vl: UD
6/14 cd4 410 (35%) vl: UD
9/14 cd4 439 (38%) vl: UD

Offline mecch

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 08:00:27 PM »
An HIV+ person should go on HAART when he/she decides to under the care and advice of a doctor.
Not because a partner is ignorant about the risks of protected sex, can't live with miniscule risks, has fear and obsession about HIV, and pushes the person to go on HAART.

So: "Getting him on meds is the best way to protect yourself."  not.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 08:52:23 PM »
Getting him on meds is the best way to protect yourself. Once he is undetectable, the risk of him transmitting it to you is very small, add condoms into the mix and its almost nothing!

Sadly, the OP's fear of HIV transcends this logic. I hope he addresses those fears with a professional therapist, regardless of his choices regarding the relationship. If the OP is concerned about tears, and if over a year of participation in the AM I INFECTED forum cannot allay that sort of fear, then I submit that bring relieved thanks to viral load information is pretty far down on the list of possibilities.

Seems like torture for the both of them so long as this irrational fear persists. And one thing I keep learning from AM I INFECTED is that irrational fears are unswayed by rational rebuttal.

I certainly hope that the OP gets the help he needs. It must be terrible, living in fear.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline mitch777

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 09:06:08 PM »
Sadly, the OP's fear of HIV transcends this logic. I hope he addresses those fears with a professional therapist, regardless of his choices regarding the relationship. If the OP is concerned about tears, and if over a year of participation in the AM I INFECTED forum cannot allay that sort of fear, then I submit that bring relieved thanks to viral load information is pretty far down on the list of possibilities.

Seems like torture for the both of them so long as this irrational fear persists. And one thing I keep learning from AM I INFECTED is that irrational fears are unswayed by rational rebuttal.

I certainly hope that the OP gets the help he needs. It must be terrible, living in fear.
great advice ^ but would aslo like to add that after reading this quote:
Perhaps you're right.  Perhaps its best that I move on with my life.
"moving on in your life" could include facing your fears.

I have been HIV+ for 30+ years and have been "married" to my partner (HIV-) for 18+ years.
Just sayin' your heart counts for sumpin'. ;)
32 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline beautyface

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 02:10:09 AM »
One thing I absolutely hate about this forum is how sometimes folks bring up unrelated things you have posted about in the distant past.  I truly fail to see how its relevant.  I do and have acknowledged that I have an HIV anxiety disorder more than likely.  I embarked on this relationship with the best of intentions, hoping I had outgrown or quelled my irrational thoughts.  But the bottom line is this: My HIV negative status is mine alone to protect.  I am accountable to myself.  For this and other unrelated reasons, this relationship is not the right fit for me.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 02:42:34 AM »
One thing I absolutely hate about this forum is how sometimes folks bring up unrelated things you have posted about in the distant past.  I truly fail to see how its relevant.  I do and have acknowledged that I have an HIV anxiety disorder more than likely.  I embarked on this relationship with the best of intentions, hoping I had outgrown or quelled my irrational thoughts.  But the bottom line is this: My HIV negative status is mine alone to protect.  I am accountable to myself.  For this and other unrelated reasons, this relationship is not the right fit for me.

Yes. But you posted about your fears about tears yesterday. That is not the distant past, nor is it irrelevant.

*modified to add:

How very dare you. Your partner was weeping over the crushing reality that starting meds can bring down om a person. You post here wondering if those tears could infect you. And you wonder why I think you are a bad source of support for this person?

And then, just because, you try to turn it around and make it like you have been bullied or something? THAT is what you hate about these forums? I wold wager that the facts about HIV transmission would trump that, since you seem to think that your boyfriend's damned TEARS would be infectious, despite having been a posting member of these forums for a whole goddamned year.

Boyfriend fail on you.

I was actually trying to be NICE. But since you hate the fact that I am OBLIGATED to know your posting history, let me go all out. You are not at all equipped to handle an HIV positive partner. You have issues that you have refused to address, despite being privy to the depth and breadth of reliable HIV information AND the understanding that your mental disorder keeps you from assimilating that information. And to presumably avoid paying a subscription fee for the AM I FORUM, you post here.

