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Author Topic: A new policy for the Boyscouts?  (Read 5729 times)

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Offline mitch777

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A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« on: January 28, 2013, 04:22:34 PM »
Seems as though the Boyscouts are finally rethinking their policy on sexual orientation.
Decision to be made as early as next week at the national level.
Unfortunately, it looks as though local chapters can still be A**hOles if they wish.
Sorry, no link.
Saw the report on MNSBC this afternoon.
32 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 05:06:26 PM »
considering how most Boy Scouts organizations in the US have been intertwined with religious organizations, and nearly all religious organizations have tenets against homosexuality, I've never understood why anyone was surprised (or cared) that the Boy Scouts ousted homosexuals. I've always thought a non-religion-affiliated Boy Scouts should have been created by someone to combat this issue.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 05:25:35 PM »
I've always thought a non-religion-affiliated Boy Scouts should have been created by someone to combat this issue.

That's the sad part. No one created any viable alternative to the Boy Scouts. Not on a national level, at any rate. Certainly not one as entrenched in favor (and favors) with local and regional infrastructure.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline mecch

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 06:17:14 PM »
That's the sad part. No one created any viable alternative to the Boy Scouts. Not on a national level, at any rate. Certainly not one as entrenched in favor (and favors) with local and regional infrastructure.

Indian Guides had a good run when I was a kid.  I loved it.  It was very hippy dippy and quite campy.....
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 07:00:41 PM »
This is Excellent news, as just 7months ago the national level reaffirmed its commitment to the ban. So yet another block of discrimination comes tumbling down. Bravo. Although it will be interesting to see what the local level does.

-W

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Offline drewm

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 07:05:41 PM »
This is Excellent news, as just 7months ago the national level reaffirmed its commitment to the ban. So yet another block of discrimination comes tumbling down. Bravo. Although it will be interesting to see what the local level does.

-W

Are you signing up?
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 07:11:00 PM »
Are you signing up?

Cute. I'll have you know I was a Boy Scout, and made it to Webolos before I grew tired of it. Also, my Pine box car placed 3rd in the Derby.

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 07:19:32 PM »
I quit the boy scouts after two weeks, when they attempted to make me learn to make knots in ropes and play football.

As if!

B
O
R
I
N
G

Not to mention where I grew up being in Boy Scouts/Weeblos after a certain age was a sure sign of Loserdom.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 07:22:56 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 07:23:52 PM »
Although it will be interesting to see what the local level does.
it'll definitely be interesting to see how many Methodist, Presbyterian and Baptist churches (which all disavow homosexuality as a grievous sin) quit hosting facilities for the Boy Scouts, when the Scouts quit discriminating, or whether they continue to discriminate against gays on the sly. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 07:35:00 PM »
it'll definitely be interesting to see how many Methodist, Presbyterian and Baptist (which all disavow homosexuality as a grievous sin)

You don't even know what your talking about half the time, My church which is one of the largest Methodists churches in San Antonio http://www.travispark.org/mission, does not disavow homosexuality and as matter of fact many of the ministerial staff are gay, as is half the congregation. The UMC, in conjunction with Reconciling Ministries Network http://www.rmnetwork.org/  PFLAG, and Believe Out Loud is making great strides in this area of inclusion for all. I believe the Presbyterians are as well, though not sure. Baptist probably not.

So, see, not ALL disavow Homosexuality. Do your homework.



-W

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:02:07 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 07:39:15 PM »
Isn't that speshul?

"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 08:09:59 PM »
You don't even know what your talking about half the time, My church which is one of the largest Methodists churches in San Antonio http://www.travispark.org/mission, does not disavow homosexuality and as matter of fact many of the ministerial staff are gay, as is half the congregation. The UMC, in conjunction with Reconciling Ministries Network http://www.rmnetwork.org/  PFLAG, and Believe Out Loud is making great strides in this area of inclusion for all. I believe the Presbyterians are as well, though not sure. Baptist probably not.

So, see, not ALL disavow Homosexuality. Do your homework.



-W

Ya know, Wumpette, I think ol' leather can be....um...."forgiven" for the statement he made.  On the whole, each of these denominations DO loathe the queers.  Sure, you may find a smattering of the more hippy dippy sects that are more open - but these certainly do not make up the whole or even the majority.  Not by a long shot.  And of the groups who are ever so open, you very rarely hear shouting from the rafters against those who do discriminate. 

