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Author Topic: What to do about Gun Violence?  (Read 11167 times)

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Offline Joe K

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What to do about Gun Violence?
« on: December 15, 2012, 01:15:17 AM »
Since I suggested it, I decided to start this thread so we could discuss gun violence.

To get us started, I am printing Gail Collins column from the New York Times.  I believe she says what many of us feel.

I know topics like this can get heated, so please let's keep our wits about us.  While we may disagree on how to avoid these tragedies, I think we are all united in finding a way to prevent any more of them.

New York Times, December 14, 2012

Looking for America
By GAIL COLLINS

ďIím sorry,Ē said Representative Carolyn McCarthy, her voice breaking. ďIím having a really tough time.Ē

Sheís the former nurse from Long Island who ran for Congress in 1996 as a crusader against gun violence after her husband and son were victims of a mass shooting on a commuter train. On Friday morning, McCarthy said, she began her day by giving an interview to a journalist who was writing a general story about ďhow victims feel when a tragedy happens.Ē

ďAnd then 15 minutes later, a tragedy happens.Ē

McCarthy, whose husband died and son was critically wounded, is by now a practiced hand at speaking out when a deranged man with a lot of firepower runs amok. But the slaughter of 20 small children and seven adults in Connecticut left her choked up and speechless.

ďI just donít know what this countryís coming to. I donít know who we are any more,Ē she said.

President Obama was overwhelmed as well, when he attempted to comfort the nation. It was his third such address in the wake of a soul-wrenching mass shooting. ďThey had their entire lives ahead of them,Ē he said, and he had trouble saying anything more.

It was, of course, a tragedy. Yet tragedies happen all the time. Terrible storms strike. Cars crash. Random violence occurs. As long as weíre human, weíll never be invulnerable.

But when a gunman takes out kindergartners in a bucolic Connecticut suburb, three days after a gunman shot up a mall in Oregon, in the same year as fatal mass shootings in Minneapolis, in Tulsa, in a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, in a theater in Colorado, a coffee bar in Seattle and a college in California ó then weíre doing this to ourselves.

We know the story. The shooter is a man, usually a young man, often with a history of mental illness. Sometimes in a rage over a lost job, sometimes just completely unhinged. In the wake of the Newtown shootings, the air was full of experts discussing the importance of psychological counseling. ďWe need to look at what drives a crazy person to do these kind of actions,Ē said Representative Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington, one of the highest-ranking Republicans in the House.

Every country has a sizable contingent of mentally ill citizens. Weíre the one that gives them the technological power to play god.

This is all about guns ó access to guns and the ever-increasing firepower of guns. Over the past few years weíve seen one shooting after another in which the killer was wielding weapons holding 30, 50, 100 bullets. Iím tired of hearing fellow citizens argue that you need that kind of firepower because itís a pain to reload when youíre shooting clay pigeons. Or that the founding fathers specifically wanted to make sure Americans retained their right to carry rifles capable of mowing down dozens of people in a couple of minutes.

Recently the Michigan House of Representatives passed and sent to the governor a bill that, among other things, makes it easy for people to carry concealed weapons in schools. After the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday, a spokesman for House Speaker Jase Bolger said that it might have meant ďthe difference between life and death for many innocent bystanders.Ē This is a popular theory of civic self-defense that discounts endless evidence that in a sudden crisis, civilians with guns either fail to respond or respond by firing at the wrong target.

It was perhaps the second-most awful remark on one of the worst days in American history, coming up behind Mike Huckabeeís asking that since prayer is banned from public schools, "should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

We will undoubtedly have arguments about whether tougher regulation on gun sales or extra bullet capacity would have made a difference in Connecticut. In a way it doesnít matter. America needs to tackle gun violence because we need to redefine who we are. We have come to regard ourselves ó and the world has come to regard us ó as a country thatís so gun happy that the right to traffic freely in the most obscene quantities of weapons is regarded as far more precious than an Americanís right to health care or a good education.

We have to make ourselves better. Otherwise, the story from Connecticut is too unspeakable to bear.

Nearly two years ago, after Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head in a mass shooting in Arizona, the White House sent up signals that Obama was preparing to do something. ďI wouldnít rule out that at some point the president talks about the issues surrounding gun violence,Ē said his press secretary at the time, Robert Gibbs.

On Friday, the president said: ďWeíre going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.Ē

Time passes. And here we are.
-----------------------------

To begin the discussion, would someone please explain to me, why anyone needs huge capacity bullet magazines, armour-piercing bullets or automatic weapons that are generally reserved for the military?

Joe

edited to add the following links.  The Charles Blow column is very powerful.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/opinion/blow-a-tragedy-of-silence.html?hp

NYT editorial: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/opinion/death-in-connecticut.html?hp
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:36:54 AM by killfoile »
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Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 01:53:36 AM »
Its up to the people in their own country to decide what type of society that they want.

If Americans continue to be apathetic,

(don't blame them due to the level of extreme, extreme, extreme violence in their society which has them very very afraid)

nothing, repeat NOTHING will change.

Special interest groups are so very well organised and have the politicians in their pocket......NRA!!!!!!??

Look at the spectacular outcome of other countries where similar tragedies resulted in serious action, ie Australia, Japan, UK and Ireland as a starter for motivation and a serious analysis of how these countries overcome similar issues as a potential template.

So citizens of the great country of the USA, if you really, really, really, really want change and not just to get on camera and give lip service, it lies with you to get organised and demand change from those that represent you....the type of meaningful action that you believe will stop the escalating madness in your country.

Shit if your govt remains deadlocked and society continues to remains apathetic, if I was living there, I would seriously consider immigrating.......for yourself and your family's future.

sincerely best of luck with the next step......the world is watching
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: What to do about guns?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 02:04:21 AM »
I am not sure what can be done.  I finally went on Facebook.  You have those wanting stricter controls and others saying guns don't kill people--you know the rest.  They say we need armed teachers and armed students in colleges.  I saw a demonstration after Virginia Tech, where they had students armed with fake guns and a man comes in with a weapon.  Every student with the fake gun accidentally shot students in the chaos. 

I saw it reported that the man today used a semi-automatic rifle and two high-powered hand guns.  This could be a starting place.  They say these were bought legally, with a permit from a family member.  I am confused by this.  If true and I understand it correctly, his mother obtained these by using the permit of a family member.  That would seem like they were obtained illegally, to me.  Surely, you cannot buy guns using someones permit.  No one needs semi-automatic guns.  No one needs hand guns that can fire 30 rounds, before needing to reload.  No one needs bullets that explode upon impact, insuring certain death. 

I never saw the second amendment as an individual right.  It says in order to maintain a well-regulated militia.  This was before we had police and true military.  It took a very long time to reload.  But, we aren't going to get rid of the second amendment.  We need tighter laws.  I think it should be a burden to obtain a gun license.  You should have to take a certain amount of safety classes.  There should be a full FBI background check.  If you're diagnosed with a mental disorder, then you should be put on a database.  I know many worry this will cause people to avoid seeking mental health, but it is what it is.  We all had to take a drivers Ed class and take a test to drive.  I can't understand why it is so easy to obtain guns. 

We need better access to mental healthcare.  Many of the people who want guns to have little or no restrictions are often the ones who don't want tax money going to help those in need of help.  Police say they are being out-gunned, since the assault weapon ban was allowed to expire.  And, there is the gun culture.  I don't blame the media and I don't like censorship, but gratuitous violence on TV and in films is rampant.  You can show gruesome murders on CSI, but you can't show a condom ad.  Something is wrong with that.  We love violence, as a country. 

So, reinstating the assault weapon ban is a good place to start.  I also think the large clips should be banned.  We need tougher laws when someone allows their gun to get in hands of anyone it doesn't belong to.  How did he have access to these guns?  Unless something to the contrary comes out, she didn't have these locked up.  This isn't like locking up alcohol.  These are serious weapons.  Her house could have been robbed and these guns in the hands of anyone.  And, that's where many of the guns killing people in the inner-city come from.  They come from the suburbs. 

Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 02:27:06 AM »
I am not sure what can be done.

Try looking overseas for inspiration and potential template. After the Australian shooting at Port Arthur in 1996 where 35 people got massacred, hundreds of thousands of people marched on the streets in all state capital cities to demand tougher gun laws........guess what happened? Yep a steep decline in gun murder!

Apathy reigns in America. Again its up to the people but again don't think the Amercians are willing to organise themselves for the necessary action required. Remember this massacre is not a once off event!

i thank my lucky stars I don't have to feel afraid where i live for myself and my family's safety.
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Offline Jmarksto

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 04:01:31 AM »
Try looking overseas for inspiration and potential template.

Agreed...we should also look outside our boarders to see how we compare in terms of gun violence now.  The US has 9 gun deaths per 100,000 people/year - we are a third world country by gun violence statistics.

Mexico 11
South Africa 9.4
U.S. 9.0
Nicaragua 7.1
Switzerland 6.4
Canada 4.8
Australia 1.0



What these numbers also say is that as terrible and tragic as this event was, there is allot more violence that doesn't get as much press and public outcry -- we have over 75 gun deaths/day in the US.

The numbers speak for themselves, we need gun control.

JM
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 05:58:53 AM »
I wouldn't say the reason there are loose gun laws in the USA is American apathy, on the part of stricter gun control advocates. 

In the current two party system which remains so binary, its up to elected Dems to fight for stricter gun control and they haven't.

I seem to remember many Democrats saying Obama had committed political suicide when he said he wasn't against gay marriage.

A little bit of spine and integrity in elected officials can go a long way. And if you lose, while doing the right thing, and fighting the good fight, its NOT like you can't get a good job.  Obviously elected officials assess the risks - which issues are quicksand and not worth fighting.  Suicide. Not worth losing Democratic power, which could lead to so many bad consequences.  If you cave on one important issue, you only lose one important issue after all.

Must be difficult to play these political games.  But really enough is enough on these endless gun massacres.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 06:00:56 AM by mecch »
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Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 06:40:02 AM »
I wouldn't say the reason there are loose gun laws in the USA is American apathy, on the part of stricter gun control advocates. 

In the current two party system which remains so binary, its up to elected Dems to fight for stricter gun control and they haven't.


But Meech, from what I understand there have been several attempts over the years by the Dems to tighten up gun control but it has proved difficult due to the opposition of vested interests, as mentioned previously, and due to their scaremongering.

Take a good look overseas and see what has happened elsewhere in the world (yes developed countries) on this issue. People power' including marching in the steets in protest and demanding effective gun control from the elected govt officials have provided the necessary edge to empower their respective govts to negate any opposition and act.

It is difficult for any govt to ignore tens of 1000's people in multiple cities demanding change!!!!!!

So Meech I don't agree. I again repeat it is really up to the people to say what kind of society they want and let their govt reps know by demonstrating 'people power'....and not just taking the easy route and writing letters!!!!!

No more excuses to pass the buck......little children continue to die. Vested interests will more than likely have to soften their opposition and forced to back down enabling for necessary action to take place.

From looking at history and how things have transpired in the US on this issue, the people have continued by and large (except for notable exceptions) to leave it up to the govt. reps to make the first moves which have resulted in continued lack of action and progress.

So yes apathy will continue at the local public level and so tragically Americans will lay in wait for the next massacre and people will continue to remain afraid.

I wish I am wrong and really hope that the American public will take ownership and finally say enough is enough. Hope this is the final straw for them!

Not convinced though........despite surveys indicating that most Americans are in favour of tighter gun control.......and they will continue to wait on elected govt officials to take the lead......seems like a big mistake.

So sickened by yesterday's tragedy!! I have a child of the same age and can not imagine what the parents of lost ones are going through.

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Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 09:39:25 AM »
 We do need stricter gun control. No doubt about it. I am a gun owner, and it is way too easy for someone to buy a gun. The issue is there are many people who want to go to the extremes on either end..some want a complete gun ban and others thing current restrictions are too tough.
 As I see it there are several issues that should be delt with. First, there are more guns in America than there are people. So, lets say we do come up with good comprehensive gun control legislation, what about the guns currently out there? How do we ensure that those weapons are not moved into the black market were there is no control? How do we realistically regulate the millions of weapons already in the hands of our citizens?
 Second, we need to take a look at society. By that I mean the onslaught of imagery through movies, youtube, and video games that our children are exposed to everyday. I find it difficult to think that with the video games that encourage one too kill with increasingly realistic graphics has no impact on young children. In many cases these kids are allowed to play these games and watch violent movies with no oversight from their parents.
 The average shooter in these incidents is not the thugs from the inner cities, it is the early 20's white teen boy, who for whatever reason is pissed at society, or his school, or whatever.
 I think as parents we need to look at ourselves, are we raising our children and becoming involved or do we allow television, the internet, and xbox live to babysit our kids and teens. One of the things that stuck out for me after the Columbine shootings was that one of the mothers made a statement that she was unaware that her son had several weapons in his bedroom. I'm am sorry, Mom, but that is your fault. My kids think that I "invade" their privacy, but I refuse to ever be a parent who says "I didn't know"
 To stop tragedies such as this is going to take a lot more than gun control, but it will involve gun control..and gun control is a good place to start..
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »

So Meech I don't agree. I again repeat it is really up to the people to say what kind of society they want and let their govt reps know by demonstrating 'people power'....and not just taking the easy route and writing letters!!!!!


Well of course you may be right. Nothing wrong with people's movements.

There were popular protests against Bush Jr's Iraq war and  Dems still voted for it. I thought that was very cynical survival politics on the part of Dems.  I watched Powell's speech to the UN and it was obvious the case was feeble. 

Obama mentioned gun control after these tragedies -- but where was gun control in the election. Few office holders wanted to touch it.  That's all I'm saying.

