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Author Topic: What to do about Gun Violence?  (Read 13058 times)

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Offline Joe K

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What to do about Gun Violence?
« on: December 15, 2012, 01:15:17 AM »
Since I suggested it, I decided to start this thread so we could discuss gun violence.

To get us started, I am printing Gail Collins column from the New York Times.  I believe she says what many of us feel.

I know topics like this can get heated, so please let's keep our wits about us.  While we may disagree on how to avoid these tragedies, I think we are all united in finding a way to prevent any more of them.

New York Times, December 14, 2012

Looking for America
By GAIL COLLINS

“I’m sorry,” said Representative Carolyn McCarthy, her voice breaking. “I’m having a really tough time.”

She’s the former nurse from Long Island who ran for Congress in 1996 as a crusader against gun violence after her husband and son were victims of a mass shooting on a commuter train. On Friday morning, McCarthy said, she began her day by giving an interview to a journalist who was writing a general story about “how victims feel when a tragedy happens.”

“And then 15 minutes later, a tragedy happens.”

McCarthy, whose husband died and son was critically wounded, is by now a practiced hand at speaking out when a deranged man with a lot of firepower runs amok. But the slaughter of 20 small children and seven adults in Connecticut left her choked up and speechless.

“I just don’t know what this country’s coming to. I don’t know who we are any more,” she said.

President Obama was overwhelmed as well, when he attempted to comfort the nation. It was his third such address in the wake of a soul-wrenching mass shooting. “They had their entire lives ahead of them,” he said, and he had trouble saying anything more.

It was, of course, a tragedy. Yet tragedies happen all the time. Terrible storms strike. Cars crash. Random violence occurs. As long as we’re human, we’ll never be invulnerable.

But when a gunman takes out kindergartners in a bucolic Connecticut suburb, three days after a gunman shot up a mall in Oregon, in the same year as fatal mass shootings in Minneapolis, in Tulsa, in a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, in a theater in Colorado, a coffee bar in Seattle and a college in California — then we’re doing this to ourselves.

We know the story. The shooter is a man, usually a young man, often with a history of mental illness. Sometimes in a rage over a lost job, sometimes just completely unhinged. In the wake of the Newtown shootings, the air was full of experts discussing the importance of psychological counseling. “We need to look at what drives a crazy person to do these kind of actions,” said Representative Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington, one of the highest-ranking Republicans in the House.

Every country has a sizable contingent of mentally ill citizens. We’re the one that gives them the technological power to play god.

This is all about guns — access to guns and the ever-increasing firepower of guns. Over the past few years we’ve seen one shooting after another in which the killer was wielding weapons holding 30, 50, 100 bullets. I’m tired of hearing fellow citizens argue that you need that kind of firepower because it’s a pain to reload when you’re shooting clay pigeons. Or that the founding fathers specifically wanted to make sure Americans retained their right to carry rifles capable of mowing down dozens of people in a couple of minutes.

Recently the Michigan House of Representatives passed and sent to the governor a bill that, among other things, makes it easy for people to carry concealed weapons in schools. After the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday, a spokesman for House Speaker Jase Bolger said that it might have meant “the difference between life and death for many innocent bystanders.” This is a popular theory of civic self-defense that discounts endless evidence that in a sudden crisis, civilians with guns either fail to respond or respond by firing at the wrong target.

It was perhaps the second-most awful remark on one of the worst days in American history, coming up behind Mike Huckabee’s asking that since prayer is banned from public schools, "should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

We will undoubtedly have arguments about whether tougher regulation on gun sales or extra bullet capacity would have made a difference in Connecticut. In a way it doesn’t matter. America needs to tackle gun violence because we need to redefine who we are. We have come to regard ourselves — and the world has come to regard us — as a country that’s so gun happy that the right to traffic freely in the most obscene quantities of weapons is regarded as far more precious than an American’s right to health care or a good education.

We have to make ourselves better. Otherwise, the story from Connecticut is too unspeakable to bear.

Nearly two years ago, after Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head in a mass shooting in Arizona, the White House sent up signals that Obama was preparing to do something. “I wouldn’t rule out that at some point the president talks about the issues surrounding gun violence,” said his press secretary at the time, Robert Gibbs.

On Friday, the president said: “We’re going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.”

Time passes. And here we are.
-----------------------------

To begin the discussion, would someone please explain to me, why anyone needs huge capacity bullet magazines, armour-piercing bullets or automatic weapons that are generally reserved for the military?

Joe

edited to add the following links.  The Charles Blow column is very powerful.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/opinion/blow-a-tragedy-of-silence.html?hp

NYT editorial: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/opinion/death-in-connecticut.html?hp
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:36:54 AM by killfoile »

Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 01:53:36 AM »
Its up to the people in their own country to decide what type of society that they want.

If Americans continue to be apathetic,

(don't blame them due to the level of extreme, extreme, extreme violence in their society which has them very very afraid)

nothing, repeat NOTHING will change.

Special interest groups are so very well organised and have the politicians in their pocket......NRA!!!!!!??

Look at the spectacular outcome of other countries where similar tragedies resulted in serious action, ie Australia, Japan, UK and Ireland as a starter for motivation and a serious analysis of how these countries overcome similar issues as a potential template.

So citizens of the great country of the USA, if you really, really, really, really want change and not just to get on camera and give lip service, it lies with you to get organised and demand change from those that represent you....the type of meaningful action that you believe will stop the escalating madness in your country.

Shit if your govt remains deadlocked and society continues to remains apathetic, if I was living there, I would seriously consider immigrating.......for yourself and your family's future.

sincerely best of luck with the next step......the world is watching
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: What to do about guns?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 02:04:21 AM »
I am not sure what can be done.  I finally went on Facebook.  You have those wanting stricter controls and others saying guns don't kill people--you know the rest.  They say we need armed teachers and armed students in colleges.  I saw a demonstration after Virginia Tech, where they had students armed with fake guns and a man comes in with a weapon.  Every student with the fake gun accidentally shot students in the chaos. 