Yeesh.  If there was anything even close to approaching real acceptance within the ranks of organized religion, there wouldn't be any "homework" necessary.

Just another queen trying to dress up religion and give it more credit than due - much like the those loathesome gay republicans do for their grand old party.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:11:30 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 08:17:49 PM »
You don't even know what your talking about half the time, My church which is one of the largest Methodists churches in San Antonio http://www.travispark.org/mission, does not disavow homosexuality and as matter of fact many of the ministerial staff are gay, as is half the congregation. The UMC, in conjunction with Reconciling Ministries Network http://www.rmnetwork.org/  PFLAG, and Believe Out Loud is making great strides in this area of inclusion for all. I believe the Presbyterians are as well, though not sure. Baptist probably not.

So, see, not ALL disavow Homosexuality. Do your homework.



-W



...though shalt not lie!  Is this out of date then?

Regarding clergy 
∂ 304.3
While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world. The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.2
1. "Self-avowed practicing homosexual" is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, board of ordained ministry, or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual. See Judicial Council Decisions 702, 708, 722, 725, 764, 844, 984.
2. See Judicial Council Decisions 984, 985.
∂ 341.6
Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:22:04 PM by Miss Philicia »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 08:25:54 PM »
Look, Im not inferring that "we've arrived" in terms of religions acceptance of all, but "times are a changin" and we are moving in the right direction. Look I get some people,  despise religion and it's not for everyone. But for those of us who believe and wish to be a part of an all accepting congregation there are now places for us.

The Lutheran church now allows non-celibate gays to be ordained, as does the Presbyterian Church and Episcopalians(MissP will fact check this I hope). This was not the case just 5-10 years ago. And well, the Metropolitan Community Church, well heck you practically HAVE TO BE GAY to be a member there.

My response to Leatherman was his term of "ALL disavow homosexuals". This is not true, at all. Now is it?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:33:12 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 08:35:22 PM »

The Lutheran church now allows non-celibate gays to be ordained, as does the Presbyterian Church (MissP will fact check this I hope). This was not the case just 5 years ago. And well, the Metropolitan Community Church, well heck you practically HAVE TO BE GAY to be a member there.


Wrong, Lutherans (US) allow celibate homosexuals only to be ordained ministers. And that only happened four years ago.

Now, we all know about Episcopals because of Gene Robinson -- which by the way happened an entire decade ago. But that was about bishops -- they'd had an openly gay priest since they allowed women to be ordained in 1977. So you see, this really is the only large denomination for a gay person to be seen attending.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 08:38:09 PM »
Here's a nifty little graph at the bottom of this Wiki page that lists each churches position on inclusion..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality
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Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 08:47:00 PM »
Do your homework.
ALL major religions (I shouldn't have left out the Catholic church btw) believe homosexuality to be a sin - often they equate it to be on par with murder, rape, etc. If a church, or offshoot of a major branch of religion does accept homosexuality, that church is not following the precepts of the national or global religion it claims to belong to.

Just another queen trying to dress up religion and give it more credit than due - much like the those loathesome gay republicans do for their grand old party.
IMHO, just like the Gay republican hypocrites aide and abet those who would make gays second class citizens (or worse, criminals), churches that keep the name of a major religion aide and abet that major religion in their persecution and stigmatization of homosexuals ruining lives and being responsible for the deaths (from violence or suicide) that ensue from that discrimination.

re lutherans
"ELCA congregations that specifically embrace LGBT persons are called Reconciling in Christ congregations" - Gay-accepting Lutheran churches are currently an offshoot of the religion

here's your homework assignment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality


Look I get some people,  despise religion and it's not for everyone.
how little you understand me, my stance with God, 9 yrs in a Baptist high school and 2 yrs in Baptist college.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 08:47:35 PM »
Wrong, Lutherans (US) allow celibate homosexuals only to be ordained ministers. And that only happened four years ago.


Wrong.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/08/21/Lutherans-approve-gay-ministers/UPI-57371250871240/

The ELCA, with 4.8 million members, becomes the largest Christian group in the United States to approve gay ministers. The vote changes a policy that had allowed only celibate gays to serve in the ministry.


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Last Labs-
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6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
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Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 08:51:45 PM »
Here's a nifty little graph at the bottom of this Wiki page that lists each churches position on inclusion..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

So then you agree that you lied earlier about your church?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 08:54:30 PM »
Wrong.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/08/21/Lutherans-approve-gay-ministers/UPI-57371250871240/

The ELCA, with 4.8 million members, becomes the largest Christian group in the United States to approve gay ministers. The vote changes a policy that had allowed only celibate gays to serve in the ministry.