So I guess elected Dems and the voting public both share responsibly for inaction? 

(It was clear in the last presidential election that people thought the very rich are getting an unfair deal in the US. This, after a mass people's protest that went on for a long time, the year before the election.  But finally you end up with congress and state legislatures that won't follow the people's will.)

I read editorials over the years about people who are torn apart losing loved ones in these gun massacres. They go on to fight for gun control, and then finally get dispirited and discouraged with the wall of denial among legislators.

On this issue, on so many others, perhaps the dems (who seem to be the party interested in gun control) need to play as down and dirty and hardline and stubborn as the Republicans do on their issues.  At least you could finally get a compromise and some new gun control.  Better than nothing.  Better than a bunch of idiotic "script readings" of boiler-plate condolences and "let's not play politics".
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 09:53:14 AM by mecch »
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 09:54:03 AM »

Apathy reigns in America. Again its up to the people but again don't think the Amercians are willing to organise themselves for the necessary action required. Remember this massacre is not a once off event!safety.


Obviously since you don't live here you don't realize the difference involved with getting things done in a country of 22 million and one of 311 million. The NYC metropolitan area is the size of Australia's entire population. If it was a single area I assure you it would have had strict gun control laws previous to 1996.
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 10:02:24 AM »
There is also, in some of these editorials, the idea that people "don't recognize" what America has become. 

Of course these massacres are shocking!! 

But i do recognize that its political and the result of how elected representatives cowtow to their voting blocks. 

(Edited to add:  So what sucks is that Republicans in congress - you would expect them to be smarter than their voting block, and certainly smarter than the crackpots who are for unlimited gun rights.  To vote rationally. So here I want a humanist smart Republican official, who doesn't represent his voting block. But I want the opposite for Dems. There we have the voting block clearly for strict gun control, and our elected party members infuriatingly mute.)

I find it hard to believe that most of the current 47 Republican Senators favor freely available assault weapons.  And Christian prayer in public schools.  And putting American soldiers in harms way for how many more years on a lost cause in Afghanistan.  And no abortions.  And... so on and so on.  If that is really true, God help us all. 

What a dark hole.  Republicans playing to the peanut gallery's cockamamy ideas about their "right" to own assault weapons, and carry concealed weapons everywhere.  And the Dems tip-toing around the sleeping monster. 

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 11:54:24 AM by mecch »
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 10:24:22 AM »
Some of you may be interested in reading this simply because it's more data driven than most.
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 10:49:13 AM »
I think the lack of response from legislators is pretty much shared by both party's , after all it is one of the sacred rails of politics right up there with abortion and entitlements .

I honestly cant think of any solution that will put a dent in these horrible mass killings , especially for the short term . I recently , and I might add reluctantly bought a hand gun . I was in and out of the gun store with a semi automatic pistol with ammunition in less than 25 minutes , yes I timed it . They ran a background check while I waited and chatted with the sales person . It took two weeks and $7.50 to obtain a concealed carry permit , something a person who intends to use it for a massacre wouldn't have botherd with .

You hear about gun violence once in awhile in Chicago or other places where people are dying every single day but not nearly as much as you do when this happens in suburbia or a mall . If strict gun laws were enacted and it took 50 years to make a difference I would still support it . I just don't know what the answer is but I do hope a solution is found .     

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 10:53:47 AM »
I think the lack of response from legislators is pretty much shared by both party's , after all it is one of the sacred rails of politics right up there with abortion and entitlements .     

There's a huge difference between "shared" and "shared equally", Mr. Gun-Lovin' Southerner.
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 11:13:23 AM »
There's a huge difference between "shared" and "shared equally", Mr. Gun-Lovin' Southerner.

I am only protecting my Klonny horde from you rabid Yankees .   

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 11:13:52 AM »
Let me first say I have not researched the topic of gun control but I suspect that stricter gun control laws, while possibly reducing gun related deaths, are not going to address the underlying problem. I think it is analogous to reducing drug use by making drugs more difficult to obtain. There is something in the mindset of Americans that needs to be addressed for real change to happen. For example, I don't own a gun because I don't want to shoot and kill anyone. Period. If I felt the need to protect myself I would chose non-lethal means of doing so. People don't seem to connect that when you buy a handgun "for protection" it doesn't really protect you unless you are willing to pull the trigger and risk killing someone. Are you willing to kill someone? If the answer is yes what does that say about you, particularly given there are other options for protection.

Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 11:37:54 AM »
i doubt any changes that our country will make with gun control laws will "solve" the entire problem, but it can solve PART of the problem.

doing nothing should not be an option.

one can get out on the streets to protest or take the time to write to your congressman. i would commend both.
we should all demand more from those who we put in office.

the people on this website know better than most that silence=death.
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Offline friskyguy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 11:38:36 AM »
Obviously since you don't live here you don't realize the difference involved with getting things done in a country of 22 million and one of 311 million. The NYC metropolitan area is the size of Australia's entire population. If it was a single area I assure you it would have had strict gun control laws previous to 1996.

Come on!!! Of course it would be more difficult for a population of >300mio to enact change. You missed my point entirely.

I am hoping to encourage discussion about potentially for Joe citizen to take back his neighbourhood and society and how he may be able to demand what kind of place he wants to live in for himself and his children..... including what gun control measures he is comfortable with.

Every country is different and will demand different level of gun restrictions which is great and up to them to decide.

In other 'developed' countries of the world, where similar violent episodes have occured in the past, public groundswell of support has often been the catalyst of change. Despite the challenges unique to the US, (including large population), I just don't see this kind of groundswell in the US. This is my point. Maybe this latest massacre will enact action from the people!?

Maybe the citizens are now so more accustomed,  resigned maybe to the level of violence there and/or perhaps feel jaded that their voices will never be heard?.....evidence perhaps of the belief that the law makers are not really interested in representing their demands? Only the people living in the US there will know the answer to that!

Just sincerely hope, as the law makers are letting down what is essentially a kind and gracious nation, the people can take the batton and demand change from their lawmakers and better protect the innocent.

......oh by the way Ms P...... I love the country and (most) of its people, have visited over 39 states, lived there for more than 5 years and actively correspond with a great bunch of unfortunately increasingly disillusioned friends there.
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 12:07:41 PM »
Let me first say I have not researched the topic of gun control but I suspect that stricter gun control laws, while possibly reducing gun related deaths, are not going to address the underlying problem. I think it is analogous to reducing drug use by making drugs more difficult to obtain. There is something in the mindset of Americans that needs to be addressed for real change to happen. For example, I don't own a gun because I don't want to shoot and kill anyone. Period. If I felt the need to protect myself I would chose non-lethal means of doing so. People don't seem to connect that when you buy a handgun "for protection" it doesn't really protect you unless you are willing to pull the trigger and risk killing someone. Are you willing to kill someone? If the answer is yes what does that say about you, particularly given there are other options for protection.

I see the issue as the underlying problem as well and you make a few good points . I hate to steer the conversation away from how do you keep guns out of the hands of emotionally disturbed people and criminals to one of do you have a right to defend your self but since you brought it up .

I can barely push a self propelled lawn mower due to some health issues , so doing combat is not really an option nor is swinging a stick or getting close enough to taser someone . If some one was breaking in my house and didn't stop when I warned them away I would be sure they meant me real harm . Its not a matter would I shoot a man for wanting to steal my stuff , its a matter of personal safety . If I harmed a person I would carry that remorse to my grave ... but I would carry it there at a much later date if luck be with me .   

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 12:17:35 PM »
If the answer is yes what does that say about you, particularly given there are other options for protection.

What does it say about that person Ford? Please elaborate

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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »
The "underlying cause" BS... gotta love it. The only thing underlying everything is the amount of guns in the US, which is the largest per capita in the entire world. #2 is Yemen and they only have half the amount per person. Is it too much to ask that some of you do a bit of research and use some actual data?
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 12:26:08 PM »
The "underlying cause" BS... gotta love it. The only thing underlying everything is the amount of guns in the US, which is the largest per capita in the entire world. #2 is Yemen and they only have half the amount per person. Is it too much to ask that some of you do a bit of research and use some actual data?

Who said that isn't an underlying cause . Hand guns are made for killing people or shooting at paper at a gun range if your easily amused . I'm for no guns , no army's , no nukes but there are underlying causes for all manner of insanity that fuels this debate . 

Besides , my gun is going to be pretty once I get all the rinestones in the right place . 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:29:22 PM by jg1962 »

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 12:29:34 PM »
Who said that isn't an underlying cause . Hand guns are made for killing people or shooting at paper at a gun range if your easily amused . I'm for no guns , no army's , no nukes but there are underlying causes for all manner of insanity that fuels this debate . 

No, it's actually quite simple -- all you have to do is compare it to Japan which has the most strict gun laws for a developed country.
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Offline hope_for_a_cure

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 12:30:10 PM »
When I lived in Washington DC back in early and into the mid 1990's, I remember the local news every morning would start out with news about shootings that took place overnight.  These were mainly territorial drug dealer related for the most part.  It is sad for me to say, but I became somewhat accustom to this type of news and after hearing/seeing so much of it, the impact on me was less shocking.  I became numb to it.

News of these mass shootings (malls, theaters, schools, etc) that are becoming more and more numerous unveils a much larger problem.  Some will say that funds needed to contain pathological killers, insane people threatening others, etc. have dried up and more money should be provided for such.  We should be wondering why people are unable to communicate face to face with others and resolve problems out in the open. What is the source of all this anger? Why is all of this being repressed until it manifests itself in volcanic proportions? 

There will be no quick or simple solution. 

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 12:46:24 PM »
Do we repeal the Second Amendment and take away every gun in the US? If so how do we keep the guns from coming in from Mexico and other places? We cant even keep the coke out. I think a few of you think this is feasible, if thats the case then lets discuss it, otherwise lets agree that there will be some guns in privately owned homes in the US and work from there...
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »
No, it's actually quite simple -- all you have to do is compare it to Japan which has the most strict gun laws for a developed country.

I actually agree with what you are saying , there is no getting around the fact that access to guns is why the problem exist here . The statistics in other country's speak for themselves .

When I say I haven't a clue how to make things better I'm really saying how do we convince a nation to amend the constitution or at least interpret it in such a way that laws can be passed so as to start the long process of disarming the country . And good luck with that , I think the baptist Church's will be doing gay weddings long before this day comes .     

Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 01:16:58 PM »
Do we repeal the Second Amendment and take away every gun in the US? If so how do we keep the guns from coming in from Mexico and other places? We cant even keep the coke out. I think a few of you think this is feasible, if thats the case then lets discuss it, otherwise lets agree that there will be some guns in privately owned homes in the US and work from there...

See that's always the leap that discussing "gun control" means abolishing the second amendment. It doesn't. Even the rank and file members of the NRA when polled agree that we need stricter background checks.

Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 01:24:26 PM »
I'm not sure what the answer may be, but I don't think it's merely the number, or type of guns in the US that is the root of the problem.  I've been living in Canada now, for five years and the first thing I noticed, after moving here, is how much of American culture is based on aggression and violence.  It seems that there is so much anger in America, about so many topics and far too many people have no issue with using violence against their fellow citizens.

Granted, our population is 1/10 that of the States, yet Canadian culture is so very different.  I suppose the biggest change I noticed is how citizens here interact with each other and even when we have differences, there remains an underlying civility and respect.  When President Obama was elected, our friends here were appalled with the reactions of many Americans, especially Republicans and the rabid right wing fanatics.  It did not go unnoticed that gun sales in the US soared and continue to do so, after his re-election.

It seems to me that many Americans no longer see their fellow Americans as citizens, as much as segments to be demeaned and marginalized.  Hearing and seeing the rhetoric that comes from elected officials, for whatever reason, seems to be degrading the quality of life for far too many Americans.  I can't help but think that for many people, having guns may provide them with some type of personal empowerment, because society has become indifferent to their plight.

Watching the last election was very hard for me.  To see Americans at each others throats was very difficult.  Yes politics is not for the faint of heart, but it doesn't demand that you lack a heart.  Having prominent Americans espousing ideas that half the country are deadbeats or inferring that many are morally inferior because they do not share the same faith, just seems so destructive.  The idea of shared sacrifice or doing what is good for the country, appears to become less important as each day passes.

We have groups who spend millions, convincing one group of Americans, to hate another group and that cannot help but to breed resentment and distrust of each other.  I believe this is why any comprehensive gun control is unable to gain a foothold, because far too many Americans no longer trust their fellow citizens, nor their elected representatives.

Joe
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 01:26:14 PM »
See that's always the leap that discussing "gun control" means abolishing the second amendment. It doesn't. Even the rank and file members of the NRA when polled agree that we need stricter background checks.

It wasnt a "leap" I was trying to understand where to start the discussion.

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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2012, 02:30:20 PM »
For what it's worth here is my perspective as a gun owner (of multiple weapons)...

To many of you I am a pariah, or somehow skewed merely because I own a gun.  Some people say that I "cling to my right to carry weapons" with images of me drooling as I clean my weapons at the kitchen table. I don't carry weapons. My weapons are locked up tight with trigger locks, except for one which is hidden near my bed. Most of the firearms I own were inherited. Most are hunting rifles, like my fathers deer rifle. Most I've never shot. One is from my great uncle who was a San Antonio detective and was killed in the line of duty, one is an antique revolver from WW1 carried by a family member. I suppose you could call me an impromptu collector. They are kinda "cool" but that's it. It's neat to take them out and tell the stories surrounding them. But it's been years since Ive last done that. Could I do without them, certainly. Would I be willing to give them up tomorrow, no problem.