I saw it reported that the man today used a semi-automatic rifle and two high-powered hand guns.  This could be a starting place.  They say these were bought legally, with a permit from a family member.  I am confused by this.  If true and I understand it correctly, his mother obtained these by using the permit of a family member.  That would seem like they were obtained illegally, to me.  Surely, you cannot buy guns using someones permit.  No one needs semi-automatic guns.  No one needs hand guns that can fire 30 rounds, before needing to reload.  No one needs bullets that explode upon impact, insuring certain death. 

I never saw the second amendment as an individual right.  It says in order to maintain a well-regulated militia.  This was before we had police and true military.  It took a very long time to reload.  But, we aren't going to get rid of the second amendment.  We need tighter laws.  I think it should be a burden to obtain a gun license.  You should have to take a certain amount of safety classes.  There should be a full FBI background check.  If you're diagnosed with a mental disorder, then you should be put on a database.  I know many worry this will cause people to avoid seeking mental health, but it is what it is.  We all had to take a drivers Ed class and take a test to drive.  I can't understand why it is so easy to obtain guns. 

We need better access to mental healthcare.  Many of the people who want guns to have little or no restrictions are often the ones who don't want tax money going to help those in need of help.  Police say they are being out-gunned, since the assault weapon ban was allowed to expire.  And, there is the gun culture.  I don't blame the media and I don't like censorship, but gratuitous violence on TV and in films is rampant.  You can show gruesome murders on CSI, but you can't show a condom ad.  Something is wrong with that.  We love violence, as a country. 

So, reinstating the assault weapon ban is a good place to start.  I also think the large clips should be banned.  We need tougher laws when someone allows their gun to get in hands of anyone it doesn't belong to.  How did he have access to these guns?  Unless something to the contrary comes out, she didn't have these locked up.  This isn't like locking up alcohol.  These are serious weapons.  Her house could have been robbed and these guns in the hands of anyone.  And, that's where many of the guns killing people in the inner-city come from.  They come from the suburbs. 

Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 02:27:06 AM »
I am not sure what can be done.

Try looking overseas for inspiration and potential template. After the Australian shooting at Port Arthur in 1996 where 35 people got massacred, hundreds of thousands of people marched on the streets in all state capital cities to demand tougher gun laws........guess what happened? Yep a steep decline in gun murder!

Apathy reigns in America. Again its up to the people but again don't think the Amercians are willing to organise themselves for the necessary action required. Remember this massacre is not a once off event!

i thank my lucky stars I don't have to feel afraid where i live for myself and my family's safety.
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Offline Jmarksto

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 04:01:31 AM »
Try looking overseas for inspiration and potential template.

Agreed...we should also look outside our boarders to see how we compare in terms of gun violence now.  The US has 9 gun deaths per 100,000 people/year - we are a third world country by gun violence statistics.

Mexico 11
South Africa 9.4
U.S. 9.0
Nicaragua 7.1
Switzerland 6.4
Canada 4.8
Australia 1.0



What these numbers also say is that as terrible and tragic as this event was, there is allot more violence that doesn't get as much press and public outcry -- we have over 75 gun deaths/day in the US.

The numbers speak for themselves, we need gun control.

JM
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 05:58:53 AM »
I wouldn't say the reason there are loose gun laws in the USA is American apathy, on the part of stricter gun control advocates. 

In the current two party system which remains so binary, its up to elected Dems to fight for stricter gun control and they haven't.

I seem to remember many Democrats saying Obama had committed political suicide when he said he wasn't against gay marriage.

A little bit of spine and integrity in elected officials can go a long way. And if you lose, while doing the right thing, and fighting the good fight, its NOT like you can't get a good job.  Obviously elected officials assess the risks - which issues are quicksand and not worth fighting.  Suicide. Not worth losing Democratic power, which could lead to so many bad consequences.  If you cave on one important issue, you only lose one important issue after all.

Must be difficult to play these political games.  But really enough is enough on these endless gun massacres.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 06:00:56 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 06:40:02 AM »
I wouldn't say the reason there are loose gun laws in the USA is American apathy, on the part of stricter gun control advocates. 

In the current two party system which remains so binary, its up to elected Dems to fight for stricter gun control and they haven't.


But Meech, from what I understand there have been several attempts over the years by the Dems to tighten up gun control but it has proved difficult due to the opposition of vested interests, as mentioned previously, and due to their scaremongering.

Take a good look overseas and see what has happened elsewhere in the world (yes developed countries) on this issue. People power' including marching in the steets in protest and demanding effective gun control from the elected govt officials have provided the necessary edge to empower their respective govts to negate any opposition and act.

It is difficult for any govt to ignore tens of 1000's people in multiple cities demanding change!!!!!!

So Meech I don't agree. I again repeat it is really up to the people to say what kind of society they want and let their govt reps know by demonstrating 'people power'....and not just taking the easy route and writing letters!!!!!

No more excuses to pass the buck......little children continue to die. Vested interests will more than likely have to soften their opposition and forced to back down enabling for necessary action to take place.

From looking at history and how things have transpired in the US on this issue, the people have continued by and large (except for notable exceptions) to leave it up to the govt. reps to make the first moves which have resulted in continued lack of action and progress.

So yes apathy will continue at the local public level and so tragically Americans will lay in wait for the next massacre and people will continue to remain afraid.

I wish I am wrong and really hope that the American public will take ownership and finally say enough is enough. Hope this is the final straw for them!

Not convinced though........despite surveys indicating that most Americans are in favour of tighter gun control.......and they will continue to wait on elected govt officials to take the lead......seems like a big mistake.