Yes, that's right -- I read the wikipedia entry to quickly :(

But hey, I'm not a Lutheran so why should I care? You don't even know what your own church's position is! ;D
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 09:01:30 PM »
ALL major religions (I shouldn't have left out the Catholic church btw) believe homosexuality to be a sin - often they equate it to be on par with murder, rape, etc. If a church, or offshoot of a major branch of religion does accept homosexuality, that church is not following the precepts of the national or global religion it claims to belong to.

Not really -- if the Episcopal church allows an active homosexual in a committed partnership to perform communion then obviously they don't find that to be a sin. They would, however, assign the same sin of out-of-marriage sex acts to BOTH hetero and homosexual. And it merely means that they read the relevant passages in the Bible differently than you do, or some other church. Anyway, they're not literalists like a Baptist. It's like the difference between Reform and Orthodox Judaism, or why the early Christians performed abortions up to the second trimester.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 09:09:32 PM »
So then you agree that you lied earlier about your church?

No? Look at My Churches link and tell me where I lied. You notice that the graph states "varies" right? is that what you are referring to.


ALL major religions believe homosexuality to be a sin - often they equate it to be on par with murder, rape, etc.

There is that word ALL again  ::) Ok,  here is jsut a couple examples...can you point out for me where are they likening it to Murder and rape? Im missing that.

Presbyterinaism-
Attitudes in Presbyterianism toward homosexuality vary, ranging from outright condemnation to complete acceptance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality


Episcopalians -
There are a growing number of places in the church were lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) persons are welcomed, affirmed in their ministries and blessed in their committed relationships.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_epis.htm


, 9 yrs in a Baptist high school and 2 yrs in Baptist college.

Clearly this is your problem



« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 09:21:21 PM by WillyWump »
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Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 09:16:29 PM »
No? Look at My Churches link and tell me where I lied. You notice that the graph states "varies" right? is that what you are referring to.

No, by "church" I meant the entire denomination and that's what you said earlier.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 09:24:17 PM »

Episcopalians -
There are a growing number of places in the church were lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) persons are welcomed, affirmed in their ministries and blessed in their committed relationships.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_epis.htm


Clearly this is your problem





Clearly what is my problem? You don't seem to understand how the Episcopal Church functions. Any congregations that disagreed with the ordination of gay bishops several years ago were forced to leave the church, including giving up land and buildings or buying them back from the diocese when they departed. They now call themselves the Anglican Church in North America.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 09:37:02 PM »
Clearly what is my problem?

Your problems are too numerous to notate here.

If you re-read my reply I was referring to Leathermans being in Baptist High School and college as "his" problem.

It's not always about you dearie ::)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 09:39:37 PM by WillyWump »
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Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 10:36:39 PM »
Leathermans being in Baptist High School and college as "his" problem.
What I had meant was that my Baptist upbringing and my spiritually aren't my problem at all. You believing I despise religion was an erroneous assumption and seemed to be a problem.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 10:46:31 PM »
Blech!!  Homosexuals discussing organized religion. 

Sad  >:(

Get the point.  You're all going to hell as soon as you croak.  You can thank your sodomite ways for that permanent vacation.

I'm a little angel and will receive my halo upon my departure from this sinful world.  It will be rainbow-colored with tons of sequins and precious stones.

Ps./ I tried to join the Boy Scouts, but my parents wouldn't allow it.  Looking back I'm thankful to them for that decision.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2013, 11:04:41 PM »

There is that word ALL again  ::) Ok,  here is jsut a couple examples...can you point out for me where are they likening it to Murder and rape? Im missing that.


I'm still waiting patiently for Leather's reply to this^ But I guess he went to bed (and didnt say his prayers).

But while I wait, I must come clean. I was PM'd earlier from an astute member and was informed that technically I was not a Boy Scout if I only made it to Webolos, and that I really was only a lowly Cub Scout. I am sorry If I misled yall on my storied pedigree.

-W
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Last Labs-
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Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Online Jeff G

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 11:22:09 PM »
I'm still waiting for the obligatory but I bet you ate a brownie joke . I guess I just made it .

Offline mitch777

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 11:23:46 PM »
another can-o-worms.

sleep tight my loves.

don't let the bed bugs bite!
(unless you are into it.) :)
32 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 11:27:20 PM »

But while I wait, I must come clean. I was PM'd earlier from an astute member and was informed that technically I was not a Boy Scout if I only made it to Webolos, and that I really was only a lowly Cub Scout. I am sorry If I misled yall on my storied pedigree.