Well guess what. I post here too. So does anyone else. And like anyone here, I have access to your posting history.

Your face, due to your screen name, might indeed be a thing of beauty. But your insides, illuminated by your last post here, tell a different story. I recommend that you repair your damage before embarking in a relationship with another damaged person. And get this, if nothing else: We are each of us damaged.

The fact that you said that this is something you "hate" about the forums implies that you have read WAY more than you have posted. If this is the case, why did you possibly expect a different reaction? You have dealt with a loved one's natural reaction to a difficult situation in a very bad way. Sorry that it hurts to be called on it.




« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 03:12:32 AM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline beautyface

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 04:32:29 AM »
Response to jkinatl2:

First, you do not know me, you think you know me.  Second, your posts are riddled with assumptions you have amalgamated from years of observations, some valid, about users of these forms, and in a truly epic fail attempted to apply them to yours truly.  You are correct when you say that I seem to read a lot here; I have, in particular your vitriol.

I will not quarrel with you, it is superfluous and serves no logical purpose.  I feel sorry for you, you see everything from your positive vantage point.  You lack a frame of negative reference.  I do not care that you think I am a bad person, I think you are a nasty judgmental one.  You know nothing about me.  Period. 

You were not there, you do not know how I consoled my friend.  It is more complicated than it appears, my manfriend is "terrified" of infecting me, and I have done nothing to make him feel that way.  I have kept my fears to myself and supported him as he tries to process this.  Am I concerned about protecting my negative status?  Absolutely I am.  Should I feel ashamed or the need to defend that?  Absolutely not.  There you brought it and bring it.  There's a difference.  I wish you the healing you so clearly need.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 04:34:25 AM by beautyface »

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2013, 05:07:06 AM »
Response to jkinatl2:

First, you do not know me, you think you know me.  Second, your posts are riddled with assumptions you have amalgamated from years of observations, some valid, about users of these forms, and in a truly epic fail attempted to apply them to yours truly.  You are correct when you say that I seem to read a lot here; I have, in particular your vitriol.

I will not quarrel with you, it is superfluous and serves no logical purpose.  I feel sorry for you, you see everything from your positive vantage point.  You lack a frame of negative reference.  I do not care that you think I am a bad person, I think you are a nasty judgmental one.  You know nothing about me.  Period. 

You were not there, you do not know how I consoled my friend.  It is more complicated than it appears, my manfriend is "terrified" of infecting me, and I have done nothing to make him feel that way.  I have kept my fears to myself and supported him as he tries to process this.  Am I concerned about protecting my negative status?  Absolutely I am.  Should I feel ashamed or the need to defend that?  Absolutely not.  There you brought it and bring it.  There's a difference.  I wish you the healing you so clearly need.

You came here worried, after over a year on these forums, that TEARS could infect you.

I do not think you are a bad person. I think you need to tend to your own wounds however. Your ongoing irrational fear of HIV is the one I posit to be paramount, so far as I can discern.

And the rest of your posts/animosity towards me in particular is telling.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline mecch

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 11:57:03 AM »
One thing I absolutely hate about this forum is how sometimes folks bring up unrelated things you have posted about in the distant past.  I truly fail to see how its relevant.  I do and have acknowledged that I have an HIV anxiety disorder more than likely.  I embarked on this relationship with the best of intentions, hoping I had outgrown or quelled my irrational thoughts.  But the bottom line is this: My HIV negative status is mine alone to protect.  I am accountable to myself.  For this and other unrelated reasons, this relationship is not the right fit for me.

My post was to texaninnyc87. Surely his heart is in the right place but his words were not a good rationale for going on HAART.  Not the primary reasons people go on HAART, at least....

Plus, he was saying this to you, and you seem to be quite worried and also distracted by HIV.. So again, just seemed like a bad idea.. 

You're right. Nobody here really knows you.  If you can have a complete relationship with an HIV+ person, which included lots of comfort, security, relaxed feeling, etc etc, and put HIV into its proper little box, then congratulations. 