So sickened by yesterday's tragedy!! I have a child of the same age and can not imagine what the parents of lost ones are going through.

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Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 09:39:25 AM »
 We do need stricter gun control. No doubt about it. I am a gun owner, and it is way too easy for someone to buy a gun. The issue is there are many people who want to go to the extremes on either end..some want a complete gun ban and others thing current restrictions are too tough.
 As I see it there are several issues that should be delt with. First, there are more guns in America than there are people. So, lets say we do come up with good comprehensive gun control legislation, what about the guns currently out there? How do we ensure that those weapons are not moved into the black market were there is no control? How do we realistically regulate the millions of weapons already in the hands of our citizens?
 Second, we need to take a look at society. By that I mean the onslaught of imagery through movies, youtube, and video games that our children are exposed to everyday. I find it difficult to think that with the video games that encourage one too kill with increasingly realistic graphics has no impact on young children. In many cases these kids are allowed to play these games and watch violent movies with no oversight from their parents.
 The average shooter in these incidents is not the thugs from the inner cities, it is the early 20's white teen boy, who for whatever reason is pissed at society, or his school, or whatever.
 I think as parents we need to look at ourselves, are we raising our children and becoming involved or do we allow television, the internet, and xbox live to babysit our kids and teens. One of the things that stuck out for me after the Columbine shootings was that one of the mothers made a statement that she was unaware that her son had several weapons in his bedroom. I'm am sorry, Mom, but that is your fault. My kids think that I "invade" their privacy, but I refuse to ever be a parent who says "I didn't know"
 To stop tragedies such as this is going to take a lot more than gun control, but it will involve gun control..and gun control is a good place to start..
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »

So Meech I don't agree. I again repeat it is really up to the people to say what kind of society they want and let their govt reps know by demonstrating 'people power'....and not just taking the easy route and writing letters!!!!!


Well of course you may be right. Nothing wrong with people's movements.

There were popular protests against Bush Jr's Iraq war and  Dems still voted for it. I thought that was very cynical survival politics on the part of Dems.  I watched Powell's speech to the UN and it was obvious the case was feeble. 

Obama mentioned gun control after these tragedies -- but where was gun control in the election. Few office holders wanted to touch it.  That's all I'm saying.

So I guess elected Dems and the voting public both share responsibly for inaction? 

(It was clear in the last presidential election that people thought the very rich are getting an unfair deal in the US. This, after a mass people's protest that went on for a long time, the year before the election.  But finally you end up with congress and state legislatures that won't follow the people's will.)

I read editorials over the years about people who are torn apart losing loved ones in these gun massacres. They go on to fight for gun control, and then finally get dispirited and discouraged with the wall of denial among legislators.

On this issue, on so many others, perhaps the dems (who seem to be the party interested in gun control) need to play as down and dirty and hardline and stubborn as the Republicans do on their issues.  At least you could finally get a compromise and some new gun control.  Better than nothing.  Better than a bunch of idiotic "script readings" of boiler-plate condolences and "let's not play politics".
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 09:53:14 AM by mecch »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 09:54:03 AM »

Apathy reigns in America. Again its up to the people but again don't think the Amercians are willing to organise themselves for the necessary action required. Remember this massacre is not a once off event!safety.


Obviously since you don't live here you don't realize the difference involved with getting things done in a country of 22 million and one of 311 million. The NYC metropolitan area is the size of Australia's entire population. If it was a single area I assure you it would have had strict gun control laws previous to 1996.
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 10:02:24 AM »
There is also, in some of these editorials, the idea that people "don't recognize" what America has become. 

Of course these massacres are shocking!! 

But i do recognize that its political and the result of how elected representatives cowtow to their voting blocks. 

(Edited to add:  So what sucks is that Republicans in congress - you would expect them to be smarter than their voting block, and certainly smarter than the crackpots who are for unlimited gun rights.  To vote rationally. So here I want a humanist smart Republican official, who doesn't represent his voting block. But I want the opposite for Dems. There we have the voting block clearly for strict gun control, and our elected party members infuriatingly mute.)

I find it hard to believe that most of the current 47 Republican Senators favor freely available assault weapons.  And Christian prayer in public schools.  And putting American soldiers in harms way for how many more years on a lost cause in Afghanistan.  And no abortions.  And... so on and so on.  If that is really true, God help us all. 

What a dark hole.  Republicans playing to the peanut gallery's cockamamy ideas about their "right" to own assault weapons, and carry concealed weapons everywhere.  And the Dems tip-toing around the sleeping monster. 

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 11:54:24 AM by mecch »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 10:24:22 AM »
Some of you may be interested in reading this simply because it's more data driven than most.
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 10:49:13 AM »
I think the lack of response from legislators is pretty much shared by both party's , after all it is one of the sacred rails of politics right up there with abortion and entitlements .

I honestly cant think of any solution that will put a dent in these horrible mass killings , especially for the short term . I recently , and I might add reluctantly bought a hand gun . I was in and out of the gun store with a semi automatic pistol with ammunition in less than 25 minutes , yes I timed it . They ran a background check while I waited and chatted with the sales person . It took two weeks and $7.50 to obtain a concealed carry permit , something a person who intends to use it for a massacre wouldn't have botherd with .

You hear about gun violence once in awhile in Chicago or other places where people are dying every single day but not nearly as much as you do when this happens in suburbia or a mall . If strict gun laws were enacted and it took 50 years to make a difference I would still support it . I just don't know what the answer is but I do hope a solution is found .     

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 10:53:47 AM »
I think the lack of response from legislators is pretty much shared by both party's , after all it is one of the sacred rails of politics right up there with abortion and entitlements .     

There's a huge difference between "shared" and "shared equally", Mr. Gun-Lovin' Southerner.
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 11:13:23 AM »
There's a huge difference between "shared" and "shared equally", Mr. Gun-Lovin' Southerner.