-W

That's OK girl -- we've all long realized to lower expectations with you
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 11:38:48 PM »
I'm still waiting patiently for Leather's reply to this^
if by this time in your life you haven't seen the hate from the Westboro Baptist, or the vid of that little kid singing hate in a NC church, or heard one of thousands of preachers testifying to the evilness, the sinfulness, the utter depravity of the sin of homosexuality, and you don't realize how much major organized religions have stigmatized, persecuted and discriminated against homosexuals, then just what are you trying argue here?!?!

Sure your church might be all hunky-dorey with queers in the pews but most churches still won't hesitate to tell a gay person that they are going to hell and burning in everlasting fire. Are you trying to imply something different? I don't need to give examples. It's a fact of life that plenty of gays have been thrown out of their churches, and our of their homes, because religious doctrine has taught how "evil" gays are.

Many Boy Scout troops have been affiliated with many religious organizations and so, with the views those religions have had on homosexuality, it should come as no surprise that those Boy Scout troops don't approve or accept homosexuals either.
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 11:46:33 PM »
if by this time in your life you haven't seen the hate from the Westboro Baptist, or the vid of that little kid singing hate in a NC church, or heard one of thousands of preachers testifying to the evilness, the sinfulness, the utter depravity of the sin of homosexuality, and you don't realize how much major organized religions have stigmatized, persecuted and discriminated against homosexuals, then just what are you trying argue here?!?!

Sure your church might be all hunky-dorey with queers in the pews but most churches still won't hesitate to tell a gay person that they are going to hell and burning in everlasting fire. Are you trying to imply something different? I don't need to give examples. It's a fact of life that plenty of gays have been thrown out of their churches, and our of their homes, because religious doctrine has taught how "evil" gays are.

Many Boy Scout troops have been affiliated with many religious organizations and so, with the views those religions have had on homosexuality, it should come as no surprise that those Boy Scout troops don't approve or accept homosexuals either.

Amen. To think otherwise about organized religion, especially Christianity, is rather naive and disingenuous.  Plenty a time I've been told that I'm going to hell for whom I've chosen to love.  And I come from a half Catholic/half Jewish background.  I remain unimpressed. 
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 11:54:45 PM »
My better half, Brian, is an Eagle Scout.  After their recent reaffirmation, he was thinking about returning his medals.  Over the last year, he has gotten tired of living in secret.  His fellow teachers have known for years, but he was in the closet at the fire dept.  But, he has now come out with his fellow firefighters. 

He has been asked a few times about coming back and participating in Scouts.  He doesn't really have the time, but couldn't even if he did.  He was not going to live in secret.  He doesn't go around shouting that he's gay.  But, he wasn't going to be forced to hide who he is.  He has been elated by today's news, even though many troops will probably still discriminate.  I would guess only those troops in more progressive areas will make a change. 

Change is happening at a fairly fast pace.  It seems like gay rights issues are discussed daily, in personal conversations and in news reports.  I think this has so much to do with who's in the White House.  Regular people have done all the hard work, but a president can take all that and give it a huge voice.  A president can cause people to look at an issue differently and inspire them to speak out.  This is exactly what happened with Brian.  He saw the president end DADT, stop defending DOMA, and come out for marriage equality.  It caused him to stop hiding who he is.  He never went way out of his way to hide it.  I am sure most knew, or suspected.  But, he began to engage in normal conversations about home life.

Offline bocker3

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 07:50:34 AM »
Sad that we can't actually acknowledge that something like this is a good thing.  Momentous, not quite -- gonna change the world, nope -- Should we want more -- without a doubt, but it IS a step in the right direction. 

Mike
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Offline Ann

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 08:19:39 AM »
While the American United Methodist Church may be more accepting of gays and lesbians these days, I can assure you that the Wesleyan Methodist Church still considers it a sin. Most Methodist churches on this side of the pond are Wesleyan. Here's an excerpt from their PDF "pastoral letter" on where they stand on homosexuality:

It is only a recent aberration that a few denominations—infiltrated by leaders and influencers who question or reject the authority of Christian Scriptures—have arrogantly challenged twenty centuries of orthodoxy and orthopraxy by condoning homosexual relationships as behavior compatible with a Christian profession of faith. link

Heh. "Arrogantly" challenged twenty centuries of myth and a means of keeping people scared of "the afterlife" so they continue to contribute to the church's coffers in the hopes it will pave their way to "heaven".