If you can't really get over the fear.... That's your problem.  It was Texan who made this recommendation - oh, you'll DEFINITELY be low risk if your lover is on HAART..   But actually, just a 5 dollar box of condoms does the same, and no chemistry involved for either person.

A week ago there was a person on this forum, in magnetic relationship, who was wondering if he should go on TRUVADA so he could suck his undetectable boyfriend's dick, and have protected intercourse.   WTF?

Its gets my back up if people can't chill and be grounded about their sex lives with HIV+ people.  Jumping through hoops, needless overkill on the "protection".  Endless anxiety.  Misinformation...   

Know the facts, decide your practices, and move on to the meat of the relation.   
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 12:00:08 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline beautyface

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 01:22:57 PM »
Response to Mecch:

I was replying above only to jkinatl2's comments. 

I know it is not fair to stay in this relationship any longer.  I do not believe I could bring myself to have sex with this man at this point, and he is very hesitant to do so with me, he is "terrified" of infecting me.  So you see, it is more complex than my original post alluded to. 

There are other reasons too, not HIV related, that would rule out this relationship.  I do want to say I love him very much, and if we could work the other things out I'd be willing to stay.  Sadly, just too much going on.

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 02:44:22 PM »
One thing I absolutely hate about this forum is how sometimes folks bring up unrelated things you have posted about in the distant past.  I truly fail to see how its relevant.  I do and have acknowledged that I have an HIV anxiety disorder more than likely.  I embarked on this relationship with the best of intentions, hoping I had outgrown or quelled my irrational thoughts.  But the bottom line is this: My HIV negative status is mine alone to protect.  I am accountable to myself.  For this and other unrelated reasons, this relationship is not the right fit for me.

I wont stop you or suggest you not post in the Someone I care about forum at the moment but your posting history on this forum is relevant to this topic . The fact is , your fear of HIV in the past is still something you are dealing with today .

If you are worried about protecting yourself from HIV then its best dealt with in the AM I Infected forum .
Its really too much for you to ask us be supportive if your fears are unwarranted fears of contracting HIV because you were given advice about that in your other thread . If you break up with your man that you claim to love because of your fear of HIV than you need to get counseling or see a therapist , there really isn't more we can do for you other than offer these simple truths .   

Offline anniebc

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 03:43:19 PM »
.

If you are worried about protecting yourself from HIV then its best dealt with in the AM I Infected forum .
 

I'm sorry, but from what I have read the only one he seems to care about is himself, and like you suggested he should probably be over in the AM I forum, not here getting free advise because he has a fear of HIV.

I care more about the *boyfriend* than he does, he needs support and is not getting it from this guy called Beautyface, I hope he (the Boyfriend) realises that all the negativity coming from Beautyface is not good for him and he leaves this man, I really hope he moves on and finds the support he needs and deserves

Jan
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 03:45:54 PM by anniebc »
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline magneticnegative26

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 04:57:50 PM »
This is in response to Mecch bringing up my previous post.

Look, my boyfriend was diagnosed six months ago.  He's been UD for a couple of months.  We had unprotected sex before his diagnosis.  I have been going to see his disease specialist, who suggested that we use a condom for oral sex, and prescribed me Truvada given our situation.

I wasn't over-reacting, and I found that the advice that jkinatl2 gave me eased my fears much more than your suggestions that I was overly fearful and hyperbolic.  All I wanted was facts, to support my supposition against what a practicing doctor in the HIV community for twenty years told me.  And that's what I got.

You don't need to attack me, or put me in the same category, as the OP here.  I've been happily living with my boyfriend with HIV for six months, and will continue to do so for a long time.  Part of my reason for posting is to show him these studies so that he can get over his fear of infecting me, which is probably stronger than my fear of being infected.

Finally, in my original post I asked about Truvada in the context of eventually having unprotected sex - again, something that jkinatl2 reassured me (and this was after another poster told me that I was playing with fire). 

I think from your position there is a clear way of understanding these, but I promise you that the advice - from the CDC (very conservative) to the AHF to these forums - actually does vary considerably.

So a little less judgment toward those newly dealing with this, okay?

Offline mecch

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 06:27:44 PM »
This is in response to Mecch bringing up my previous post.