I keep a semiautomatic Pistol near my bed, hidden. If you were not me it would take you several minutes to find it if you could find it at all. Am I afraid I am going to be murdered each and every night from a phantom intruder, not really. Am I comfortable in the fact that it is there if I need it, yes. Do I sleep just as well away from home without it, sure I do.

Outside of a Repeal of the Second amendment, I don't think there is anything I would not agree to in relation to gun control. I am for an Assault weapons ban, I am for a ban on high capacity cartridges, I am even willing to entertain a ban on Semiautomatics and give up my bedside Semiautomatic pistol and replace it with my 38 revolver.

I'm not sure why the mother involved in this incident felt a need to have this type of assault rifle, I hear reports she was a gun collector. I dont understand the need to collect those types of weapons.

Yes, easy access to guns magnified this tragedy exponentially. These children were executed with precision, probably head shots. Not just shot random bursts of gunfire. Hence, no survivors. What causes a person to do this?

What was happening in this guys mind before he decided to pick up guns to rectify whatever was paining him? What happened to his Empathy, where did it go? More importantly what is happening in our society that is causing these people to do this? Is it the graphic "Modern Warfare" type shoot-em up games that is commonplace in most every 12year old boys room? Are these games numbing our society? Is it TV? I just watched a CSI Miami show that was very graphic and portrayed a butchered person and showed bloody pieces of a human body, but we see this every day on tv, it's now common place.

Is it music? Is it Rap music glorifying shooting and killing?

Is it the parents?

We've dont nothing to contol guns, but we've also done nothing towards understanding the phenomena of what drives these people to kill innocents like this. Progress has to be made on both fronts.







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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2012, 02:35:38 PM »
Clearly the cause is rap music, and by extension the colored man.

Some people say that I "cling to my right to carry weapons" with images of me drooling as I clean my weapons

yes, yes & yes

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 02:37:51 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2012, 02:39:32 PM »
What was happening in this guys mind before he decided to pick up guns to rectify whatever was paining him? What happened to his Empathy, where did it go?

Will,

I too wonder how someone can lose all empathy for others and I found this article that provides a fairly decent explanation as to how it happens.

Joe

Who would kill children?
By Dr. Keith Ablow
FoxNews - Published December 14, 2012

After the horrific events of Friday at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, an understandable and frequent question has been, "What sort of person can shoot innocent children?"

The answer to that question, in short, is this:  1) Certainly, someone who has lost the capacity for human empathy--that God-given quality that allows us to resonate with the suffering of others, and 2) Probably, someone who is, probably unconsciously, making a statement about the random nature of destructiveness, about how innocence and youth confer no safety upon an individual, and about how his rage--likely unexamined and left to fester underground--knows no bounds.

The psychiatric diagnoses that can be connected to a lack of empathy are numerous.  Someone can have fallen victim to schizophrenia and be suffering the delusion that others must die to save the earth.  Hence, there is no grief for the people who must die.  Someone can be drug dependent and inebriated to the point that his core empathy is suppressed, due to intoxication.  Someone can be personality disordered--a "sociopath" who steals, cheats and commits violent acts without guilt.

Yet, these diagnoses still don't speak to the underlying cause of someone losing empathy.  What about that?  Regardless of what diagnosis we speak of, we still need to think about what causes those conditions marked by having little or no feeling for others.

Perhaps there is a genetic vulnerability in such individuals.  Perhaps there is a defect in the serotonin (a calming brain chemical messenger) systems of such people.  Perhaps head trauma can play a role in damaging the frontal lobes. Some will even claim symptoms of autism could be involved. But consider this:  In every case I have ever treated in which empathy is in short supply or absent, it was eroded through suffering inflicted upon that person himself or herself, usually early in life.  Psychological trauma--whether chronic or acute--has been present in every violent person I have ever evaluated during the past two decades.

In the case of the shooter in Connecticut, Adam Lanza, 20, now deceased, we must, sadly, imagine someone so devoid of empathy that he could shoot one child after another, seeing each go lifeless, ignoring the shock and terror on the faces of the victims, ignoring the grief being visited upon so many families.  And such a person is, without question, an individual entirely without empathy, and, therefore, by definition, severely mentally ill.

I have not evaluated anyone in Adam Lanza's family.  But the fact that he reportedly killed his mother by shooting her in the face, then left 18 dead children as his legacy, would make any psychiatrist with grounding in psychological reasoning wonder whether the 18 children represented what was "dead" inside him (psychologically or spiritually), and whether he believed--rationally or irrationally--that his mother was complicit in his demise.  That terrible canvas of bloodshed would paint the picture of a tortured life.  That would square with #2 above--namely a child killer's likely underlying, even entirely unconscious, belief (perhaps learned firsthand) that destruction is random, that innocence and youth is no protection and that rage knowing no bounds can, nonetheless, be denied by a force of will, or buried with substances, or kept under wraps through silence--which, ultimately, is the path to it exploding out of a person.

I am reminded tonight of Charles Manson who, upon considering that he might face the death penalty, said something very close to, "You can't kill me; I'm already dead."

The myth of vampires is instructive here--those living dead among us out for the blood of others, taking it with no remorse and no feeling for those who fall to the ground, lifeless, because they are lifeless, too.

Adam Lanza opened the door to a new kind of horror in America--the massacre of children.  The likelihood that he was, for all intents and purposes, destroyed just as early on, is not 100 percent, but it is very high.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/12/14/who-would-kill-children/print#ixzz2F9Q07DIs
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2012, 02:46:58 PM »
At the heart of being able to discuss and address gun control and gun violence is an understanding of the intent of the forefathers in the inclusion of the 2nd Amendment....

This has always been the point of contention of pro-gun control and anti-gun control groups....

Interesting to note that the 2nd amendment says:
As passed by the Congress:A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Keep in mind that the 2nd amendment was all about alleviating the fear of the states of the formation of a centralized form of government. States wanted to be sure that they would have the ability to have the means to uprise against a centralized government that became tyrannical - like the government that they had fled in England.

Because the militia was made up of individuals, the rights of individuals to possess arms was seen as essential to a "well-regulated militia."

Now, we have to ask if it was the intent of the forefathers for individuals to possess arms as an individual means of self-defense; if it was their intent for individuals to possess semi-automatic arms; and exactly what they meant by "well-regulated" militia....

Constitutionalists have argued over this issue - as have the courts - for years.

I doubt the forefathers foresaw a time when the federal government would have nuclear weapons and other arms that would render the intent of states maintaining their freedom through a well-regulated militia and the unabridged right of individuals to bear arms a moot point.

Central to gun violence aren't guns, but rather violence. We have become a society that is comfortable with seeing multiple acts of violence portrayed on television, in the movies, in music, on video games, etc. Our society is more likely to ban video games, movies, music, etc. with sexual overtones than it is those with violent overtones.

I do think that the issue of gun control - whatever form that may take - is going to start by having a collective "think tank" of scholars of the Constitution discuss the intent of the 2nd amendment and whether that intent is still valid in 2012 (and, if not, how should that be rectified).
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Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2012, 02:49:32 PM »
One suggestion for gun control in America, might be to look to other countries for ideas.  Canadians have come up with a pretty good system for gun purchasing and registration.  Here, you must wait 28 days before you can purchase a gun, AND you need to have the support of two people to vouch for you.

Just a thought.

Joe
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2012, 02:55:45 PM »

Keep in mind that the 2nd amendment was all about alleviating the fear of the states of the formation of a centralized form of government.

So you're saying it had nothing to do with the fact that there was no standing army?

linky

Quote
The court last examined this issue in 1939 in United States v. Miller. There it held that the Second Amendment was designed to ensure the effectiveness of the militia, not to guarantee a private right to possess firearms. The Miller case, though it did not fully explore the entire constitutional history, has guided the government's position on firearm issues for the past six decades.

If the court were to take up the two cases on appeal, it is far from clear that the Justice Department's new position would prevail. The plain text of the Second Amendment -- ''A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed'' -- does not support the unequivocal view that Mr. Ashcroft and Mr. Olson have put forth. The amendment refers to the right of the people, rather than the individual person of the Fifth Amendment. And the phrase ''keep and bear arms'' is, as most commentators note, a military reference.

Nor do the debates surrounding the adoption of the amendment support the idea that the framers were thinking of an individual right to own arms. The relevant proposals offered by the state ratification conventions of 1787-88 all dealt with the need to preserve the militia as an alternative to a standing army. The only recorded discussion of the amendment in the House of Representatives concerned whether religious dissenters should be compelled to serve in the militia. And in 1789, the Senate deleted one clause explicitly defining the militia as ''composed of the body of the people.'' In excising this phrase, the Senate gave ''militia'' a narrower meaning than it otherwise had
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Offline buginme2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2012, 03:02:23 PM »
Even if the forefathers had intended for people to be armed (regardless of forming a militia) that was over two hundred years ago.  Can we not update or change a law to the betterment of society? 

Or do we all subscribe to Scalia's interpretation of the consitution that it is rigid and unable to change over time?
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2012, 03:08:38 PM »
I'm fairly sure that Ben Franklin would laugh at Scalia.
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2012, 03:34:02 PM »
My point was exactly that..
There was no "standing" army.... the militia was made up of individuals - thus, in order for free states to have a well regulated militia the right of individuals to bear arms should be unabridged...

I don't see how what I said could have been construed any differently -
I also think I also put in my response that some constitutional scholars probably need to be at the center of a think tank to see how the 2nd amendment still applies today; if it applies; or if changes are needed.

One of my areas of focus - and an area I actually enjoy studying - is constitutional law....
In order to fully understand the Constitution, one has to (as I'm sure we agree) be aware of the timeframe in which it was being written; who it was being written by; and the history that led up to each part of its introduction, as well as the fighting, politics, etc. that took place in getting the states to ratify each part of it.

Of course, this is one of the reasons that America will never get anywhere on this issue..... because people want to "nit-pick" every element that might even slightly, remotely get us into the ballpark of having a meaningful dialogue that could lead to change....  Nothing surprising. Status quo that some will stay stuck in the problem without ever taking a meaningful step toward the solution or offering one. I/J/S.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2012, 03:39:20 PM »
One suggestion for gun control in America, might be to look to other countries for ideas.  Canadians have come up with a pretty good system for gun purchasing and registration.  Here, you must wait 28 days before you can purchase a gun, AND you need to have the support of two people to vouch for you.


I like this, it's an excellent starting point.


Will,



Who would kill children?
By Dr. Keith Ablow
FoxNews - Published December 14, 2012



Interesting read Joe.

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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2012, 04:09:59 PM »
My point was exactly that..
There was no "standing" army.... the militia was made up of individuals - thus, in order for free states to have a well regulated militia the right of individuals to bear arms should be unabridged...

I don't see how what I said could have been construed any differently -

I construed your comments, or parts of it, as a somewhat insurrectionist interpretation of the 2nd amendment, which is a decidedly recent (relatively) right-wing reading.

One suggestion for gun control in America, might be to look to other countries for ideas.  Canadians have come up with a pretty good system for gun purchasing and registration.  Here, you must wait 28 days before you can purchase a gun, AND you need to have the support of two people to vouch for you.


In Japan a gun owner must also pass a mental competency examination (at the gun owner's cost) and be re-certified annually.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:11:45 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline bocker3

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2012, 04:23:11 PM »
The intractability of this issue rests on a whole host of issues -- many being discussed here.  However, IMO, it is first and foremost about the immense power of the NRA.  This lobby will not give an inch on any issue connected to guns and the control of them.  People will say that they are for background  checks, but that is not entirely true at all.  Here in, good ol' VA, one can buy a gun or many guns at a "gun show" with nary a check.  If it is classifiec as a "person to person" sale, no background check.  Whenever it is suggested to close this "loophole", the NRA swoop in with $$ and bodies to fight the change.
So, while background checks and waiting periods would be a fantastic start -- don't fool yourselves -- it ain't happening.  The NRA has deep pockets and will use them to defeat politicians, if they can't outright purchase the politician's vote.

So -- to answer another poster -- why don't the people "rise up" and demand things.  It's simple -- money talks louder and as Joe pointed out, this country has been dissected into demographics and elections are all about appealing to the right combo of them to win.  No one is trying to reach any vast swath of the electorate -- they are simply trying to get that one necessary vote to come out on top.

Money is behind power -- The NRA, AARP, and many other lobbies control this country.  You can't have meaningful dialogue on guns without a mobilization of the NRA.  Neither, can you talk about any changes to SS or Medicare with the AARP investing millions in ad campaigns.  Lobbies exist today to keep the status quo -- to the benefit of their members, even if it results in detrimental blow back to others.

So -- let's start by trying (in vain, most likely) to actually have complete background checks and/or waiting periods to purchase guns -- because we simply aren't there yet.

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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2012, 04:31:29 PM »
The larger issue in terms of the NRA, is that they claim to champion the rights of the gun owner, but that's a mere proxy tactic. What they really champion (and why their pockets are so deep) are the gun manufacturers. And the domestic sales are but a small part of the equation. The US is the #1 firearm manufacturer in the world, providing 3/4 of the total world trade in this. It's a huge amount of money -- and from 2010 to 2011 sales tripled with a Democrat administration approving these exports. So when you think items only say "Made in China" and that the US doesn't manufacture things anymore think again.
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Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2012, 04:54:49 PM »
constitutional issues aside,
i think i speak for many when asking a rather simple question:

why are so many obsessed with guns?

i will preface this by saying that the only gun i ever owned was a bb gun as a child.
a short-lived phase of target practice akin (and probably a step beyond) to shooting a water gun into a clowns mouth at the local fair in hopes of winning a plush toy prize.

i do not even understand those who enjoy hunting for "sport".
those who hunt for food is another story. i am not a vegetarian and accept that others are doing my killing for me. still not a pleasant thought but i know i am playing a role in these animals deaths.

automatic and semi-automatic weapons? the need and/or desire to own is beyond me.

self protection?
afraid of the federal government? (lot's of luck if this is your reason!)

i just don't get it.

collectors? (why?, sorry, still do not understand.)

why do people feel comforted in owning a product that is designed to kill?

just thought i would ask some really basic questions here that have never been answered to my satisfaction.

an understanding of the mindset and rational of gun ownership needs to be discussed in greater detail.
i highly doubt those involved in mass shootings give a damn about the constitutional rights of gun ownership.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:19:24 PM by mitch777 »
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Offline Joe K

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 05:18:58 PM »
why do people feel comforted in owning a product that is designed to kill?