BTW, the Wesleyan church is also active in North America.

edited to add The Wesleyan Church is the only Methodist Church here on the Rock. John Wesley himself preached here and It was a Big Deal back then. link



Sad that we can't actually acknowledge that something like this is a good thing.  Momentous, not quite -- gonna change the world, nope -- Should we want more -- without a doubt, but it IS a step in the right direction. 

Mike
(who loved his boyhood trips to Boy Scout camps..........)

You're right, definitely a step in the right direction.

I was in the Girl Scouts and loved camping too. And learning how to tie knots held me in good stead when I became a commercial fishermanbitch as an adult.

I don't remember the Girl Scouts ever being homophobic back in my day, but from what I understand they are somewhat now - perhaps a reflection of the growth of the religious right since the 1970s when I was a scout.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:43:23 AM by Ann »
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Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 09:29:21 AM »
I don't remember the Girl Scouts ever being homophobic back in my day, but from what I understand they are somewhat now - perhaps a reflection of the growth of the religious right since the 1970s when I was a scout.
or is it a reflection of the growth and outspokenness of gay/gay rights since the 60s? I'm sure the GSA and BSA were always this homophobic because society in general was while homosexuals were a lot more in the closet in those days. Those that did "come out" were often easily discriminated against with much greater consent from the public and quietly removed.

Sad that we can't actually acknowledge that something like this is a good thing.
I guess it's a good thing. How will it be enforced? Will it cause a division in the ranks as some groups continue to discriminate? will some churches force local packs to find new locations and sponsors rather than continue this affialiation? will discrimination go "underground" but still continue? Hard to say without a crystal ball but it does seem a step forward.

As I mentioned earlier, a much better option would have been an alternative non-religion-affiliated substitute formed a long time ago. But honor, duty, God and country was just too convenient of a meme for churches and the scouts to partner on.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 10:11:22 AM »
if by this time in your life you haven't seen the hate from the Westboro Baptist,


Please. I dont think anyone here condones ANY of Westoboro's hate. You're grasping again.  What you are refusing to understand or admit, is that not ALL churches and religions are the same. If I Attend or like a reconciling Methodist Church, or Presbyterian..does that mean that I agree with Westboro? You really need to broaden your understanding of the differences. The Bible has different interpretations depending on who you are asking. My Minister believes ALL who accept Christ are going to heaven. Period. and guess, what...he even lets fags take communion <GASP>

This little thing started with you saying "All churches disavow homosexuality", then you doubled down with "All religions treat homosexuals like Murderers"  If you will go back and read this thread again you will see that is simply not the case...Presbyterians ordain active homosexuals, but they do not ordain active murders. Etc..

Not for one minute do I believe all religions or churches are the same and all accept homosexuals, but you seem to believe that they ALL hate homos or think they are akin to murderers.

As for the Scouts, I heard that only about half of troops are sponsored by churches. I dont know what these branches will do. We will see.

But Ill say it again.. for anyone to say this change at the national level is NOT a good thing and a step in the right direction. well they are a bit short sighted arent they?\
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 10:44:06 AM by WillyWump »
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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 10:18:16 AM »
Will somebody PLEASE rain down the Cabal and get rid of this HORRID SAD THREAD as it seems to be going down hill very FAST  :-[
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 12:45:11 PM »
Anyone care to see a picture of the lovely church I went to over Christmas?
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 04:17:31 PM »
Will somebody PLEASE rain down the Cabal and get rid of this HORRID SAD THREAD as it seems to be going down hill very FAST  :-[


LOLwut

I don't see that at all.

When I became an Eagle Scout in 1984, the Methodist Church had not gone completely anti-gay. Like many churches, it used to have a DODT policy of sorts, I think. But even now, there are several gay-affirming churches in the city where I live. The Methodist Church in downtown Atlanta, for example, nt only hands out water to people walking in the Pride Parade, but a few years back they formed a protective circle around some protesting asshats.

Oh, and they also march in the parade, as do several other churches and religious places.

I am not religious, and have documented issues with organized religion. But I think it does no one any favors to paint with such a broad brush. There are babies in that bathwater, angels in the architecture, or something.