Look, my boyfriend was diagnosed six months ago.  He's been UD for a couple of months.  We had unprotected sex before his diagnosis.  I have been going to see his disease specialist, who suggested that we use a condom for oral sex, and prescribed me Truvada given our situation.


Ok sorry if I have misread your situation.
Sounds to me like you are saying, that your boyfriend is undetectable, has been for months, and his ID specialist prescribed you Truvada - exactly when, and for what reason?

A) Extra protection, like the oral sex with condoms, thus extra protection to continue having protected sex?  With an HIV+ undetectable partner.

B) Or, to start having unprotected sex. 

Two different situations. 

So, you're now taking that Truvada, or not?

I understood A.  Which I consider overkill.  But obviously Im not even a doctor!! Who cares what I think.

f its B, then, yep, it makes sense to me...

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 06:29:34 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 06:36:36 PM »
A is absolutely overkill.

B has scientific merit, but IMHO it depends on your preferred positions during penetrative sex - at least until followup studies are published. Then again, I am a little conservative about that sort of stuff.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline mecch

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 06:39:00 PM »
It was pretty confusing

"I feel like I have two vastly different responses, however, and could really use the input of others.  Would you say I'm playing with fire if I'm on Truvada, he's on Atripla and undetectable, we have protected sex, and I occasionally suck his dick after he's wiped all of his cum off of it?

That's basically where we are now... (well, I'm about to go on Atripla, so I've been sucking his dick after he's wiped off cum, but he is UD)"
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 06:52:20 PM »
It was pretty confusing

"I feel like I have two vastly different responses, however, and could really use the input of others.  Would you say I'm playing with fire if I'm on Truvada, he's on Atripla and undetectable, we have protected sex, and I occasionally suck his dick after he's wiped all of his cum off of it?

That's basically where we are now... (well, I'm about to go on Atripla, so I've been sucking his dick after he's wiped off cum, but he is UD)"

As impossibly rare as oral transmission is under any circumstances, I submit that both the scenarios presented are way over the top. Truvada for oral sex? Truvada for oral sex without any contact with ejaculate?

An expensive and potentially dangerous drug for that is absolutely not recommended. Truvada for unprotected receptive anal sex I can understand, but yes, that is WAAAY too much. I can't imagine a positive partner not eventually growing weary of that level of paranoia.

I hope that the OP works with his therapist and comes to terms with his ongoing phobia regarding HIV. The stress on both parties seems really extreme.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 07:01:14 PM »


That's basically where we are now... (well, I'm about to go on Atripla, so I've been sucking his dick after he's wiped off cum, but he is UD)"

I think the problem they are having with mecch is the condescending manner in which he responds to them. It doesn't help them, it doesn't help JK and it serves no purpose. He should be called out on it, and I just did.

Offline magneticnegative26

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 07:23:11 PM »
First, Mecch: yes, I can see how that's confusing, since when I wrote Atripla that second time, I meant Truvada...  though my issue with your post remains, since that confusion wasn't the source of your statement.

Jkinatl2: I don't think I'm exhibiting any abundant phobias.  I followed the advice that our doctor gave us. He said to use protection for EVERYTHING, including oral sex, and he's worked with the AHF for twenty years.  He also prescribed me Truvada, because he felt that I was at risk, and PREP is an option for serodiscordant couples.  When I got a call from the CDC, they said the same thing - condoms for everything, including oral sex.

One of the explicit purposes of these forums is stated on every page: "The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician."

I was looking for a complement to that information.

I came to this forum because I was confused and originally asking about risks, even with Truvada, as my doctor prescribed.  I want my boyfriend to come in my mouth, and eventually maybe have bareback sex again (I bottom) - it seemed, from our doctor's perspective, that this would be a big risk, even on Truvada.

I was just seeking confirmation that our HIV specialist was overdoing it (which you, jkinatl2, eventually provided), until another poster told me that I was playing with fire, which is why I said "I feel like I have two vastly different responses."  You might have a lot of experience with studies, and dealing with this disease, but you're presumptuous in how much knowledge others have, and your conclusions that our paranoia necessitates therapy and will try the other partner are really insensitive.  Now, I feel awful - I was hoping to find a warm and welcoming community on this forum, but instead I just find judgment again.  I was explicitly asking (NOTE: ASKING for advice, not PROCLAIMING that I am certain it is necessary) if what we were doing is safe, and if I would be safe if I were on Truvada.