I am only protecting my Klonny horde from you rabid Yankees .   

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 11:13:52 AM »
Let me first say I have not researched the topic of gun control but I suspect that stricter gun control laws, while possibly reducing gun related deaths, are not going to address the underlying problem. I think it is analogous to reducing drug use by making drugs more difficult to obtain. There is something in the mindset of Americans that needs to be addressed for real change to happen. For example, I don't own a gun because I don't want to shoot and kill anyone. Period. If I felt the need to protect myself I would chose non-lethal means of doing so. People don't seem to connect that when you buy a handgun "for protection" it doesn't really protect you unless you are willing to pull the trigger and risk killing someone. Are you willing to kill someone? If the answer is yes what does that say about you, particularly given there are other options for protection.

Offline mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 11:37:54 AM »
i doubt any changes that our country will make with gun control laws will "solve" the entire problem, but it can solve PART of the problem.

doing nothing should not be an option.

one can get out on the streets to protest or take the time to write to your congressman. i would commend both.
we should all demand more from those who we put in office.

the people on this website know better than most that silence=death.
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Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 11:38:36 AM »
Obviously since you don't live here you don't realize the difference involved with getting things done in a country of 22 million and one of 311 million. The NYC metropolitan area is the size of Australia's entire population. If it was a single area I assure you it would have had strict gun control laws previous to 1996.

Come on!!! Of course it would be more difficult for a population of >300mio to enact change. You missed my point entirely.

I am hoping to encourage discussion about potentially for Joe citizen to take back his neighbourhood and society and how he may be able to demand what kind of place he wants to live in for himself and his children..... including what gun control measures he is comfortable with.

Every country is different and will demand different level of gun restrictions which is great and up to them to decide.

In other 'developed' countries of the world, where similar violent episodes have occured in the past, public groundswell of support has often been the catalyst of change. Despite the challenges unique to the US, (including large population), I just don't see this kind of groundswell in the US. This is my point. Maybe this latest massacre will enact action from the people!?

Maybe the citizens are now so more accustomed,  resigned maybe to the level of violence there and/or perhaps feel jaded that their voices will never be heard?.....evidence perhaps of the belief that the law makers are not really interested in representing their demands? Only the people living in the US there will know the answer to that!

Just sincerely hope, as the law makers are letting down what is essentially a kind and gracious nation, the people can take the batton and demand change from their lawmakers and better protect the innocent.

......oh by the way Ms P...... I love the country and (most) of its people, have visited over 39 states, lived there for more than 5 years and actively correspond with a great bunch of unfortunately increasingly disillusioned friends there.
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 12:07:41 PM »
Let me first say I have not researched the topic of gun control but I suspect that stricter gun control laws, while possibly reducing gun related deaths, are not going to address the underlying problem. I think it is analogous to reducing drug use by making drugs more difficult to obtain. There is something in the mindset of Americans that needs to be addressed for real change to happen. For example, I don't own a gun because I don't want to shoot and kill anyone. Period. If I felt the need to protect myself I would chose non-lethal means of doing so. People don't seem to connect that when you buy a handgun "for protection" it doesn't really protect you unless you are willing to pull the trigger and risk killing someone. Are you willing to kill someone? If the answer is yes what does that say about you, particularly given there are other options for protection.

I see the issue as the underlying problem as well and you make a few good points . I hate to steer the conversation away from how do you keep guns out of the hands of emotionally disturbed people and criminals to one of do you have a right to defend your self but since you brought it up .

I can barely push a self propelled lawn mower due to some health issues , so doing combat is not really an option nor is swinging a stick or getting close enough to taser someone . If some one was breaking in my house and didn't stop when I warned them away I would be sure they meant me real harm . Its not a matter would I shoot a man for wanting to steal my stuff , its a matter of personal safety . If I harmed a person I would carry that remorse to my grave ... but I would carry it there at a much later date if luck be with me .   

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 12:17:35 PM »
If the answer is yes what does that say about you, particularly given there are other options for protection.

What does it say about that person Ford? Please elaborate

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »
The "underlying cause" BS... gotta love it. The only thing underlying everything is the amount of guns in the US, which is the largest per capita in the entire world. #2 is Yemen and they only have half the amount per person. Is it too much to ask that some of you do a bit of research and use some actual data?
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 12:26:08 PM »
The "underlying cause" BS... gotta love it. The only thing underlying everything is the amount of guns in the US, which is the largest per capita in the entire world. #2 is Yemen and they only have half the amount per person. Is it too much to ask that some of you do a bit of research and use some actual data?

Who said that isn't an underlying cause . Hand guns are made for killing people or shooting at paper at a gun range if your easily amused . I'm for no guns , no army's , no nukes but there are underlying causes for all manner of insanity that fuels this debate . 

Besides , my gun is going to be pretty once I get all the rinestones in the right place . 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:29:22 PM by jg1962 »

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 12:29:34 PM »
Who said that isn't an underlying cause . Hand guns are made for killing people or shooting at paper at a gun range if your easily amused . I'm for no guns , no army's , no nukes but there are underlying causes for all manner of insanity that fuels this debate . 

No, it's actually quite simple -- all you have to do is compare it to Japan which has the most strict gun laws for a developed country.
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Offline hope_for_a_cure

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 12:30:10 PM »
When I lived in Washington DC back in early and into the mid 1990's, I remember the local news every morning would start out with news about shootings that took place overnight.  These were mainly territorial drug dealer related for the most part.  It is sad for me to say, but I became somewhat accustom to this type of news and after hearing/seeing so much of it, the impact on me was less shocking.  I became numb to it.