As a private organization, they have the right to discriminate. But it is nice to know that pressure from within is making them rethink that choice. Whether your gay child would receive the same treatment (or a gay adimt leader would be welcome) in a major city or a rural area might be something worth considering. But that stuff happens everywhere, and not just for gay folks.

BTW - Ann, the Girl Scouts have received a lot of criticism for coming out totally in support of gay leaders and members. This is why, with no real sweet tooth to speak of, I buy thirty dollars' worth of those damned cookies every year.

I am under no illusion that the BSA is doing this because everyone got all enlightened. It's a financial Change-Or-Die situation. Meh, I don't much care. I will take my change however it's served for the most part.



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Offline denb45

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 08:29:21 PM »
I wasn't referring to the original scope of this thread about the Boyscouts, I think the way they are changing what they think is a good thing..

I just didn't like where the stigma and disavowal came into play on religion, as almost nobody can agree to disagree..... :o

 I have a lots of issues with organized religion as well, and this is  what's wrong with the world we live in, most of it's problems all stem from it, and if you throw HIV/AIDS in the mix it's even worse,

 isn't there already enough stigma with all of this disavowal, and exclusion of a certain groups of people......why on earth would anyone want to support ANY organized religion that does these things people ::)
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Offline Ann

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 08:37:10 PM »

or is it a reflection of the growth and outspokenness of gay/gay rights since the 60s? I'm sure the GSA and BSA were always this homophobic because society in general was while homosexuals were a lot more in the closet in those days. Those that did "come out" were often easily discriminated against with much greater consent from the public and quietly removed.


I can only speak of how I found things to be in the 1970s GSA in the "Greater Cleveland" area of NE Ohio. Lesbians abounded in the organisation and while we didn't exactly have Gay Pride badges to put on our sashes, nobody batted an eye about it either.

I think these days with so many young American children being strident, homophobic "christians" (aping their parents), it couldn't possibly be the same as what I'm about to relate. They'd be shouting homophobic abuse from the tent tops.

There were plenty of pre-adolescent and teenage crushes at summer camp and no moves were made to squash them. I don't recall any outright sex (nothing below the waist), but there was plenty of kissing, cuddling and titty-feeling going on and pretty much every one knew it. I kissed a girl and I liked it - for the first time at summer camp.

I never knew of anything like this going on between camp counsellors and campers. I'm pretty sure some of the counsellors - usually women in their late teens/early 20s (collage age) - were getting it on with each other though.

Ah, memories! :)
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 08:46:59 PM »

 isn't there already enough stigma with all of this disavowal, and exclusion of a certain groups of people......why on earth would anyone want to support ANY organized religion that does these things people ::)

Yes, Like these dirty filthy Methodists...

The Methodist Church in downtown Atlanta, for example, nt only hands out water to people walking in the Pride Parade, .

Oh, and they also march in the parade, as do several other churches and religious places.

.

I think JK said it most eloquently with the "Broad Brush" reference. It's short sighted, and wrong to make sweeping generalizations about a group. "ALL" is a very strong word. Not All Organized religion is the same, there are some good groups and some very bad groups. But over the past few years BIG changes have been happening in religion with Inclusion and acceptance of Gays. Its not enough, but its a damn good start considering where we came from




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Offline denb45

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 09:20:05 PM »
Well I was brought up in Holly Roller (speaking tongues) Church and all of that, just cause I grew up that way doesn't mean I support any it.....

and NO, I don't wish to talk  about any of it ...if you must know, it's kinda the reason why I haven't spoken to some of my family members in many yrs.

But yeah, there is good and very bad in some organized religion, it's the very bad that we need to watch out for.....
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Offline leatherman

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2013, 09:32:29 PM »
Quote from: WillyWump
but you seem to believe that they ALL hate homos

"ALL" is a very strong word.
you missed the words "nearly" and "major" which qualified each of my references to "religions", and keep misquoting me as if I said ALL religions hate gays; but that isn't what I typed at all. I know that 100% of anything isn't true. LOL

However, it should be common knowledge, and it does shows in that chart and article about the religions, that all the major religions have been preaching against homosexuality for centuries. Most of the religions that are accepting of gays (and not all of them are 100% accepting, nor have they always been accepting 100% of the time) tend to either be lesser known religions or off-shoots from the main denominations.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2013, 09:47:38 PM »
ACT-UP Philly meets at an Episcopal Church -- HOW DARE THEY DO THAT! >:( ;D ;)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 09:55:11 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline denb45