Hey Mitch,

I can offer one reason, my own.  I was in an abusive relationship and I found the power of law enforcement to be very limited in protecting me from my abuser.  I followed all the rules, went through the courts, but unless you have a police officer following you around, you remain vulnerable to someone with an unstable mind.

By the time I left my abuser, it was clear to me that he would do anything, and I do mean anything to hurt me for leaving him.  It was then that I felt something that I had never experienced before, abject fear for my own safety.  I took a firearms course and bought my first gun.  I hate guns, simply because their only purpose is to kill things.  But I hated the thought of being killed by my ex, so I did what I felt I had to do to protect me.

When I moved to Canada, I no longer had the need for a gun and I gave it away.

Sometimes, no matter what intent our heart may hold, we do something we would normally not do, because reality dictates that we have few, or no other options.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:27:22 PM by killfoile »
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Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2012, 05:29:07 PM »
Joe,
understood.

an honest answer.

glad to hear you got rid of it when the need no longer existed.
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2012, 05:55:48 PM »
Let me get this straight.  Dr. Ablow, representing the right, argues that sociopaths who become mass murderers were abused children.  So this supports the idea that it is (1) society's ills (child abuse) and the (2) evil destiny of some sociopaths, that culminates in massacres committed with automatic assault weapons. 

Taking the focus and heat off the guns in the process.

Over interest in the criminal and overcooked pop psychology, aside, why not remove the weapons?  Since we have all these abused psychopaths and potential mass murderers, laying low, Boo Radley style, in the shadows. When they crack they'll reach for the guns -- oh wait - they wont have them, and they simply won't be able to kill as many and so quickly.

(Dr. Ablow was the life-coach/shrink who said Biden's head needed examining after the VP debates.)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:57:56 PM by mecch »
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Offline bmancanfly

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2012, 06:43:45 PM »
You mean this Dr Ablow?
http://equalitymatters.org/blog/201109260010

I generally don't put a lot of stock in anything he has to say.
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2012, 07:42:23 PM »
Yeah one and the same, and author of the opinion posted by Killfolie.

There may be a grain of truth in what he says. But its apples and oranges man. Every country surely has its share of social ills, and produces its psychopaths. 

Another right-wing political point is argued on nebulous and rather irrelevant social challenges such as:  "we need to cure society's ills and take care of the mentally insane." 

Oh yeah right. And 47% of the country has a victim mentality and wants to free-load on the state because they have character flaws and are basically good for nothings. (instead of, hmm, radical idea - living wages for the workers and a fair tax burden on the super-rich...)

Bunch of mumbo jumbo. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 07:44:14 PM by mecch »
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Offline Jody

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
To add to the eloquent posts by killfoile and everyone else here...As was stated by Morgan Freeman and others this unstable man gets his name in lights by committing such an atrocity.  He feels he will make a name for himself by doing an evil act and killing little boys and girls.  The media makes a name for these guys and no one remembers the victims names. 

A gun control law, along with background checks and waiting periods that bocker speaks of are of course prudent ideas.  But since this is such a large, underground business it would seemingly not keep these weapons out of the hands of a wannabee lunatic.  The proliferation of weapons in this nation is sick.

I have always been grateful to America, despite a history of growth on the backs of the native peoples who were here centuries before Europeans and were nearly wiped out in their Holocaust.  This country took in my grandparents for its Industrial revolution and gave them hope and food and work and I am blessed to have had a good life to date, HIV aside.  So besides my appreciation we have also accomplished what no other people have anywhere at anytime.  People worldwide clamor for our technology, our music, movies, scientists and scholars, to come to our schools and universities and to visit our shores.  But we also lead the world in gun manufacturing and the taking of anti-depressants and other drugs, including Ritalin for otherwise restless children.  It is not a great combination.

In sadness for the incredible grief of the people of Newtown, CT. and humanity.

Jody :'(
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2012, 08:13:46 PM »
If I hear one more reporter ask a grieving parent or child how did it make you feel I'm going to scream . I am not going to be watching the news for a few days now .

Offline thunter34

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2012, 10:02:50 PM »
If I hear one more reporter ask a grieving parent or child how did it make you feel I'm going to scream . I am not going to be watching the news for a few days now .

Agreed.  I came in tonight, but decided to throw the TV on mute.  I  know the jist of what happened.  I don't really need to hear any of the now superflous digging.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2012, 10:56:41 PM »
I've been watching this all day instead

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Offline wolfter

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2012, 12:04:34 AM »
I couldn't bring myself to discuss this until the emotions settled down.  I only wanted to deal with the grief of this situation before I made impulsive decisions and comments.

Intelligent debate and solutions requires compromise.  I've watched all sides posting their views and I wanted to witness what they were really saying without injecting my feelings.

And OVERWHELMING majority of everyone I know wants reforms.  When I hear people associated with our club say it's needed, I'm pretty sure it is.  I'm reading all my gun toting kin talk about the need.  I personally don't know one person who has an assault rifle or wants one.

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2012, 12:20:34 AM »
This shout out goes to Jeff: peer-reviewed 2009 study by the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine study which concluded that people in possession of a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than those who didn't have a firearm.

Feel safer, beyaatch?
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Offline wolfter

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2012, 12:28:08 AM »
This shout out goes to Jeff: peer-reviewed 2009 study by the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine study which concluded that people in possession of a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than those who didn't have a firearm.

Feel safer, beyaatch?

Decided to think before I post.... ;D
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:31:55 AM by wolfter »
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2012, 12:33:06 AM »
Decided to think before I post.... ;D

So how many guns do you have wolfie? Do you sit at the kitchen table in your soiled underwear cleaning them like Wumpy?
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2012, 12:47:49 AM »
This shout out goes to Jeff: peer-reviewed 2009 study by the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine study which concluded that people in possession of a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than those who didn't have a firearm.

Feel safer, beyaatch?

I have read similar studies and I bet they are accurate . I got my concealed carry permit so that I can legally take them out of the house if need be .

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2012, 12:53:25 AM »
I have read similar studies and I bet they are accurate . I got my concealed carry permit so that I can legally take them out of the house if need be .

So you bought a gun in order to become less safe? That seems like a very well thought out purchase.
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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2012, 12:58:44 AM »
So you bought a gun in order to become less safe? That seems like a very well thought out purchase.

I did just buy one but the ones my dad left me are valuable . I do not feel less safe by a long shot , pun intended .

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2012, 01:09:17 AM »
I do not feel less safe by a long shot , pun intended .

Well, you are darling. 4.5 times less safe. Are you drunk or something?
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Offline bocker3

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2012, 10:50:00 AM »
This shout out goes to Jeff: peer-reviewed 2009 study by the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine study which concluded that people in possession of a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than those who didn't have a firearm.

Feel safer, beyaatch?

Yeah, well -- stats are funny aren't they -- you can always find something to help make a point. 
Recently the local Richmond rag has gone on and on about how there has been an INCREASE in gun sales in VA during the last few years, yet violent crime has DECREASED in the same time period.  All during bad economic times when crime generally goes up.  They are using this to show how gun control advocates are WRONG -- more guns don't equal more violence.
So...........  have at it - but consider -- PERHAPS, just PERHAPS - pulling out a gun avoided an assault from happening -- this would not play into your stat. 
(No -- I don't own a gun - though I am/was an Expert marksman in the Army)

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Online Jeff G

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2012, 10:58:41 AM »
I would welcome any solution that addressed the issue of gun violence including giving up my guns  . I think the tendency to blame law abiding citizens who hunt or own guns as being part of the problem is misguided . People that don't hunt that choose to own guns are not the problem but rather a symptom of the problem .   

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2012, 11:41:35 AM »

Recently the local Richmond rag has gone on and on about how there has been an INCREASE in gun sales in VA during the last few years, yet violent crime has DECREASED in the same time period. 

How many of those guns are bought and then travel up I-95 to kill people in the Northeast where there are stricter gun laws? A lot. Mayor Bloomberg & Nutter complain all of the time about Virginia's looseygoosey gun sale laws.

I'll trust a study by an Ivy League peer reviewed study before the Richmond Times-Dispatch any day of the week (or quasi-analysis from some random person on the internet).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 11:43:12 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2012, 11:50:54 AM »
I think the tendency to blame law abiding citizens who hunt or own guns as being part of the problem is misguided


Well, I'm not sure how misguided that is.  As far as I know, Lanza was a law abiding citizen until Thursday.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2012, 12:01:51 PM »
Firearm homicides in the US
 ēNumber of deaths 2009: 11,493

Death by DUI in the US
ē2009 33,808

Now is anyone saying they need to ban cars?
Laws are made for law abiding citizens, not unlawful citizens.

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2012, 12:08:28 PM »
*sigh*

... and that's all she wrote
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Offline wolfter

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2012, 12:34:58 PM »
So how many guns do you have wolfie? Do you sit at the kitchen table in your soiled underwear cleaning them like Wumpy?

Not sure what this has to do with the topic of gun violence?  Perhaps having a father who was a deputy and a veteran of the Korean Conflict instilled a different mindset about weapons and the need for protection? 

But I will answer your question, I have 2 guns.  My 410 was a birthday gift from my dad on my 13th birthday.  And I have only had to pull it one time.  About 15 years ago, someone kicked in our front door.  I'm guessing he thought no one was home.  Thankfully, I was in the bedroom when I heard the commotion and met the guy in the hallway.  Cocked and pointed, and definitely prepared to use it.  And yes, I'd have no problem using it to protect myself and my loved ones.

Wolfie
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2012, 12:40:20 PM »
Now, how is that Miss P has (probably) lived in much more dangerous localities than the rest of you for the past 25 years (read: inner city -- Brooklyn, Philly and (not the suburbs) downtown Richmond, nor in any upscale areas of these three cities) and never felt the need to "protect myself"? Yet you folks out in the sticks seem to think that there are roving bands of criminals around every thistle thicket?
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Offline spacebarsux

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2012, 12:45:32 PM »
"The rate of death from firearm injuries in the US, put very crudely, at more than 30,000 a year exceeds the annual death rate in the present war in Syria."

See last para. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/16/newtown-shooting-america-gun-laws-failed-again

Being non-American, this is a very bizarre debate to observe. The right to bear arms is supposed to be for protection - but that didn't help Nancy Lanza shot with her own gun. Apparently she had a legally purchased AR-15-type rifle, that's a semi-automatic designed for the US Army. Why on earth would anyone need one of them?

It's up to America of course, but I wish the gun control lobby all the best in their endeavours.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2012, 12:48:54 PM »
Now, how is that Miss P has (probably) lived in much more dangerous localities than the rest of you for the past 25 years (read: inner city -- Brooklyn, Philly and (not the suburbs) downtown Richmond, nor in any upscale areas of these three cities) and never felt the need to "protect myself"? Yet you folks out in the sticks seem to think that there are roving bands of criminals around every thistle thicket?
Those of us that live in the "sticks" don't have 100 police officers 5 minutes away.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2012, 12:49:20 PM »
Now, how is that Miss P has (probably) lived in much more dangerous localities than the rest of you for the past 25 years (read: inner city -- Brooklyn, Philly and (not the suburbs) downtown Richmond, nor in any upscale areas of these three cities) and never felt the need to "protect myself"? Yet you folks out in the sticks seem to think that there are roving bands of criminals around every thistle thicket?


Exactly.  I find such logic to be, erm, interesting. 

Speaking of gun violence and "protecting oneself", did you read about the man (in Florida, of course) who shot and killed yet another teenager because he felt "threatened"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57554897-504083/florida-teen-shot-to-death-by-man-after-dispute-over-loud-music-police-say/
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Offline wolfter

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2012, 12:58:12 PM »
Those of us that live in the "sticks" don't have 100 police officers 5 minutes away.

Exactly, and then if your home is marked as a "faggot" location, you've added an additional target to your back.  We've had a couple of incidents around here were gays were targeted.  In one of these attacks, they spray painted hate words all over the place and then torched their barn.  They killed several horses just because the couple were gay.  You probably saw that in the news as you're fairly close to us.

I would venture to guess that home invasions happen more in the rural areas than urban locations.  We don't have immediate responses for police protection. 

But these scenarios do nothing to discuss the need for comprehensive gun reform.  Again, based on everything I'm reading from friends and family, the overwhelming majority feel it's time to address realistic change.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2012, 01:07:44 PM »
Philadelphia had a homicide rate of 20.7 per 100,000 residents (highest number of the US's 10 most populous cities) in 2011. If you live in a rural area please look up your rate and pro-rate it for that number and let me know what it is. It doesn't matter if a cop is five feet away when they're addressing numbers like that.

I've yet to personally hear a gun fired in the past 8 years of living here.