And, for the record, my positive partner is the one pushing me to do these things - so don't presume that he's going to grow weary of MY level of paranoia, since it's not coming from me - really, it's coming from our doctor's advice.

Finally, to be totally clear, I'm not currently on Truvada.  I was on it for a couple of months and then lost my health insurance, but I have my health insurance again and have a prescription to go back on it.  We've been wearing condoms, and I've been swallowing his cum, and I'm not really convinced it's worth it, even though our doctor thinks I should.  It is a decision that many monogamous serodiscordant couples make (specifically so that they can go bareback), so don't make me feel like I'm really really extreme.

There are several far more paranoid people on these forums to direct your energies toward, though my ultimate point is that I think your tactic of shaming them as overly sensitive and paranoid and in need of therapy is ultimately unproductive.

Offline magneticnegative26

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 07:31:35 PM »
"I hope that the OP works with his therapist and comes to terms with his ongoing phobia regarding HIV. The stress on both parties seems really extreme."

Jkintal2, if this was directed toward beautyface, and not me, then I made a mistake in taking that specific part personally, though my other points still stand and I still think that this tactic is ultimately unproductive. 

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 09:50:35 PM »

"I hope that the OP works with his therapist and comes to terms with his ongoing phobia regarding HIV. The stress on both parties seems really extreme."

Jkintal2, if this was directed toward beautyface, and not me, then I made a mistake in taking that specific part personally, though my other points still stand and I still think that this tactic is ultimately unproductive. 
[/quote]

I was indeed, though when a person has a history of irrational fear regarding HIV, then I would direct that comment - which was not meant as snark or irreverent at all - to them as well. Life is simply too short and too wonderful to spend any of it locked inside a prison of fear.

You said:

I came to this forum because I was confused and originally asking about risks, even with Truvada, as my doctor prescribed.  I want my boyfriend to come in my mouth, and eventually maybe have bareback sex again (I bottom) - it seemed, from our doctor's perspective, that this would be a big risk, even on Truvada.

This is absolutely incorrect science. Absolutely! I don't know how many different ways to communicate that. Your BF is UD, you would be on Truvada. That's safer even than condoms. It's a perfect storm of safe. All the science backs this up.

The CDC also cautions against open-mouthed kissing, by the way - an act which has NEVER been documented to transmit HIV.

I get flustered sometimes when I am asked to account for the CDC and other entities. They are extraordinarily, criminally conservative and in the case of the CDC, biased thanks to governmental intervention. As someone with AIDS, I stopped using those entities for a confirmed source a decade ago - to save my OWN life. Instead, I sit down with an intellectual steak knife and read scientific journals and then read analysis of them by esteemed researchers.

I am sorry you think I am shaming people. This site provides a safe space for HIV positive people. HIV negative people are allowed here as a courtesy, and in the case of the AM I INFECTED forum, to prevent harassment of HIV positive persons by the Worried Well. Also, not everyone with an HIV diagnosis is automatically imbued with the most up to date information. I have made HIV transmission theory my life, more or less, since 1993. My skill set is not always the fluffy puppy variety, but I am as scientifically accurate as I know how.

You are in a safe place for people who encounter stigma and hatred and derision and mis/disinformation every day of their lives. If I come across as unsympathetic, it is because the LESSONS section at the top of this page exists for a reason. And because, though I like very much to think that I care about humanity as a whole, outside the AM I INFECTED forum my loyalties lie with the people who need protection from stigma and fear the most; people with HIV/AIDS.

I will make no apologies for my tone, which I personally think is extremely neutral.

And as for discerning whose paranoia is extreme and whose is not, I would like to direct you to the AM I INFECTED forum, where perfectly rational-seeming people peel back layer after layer of irrationality that does not respond to logic or science. Up there, I do the very best I can to exercise patience and compassion. Here, where positive people are more likely to read, I know I can come across as cold and even mean. It's not that I am antagonistic towards people like yourself.