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2013, 09:56:16 PM »
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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2013, 09:58:12 PM »
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2013, 11:29:42 PM »
you missed the words "nearly" and "major" which qualified each of my references to "religions", and keep misquoting me as if I said ALL religions hate gays; but that isn't what I typed at all. I know that 100% of anything isn't true. LOL



Sweet. Then We are in agreement that there are some Good churches. My bad ;)
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2013, 12:29:54 AM »
There is a Baptist church here that so many gay friends attend.  I couldn't believe it.  They said it really isn't the Baptist you would normally think.  Here is what they say on their website:

"We believe that God includes all in the community of faith regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, class, or education. Thus Highland is made up of rich and poor, gay and straight, Red and Blue, black and white, young and old, Ph.D. and GED."

So, they just kept the Baptist title, without following the beliefs they are known for.  I suppose the Red and Blue may be reference to the rivalry between universities here?  I do think this is extremely rare--for Baptist churches especially.  I suppose that goes without saying. 

Other than this place and the church started by gays, I have never heard of a church here that says being gay is cool with the baby Jesus.  Some may be tolerant and allow you to attend services, but I think they would say being gay is a sin, but that many things are sins, while probably seeing being gay as a bigger sin and hoping you would have a transformation.  Could be wrong, but I have never heard of other churches here that say being gay is perfectly natural and the way God made you. 

https://hbclouisville.org/about-us/


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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2013, 01:14:59 AM »
I'm sure it depends on location as well.  There is a church here that has a giant rainbow flag hanging from their steeple and its not uncommon to see drag queens dressed in their sunday best attending services.

www.allpilgrims.org

I went to catholic college and it was very progressive and liberal and gay.  Granted it was a Jesuit University but they are still catholic.
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2013, 01:21:17 AM »
I'm sure it depends on location as well.  There is a church here that has a giant rainbow flag hanging from their steeple and its not uncommon to see drag queens dressed in their sunday best attending services.



Ooh chile, that actually sounds kinda fabulous. 

Not that I'd join any church, as I'm a firm believer in the notion that Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes, but I kinda like the whole lovey-dovey, inclusive nature of a congregation such as that one. 
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Online buginme2

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2013, 01:33:37 AM »

Ooh chile, that actually sounds kinda fabulous. 

Not that I'd join any church, as I'm a firm believer in the notion that Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes, but I kinda like the whole lovey-dovey, inclusive nature of a congregation such as that one.

I dont do religion either.  I did however go to this church one time as a guest of a friend of mine.  It was refreshing to see the drag queens line up to take communion.  They were all dressed up with big hats and pearls.  Was super cute.

Oh I forgot. Best thing about this place wasnt just that they had drag queens.  There were also families and grandmas and old peiple who have lived in the neighborhood their whole lives, lesbians you name it all going to church tovether.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 01:36:32 AM by buginme2 »
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2013, 01:42:16 AM »
Now, this is the gay church here in Louisville.  Brian went for a while.  Even though it was gay run, I still just didn't see the point in going.  Perhaps that was short-sighted, as we could have met some great friends.  But, I felt like I would just be sitting there like a bump on the log, while true believers were praising Christ. 

http://www.mcclouisvilleky.org/


Oh, our friends adopted a baby.  The adoption agent, or whatever she is called, had a list of groups that facilitate adoptions.  Because they were gay, the list of 15 was reduced to 2.  I didn't realize how many adoptions are handled by religious groups.  I thought that was so unfortunate, as so many kids end up staying in children's homes until they are 18.  Or, they go from one foster family to the next.  If you're a black child, your odds of staying in the system go way up.   

Offline Ann

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2013, 08:05:49 AM »

BTW - Ann, the Girl Scouts have received a lot of criticism for coming out totally in support of gay leaders and members. This is why, with no real sweet tooth to speak of, I buy thirty dollars' worth of those damned cookies every year.


I missed this last night - and I'm glad I re-read some portions of this thread and noticed it.

I'm so happy to hear that the GSA has kept and expanded their policy of inclusion. I know back in my day they were pretty progressive and taught girls and young women that we had worth in society and could be independent. Original Girl Power, if you will.

When I was still living in the States in the '80 I watched institution after institution crumble to the Moral Majority's stance. I guess I always assumed the GSA would have too - at least to an extent.

Maybe someday Girl Scouts will have Gay Pride badges to put on their sashes. (although I think they wear vests now instead of sashes) Wouldn't that be wonderful?