Otherwise you're just feeding the Gun Culture Machine for cultural reasons, and I'll be happy to post a continual stream of pictures of six year old victims for the remainder of this thread. I'll also guarantee you that the hoards of gun owners saying there's (now that children were killed) that there's "comprehensive gun reform" needed they won't lift a finger to press their congressional representatives to do so, or elect other politicians that are willing to do so.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 01:10:30 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2012, 01:10:28 PM »

CEDAR LAKE, Ind. -- Authorities say an Indiana man who had 47 guns and ammunition in his home has been arrested after allegedly threatening to kill people at an elementary school near his home.

Cedar Lake police were called to the home of 60-year-old Von I. Meyer early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire. A police statement says Meyer also said he would enter Jane Ball Elementary School and "kill as many people as he could."

Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.

Prosecutors filed felony intimidation charges against Meyer on Saturday, one day after the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. He is being held without bond.

Cedar Lake is about 45 miles southeast of Chicago.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2012, 01:15:09 PM »
We don't have those kinds of statics because around here everyone knows that everyone owns a gun and aren't afraid to use them. You can post anything you like, it won't change my mind nor will you change the criminals mind.

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2012, 01:15:53 PM »
blah blah blah
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Offline skeebo1969

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2012, 01:37:46 PM »

Exactly.  I find such logic to be, erm, interesting. 

Speaking of gun violence and "protecting oneself", did you read about the man (in Florida, of course) who shot and killed yet another teenager because he felt "threatened"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57554897-504083/florida-teen-shot-to-death-by-man-after-dispute-over-loud-music-police-say/

Another needless tragedy caused by a man who felt bigger than himself because he was packing.  They had every right to have their music playing and if it bothered him that much he could have pumped his gas else where.

I used to have a couple of guns myself, along with a concealed weapons permit.  It was far too much responsibility than I cared to have.  Besides forgetting them in the car at times, I just didn't like having them with children in the house.  I haven't felt the need to have one since selling them 14 years ago. 

By comparison, I felt much safer sleeping at night when I had my pitbull Neo than when I owned guns.  And, as far as someone robbing me out on the streets?  While it's been a blow to my pride, I find giving them what they want pretty much ends the ordeal rather quickly..... a gun in your face really makes that gold chain unimportant anyways.

Thinking back, I'm really glad I didn't own one when I went through that mental breakdown a year ago last April.  Hanging yourself is pretty tough to deal with and pulling a trigger would have been too easy.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2012, 01:42:09 PM »
Imagine if just one of those teachers had a concealed weapon on them that day.  Or if the school had an armed guard.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2012, 01:44:00 PM »
Imagine if just one of those teachers had a concealed weapon on them that day.  Or if the school had an armed guard.

...or no one had guns.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2012, 02:01:36 PM »
Imagine if just one of those teachers had a concealed weapon on them that day.  Or if the school had an armed guard.
No one will ever know, but it may help in the future.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2012, 02:13:00 PM »
Imagine if just one of those teachers had a concealed weapon on them that day.  Or if the school had an armed guard.

No one will ever know, but it may help in the future.


Sure, RampidRod.  Let us give guns to every single person out there.  This logic of "if someone else in the room (or at the mall, the movie theatre, the university campus, etc.) had had a gun this wouldn't have happened" makes so much sense.

All that it would take, especially at a moment of fear (if not paranoia), is for someone to feel "threatened" for us to have a battlefield.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 02:14:59 PM by Rev. Moon »
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2012, 02:15:30 PM »
Newtown Church Evacuated After Threat

... if only those church goers had guns
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2012, 02:17:35 PM »
Today's Meet the Press was interesting. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/vp/50215770#50215770

Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2012, 02:23:00 PM »
There's a degree of awareness about how all of these conversations play out, how everybody plays their appointed role. We all know how the "national conversation" on guns will happen, with liberals saying there are too many guns, and conservatives yelling that we're politicizing it and also, too, arm the kindergarten teachers and the problems will be solved.

And then nothing will happen, and sadly we'll do it all again

Offline tednlou2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2012, 02:44:26 PM »
This is part of the ABC News experiment I referenced earlier.  They hold a mock campus shooting.  They gathered students who had gun training and experience.  They were "killed" and ended up shooting other students in the chaos.  I have seen several posts on facebook saying we just need to arm teachers and students on college campuses.  This is an interesting video. 

On a side note, several were also posting how on Friday a man in china stabbed about 24 young kids at a school.  They all reported how the students were all killed and that someone could just as easily kill several people with knives.  I thought it would be very difficult to kill that many with a knife.  Anyway, on This Week this morning, George said they all survived the knife attack.  Anyone know the truth?

http://youtu.be/3ermZHv1Ypg

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »

On a side note, several were also posting how on Friday a man in china stabbed about 24 young kids at a school.  They all reported how the students were all killed and that someone could just as easily kill several people with knives.  I thought it would be very difficult to kill that many with a knife.  Anyway, on This Week this morning, George said they all survived the knife attack.  Anyone know the truth?


None of the Chinese children died.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2012, 03:10:15 PM »
None of the Chinese children died.


What a shocker. Rightwingers on social media spreading teh lies.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2012, 03:10:41 PM »
...or no one had guns.

That would be wonderful, but realistically will not happen, not in the US. But why dont you take that magic wand you have and whirl it around in the air and give it a go.

Why now is the focus of this thread on going after JG, Wolfter, and myself beacause we own guns? I thought we had moved beyond repealing the Second Ammendment earlier in this thread and were starting to talk about 28day waiting periods, shutting down Gun shows, etc??

Oh, I guess Ive slept since then
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2012, 03:20:09 PM »
That would be wonderful, but realistically will not happen, not in the US. But why dont you take that magic wand you have and whirl it around in the air and give it a go.

Why now is the focus of this thread on going after JG, Wolfter, and myself beacause we own guns? I thought we had moved beyond repealing the Second Ammendment earlier in this thread?

Look ass-wipe even you aren't dense enough not to understand the response I was giving to Windy what's-her-face "imagine" scenario. I haven't gone after you or anyone else for owning a gun or suggested we get rid of the second amendment. Got that? And just to make a bed wetter like you feel better, you can go beat off knowing that I own a 38.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2012, 03:25:10 PM »


And then nothing will happen, and sadly we'll do it all again


What saddens me are the people who, in the wake of these horrible things, insist that "this is not the time to have these discussions. This is a time to mourn."

Then there's a period of respectful mourning, and then there is not ever, not ever ever, any discussion. Because Lindsay Lohan or a plane crash or the fiscal cliff.

As a society we have a charming yet dangerous collective ADD. If we don't address the issues while they are burning, our natural aversion to these controversial and nuanced topics easily overwhelms our (rapidly) diminishing passion for change. Especially if that change involves in any way a hardship on the collective society in the form of taxation to support mental health (OBABACARE!) or the admission that we are in the process of dissolving our social glue.

After the last few massacres, when people on this forum begged to wait until a reasonable period of respectful mourning had passed before having these discussions, how many discussions ensues a week or two later? What local or national or global controversy erupted in the meantime that was a (welcome) distraction?

It never changes because those of us who have the stomach to insist upon the discussion are shouted down by those who cannot bear to have it. Maybe this time will be different because it was children. I like to hope so. But my money is on token change, if that.

Because this time next week, Mayan Apocalypse, Uganda, Michigan, and no doubt, Lindsay Lohan.

Forgive me if I seem jaded. It's been that sort of week.

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2012, 03:25:19 PM »
I'm starting to feel like I'm the lone cocksucker who doesn't own a gun. In fact, I've never seen one close up except walking by a police officer.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2012, 03:31:53 PM »
Look ass-wipe

Really necessary?


Here's what I would do If I were king of the world:

Ban Assualt weapons.
Ban Semiautomatic weapons (yes, even 9mm pistols, etc...)
Ban High capacity Clips
Ban Gun shows
28 day waiting periods for gun purchases, including background checks.

Those who desired to have a firearm in their homes could have revolvers.



« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 03:40:38 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2012, 03:35:22 PM »
I'm starting to feel like I'm the lone cocksucker who doesn't own a gun. In fact, I've never seen one close up except walking by a police officer.

My dad gave me the gun years ago and it's  in a box hidden away in a closet. I really don't care if people own guns because I would like to believe most people are responsible. However, I do believe we should ban assault rifles, have effective background checks and quit de-funding mental health services. I do get infuriated when idiots equate gun control with trying to take away their guns.

Offline nixsmail

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2012, 03:42:39 PM »
I'm starting to feel like I'm the lone cocksucker who doesn't own a gun. In fact, I've never seen one close up except walking by a police officer.
  You are not alone, never had a desire or the inclination to own something that it's only purpose is to kill something else.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2012, 03:46:17 PM »
I have no problems taking all of your motherfuckin' guns away.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2012, 03:52:13 PM »
I have no problems taking all of your motherfuckin' guns away.

If you don't own a gun, then how do you steal your Klonopin?

Offline thunter34

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2012, 03:58:11 PM »
My dad gave me the gun years ago and it's  in a box hidden away in a closet. I really don't care if people own guns because I would like to believe most people are responsible. However, I do believe we should ban assault rifles, have effective background checks and quit de-funding mental health services. I do get infuriated when idiots equate gun control with trying to take away their guns.

Thread gospel.

And this queen doesn't own a gun either.  Never fired anything more than a BB gun or a cap gun as a kid.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2012, 03:59:42 PM »

(Weird non then double post)
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2012, 04:05:42 PM »
I'm starting to feel like I'm the lone cocksucker who doesn't own a gun. In fact, I've never seen one close up except walking by a police officer.


Girl, please.  I have never felt the desire to own a gun nor would ever consider buying one.  Not even after I spent the longest 15 minutes of my life tied, faced down with duct tape over my mouth, and with a gun being poked repeatedly against my back by a coked up thief who kept on saying "I feel like capping a motherfucker tonight".  Owning a gun wouldn't have helped me or my coworkers that night and I doubt it would help me in the future. 

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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #99 on: December 16, 2012, 04:32:43 PM »
I have no problems taking all of your motherfuckin' guns away.
blah, blah, blah.

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2012, 05:08:02 PM »
I'm starting to feel like I'm the lone cocksucker who doesn't own a gun. In fact, I've never seen one close up except walking by a police officer.

Same here. The only time I have ever touched a handgun was when a psychotic patient handed his to me, before we installed a metal detector.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2012, 05:22:07 PM »
What do you all think about having some type of legislation requiring children with Neurological or psychological impairments not be allowed to live in homes with firearms?

this of course coupled with tighter control of firearms?
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Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »
what is REALLY sad is that this thread, coming from THIS community, seems to be tearing us apart. :'(
i know this is an emotional issue, but c'mon boys and girls.
let's not be so offensive AND so defensive.

take a breath.

(sorry, i don't mean to preach as i am far from perfect)
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2012, 05:30:48 PM »
What do you all think about having some type of legislation requiring children with Neurological or psychological impairments not be allowed to live in homes with firearms?

With depression rates of 60% in HIV patients I'd be tempted to add them to that legislation.
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2012, 05:32:37 PM »
There's a degree of awareness about how all of these conversations play out, how everybody plays their appointed role. We all know how the "national conversation" on guns will happen, with liberals saying there are too many guns, and conservatives yelling that we're politicizing it and also, too, arm the kindergarten teachers and the problems will be solved.

And then nothing will happen, and sadly we'll do it all again


I agree with the beginning of your post, but am hopeful the last sentence won't be true.

While this is some of what aired today ...Senator Dianne Feinstein, the author of the country's last assault weapons banówhich was signed into law in 1994 but expired in 2004ókicked off the Meet the Press roundtable Sunday with big news. "I'm going to introduce in the Senate, and the same bill will be introduced in the House: a bill to ban assault weapons," she said. "It will ban the sale, the transfer, the importation, and the possessionónot retroactively, but prospectively" of assault weapons, she said. While Feinstein made clear that the bill exempts "over 900 specific weapons," her proposed bill will also ban the sale, transfer, importation and possession of clips of more than 10 bullets. "The purpose of this bill," she said, "is to get Ö weapons of war off the streets of our cities."

...what was disheartening was that it would not go retroactively. So the mom who currently owns an assault weapon won't have to turn it in and her son can do exactly what Adam Lanza did.  Some action in this area is better than none, but going retro would be a great step forward and clean up many more assault weapons.


Offline bocker3

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2012, 05:39:20 PM »
How many of those guns are bought and then travel up I-95 to kill people in the Northeast where there are stricter gun laws? A lot. Mayor Bloomberg & Nutter complain all of the time about Virginia's looseygoosey gun sale laws.

I'll trust a study by an Ivy League peer reviewed study before the Richmond Times-Dispatch any day of the week (or quasi-analysis from some random person on the internet).

I didn't say that I agreed with the Times-Dispatch -- I was merely pointing out that studies and stats are easily manipulated.  Even by Ivy Leaguers ( you sound a bit like "someone else" throwing around that term).   Of course, I did note you ignored my point about the power of a gun to stop a potential assault.  Again -- I am for better gun control, but I don't see the point of bashing people who legally own guns for their own safety (perceived or otherwise).