It's because these people, my people as it were, need a safe space. Your posts might just cause a newly diagnosed person to consider ending his/her life rather than face the fear, mis/disinformation, and stigma you have noted. I would rather have you made at me than bring the stigma that already costs so many human lives into this safe space.

Believe it or not, I am on the side of science and compassion and even love, when it dares to try.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 10:51:42 PM »
I think the problem they are having with mecch is the condescending manner in which he responds to them. It doesn't help them, it doesn't help JK and it serves no purpose. He should be called out on it, and I just did.


Werd. Mecch, please help me out here. I am trying not to be antagonistic to the OP or the other relevant poster. Smoothing out the rough edges of your posts is not making it easier, and you should know this as a teacher.

Trust me, I understand and share your frustration. But I really am trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, regardless of my own jaded and rather cynical take on the topic.

I am, after all, in a serodiscordant relationship myself. Luckily he did the research he needed to do without my involvement. Which is one of the reasons we are together still.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline magneticnegative26

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 04:05:03 PM »
"Your posts might just cause a newly diagnosed person to consider ending his/her life rather than face the fear, mis/disinformation, and stigma you have noted."

I can appreciate fully where you are coming from.  And I can also understand the difference between this forum, where positive people are more likely to read, and the forum "AM I INFECTED?" which I hope they avoid, since that's an intense hotbed of stigma.  Referring to the original poster for this thread - the positive person's 'tears' infecting him as he was crying over his diagnosis?  Yikes - that's a really dark image and comes from a thoroughly ignorant place.

However, I don't see how you reduce the "Someone I care about has HIV" to a "courtesy."  That's like Al-Anon being merely a "courtesy" for non-alcoholics.  There is a distinct set of questions and issues that come from being the negative partner in a serodiscordant relationship, and I wonder whether you have the authority to characterize it as such. It provides an important service in allowing us to have a place to understand better how to deal with our issues (which, again, are distinct from having a positive diagnosis - and calling them distinct does NOT reduce the importance of serving the positive community, just like valuing Al-Anon does not devalue AA).

As I said earlier, your original reply really did comfort me with the science, and helped me and my partner allay some of the fears that we have.  And mecch's response was far more, well, rough around the edges, but still clearly rooted in exasperation at the ongoing confusion and paranoia. And I can totally understand - if I were positive, I would get sick of the stigma, too.  I almost certainly wouldn't have the patience to respond with 5000 posts - it would feel like a daily barrage.  For me, very new to this, the stigma has been the biggest issue so far.  My partner hasn't told another person since his diagnosis, and I don't think he will.

You give your opinion, based on good evidence, and I have to decide if I will trust your conclusions - a stranger on the internet - over our infectious disease specialist with an MD and twenty years of experience in the field.  Now, remarkably, I actually do, but this process is not so easy - it's not, as Meech puts it, "Know the facts, decide your practices, and move on to the meat of the relation." I think that scientists who have gotten lazy with the literature have an approach to HIV that is still thoroughly rooted in the past.  And I learned early on to dismiss the CDC for their guidelines, which seem to stem from Reagan-era paranoia.

You do good work, and you clearly care about ensuring that stigmatized people realize that these fears are abundantly irrational.

Anyway, I really don't want to be so upset about this anymore.  The portion I quoted from your post, above, basically equated the questions I've asked, entirely earnest and from a totally loving place (I'm just looking to find a way for my partner and me to be happy, and to comfort him with his fears about spreading the virus) with the possibility of another HIV positive person committing suicide. I think that conclusion makes an honest exchange in a forum ostensibly for people like me very hard to maintain. 

I really thought that I approached this totally rationally with the information that I've been given, and that I've tried to be sympathetic.  I'm currently pursuing a couple of masters degrees and I think I want to work with HIV/AIDS - I was hoping this forum would be a good introduction, and that I'd be able to share my information with other negatives in serodiscordant relationships, while seeking advice of those who have dealt with this, but if the old guard of this site believes I'm suicide-provoking, then clearly this isn't right for me.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:16:00 PM by magneticnegative26 »

Offline Jeff G

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 04:34:55 PM »
For the record JK statement about the negative impact and suicide risk when people read post here didn't seem pointed at any particular member , it seems to me he was speaking about why we deal in science and hundreds of years of collective wisdom from experienced members to make sure information is correct and clearly stated . 


Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 05:19:41 PM »

I really thought that I approached this totally rationally with the information that I've been given, and that I've tried to be sympathetic.  I'm currently pursuing a couple of masters degrees and I think I want to work with HIV/AIDS - I was hoping this forum would be a good introduction, and that I'd be able to share my information with other negatives in serodiscordant relationships, while seeking advice of those who have dealt with this, but if the old guard of this site believes I'm suicide-provoking, then clearly this isn't right for me.

Tnank you for taking the time to write that. As an "old guard," I can assure you that I do not believe that your thoughts are provoking anxiety and unrest. Sadly, this thread was started by someone who, just the day before, had posted in AM I INFECTED worried that the tears shed by his positive partner over his medicaiton would infect him.

God, think about that. And think about what that sort of mindset brings to THIS part of the forum. Most people on the forum don't read the AM I INFECTED portion. From what, we can spare them a little.

At the quite obvious expense of our ability to trust and remain hopeful.

So I often come over to this part of the forum very guarded, and if I sometimes overreact, please understand where I am coming from. We originally didn't have all these separate forums. LIVING WITH was a catch-all for people "affected AND infected with/by HIV/AIDS." And that worked for a shockingly long while.

But years ago it was becoming more and more stressful for people dealing with their treatment and diagnosis to hear an increasing amount of abject hysteria, paranoia, and more often that I care to remember, blame. So we created this forum as a double courtesy- to give people AFFECTED a place to gather information and support from HIV positive folks, AND to allow people in LIVING WITH (and the rest of the forums) a respite from having to explain themselves when venting or struggling.

"courtesy" did not, in this case, equal "condescension." Please know that.

I never want the integrity of this forum, whether it be science or genuine support, to be compromised by diluting the notion of AIDSMEDS as a safe space. Sure we use tough love, more in LIVING WITH than anywhere else. But the key part of that phrase should always be "love." And I do love these forums, and it is my intense desire to help them remain the best of their type on the internet.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline magneticnegative26

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 05:39:13 PM »
JK, thanks for clearing that up - I guess this is a typical English language second person/third person singular confusion (since we often use "you/your" in place of "one/one's", like other language). 

Your most recent response also does shed a lot of light on why you reacted the way that you did.  Since I'm new to this, I'm not aware of the history, nor the way in which these forums operate.  Now I understand why moderators are so insistent about moving messages from one space to another.  And it's great that "AM I INFECTED" is kept totally separate, because I've seen other sites riddled with totally insane/paranoid questions.  I have to say that the image of a person crying over their medication as a cause of concern about infection for the partner must be one of the saddest responses I've ever heard.

Som I see why this should be separate.  But, I think for negative partners like me, who really are trying to figure out how to make it work, it can be difficult to deal with the extreme language and condescension used by some members (and I really wasn't originally referring to you) and receiving responses to my open questions, like that my decision to apply my doctor-informed strategy suggests that I should seek therapy, that 'I can't imagine a positive partner not eventually growing weary of that level of paranoia', etc. etc.' ... I don't know, it's just not how I would communicate it to a negative partner in a newly serodiscordant relationship who wants to make it work.

Continuing with the Al-Anon analogy, maybe what I need to find is a space where I can communicate with other people specifically in my situation, who are negatives living with/loving positive partners, and not just the positive partners themselves.  For now, this forum is probably the best option I've found, but it's actually very rare to find just that.  I haven't been able to find it at any local Gay and Lesbian Centers or AHF affiliates.

As I said in my last post, I appreciate your good work - clarifying these studies helps many people in my position, and more importantly, does a lot to help clear the stigma.  So, thank you for that.

Offline mecch

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 05:59:23 PM »
First, Mecch: yes, I can see how that's confusing, since when I wrote Atripla that second time, I meant Truvada...  though my issue with your post remains, since that confusion wasn't the source of your statement.