News of these mass shootings (malls, theaters, schools, etc) that are becoming more and more numerous unveils a much larger problem.  Some will say that funds needed to contain pathological killers, insane people threatening others, etc. have dried up and more money should be provided for such.  We should be wondering why people are unable to communicate face to face with others and resolve problems out in the open. What is the source of all this anger? Why is all of this being repressed until it manifests itself in volcanic proportions? 

There will be no quick or simple solution. 

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 12:46:24 PM »
Do we repeal the Second Amendment and take away every gun in the US? If so how do we keep the guns from coming in from Mexico and other places? We cant even keep the coke out. I think a few of you think this is feasible, if thats the case then lets discuss it, otherwise lets agree that there will be some guns in privately owned homes in the US and work from there...
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »
No, it's actually quite simple -- all you have to do is compare it to Japan which has the most strict gun laws for a developed country.

I actually agree with what you are saying , there is no getting around the fact that access to guns is why the problem exist here . The statistics in other country's speak for themselves .

When I say I haven't a clue how to make things better I'm really saying how do we convince a nation to amend the constitution or at least interpret it in such a way that laws can be passed so as to start the long process of disarming the country . And good luck with that , I think the baptist Church's will be doing gay weddings long before this day comes .     

Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 01:16:58 PM »
Do we repeal the Second Amendment and take away every gun in the US? If so how do we keep the guns from coming in from Mexico and other places? We cant even keep the coke out. I think a few of you think this is feasible, if thats the case then lets discuss it, otherwise lets agree that there will be some guns in privately owned homes in the US and work from there...

See that's always the leap that discussing "gun control" means abolishing the second amendment. It doesn't. Even the rank and file members of the NRA when polled agree that we need stricter background checks.

Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 01:24:26 PM »
I'm not sure what the answer may be, but I don't think it's merely the number, or type of guns in the US that is the root of the problem.  I've been living in Canada now, for five years and the first thing I noticed, after moving here, is how much of American culture is based on aggression and violence.  It seems that there is so much anger in America, about so many topics and far too many people have no issue with using violence against their fellow citizens.

Granted, our population is 1/10 that of the States, yet Canadian culture is so very different.  I suppose the biggest change I noticed is how citizens here interact with each other and even when we have differences, there remains an underlying civility and respect.  When President Obama was elected, our friends here were appalled with the reactions of many Americans, especially Republicans and the rabid right wing fanatics.  It did not go unnoticed that gun sales in the US soared and continue to do so, after his re-election.

It seems to me that many Americans no longer see their fellow Americans as citizens, as much as segments to be demeaned and marginalized.  Hearing and seeing the rhetoric that comes from elected officials, for whatever reason, seems to be degrading the quality of life for far too many Americans.  I can't help but think that for many people, having guns may provide them with some type of personal empowerment, because society has become indifferent to their plight.

Watching the last election was very hard for me.  To see Americans at each others throats was very difficult.  Yes politics is not for the faint of heart, but it doesn't demand that you lack a heart.  Having prominent Americans espousing ideas that half the country are deadbeats or inferring that many are morally inferior because they do not share the same faith, just seems so destructive.  The idea of shared sacrifice or doing what is good for the country, appears to become less important as each day passes.

We have groups who spend millions, convincing one group of Americans, to hate another group and that cannot help but to breed resentment and distrust of each other.  I believe this is why any comprehensive gun control is unable to gain a foothold, because far too many Americans no longer trust their fellow citizens, nor their elected representatives.

Joe

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 01:26:14 PM »
See that's always the leap that discussing "gun control" means abolishing the second amendment. It doesn't. Even the rank and file members of the NRA when polled agree that we need stricter background checks.

It wasnt a "leap" I was trying to understand where to start the discussion.

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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2012, 02:30:20 PM »
For what it's worth here is my perspective as a gun owner (of multiple weapons)...

To many of you I am a pariah, or somehow skewed merely because I own a gun.  Some people say that I "cling to my right to carry weapons" with images of me drooling as I clean my weapons at the kitchen table. I don't carry weapons. My weapons are locked up tight with trigger locks, except for one which is hidden near my bed. Most of the firearms I own were inherited. Most are hunting rifles, like my fathers deer rifle. Most I've never shot. One is from my great uncle who was a San Antonio detective and was killed in the line of duty, one is an antique revolver from WW1 carried by a family member. I suppose you could call me an impromptu collector. They are kinda "cool" but that's it. It's neat to take them out and tell the stories surrounding them. But it's been years since Ive last done that. Could I do without them, certainly. Would I be willing to give them up tomorrow, no problem.

I keep a semiautomatic Pistol near my bed, hidden. If you were not me it would take you several minutes to find it if you could find it at all. Am I afraid I am going to be murdered each and every night from a phantom intruder, not really. Am I comfortable in the fact that it is there if I need it, yes. Do I sleep just as well away from home without it, sure I do.

Outside of a Repeal of the Second amendment, I don't think there is anything I would not agree to in relation to gun control. I am for an Assault weapons ban, I am for a ban on high capacity cartridges, I am even willing to entertain a ban on Semiautomatics and give up my bedside Semiautomatic pistol and replace it with my 38 revolver.

I'm not sure why the mother involved in this incident felt a need to have this type of assault rifle, I hear reports she was a gun collector. I dont understand the need to collect those types of weapons.

Yes, easy access to guns magnified this tragedy exponentially. These children were executed with precision, probably head shots. Not just shot random bursts of gunfire. Hence, no survivors. What causes a person to do this?

What was happening in this guys mind before he decided to pick up guns to rectify whatever was paining him? What happened to his Empathy, where did it go? More importantly what is happening in our society that is causing these people to do this? Is it the graphic "Modern Warfare" type shoot-em up games that is commonplace in most every 12year old boys room? Are these games numbing our society? Is it TV? I just watched a CSI Miami show that was very graphic and portrayed a butchered person and showed bloody pieces of a human body, but we see this every day on tv, it's now common place.