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Offline RobbyR

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2012, 05:39:57 PM »
I think in this discussion we have to ignore the crazy talk from both ends of the spectrum and focus on what realistically could be done to prevent such tragedies happening again in the future. First off, I am a gun owner myself and my Second Amendment right is important to me. I have never and never will hunt, I only own handguns. I just have some for self protection and for shooting at the gun range on occasion. Most gun owners are responsible, law-abiding citizens. I am responsible, I use them for target practice as well as for self protection, should that need ever arise. If someone ever breaks into my apartment, and it's them or me, I'm damn sure not going to go hide in a corner in my own home! I'll protect myself. I do sleep better knowing I have that protection. That being said, I do think there's steps that can be taken to help prevent these mass shootings. #1.) More intensive background checks, perhaps with psychological screenings attached. #2.) More stringent restrictions on these horribly vicious and violent videogames that kids are obsessed with nowadays. Many of these kids with underlying mental problems have trouble separating reality from fiction. #3.) More proactive teachers & counselors. People need to stop being so damn politically correct and not be afraid to step in and talk to a kid if they seem distant or withdrawn. People have gotten way too scared about hurting someone's feelings. Authority figures need to step in and talk to kids more. #4.) More proactive parenting! It all starts at home folks. Kids need proactive, involved parents who talk to their kids regularly and not just go through the motions.

Now as far as gun control goes, I think we can consider the possibility of renewing the assault weapons ban, but again, this is inherently a people problem not a gun one. The Second Amendment Right is a cherished one, and the vast majority of law abiding gun owners like me should not be punished for some mental case's actions. We can and should limit access to firearms to those with mental health problems or criminal backgrounds, but of course many of these shooters have had no major problems before they committed mass murder. The solution again is more involved parents, school counselors, and mandating mental health screenings in schools in addition to physicals! It might seem old fashioned, but if parents are uncomfortable knowing what their kid is going through, and too scared to talk to them regularly, then they shouldn't be a parent in the first place. When I was growing up my parents constantly asked me how I was doing and how school went, how my extra-curricular activities went, etc..This boosted my self esteem greatly. So to sum up my opinion is we should have much stricter mental health screenings, proactive, involved parents and schools, and where essential, more limited access to firearms but ONLY to those who have been deemed unstable or potentially at risk.
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2012, 05:40:54 PM »
What do you all think about having some type of legislation requiring children with Neurological or psychological impairments not be allowed to live in homes with firearms?


Two things about this:

1. There's still way too much of a taboo surrounding "neuro and psych" issues.  Parents often fail or refuse to recognize this.  You often hear "oh, but he was so nice and normal" or "I would've never pictured him doing something this horrific" after someone goes off the deep end (or gets caught with a body in the freezer).

2. What would happen to the children in this scenario?  Place them in foster care?  I'd be the first to argue against it.

Maybe it would sound slightly better if phrased as: "legislation not permitting the homes with children affected by neurological/psychological impairment to own firearms."  And then you'd have new caveats and slippery slopes as many of  those who want to feel protected by the ownership of a fire weapon would simply not get their children diagnosed or treated.  Then there's depression in otherwise "normally" functioning individuals.   Also, there'd be the argument as to how constitutionally correct it would be for family X to be allowed to own a gun and not for family Y.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2012, 05:43:06 PM »
Two things about this:



Maybe it would sound slightly better if phrased as: "legislation not permitting the homes with children affected by neurological/psychological impairment to own firearms." 

this ^ is actually what I was going for, I jsut expressed it incorrectly.

absolutely no foster care.

Parents have to get rid of the firearms.

*edited to add- and CERTAINLY not allow the parents to take such kids to the firing range to target practice

« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 05:50:22 PM by WillyWump »
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Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2012, 05:45:28 PM »
Really necessary?


Here's what I would do If I were king of the world:

Ban Assualt weapons.
Ban Semiautomatic weapons (yes, even 9mm pistols, etc...)
Ban High capacity Clips
Ban Gun shows
28 day waiting periods for gun purchases, including background checks.

Those who desired to have a firearm in their homes could have revolvers.

this seems to be a realistic concept.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2012, 05:57:10 PM »
this seems to be a realistic concept.

Until the NRA hears of it :(
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Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2012, 06:02:53 PM »
oddly enough i feel maybe SOMETHING will come of this.
at least a step.
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2012, 06:29:41 PM »
Looking for more research, but this is a start:

"For years, researchers have been trying to investigate whether carrying a gun is protective or risky. But getting the answer through science has proved elusive. Now, University of Pennsylvania researcher Charles Branas has tried a new tack -- employing methods normally used by epidemiologists to study cancer and other diseases.

Branas compared a group of shooting victims to a similar set of "controls" who had not been shot. His results, he said, show that guns did not, on average, protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault -- and in fact raised the risk by four times or more.

"People shouldn't feel that firearms are going to enhance their safety," Branas said. The study was published in the current issue of the prestigious American Journal of Public Health."

Source:http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/10/does_carrying_a_gun_make_you_s.html

and....

"Keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one, according to a study by Arthur Kellermann. The National Rifle Association has fiercely attacked this study, but it remains valid despite its criticisms. The study found that people are 21 times more likely to be killed by someone they know than a stranger breaking into the house. Half of the murders were over arguments or romantic triangles. The study also found that the increased murder rate in gun-owning households was entirely due to an increase in gun homicides only, not any other murder method. It further found that gun-owning households saw an increased murder risk by family or intimate acquaintances, not by strangers or non-intimate acquaintances. The most straightforward explanation is that the presence of a gun increases the possibility that a normal family fight or drinking binge will become deadly. No other explanation fits the above facts."

Source: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm

and...

""Does a Gun in the Home Make You Safer?

No. Despite claims by the National Rifle Association (NRA) that you need a gun in your home to protect yourself and your family, public health research demonstrates that the person most likely to shoot you or a family member with a gun already has the keys to your house. Simply put: guns kept in the home for self-protection are more often used to kill somebody you know than to kill in self-defense; 22 times more likely, according to a 1998 study by the Journal of Trauma.[1] More kids, teenagers and adult family members are dying from firearms in their own home than criminal intruders. When someone is home, a gun is used for protection in fewer than two percent of home invasion crimes.[2] You may be surprised to know that, in 1999, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, there were only 154 justifiable homicides committed by private citizens with a firearm compared with a total of 8,259 firearm murders in the United States. Once a bullet leaves a gun, who is to say that it will stop only a criminal and not a family member? Yet at every opportunity the NRA uses the fear of crime to promote the need for ordinary citizens to keep guns in their home for self-protection. Furthermore, the NRA continues to oppose life-saving measures that require safe-storage of guns in the home."

Source:http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-66370.html

Just another "random" thought.... what kind of society are we when bearing arms is a right, but healthcare is a priviledge?   Makes one wonder....

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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2012, 06:32:21 PM »
Phil, I already linked to the University of Pennsylvania study below. Of course, it was "dismissed" by the gun toting queers on the forum. It's more important that since Daddy owned a gun that they own one too.
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Offline OneTampa

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2012, 06:39:40 PM »
 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2012, 06:41:12 PM »
Phil, I already linked to the University of Pennsylvania study below. Of course, it was "dismissed" by the gun toting queers on the forum. It's more important that since Daddy owned a gun that they own one too.

Oops, sorry - just noticed that...

Well, dayummm, my daddy was married to a woman ---- be right back - have to go find me a bride....
Daddy also had an 8-track player - must get one of those too...

BTW, when I was robbed at gunpoint a few years ago, the police specifically told me that it was a good thing I did not have a weapon on me, as typically, if someone robs you and you have a weapon - if you are not "quick" enough to be able to use it against the person robbing you - it will usually be used on you. There would have been no way I could have used it as the whole event occurred within a 30 second window.

I live in what would be considered a "high crime" area and have never felt the need to have a gun - as I know for a fact that it either would never be used or could be used against me.... and this is from a veteran who shot many different types of weapons in the military but was never comfortable knowing that I had the kind of responsibility that put me behind the power of a weapon that could take a life.....

It only takes one time for something horrible to happen - and the person that owns a gun suddenly says.... "why did I ever own this...."  I tend to function off of a cost-benefit analysis of most things in life - and to me (my opinion only) the cost of owning a gun and potential consequences far outweigh any unlikely benefit to be achieved.

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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2012, 06:43:24 PM »
Change.org petition to reinstitute the Assault Weapons ban

http://www.change.org/petitions/president-barack-obama-support-stricter-gun-laws-and-reinstitute-the-assault-weapons-ban

My personal belief is this is not enough, but its a start.  ???

-Will
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 06:57:32 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline Jmarksto

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2012, 07:28:16 PM »

As someone who has witnessed gun violence up close and personal, this is how I really feel:

I have no problems taking all of your motherfuckin' guns away.

As someone who appreciates civility and compromise, I would make WillWump king for a day:

Quote from: WillyWump on Today at 03:31:53 PM
Really necessary?


Here's what I would do If I were king of the world:

Ban Assualt weapons.
Ban Semiautomatic weapons (yes, even 9mm pistols, etc...)
Ban High capacity Clips
Ban Gun shows
28 day waiting periods for gun purchases, including background checks.

Those who desired to have a firearm in their homes could have revolvers.


As a realist, I am afraid we will grieve, debate, debate, debate, the issue will fade, and nothing will change....

I would love to be wrong,
JM
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2012, 07:44:38 PM »
I think in this discussion we have to ignore the crazy talk from both ends of the spectrum and focus on what realistically could be done to prevent such tragedies happening again in the future. First off, I am a gun owner myself and my Second Amendment right is important to me. I have never and never will hunt, I only own handguns. I just have some for self protection and for shooting at the gun range on occasion. Most gun owners are responsible, law-abiding citizens. I am responsible, I use them for target practice as well as for self protection, should that need ever arise. If someone ever breaks into my apartment, and it's them or me, I'm damn sure not going to go hide in a corner in my own home! I'll protect myself. I do sleep better knowing I have that protection. That being said, I do think there's steps that can be taken to help prevent these mass shootings. #1.) More intensive background checks, perhaps with psychological screenings attached. #2.) More stringent restrictions on these horribly vicious and violent videogames that kids are obsessed with nowadays. Many of these kids with underlying mental problems have trouble separating reality from fiction. #3.) More proactive teachers & counselors. People need to stop being so damn politically correct and not be afraid to step in and talk to a kid if they seem distant or withdrawn. People have gotten way too scared about hurting someone's feelings. Authority figures need to step in and talk to kids more. #4.) More proactive parenting! It all starts at home folks. Kids need proactive, involved parents who talk to their kids regularly and not just go through the motions.

Now as far as gun control goes, I think we can consider the possibility of renewing the assault weapons ban, but again, this is inherently a people problem not a gun one. The Second Amendment Right is a cherished one, and the vast majority of law abiding gun owners like me should not be punished for some mental case's actions. We can and should limit access to firearms to those with mental health problems or criminal backgrounds, but of course many of these shooters have had no major problems before they committed mass murder. The solution again is more involved parents, school counselors, and mandating mental health screenings in schools in addition to physicals! It might seem old fashioned, but if parents are uncomfortable knowing what their kid is going through, and too scared to talk to them regularly, then they shouldn't be a parent in the first place. When I was growing up my parents constantly asked me how I was doing and how school went, how my extra-curricular activities went, etc..This boosted my self esteem greatly. So to sum up my opinion is we should have much stricter mental health screenings, proactive, involved parents and schools, and where essential, more limited access to firearms but ONLY to those who have been deemed unstable or potentially at risk.

How did any of you ever get the idea that a 230+? year old document says everyone in 2012 should have the right to assault weapons and war toys?

You may be responsible but there are how many crack pots a year out there slaying down dozens of people at a clip with these stupid weapons.

Time to "bite the bullet" and accept a damn compromise to your so-called "cherished" right, which huge amounts of the population certainly don't cherish.  Nor will you when some whack job shoots up your neighborhood.

Geez louise.

Go ahead and keep your revolver but could we please keep these god awful gangster and war weapons out of peoples hands and homes. 

Again, this is not rocket science. 

Selfish selfish selfish.  Is there NO understanding of how we all must adjust to the times, and make compromises for the common good and our fellow men? 

Bunch of narcissistic navel-gazers, and rather feeble debaters --- so worried about their rights to own oranges that they can't understand a ban on poison fucking apples.  Its all fruit, right, so "hands off".  Dumb.

I say, give the assault weapons to the native americans and let -em take back everything stolen in the first place.  Let the "injuns" pry the weapons out of your cold dead hands.  Ha ha. 

No nuance, no subtlety, just me me me me -- based on an extremely rigid insistence there's only ONE way to read the Constitution. The one that favors my individualism and absolute liberty. 




« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 07:50:51 PM by mecch »
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2012, 07:57:45 PM »
mecch, what is your stance on drinking and driving?

The Carrollton, Kentucky bus collision was one of the deadliest bus disasters in United States history.
 
About 11:00 p.m. EDT on Saturday May 14, 1988, Larry Mahoney, a drunk driver in a pickup truck traveling in the wrong direction on an interstate highway in a rural, unincorporated area of Carroll County, Kentucky collided head-on with a gasoline-powered former school bus which was in use as a church bus. The initial crash was exacerbated when the gasoline from the ruptured fuel tank of the bus ignited immediately after impact, which also blocked the front loading door. Difficulties encountered by the victims attempting to evacuate the crowded bus quickly in the smoke and darkness through the only other designated exit, the rear emergency door, resulted in the death of 27 people and injured 34 of 67 passengers. Six passengers escaped without significant injury. Mahoney also sustained injuries.
 
In the aftermath of the disaster, several family members of victims became active leaders of Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), and one became national president of the organization (Karolyn Nunnallee). The standards for both operation and equipment for school buses and similar buses were improved in Kentucky and many other states, notably increased emergency exits, better structural integrity, and less volatile fuel.
 
Other safety issues remain to be addressed. Flammability of materials used in bus seating must also be factored with cost, durability and performance of the foam in impact situations. Another unresolved issue is the lack of requirements for occupant restraints such as seat belts in larger capacity school buses.
 