I was genuinely confused about your statements mentioning taking Truvada and Atripla, and when you were taking it, with what sex practices.   

Since you are following doctor's orders, God speed, and I bow out of this naturally.   

You're going to get different answers as to what is risky and what is not, finally its up to you to take in all the input and decide.

I heard Truvada and then Atripla and in the (misunderstood) context of protected sex. Given that it is known that HIV- people come here with all sorts of odd engagements with HIV the virus and HIV+ people, I try to pay attention if something is off.  Completely mistaken concern with you, and mea culpa.   
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline beautyface

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2013, 01:52:27 PM »
First, it should be said that I did not post a question in this forum with the goal of eliciting responses from positive members; quite the contrary, I had hoped to hear from non jaded negative people in serodiscordant relationships.  After everything I have read above my sentiment remains unchanged: You don't know me at all, you weren't there, you don't know what my former boyfriend was crying about, you people are incredibly presumptious, nasty, judgmental and I don't consider your counsel to at all be "tough love".  That's BS.  I can't say here what I really want to say to you JK.  I have a very low opinion of you.

Not to mention self-righteous!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 01:54:40 PM by beautyface »

Offline Ann

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2013, 01:56:36 PM »
First, it should be said that I did not post a question in this forum with the goal of eliciting responses from positive members; quite the contrary, I had hoped to hear from non jaded negative people in serodiscordant relationships.  After everything I have read above my sentiment remains unchanged: You don't know me at all, you weren't there, you don't know what my former boyfriend was crying about, you people are incredibly presumptious, nasty, judgmental and I don't consider your counsel to at all be "tough love".  That's BS.  I can't say here what I really want to say to you JK.  I have a very low opinion of you.

Not to mention self-righteous!

Enough of the name-calling. Freedom to post here does not mean freedom from getting replies that you don't like. If the truth hurts, that's not our fault.

Ann
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2013, 06:30:04 PM »
Regardless o what I was crying about before, if I discovered that my significant other was afraid of getting HIV from my tears, I would certainly end up crying about THAT.

I kept typing over and over again that I was sorry that the OP has a low opinion of me.  Then I kept erasing that. Because I am not sorry for a single thing I have said on this thread pertaining to this poster. Nope.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2013, 07:20:49 PM »
Hi BF

It is the amalgamation of observations combined with life experiences with HIV and without HIV (yep, we were all negative before we were positive) that make Ann, Jeff, JK ,MtD, MissP, Alan, RapidRod, Dachshund, Basquo, BT and on and on and on, able to make insightful posts. You've probably read the posts of beloved dead members and not even known it. For some, you walk onto a hallowed field of play here and a sliver of deference is not a bad thing.

I re-read this thread starting with your first post and there you state you love your not-too-long-to-be-partner and would like to take away his pain and by your fifth post you're noting to Mecch that it could never work as there are issues beyond the HIV that are unworkable.

To jump into a forum full of many people who are wise well beyond their calendar years and comment as you have makes for a disappointing experience for everyone -- you included.

Imagine that as we are reading what you wrote, we're all thanking our lucky stars that we have each other, supportive parents, friends and fantastic ophthalmologists who are kindhearted and helpful and whew!, not afraid of our tears (as they know we've shed many of them).

If you're going to read something, may I encourage you to re-read your posts and try to understand how it might be for someone who is HIV positive to read what you wrote. Frankly, I halted when I read that this manfriend was your first HIV positive involvement as if you foresaw more to come -- but then decided it was just phrasing. You see, I made a judgement based on sentence construction, retracted it and moved forward.

For you to write that you have a low opinion of JK assures me you've not read enough of his posts. Further, if they're still archived on his blog that was once parked on this site, that is where you should take your thirst for knowledge. You are concerned about him not knowing you, I suggest you be more concerned about entering Hogwarts here and trying to learn who the best professors are.

Leviosa!!
Em
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 07:25:19 PM by emeraldize »

Offline YellowFever

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Re: Needing Some Advice: New Magnetic Relationship
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2013, 09:11:06 PM »
If the truth hurts, that's not our fault.

Amen!!
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