Is it music? Is it Rap music glorifying shooting and killing?

Is it the parents?

We've dont nothing to contol guns, but we've also done nothing towards understanding the phenomena of what drives these people to kill innocents like this. Progress has to be made on both fronts.







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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2012, 02:35:38 PM »
Clearly the cause is rap music, and by extension the colored man.

Some people say that I "cling to my right to carry weapons" with images of me drooling as I clean my weapons

yes, yes & yes

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 02:37:51 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2012, 02:39:32 PM »
What was happening in this guys mind before he decided to pick up guns to rectify whatever was paining him? What happened to his Empathy, where did it go?

Will,

I too wonder how someone can lose all empathy for others and I found this article that provides a fairly decent explanation as to how it happens.

Joe

Who would kill children?
By Dr. Keith Ablow
FoxNews - Published December 14, 2012

After the horrific events of Friday at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, an understandable and frequent question has been, "What sort of person can shoot innocent children?"

The answer to that question, in short, is this:  1) Certainly, someone who has lost the capacity for human empathy--that God-given quality that allows us to resonate with the suffering of others, and 2) Probably, someone who is, probably unconsciously, making a statement about the random nature of destructiveness, about how innocence and youth confer no safety upon an individual, and about how his rage--likely unexamined and left to fester underground--knows no bounds.

The psychiatric diagnoses that can be connected to a lack of empathy are numerous.  Someone can have fallen victim to schizophrenia and be suffering the delusion that others must die to save the earth.  Hence, there is no grief for the people who must die.  Someone can be drug dependent and inebriated to the point that his core empathy is suppressed, due to intoxication.  Someone can be personality disordered--a "sociopath" who steals, cheats and commits violent acts without guilt.

Yet, these diagnoses still don't speak to the underlying cause of someone losing empathy.  What about that?  Regardless of what diagnosis we speak of, we still need to think about what causes those conditions marked by having little or no feeling for others.

Perhaps there is a genetic vulnerability in such individuals.  Perhaps there is a defect in the serotonin (a calming brain chemical messenger) systems of such people.  Perhaps head trauma can play a role in damaging the frontal lobes. Some will even claim symptoms of autism could be involved. But consider this:  In every case I have ever treated in which empathy is in short supply or absent, it was eroded through suffering inflicted upon that person himself or herself, usually early in life.  Psychological trauma--whether chronic or acute--has been present in every violent person I have ever evaluated during the past two decades.

In the case of the shooter in Connecticut, Adam Lanza, 20, now deceased, we must, sadly, imagine someone so devoid of empathy that he could shoot one child after another, seeing each go lifeless, ignoring the shock and terror on the faces of the victims, ignoring the grief being visited upon so many families.  And such a person is, without question, an individual entirely without empathy, and, therefore, by definition, severely mentally ill.

I have not evaluated anyone in Adam Lanza's family.  But the fact that he reportedly killed his mother by shooting her in the face, then left 18 dead children as his legacy, would make any psychiatrist with grounding in psychological reasoning wonder whether the 18 children represented what was "dead" inside him (psychologically or spiritually), and whether he believed--rationally or irrationally--that his mother was complicit in his demise.  That terrible canvas of bloodshed would paint the picture of a tortured life.  That would square with #2 above--namely a child killer's likely underlying, even entirely unconscious, belief (perhaps learned firsthand) that destruction is random, that innocence and youth is no protection and that rage knowing no bounds can, nonetheless, be denied by a force of will, or buried with substances, or kept under wraps through silence--which, ultimately, is the path to it exploding out of a person.

I am reminded tonight of Charles Manson who, upon considering that he might face the death penalty, said something very close to, "You can't kill me; I'm already dead."

The myth of vampires is instructive here--those living dead among us out for the blood of others, taking it with no remorse and no feeling for those who fall to the ground, lifeless, because they are lifeless, too.

Adam Lanza opened the door to a new kind of horror in America--the massacre of children.  The likelihood that he was, for all intents and purposes, destroyed just as early on, is not 100 percent, but it is very high.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/12/14/who-would-kill-children/print#ixzz2F9Q07DIs

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2012, 02:46:58 PM »
At the heart of being able to discuss and address gun control and gun violence is an understanding of the intent of the forefathers in the inclusion of the 2nd Amendment....

This has always been the point of contention of pro-gun control and anti-gun control groups....

Interesting to note that the 2nd amendment says:
As passed by the Congress:A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Keep in mind that the 2nd amendment was all about alleviating the fear of the states of the formation of a centralized form of government. States wanted to be sure that they would have the ability to have the means to uprise against a centralized government that became tyrannical - like the government that they had fled in England.

Because the militia was made up of individuals, the rights of individuals to possess arms was seen as essential to a "well-regulated militia."

Now, we have to ask if it was the intent of the forefathers for individuals to possess arms as an individual means of self-defense; if it was their intent for individuals to possess semi-automatic arms; and exactly what they meant by "well-regulated" militia....

Constitutionalists have argued over this issue - as have the courts - for years.

I doubt the forefathers foresaw a time when the federal government would have nuclear weapons and other arms that would render the intent of states maintaining their freedom through a well-regulated militia and the unabridged right of individuals to bear arms a moot point.

Central to gun violence aren't guns, but rather violence. We have become a society that is comfortable with seeing multiple acts of violence portrayed on television, in the movies, in music, on video games, etc. Our society is more likely to ban video games, movies, music, etc. with sexual overtones than it is those with violent overtones.

I do think that the issue of gun control - whatever form that may take - is going to start by having a collective "think tank" of scholars of the Constitution discuss the intent of the 2nd amendment and whether that intent is still valid in 2012 (and, if not, how should that be rectified).
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Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2012, 02:49:32 PM »
One suggestion for gun control in America, might be to look to other countries for ideas.  Canadians have come up with a pretty good system for gun purchasing and registration.  Here, you must wait 28 days before you can purchase a gun, AND you need to have the support of two people to vouch for you.