On Interstate 71, the crash site is marked with a highway sign erected by the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet (KYTC). Even twenty years later, memorial items such as crosses and flower arrangements are placed at the site by families and friends. The Carrollton crash remains the second worst bus crash in U.S. history tied for fatalities with the Prestonsburg bus disaster which occurred 30 years earlier in Floyd County, Kentucky in 1958. The only deadlier crash was the Yuba City bus disaster in 1976, which killed 29 people.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2012, 08:07:37 PM »
A brain is a dangerous thing to waste.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2012, 08:12:56 PM »
Yes, alcohol does cause brain waisting.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2012, 08:16:44 PM »
First, I think it is definitely important that various forms of gun control measures be explored and implemented - including some of those previously mentioned in this thread...

Now, with that said, there have also been several research studies done which have shown a significant increase in the amount of mass murders committed by persons with mental illnesses.

For those 45 years and older, do you remember a long time ago when most states and counties had large state mental health hospitals?

Well, around mid to end of the 1960s, based on what was termed a "progressive movement" states began closing these institutions (or seriously down-sizing them), as it was felt that given new medications, most persons who were mentally ill could receive "community-based treatment" outside of these hospitals.

However, the real reason states closed these institutions was because of a provision that was put into Medicaid called IMD (institutes for mental disease) - this exclusion said that the federal government would not pay its up to 50% share of costs associated for mental health care for anyone who was treated in a mental health hospital larger than 14 beds.....  States did not want to lose this federal money - so, they began putting many seriously mentally ill people into the community, reduced the number of people who were placed into facilities, and limited the number of days that persons w/ severe, persistant mental illness were kept in hospitals (discharging and making treatment decisions based off financial considerations - not best treatment practices or safety of the client or community).

NAMI (National Association for the Mentally Ill) is fighting to get the exclusion provision removed - so that those people who truly need to be hospitalized, long-term in institutions can be on the front end; instead of waiting until the person harms him/herself or others in the community for action to be taken.

The states' lack of providing adequate funding for mental health; failure to adequately prepare sufficient community-based services for the deinstitutionalization that occurred (and continues to occur) and the federal government's enactment of the IMD exclusionary provision are part of the reason why there has been a serious uptick in the amount of horrendous mass murders that have been committed by persons whose severe mental illness would have previously had them secured in an appropriate inpatient mental health hospital for the safety of the community and the person (IMD and deinstitutionalization also led to what we see now as a huge increase in the number of homeless persons w/ severe mental illness and our jails and prisons becoming the mental health "hospitals" of the 21st Century).

So, in addition to gun control - we need to ensure that MH treatment (including long-term institutionalization) occurs based on treatment need, safety and not on protecting the state or feds pocketbooks.
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Offline Jmarksto

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2012, 08:17:17 PM »
mecch, what is your stance on drinking and driving?

Ok, I'll bite...is the implication here that there is some analogue between drunk driving accidents and gun violence?  At the risk of really pissing of Miss P, can you expand?
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2012, 08:23:11 PM »
No just showing the similarities of both. Put alcohol or guns in the wrong hands can lead to death. Not all people that own guns or drink are irresponsible.

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2012, 08:23:17 PM »
Ok, I'll bite...is the implication here that there is some analogue between drunk driving accidents and gun violence?  At the risk of really pissing of Miss P, can you expand?

Miss P hasn't owned a car since 1989, so I can't be accused of buying Cold Pop, having bronchitis or having time for any of this line of questioning from the Red Herring Sage of southern Ohio.
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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2012, 08:23:33 PM »
mecch, what is your stance on drinking and driving?


With whatever respect that is due, this is an absurd (I'd like to call it something else, but there's no need for it), unintelligent, and irrelevant argument. 
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Offline RobbyR

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2012, 08:25:46 PM »
I won't dignify some of the ridiculous remarks with a response, just to say that I concede some gun restrictions are needed, and that again most gun owners are responsible people. If someone breaks into your house, and is threatening your life, I am going to protect myself. Hopefully I would never have to do that. But people have the right to protect themselves if they are sane, law abiding citizens. People need to take personal responsibility for their own actions, what a novel concept! However I do concede that the assault weapons ban should be reinstated, I think that could be a common ground at some point. The key is making access to the most deadly types of assault weapons much more difficult for people with mental health problems. I think we need to think about MAJORLY revising mental health in this country, maybe in some way reviving the older systems of institutions for people with major issues. And limit violence in video games marketed to kids, and parents getting their heads out of cell phones and televisions long enough to get to know their kids! Just my opinion. I think we can all agree more needs to be done to keep this from happening again, just a matter of approach.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #128 on: December 16, 2012, 08:29:18 PM »

With whatever respect that is due, this is an absurd (I'd like to call it something else, but there's no need for it), unintelligent, and irrelevant argument. 
Absurd? What, it's okay for you to want to place bans on guns and not alcohol? Look up the satistics, the US has more DUI deaths than we do gun deaths.

Offline Jmarksto

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #129 on: December 16, 2012, 08:31:00 PM »
No just showing the similarities of both. Put alcohol or guns in the wrong hands can lead to death. Not all people that own guns or drink are irresponsible.

Your question wasn't about drinking, but drinking and driving.

 - Do you agree that drinking and driving is irresponsible?

 - Do you agree that we have more regulation for the operation of a motor vehicle than owning a gun?

 - If owning a gun and drinking and driving are analogous, then lets have more regulation for owning a gun.

Agreed?
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #130 on: December 16, 2012, 08:31:27 PM »
I recognize that people want to talk about mental health. I think that you can't solve the fact that there are insane people in cultures and you probably can never find a perfect mental health system, just always tweak the one you got and can both stomach and afford. 

All of this mental health stuff seems to be both a smokescreen and not an effective way to stop these massacres. Make it impossible for private citizens to have assault weapons.

ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #131 on: December 16, 2012, 08:33:18 PM »

All of this mental health stuff seems to be both a smokescreen and not an effective way to stop these massacres.

Well, of course it's a smokescreen. It comes from the same rightwing folks who never want their taxes raised, and want ever continual cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. It's like being anti-abortion but not wanting to pay for orphanages.
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Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #132 on: December 16, 2012, 08:34:32 PM »
Make it impossible for private citizens to have assault weapons.

THIS^ !!!

plus more.

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Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #133 on: December 16, 2012, 08:35:24 PM »
I think we need to think about MAJORLY revising mental health in this country, maybe in some way reviving the older systems of institutions for people with major issues.

And limit violence in video games marketed to kids,

and parents getting their heads out of cell phones and televisions long enough to get to know their kids!


I have a really serious problem with this demonizing of mental illness. It does nothing but create scapegoats for an entire (and very broad) group of people who are often the victims of violence themselves. 

Lets quit eating what the chicken pecks and blaming the evil influences of rap/hip-hop and video games, the overwhelmed teachers, and whatever else and recognize that the problem is with guns.

I think I need me a cold pop myself. Ain't nobody got time for this rubbish.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #134 on: December 16, 2012, 08:37:56 PM »

I think I need me a cold pop myself. Ain't nobody got time for this rubbish.

mmmm... RC Cola is teh bestest... now you know you got time for that!

ps: I thought "Cold Pop" referred to some brand of popsicles or something
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Jmarksto

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #135 on: December 16, 2012, 08:44:02 PM »
Absurd? What, it's okay for you to want to place bans on guns and not alcohol? Look up the satistics, the US has more DUI deaths than we do gun deaths.

Rod;  The problem with this argument is that you are referencing absolute numbers of two unrelated events and calling it statistics.  In order to be statistically correct, you need to equate (or normalize) the two events with each other.  For example, you could establish a ratio of deaths per event (death and non-death included) for each situation and compare them.  So it would have to be DUI deaths divided by all DUI (including non death) trips, compared to gun deaths divided by all (death and non-death) shootings.

I am curious to see how the math works out...

JM

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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #136 on: December 16, 2012, 08:53:02 PM »
For those 45 years and older, do you remember a long time ago when most states and counties had large state mental health hospitals? ...

So, in addition to gun control - we need to ensure that MH treatment (including long-term institutionalization) occurs based on treatment need, safety and not on protecting the state or feds pocketbooks.

Thanks for pointing this out and you are exactly right. Last year the Department of Justice found the State of NC in violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act because they were not providing community services or appropriate treatment settings for people with chronic mental health problem. The mental health agencies were placing seriously mentally I'll people in adult care homes and there were several incidents of elderly people being assaulted. It isn't until people get hurt that change happens.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:58:23 PM by GSOgymrat »

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #137 on: December 16, 2012, 08:53:40 PM »
mmmm... RC Cola is teh bestest... now you know you got time for that!

ps: I thought "Cold Pop" referred to some brand of popsicles or something

I haven't seen RC Cola in a while.  The last time that I had one was in March during a trip to Colombia. 

When I first moved down to Miami someone asked me if I wanted a pop. I looked at them with a puzzled face and they clarified "a soda pop".  I thought it was too cute.  Sounded so 1940s or something.

In the meantime I'm having a nice cup of eggnog from Farm Stores (known down here as "La Vaquita") with a heavy shot of rum.  Delicious.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #138 on: December 16, 2012, 08:54:03 PM »
I can agree with those Americans who like their 2nd amendment and want to have a revolver, or hunting guns.

I doubt the US can rescind that right. 

(But hey, we got abortion and I could imagine that being taken away....  Other rights do disappear over time.  You don't have an unlimited right to free assembly.  Smoking bans have taken away some freedom. etc. etc.) 

I have been held up by gun point. After he got the valuables, he announced he would shoot me, but hen dropped his arm and walked away.  It was horrific to say the least.  I was on a murder trial once.  They arrested this guy and over the course of the trial, it became clear there were many people at the scene of the crime (drug dealing) and they ALL had guns -- not to mention multiple names...  I guess growing up in a non gun owning and non-hunting family, I never felt the need for a gun, despite my urban experiences above, and living in sketchy neighborhoods.

I might want a gun if I lived in rural isolation.

None of this has much to do with crackpots finding it pretty easy to have automatic weapons and arms stockpiles.

What is the situation now in American publics schooling?  All schools have metal detectors and limited access in and out? 

I can't imagine all schools having armed guards... Who would pay for that? And wouldn't they have to be genuinely sharp shooting highly trained armed guards to ever hope they could be effective?

And anyway, schools aside, how can ALL businesses ever hope to afford armed guards... ??

More guns everywhere and for everyone, how could this possibly be the solution?



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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #139 on: December 16, 2012, 08:59:42 PM »
I hope some of you caught the President speaking at the vigil moments ago. It was stunning.

Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #140 on: December 16, 2012, 08:59:50 PM »
Lets quit eating what the chicken pecks and blaming the evil influences of rap/hip-hop and video games, the overwhelmed teachers, and whatever else and recognize that the problem is with guns.
Here here.
I mean really, folks. Hip Hop?  Video games? Heavy metal?  Lack of locked psychiatric hospitals?  Yeah its all deplorable. (Cept maybe the lack of locked psycho wards, as I'm a bit too shaken by American Horror Story and my vivid memories of visits to New York State mental hospitals in the 70s. Since closed, thank god.)
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #141 on: December 16, 2012, 09:12:59 PM »
I'm actually in shock after watching the President speak. You all really need to hear it.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #142 on: December 16, 2012, 09:18:23 PM »


What is the situation now in American publics schooling?  All schools have metal detectors and limited access in and out? 



I went to pick up my 13yo a few weeks ago, The security consisted of...a sign at the front door saying all visitors must proceed directly to office to sign in. Doors wide open. From what I understand there is one Sheriffs Deputy asssigned to all the schools in my sons district, a small district not unlike Sandy hook.

The Sandy Hook School had a fairly progressive security system in...but it couldnt stop someone from shooting out the door.

Most districts have School Police, but they are delegated mainly to the high schools and their presence at lower grades are nearly non-existant. However even at the high schools polcie can be hard to find as there jsut arent enough of them.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 09:21:10 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline emeraldize

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2012, 09:19:56 PM »
I'm actually in shock after watching the President speak. You all really need to hear it.

I watched every minute of it.

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2012, 09:22:12 PM »
I'm actually in shock after watching the President speak. You all really need to hear it.

I'm glad that I was recording a show at 8:30 and that the entire speech got recorded instead.  It is a truly amazing and emotional delivery.
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2012, 09:28:07 PM »
I recognize that people want to talk about mental health. I think that you can't solve the fact that there are insane people in cultures and you probably can never find a perfect mental health system, just always tweak the one you got and can both stomach and afford. 

All of this mental health stuff seems to be both a smokescreen and not an effective way to stop these massacres. Make it impossible for private citizens to have assault weapons.

Improving mental health services is not necessarily going to prevent massacres but it always comes up when you have a tragedy like this one. Everyone wants to know why this happened and how it keep it from happening again but there are no easy answers. Mental health services tend to focus more on helping people deal with tragedies rather than preventing the tragedies. I could be wrong but don't think Adam Lanza even had a mental history.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #146 on: December 16, 2012, 09:30:59 PM »
Can anyone provide a link to the speech. Been trying to find one but haven't been able to so far.
Andy Velez

Offline Rev. Moon

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2012, 09:35:39 PM »
Can anyone provide a link to the speech. Been trying to find one but haven't been able to so far.


http://youtu.be/M1gSsm5xlKQ
"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Online mitch777

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #148 on: December 16, 2012, 10:11:02 PM »
historic speech.

a must see!
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #149 on: December 16, 2012, 10:16:47 PM »
Can anyone provide a link to the speech. Been trying to find one but haven't been able to so far.

Just FYI about something I have been using for a little while.  The White House has an app for android and Apple.  There is a LIVE section with alerts.  You see the reporters getting ready for news conferences and they often stream all news conferences and presidential speeches, even those from around the world.  Good app and a way to bypass the news networks cutting away. 