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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2013, 10:28:42 AM »
Maybe someday Girl Scouts will have Gay Pride badges to put on their sashes. (although I think they wear vests now instead of sashes) Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Maybe someday, Gay Pride will only be remembered as history, as sexual orientation will no longer be seen as anything but just another facet of human beings.

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Offline thunter34

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2013, 10:33:02 AM »
Maybe someday, Gay Pride will only be remembered as history, as sexual orientation will no longer be seen as anything but just another facet of human beings.

Joe

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Offline denb45

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2013, 11:00:40 AM »
Yeah , but unfortunately at my current age, I doubt I'll live to witness any of this, however, I'm very glad to be a part of this place in history someday, when living with other man for the last 20yrs. of my life will no longer be viewed as something deviant in the future :)
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2013, 12:04:46 PM »

"We believe that God includes all in the community of faith regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, class, or education. Thus Highland is made up of rich and poor, gay and straight, Red and Blue, black and white, young and old, Ph.D. and GED."


This is almost word for word to Travis Park Methodist Mission stmt..

We serve and learn as brothers and sisters from all walks of life:
          rich and poor,
                    housed and homeless,
                              gay and straight,
                                        black and brown and white,
                                                  secular and sacred,
                                                                 PhD and GED.
God calls us on a journey forward,to break down the walls of prejudice and to embrace all our brothers and sister.

But dont you think the "Red and Blue" in your example refers to Repubs and Dems vs some universities?
POZ since '08

Last Labs-
11-6-14 CD4- 871, UD
6/3/14 CD4- 736, UD 34%
6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
2/4/13, CD4 - 489, UD, 28%

Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
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Offline denb45

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2013, 12:23:19 PM »
Oh Willypoo I wouldn't worry to much about any of this, in the holly roller church they all believe that there is power in the blood of jebus  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline WillyWump

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2013, 12:40:06 PM »
O in the holly roller church

lol. whats the Holy Roller Church?
POZ since '08

Last Labs-
11-6-14 CD4- 871, UD
6/3/14 CD4- 736, UD 34%
6/25/13 CD4- 1036, UD,
2/4/13, CD4 - 489, UD, 28%

Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
.

Offline denb45

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  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2013, 12:42:55 PM »
Holly Roller Church

Definition: "Pentecostal" Christians may also be described as "Charismatic." Pentecostals include Protestant Christians who believe that the "manifestations of the Holy Spirit"
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline wolfter

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »
http://www.unitedchurchgranville.org/how-we-came-to-be-the-united-church-of-granville.html

I simply could not believe when one of our local Baptist churches started actively recruiting gays.  Not for transformational purposes, but rather for fellowship and mutual acceptance.

Sitting through plenty of damnation sermons, I never thought I'd see this happen.  I'll try to find the link, but my alma mater (Mount Vernon Nazarene University) has also changed their views towards homosexuality.  When I attended, puritan sex was forbidden and preached against.  Having gay tendencies would haver required individual prayer therapy with the church leaders.  Now that I think about it, I probably could have made a few hookups...hmmm...might have missed some hot clergy sex.
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2013, 01:30:49 PM »
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Joe K

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2013, 02:10:47 PM »
So far, I remain unimpressed by the actions of the BSA.  Rather than coming out against any discrimination at the national level, they are simply offering the "option" of accepting gay folks at the local level.  What message is it that they are sending?

I think it goes something like this: "We've lost untold revenue because of our gay ban, so if we change the national policy, nobody can claim we discriminate against gays, because we don't... at least not at the national level."  Problem solved.

Not impressed at all.

Joe

Offline denb45

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Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2013, 02:13:12 PM »
Growing up in the Holly Roller/Evangelical church we were required to give @ least 15% to 20% of our income, if you could not do this @ least 10% was the norm  :)

but this guy, is just plain "CHEAP" both Bob & I always tip @ least 20 to 25% around  town, now-a-days isn't this considered the norm all over  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: A new policy for the Boyscouts?
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2013, 02:22:52 PM »
So far, I remain unimpressed by the actions of the BSA.  Rather than coming out against any discrimination at the national level, they are simply offering the "option" of accepting gay folks at the local level.  What message is it that they are sending?

I think it goes something like this: "We've lost untold revenue because of our gay ban, so if we change the national policy, nobody can claim we discriminate against gays, because we don't... at least not at the national level."  Problem solved.

Not impressed at all.

Joe

Social change is generally incremental. First you get to eat at a lunch counter, then later you get to vote. It sucks but that's just the way it works.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

 


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