Just a thought.

Joe

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2012, 02:55:45 PM »

Keep in mind that the 2nd amendment was all about alleviating the fear of the states of the formation of a centralized form of government.

So you're saying it had nothing to do with the fact that there was no standing army?

linky

Quote
The court last examined this issue in 1939 in United States v. Miller. There it held that the Second Amendment was designed to ensure the effectiveness of the militia, not to guarantee a private right to possess firearms. The Miller case, though it did not fully explore the entire constitutional history, has guided the government's position on firearm issues for the past six decades.

If the court were to take up the two cases on appeal, it is far from clear that the Justice Department's new position would prevail. The plain text of the Second Amendment -- ''A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed'' -- does not support the unequivocal view that Mr. Ashcroft and Mr. Olson have put forth. The amendment refers to the right of the people, rather than the individual person of the Fifth Amendment. And the phrase ''keep and bear arms'' is, as most commentators note, a military reference.

Nor do the debates surrounding the adoption of the amendment support the idea that the framers were thinking of an individual right to own arms. The relevant proposals offered by the state ratification conventions of 1787-88 all dealt with the need to preserve the militia as an alternative to a standing army. The only recorded discussion of the amendment in the House of Representatives concerned whether religious dissenters should be compelled to serve in the militia. And in 1789, the Senate deleted one clause explicitly defining the militia as ''composed of the body of the people.'' In excising this phrase, the Senate gave ''militia'' a narrower meaning than it otherwise had
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Offline buginme2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2012, 03:02:23 PM »
Even if the forefathers had intended for people to be armed (regardless of forming a militia) that was over two hundred years ago.  Can we not update or change a law to the betterment of society? 

Or do we all subscribe to Scalia's interpretation of the consitution that it is rigid and unable to change over time?

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2012, 03:08:38 PM »
I'm fairly sure that Ben Franklin would laugh at Scalia.
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2012, 03:34:02 PM »
My point was exactly that..
There was no "standing" army.... the militia was made up of individuals - thus, in order for free states to have a well regulated militia the right of individuals to bear arms should be unabridged...

I don't see how what I said could have been construed any differently -
I also think I also put in my response that some constitutional scholars probably need to be at the center of a think tank to see how the 2nd amendment still applies today; if it applies; or if changes are needed.

One of my areas of focus - and an area I actually enjoy studying - is constitutional law....
In order to fully understand the Constitution, one has to (as I'm sure we agree) be aware of the timeframe in which it was being written; who it was being written by; and the history that led up to each part of its introduction, as well as the fighting, politics, etc. that took place in getting the states to ratify each part of it.

Of course, this is one of the reasons that America will never get anywhere on this issue..... because people want to "nit-pick" every element that might even slightly, remotely get us into the ballpark of having a meaningful dialogue that could lead to change....  Nothing surprising. Status quo that some will stay stuck in the problem without ever taking a meaningful step toward the solution or offering one. I/J/S.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2012, 03:39:20 PM »
One suggestion for gun control in America, might be to look to other countries for ideas.  Canadians have come up with a pretty good system for gun purchasing and registration.  Here, you must wait 28 days before you can purchase a gun, AND you need to have the support of two people to vouch for you.


I like this, it's an excellent starting point.


Will,



Who would kill children?
By Dr. Keith Ablow
FoxNews - Published December 14, 2012



Interesting read Joe.

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2012, 04:09:59 PM »
My point was exactly that..
There was no "standing" army.... the militia was made up of individuals - thus, in order for free states to have a well regulated militia the right of individuals to bear arms should be unabridged...

I don't see how what I said could have been construed any differently -

I construed your comments, or parts of it, as a somewhat insurrectionist interpretation of the 2nd amendment, which is a decidedly recent (relatively) right-wing reading.

One suggestion for gun control in America, might be to look to other countries for ideas.  Canadians have come up with a pretty good system for gun purchasing and registration.  Here, you must wait 28 days before you can purchase a gun, AND you need to have the support of two people to vouch for you.


In Japan a gun owner must also pass a mental competency examination (at the gun owner's cost) and be re-certified annually.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:11:45 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline bocker3

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2012, 04:23:11 PM »
The intractability of this issue rests on a whole host of issues -- many being discussed here.  However, IMO, it is first and foremost about the immense power of the NRA.  This lobby will not give an inch on any issue connected to guns and the control of them.  People will say that they are for background  checks, but that is not entirely true at all.  Here in, good ol' VA, one can buy a gun or many guns at a "gun show" with nary a check.  If it is classifiec as a "person to person" sale, no background check.  Whenever it is suggested to close this "loophole", the NRA swoop in with $$ and bodies to fight the change.
So, while background checks and waiting periods would be a fantastic start -- don't fool yourselves -- it ain't happening.  The NRA has deep pockets and will use them to defeat politicians, if they can't outright purchase the politician's vote.

So -- to answer another poster -- why don't the people "rise up" and demand things.  It's simple -- money talks louder and as Joe pointed out, this country has been dissected into demographics and elections are all about appealing to the right combo of them to win.  No one is trying to reach any vast swath of the electorate -- they are simply trying to get that one necessary vote to come out on top.

Money is behind power -- The NRA, AARP, and many other lobbies control this country.  You can't have meaningful dialogue on guns without a mobilization of the NRA.  Neither, can you talk about any changes to SS or Medicare with the AARP investing millions in ad campaigns.  Lobbies exist today to keep the status quo -- to the benefit of their members, even if it results in detrimental blow back to others.

So -- let's start by trying (in vain, most likely) to actually have complete background checks and/or waiting periods to purchase guns -- because we simply aren't there yet.