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #150 on: December 16, 2012, 10:42:30 PM »
Really necessary?


Here's what I would do If I were king of the world:

Ban Assualt weapons.
Ban Semiautomatic weapons (yes, even 9mm pistols, etc...)
Ban High capacity Clips
Ban Gun shows
28 day waiting periods for gun purchases, including background checks.

Those who desired to have a firearm in their homes could have revolvers.

One more thing before I go to bed...Until something like this^ can get implemented we need to immediately, tomorrow, Make serious steps towards protecting our children by placing ARMED Off-duty/on duty policeman in each school across the US. Or National Guard?

In reality what else can we do?

No one thought anyone would ever walk into a Elemterary school and execute kindergatners...I would hate to have the unthinkable happen again while we try to hash out a legislative response. "copycats", etc...

-W
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:44:53 PM by WillyWump »
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2012, 10:57:52 PM »
It takes a certain amount of spunk to quote yourself in a thread.

ps: I don't "have" children so I don't need to do shit.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2012, 12:08:36 AM »
So what if we put guards in the elementary schools?  Then what?  What about daycares?  What about subways?  What about shopping malls?  What about strip malls?  What about bowling alleys?  Boardwalks?  On buses?  Restaurants?  Hotel lobbies?

Do we try to lock down the whole planet?  Or do we try to reduce the amount of weapons of mass destruction out on the streets?  Which makes more sense?
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2012, 12:51:15 AM »
We should tax gun owners and firearm manufactureres to pay for increased security in every public place. Chicago just last month levied a tax on firearms to pay for healthcare costs due to gun violence, the first jurisdiction in the US to do so.
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Offline tednlou2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2012, 02:06:31 AM »
We should tax gun owners and firearm manufactureres to pay for increased security in every public place. Chicago just last month levied a tax on firearms to pay for healthcare costs due to gun violence, the first jurisdiction in the US to do so.

I like this idea.  We tax cigarettes.  Those taxes were sold, saying it would lower smoking rates and help cover the millions spent for smoking related illnesses.  And, many have quit.  I have no idea how much of the taxes go to reimburse healthcare costs. 

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2012, 02:32:04 AM »
I have a car. I have to pay insurance in case I kill people with it.

Why don't gun owners have the same obligation?

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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #156 on: December 17, 2012, 02:41:03 AM »

Why don't gun owners have the same obligation?


They think society should subsidize their never ending quest of validating their manhood.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #157 on: December 17, 2012, 05:43:39 AM »
We should tax gun owners and firearm manufactureres to pay for increased security in every public place. Chicago just last month levied a tax on firearms to pay for healthcare costs due to gun violence, the first jurisdiction in the US to do so.
Yes and they should tax the hell out of alcohol like they do cigarettes.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #158 on: December 17, 2012, 05:52:00 AM »
It takes a certain amount of spunk to quote yourself in a thread.

ps: I don't "have" children so I don't need to do shit.
You don't have any spunk either. After six years of listening to you "spout" off  from topics ranging from A to Z you still blabber about nothing. You like to take jabs at people, but when it's reversed you cry like a little girl.

Offline Ann

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #159 on: December 17, 2012, 08:27:13 AM »
Look ass-wipe even you aren't dense enough not to understand the response I was giving to Windy what's-her-face "imagine" scenario. I haven't gone after you or anyone else for owning a gun or suggested we get rid of the second amendment. Got that? And just to make a bed wetter like you feel better, you can go beat off knowing that I own a 38.

Dox, unless I missed it somehow (and I carefully read the entire thread before commenting), you are the ONLY person who stooped to this level of name-calling. You could easily have gotten your point across without it, so I don't understand why you did it. You're more articulate than that and despite high emotions, you should have thought twice.

Consider yourself warned.

More name-calling outburst in this thread by you or anyone else will result in the lockdown of this thread and the Time Out of the name-caller.

I hope this is the last warning needed in this thread.

Ann
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #160 on: December 17, 2012, 08:37:42 AM »
That's fine, but did you read Rod's last post?

Offline Ann

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #161 on: December 17, 2012, 08:53:50 AM »
That's fine, but did you read Rod's last post?

Yep, but he didn't resort to name calling. Philly (who Rod directed his last comment at) has made much more pointed comments himself, but he's smart enough to refrain from school-yard name-calling.

Personally, I think some of the fighting and strawman arguments in this thread are pretty puerile, but as long as you're not calling each other names, have at it.



I'm too sickened by the whole thing (what sparked the debate as well as the debate itself both here and elsewhere) to make much comment myself. I'm just thankful I live in an area of the world where personal gun ownership is strictly regulated and I don't have to worry about people running around with concealed weapons, semi-automatics and/or assault rifles. People where I live just shake their heads at American gun laws and wonder when the madness will end, if it ever ends.



edited for spelling
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 08:56:17 AM by Ann »
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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #162 on: December 17, 2012, 09:12:02 AM »
Doxie, no more responses like "ass wipe." Stop it right now. And anything of similar ilk from anyone else.

I know this subject stirs very strong feelings. But namecalling and such are totally unacceptable and will not be tolerated. This is such a sad time. Don't make me hand out Time Outs. But I will if there is anymore acrimony in any of the exchanges.

Nasty and angry exchanges are unworthy in the face of this tragedy. So please...desist.
Andy Velez

Offline Dachshund

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #163 on: December 17, 2012, 09:21:18 AM »
With all due respect Andy is it really necessary for you to issue a warning after Ann has already issued one? I understood the first warning and I think so did everyone else.

Offline zach

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #164 on: December 17, 2012, 10:09:08 AM »
i need more popcorn... i just knew i could come back here and find the same old names bickering away. predictability can be a wonderful thing. yall play your parts so wonderfully, its like you're reading a script. how long did it take some of you to develop your characters?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 10:34:26 AM by zach »
man I just want a joint, a beer, my dog and my guitar. go on up a mountain, sit and watch the world end. with a girls head on my chest to sleep. peace and happiness

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #165 on: December 17, 2012, 10:42:27 AM »
i need more popcorn... i just knew i could come back here and find the same old names bickering away. predictability can be a wonderful thing. yall play your parts so wonderfully, its like you're reading a script. how long did it take some of you to cultivate your characters?

We are The Real Housewives of HIV. I'm cutting a demo record and blowing Andy Cohen so I can get a my own spin off-- GSOgymrat's Big Gay Roadtrip. Stay tuned!

Offline WillyWump

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #166 on: December 17, 2012, 10:55:36 AM »

Do we try to lock down the whole planet?  Or do we try to reduce the amount of weapons of mass destruction out on the streets?  Which makes more sense?

I'm not talking about lockind down anything, Im talking about putting an officer in each school.


Kind of like what Austin is doing this morning...

http://www.kvue.com/news/Austin-Police-presence-at-AISD-schools-Monday-morning-183765801.html

and spoke to my son's mother this morning, she confirmed that there are armed Constables at every school in my sons district, including elementary.

That is what makes sense right now today.

although I realize this is probably temporary and will last only a few days, I would love to see it permanent until we can get the weapons taken care of.

Our Children are worth it.


We should tax gun owners and firearm manufactureres to pay for increased security in every public place. Chicago just last month levied a tax on firearms to pay for healthcare costs due to gun violence, the first jurisdiction in the US to do so.

I Like this ^
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 11:17:14 AM by WillyWump »
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Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #167 on: December 17, 2012, 10:56:22 AM »
Yes and they should tax the hell out of alcohol like they do cigarettes.

Aren't there already high taxes on alcohol?
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #168 on: December 17, 2012, 10:57:44 AM »
i need more popcorn... i just knew i could come back here and find the same old names bickering away. predictability can be a wonderful thing. yall play your parts so wonderfully, its like you're reading a script. how long did it take some of you to develop your characters?
Unclear if you are enjoying the spectacle or not. If you're enjoying it, don't complain. If not, switch the channel.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline zach

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #169 on: December 17, 2012, 11:02:30 AM »
seriously though, the 2nd amendment is clear cut, short, and easy to understand. without abolishing that amendment, any infringment on the right to bear arms will be easy as pie to challenge.

and how do you propose seizing the firearms that people already own? it will be a self fulfilling prophecy. the extreme right will say "see, we told you this would happen, they are coming." it will start a war that will rip this country apart.

knee jerk reactionary feel good laws aren't going to solve the problem.

and mecch, i'm not complaining, but if i was i wouldn't heed your instructions anyway thanks. and i switched this channel some time ago.
man I just want a joint, a beer, my dog and my guitar. go on up a mountain, sit and watch the world end. with a girls head on my chest to sleep. peace and happiness

Offline mecch

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #170 on: December 17, 2012, 11:07:21 AM »
The Constitution protected slavery, until it did not, with the 13th amendment.
ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Offline zach

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #171 on: December 17, 2012, 11:15:23 AM »
indeed, it is a fluid living document. i've never liked the founding fathers argument much, its a little to simplistic.

my point is not that it can't or shouldn't be changed, its that half measures that contradict such plain spoken language are far to easy to challenge. you knee jerk, write an overly broad law that will only be struck down, what progress have you made? as long as the 2nd stands, my right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

trying to capitalize on this tragedy is going to backfire.
man I just want a joint, a beer, my dog and my guitar. go on up a mountain, sit and watch the world end. with a girls head on my chest to sleep. peace and happiness

Offline buginme2

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #172 on: December 17, 2012, 11:18:50 AM »
seriously though, the 2nd amendment is clear cut, short, and easy to understand. without abolishing that amendment, any infringment on the right to bear arms will be easy as pie to challenge.


None of the amendments of the constitution give an absolute right.  The first amendment while giving the right to free speech has its limitations.  You cannot yell fire in a movie theatre nor do you have the right to speech that incites violence.

The second amendment gives the right to bear arms yet that doesn't mean the right is absolute.  Proper restrictions can be made, just like restrictions have been made to the first amendment (and all the others). 

No right is absolute.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #173 on: December 17, 2012, 11:19:40 AM »
seriously though, the 2nd amendment is clear cut, short, and easy to understand. without abolishing that amendment, any infringment on the right to bear arms will be easy as pie to challenge.

You poor thing. You obviously don't understand that there have been controls on firearms ever since that was written over 200 years ago. Of course, most of them were about taking guns out of the hands of black people so I'm sure that did't bother you.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #174 on: December 17, 2012, 11:27:47 AM »
aww, there she is. please, with your vast knowledge of firearms, tell me more about the controls i've been subject to. you have no experience with guns at all, and you're gonna tell me what i obviously don't understand? you're kidding right?

and whats with the thinly veiled racist accusation? you know nothing about me.
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2012, 11:43:46 AM »
aww, there she is. please, with your vast knowledge of firearms, tell me more about the controls i've been subject to. you have no experience with guns at all, and you're gonna tell me what i obviously don't understand? you're kidding right?

and whats with the thinly veiled racist accusation? you know nothing about me.

Is there something wrong with your reading abilities? It was a historically relevant and accurate statement not an accusation of racism, as was the statement about firearm regulation over the past 200 years.

In fact, even in the recent Supreme Court Heller decision Scalia (the originalist) invented regulations:

be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

Do you, or do you not, agree that someone who has sought mental health care in the past 12 months should or should not be able to own and operate firearms?
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2012, 11:50:04 AM »
Of course, most of them were about taking guns out of the hands of black people so I'm sure that did't bother you.

call it what you want ms p, you don't know me or what bothers me. your suggestion that something wouldn't bother me because it only applied to blacks... yeah, thinly veiled. and my reading comprehension skills are just fine thanks.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 11:53:01 AM by zach »
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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2012, 11:52:27 AM »
call it what you want ms p, you don't know me or what bothers me. your suggestion that something wouldn't bother me because it only applied to blacks... yeah, thinly veiled, and my reading comprehension skills are just fine thanks.

Is it too much to ask you to read the link I provided before becoming Mr. Angry? It's historically accurate that one of the primary kinds of gun control during the "Founding Fathers" period was a firearm restriction on black people. And this continued even after the Civil War. It's rather sad that you're personalizing the issue.

If you don't know the history of gun control maybe you shouldn't try and talk about it.
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Offline zach

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »
your link was after the fact to cya and make your statement about what bothers me appear less inflammatory.

personalized?

"You poor thing.

You obviously don't understand

black people so I'm sure that did't bother you

something wrong with your reading abilities?

you don't know the history of gun control maybe you shouldn't try and talk about it"

so please, tell me again who's personalized this.

i speak from experience, as someone who legally owns firearms and has served in the military in a combat arms MOS. so go ahead, tell me what i know about the history of firearms.
man I just want a joint, a beer, my dog and my guitar. go on up a mountain, sit and watch the world end. with a girls head on my chest to sleep. peace and happiness

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Re: What to do about Gun Violence?
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2012, 12:06:22 PM »
OK, I'm not going to babysit this thread all night while you lot take pot-shots at each other.

While I agree that this debate absolutely DOES need to happen amongst Americans, I don't agree that this tragedy and the resulting debate should be used as an excuse to start a war here amongst people who should know better. This site is supposed to be all about supporting one another, not tearing each other down each and every chance that comes along.

And against the backdrop of which this bickering and slanging match is happening - it's sickening.

I'm locking this thread before it gets any worse.

Start another firearm debate at your peril.

For the reading comprehension challenged amongst you, that means DO NOT START ANOTHER FIREARM DEBATE THREAD ON THIS FORUM.

There are plenty of other websites where you can go have this debate - I suggest you find them.

BTW, no firearm debate in the other thread about this tragedy either. Got it?

Ann
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