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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2012, 04:31:29 PM »
The larger issue in terms of the NRA, is that they claim to champion the rights of the gun owner, but that's a mere proxy tactic. What they really champion (and why their pockets are so deep) are the gun manufacturers. And the domestic sales are but a small part of the equation. The US is the #1 firearm manufacturer in the world, providing 3/4 of the total world trade in this. It's a huge amount of money -- and from 2010 to 2011 sales tripled with a Democrat administration approving these exports. So when you think items only say "Made in China" and that the US doesn't manufacture things anymore think again.
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Offline mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2012, 04:54:49 PM »
constitutional issues aside,
i think i speak for many when asking a rather simple question:

why are so many obsessed with guns?

i will preface this by saying that the only gun i ever owned was a bb gun as a child.
a short-lived phase of target practice akin (and probably a step beyond) to shooting a water gun into a clowns mouth at the local fair in hopes of winning a plush toy prize.

i do not even understand those who enjoy hunting for "sport".
those who hunt for food is another story. i am not a vegetarian and accept that others are doing my killing for me. still not a pleasant thought but i know i am playing a role in these animals deaths.

automatic and semi-automatic weapons? the need and/or desire to own is beyond me.

self protection?
afraid of the federal government? (lot's of luck if this is your reason!)

i just don't get it.

collectors? (why?, sorry, still do not understand.)

why do people feel comforted in owning a product that is designed to kill?

just thought i would ask some really basic questions here that have never been answered to my satisfaction.

an understanding of the mindset and rational of gun ownership needs to be discussed in greater detail.
i highly doubt those involved in mass shootings give a damn about the constitutional rights of gun ownership.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:19:24 PM by mitch777 »
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Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 05:18:58 PM »
why do people feel comforted in owning a product that is designed to kill?

Hey Mitch,

I can offer one reason, my own.  I was in an abusive relationship and I found the power of law enforcement to be very limited in protecting me from my abuser.  I followed all the rules, went through the courts, but unless you have a police officer following you around, you remain vulnerable to someone with an unstable mind.

By the time I left my abuser, it was clear to me that he would do anything, and I do mean anything to hurt me for leaving him.  It was then that I felt something that I had never experienced before, abject fear for my own safety.  I took a firearms course and bought my first gun.  I hate guns, simply because their only purpose is to kill things.  But I hated the thought of being killed by my ex, so I did what I felt I had to do to protect me.

When I moved to Canada, I no longer had the need for a gun and I gave it away.

Sometimes, no matter what intent our heart may hold, we do something we would normally not do, because reality dictates that we have few, or no other options.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:27:22 PM by killfoile »

Offline mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2012, 05:29:07 PM »
Joe,
understood.

an honest answer.

glad to hear you got rid of it when the need no longer existed.
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2012, 05:55:48 PM »
Let me get this straight.  Dr. Ablow, representing the right, argues that sociopaths who become mass murderers were abused children.  So this supports the idea that it is (1) society's ills (child abuse) and the (2) evil destiny of some sociopaths, that culminates in massacres committed with automatic assault weapons. 

Taking the focus and heat off the guns in the process.

Over interest in the criminal and overcooked pop psychology, aside, why not remove the weapons?  Since we have all these abused psychopaths and potential mass murderers, laying low, Boo Radley style, in the shadows. When they crack they'll reach for the guns -- oh wait - they wont have them, and they simply won't be able to kill as many and so quickly.

(Dr. Ablow was the life-coach/shrink who said Biden's head needed examining after the VP debates.)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:57:56 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bmancanfly

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2012, 06:43:45 PM »
You mean this Dr Ablow?
http://equalitymatters.org/blog/201109260010

I generally don't put a lot of stock in anything he has to say.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2012, 07:42:23 PM »
Yeah one and the same, and author of the opinion posted by Killfolie.

There may be a grain of truth in what he says. But its apples and oranges man. Every country surely has its share of social ills, and produces its psychopaths. 

Another right-wing political point is argued on nebulous and rather irrelevant social challenges such as:  "we need to cure society's ills and take care of the mentally insane." 

Oh yeah right. And 47% of the country has a victim mentality and wants to free-load on the state because they have character flaws and are basically good for nothings. (instead of, hmm, radical idea - living wages for the workers and a fair tax burden on the super-rich...)

Bunch of mumbo jumbo. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 07:44:14 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Jody

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
To add to the eloquent posts by killfoile and everyone else here...As was stated by Morgan Freeman and others this unstable man gets his name in lights by committing such an atrocity.  He feels he will make a name for himself by doing an evil act and killing little boys and girls.  The media makes a name for these guys and no one remembers the victims names. 

A gun control law, along with background checks and waiting periods that bocker speaks of are of course prudent ideas.  But since this is such a large, underground business it would seemingly not keep these weapons out of the hands of a wannabee lunatic.  The proliferation of weapons in this nation is sick.

I have always been grateful to America, despite a history of growth on the backs of the native peoples who were here centuries before Europeans and were nearly wiped out in their Holocaust.  This country took in my grandparents for its Industrial revolution and gave them hope and food and work and I am blessed to have had a good life to date, HIV aside.  So besides my appreciation we have also accomplished what no other people have anywhere at anytime.  People worldwide clamor for our technology, our music, movies, scientists and scholars, to come to our schools and universities and to visit our shores.  But we also lead the world in gun manufacturing and the taking of anti-depressants and other drugs, including Ritalin for otherwise restless children.  It is not a great combination.

In sadness for the incredible grief of the people of Newtown, CT. and humanity.

Jody :'(
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".
 "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

Grateful Dead

Offline Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2012, 08:13:46 PM »
If I hear one more reporter ask a grieving parent or child how did it make you feel I'm going to scream . I am not going to be watching the news for a few days now .

 


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