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Author Topic: Meds Toxic Effects?  (Read 2533 times)

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Offline Maestro

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  • Posts: 225
Meds Toxic Effects?
« on: October 06, 2006, 08:57:47 AM »
As I read more and more on this forum, from time to time I see someone posting about the "toxic effects" of the meds.  I watched Viread give my Uncle near kidney failure, which I would certainly say is a toxic effect. 

However, it seems a lot of the meds have "side effects" which are not necessarily toxic.  When I see "toxic", I think of poison.  But it really doesnt appear the meds are poisoning anyone.  I am certainly not saying they are a walk in the park, but is it really toxic?  That would imply that the meds themselves lead to the end of the road once they have been "toxic" enough and I just don't see a lot of that happening (at least on this forum)...

M

Offline blondbeauty

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  • Posts: 1,785
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2006, 11:21:30 AM »
We are surrounded by toxic things: food, artificial colourings and additives, pesticides, detergents, antibiotics contained in milk and meat, hormones in meat and poultry, packaging materials...
Giving up smoking, alcohol, and trying to eat right...I am sure this can compensate the toxic effects of meds.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline Christine

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Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2006, 03:27:19 PM »
Hi M,
I think every body responds differently to meds. I think it could be possible that some of the meds could be toxic. I think the key to managing the side effects is to keep in contact with your doctor, know your own body, and if there are any changes call the Dr right away.

Some side effects are manageable, some are unmanageable because of quality of life issues, and some could potentially be life threatening. I have had the first two- rashes I have worked through during the first few weeks; nausea which lasted for months and made me miserable, made eating nearly impossible, and caused me to loose weight.

Your Uncle's problem with his kidneys was defiantly toxic, and needed to be addressed before a permanent problem occurred.

Christine
Poz since '93. Currently on Procrit, Azithromax, Pentamidine, Valcyte, Levothyroxine, Zoloft, Epzicom, Prezista, Viread, Norvir, and GS-9137 study drug. As needed: Trazodone, Atavan, Diflucan, Zofran, Hydrocodone, Octreotide

5/30/07 t-cells 9; vl 275,000

Offline blondbeauty

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  • Posts: 1,785
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2006, 03:49:37 PM »
Taking, for example, more than 500mg of vitamin C a day can also lead to kidney failure...Vitamni A is also toxic. Be careful with supplements.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline HIVworker

  • Member
  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2006, 10:47:45 PM »
I've got to be careful here when I talk about toxicity, because I don't want to land a lawsuit. Drugs by nature are not things the body wants because they are metabolized and/or cleared. Despite hard work, they do have side effects and this is normally a combination of many factors. One is that HIV medication isn't supposed to be stopped, but the combination of many drugs required to keep the virus at check loads the body with compounds it doesn't want.

This is why we must work on therapies to get people OFF medication.

Are they toxic? The studies I have seen on the latest drugs suggest they are not, but I am going to admit an incomplete analysis of the data. You know, never say never. However, a LOT of effort is put into drugs that are not toxic. I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying I haven't seen data saying the latest are. Others will not agree. However, some drugs have interactions that are not good, but that is common to lots of medication and at the right dose they are all toxic. Take enough of any drug and you will reach a toxic dose. Improvements in potency of HIV medication will lead to compounds that are better tolerated. Drugs that are toxic are black-labelled and you should discuss them with you ID doctor.

R
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 10:50:25 PM by HIVworker »
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Arkan

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  • Posts: 13
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2006, 06:09:41 PM »
On this issue there is a lot of information.

Drug companies say they are not toxic based on the fact that the effects of long term use of anti-retrovirals has not been tested. but that's just a lack of data. People on AIDS have a hard time dealing with SECONDARY EFFECTS  of medication. When you get too much of any medication you get intoxicated, however drug therapies for HIV have secondary effects that not necessarily toxic strictly speaking. But those secondary effects are in many cases scary!!

I know there is a large amount of scientific research on non-drug supplements that have proved activity in fighting the HIV in lab conditions, mice and other primates (chimps). But little is being done to push any further such type of research. Most research is done by drug companies, no big secret! This non-drug therapies are out there waiting to be tested in humans, is up to us to find them and use them. By the way most supplements are produced by the body and/or found in foods and herbs.

Just a thought!
Gus
Peace!

Offline HIVworker

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  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2006, 11:30:42 PM »
Drug companies say they are not toxic based on the fact that the effects of long term use of anti-retrovirals has not been tested. but that's just a lack of data.

That's not true. Drug companies say drugs are not toxic based on clinical trials in both healthy and infected people. Drug companies keep a close eye on drugs after they have been accepted for clinical trials to see what the long term effects are. They don't say they are not toxic because they don't have the data. If that were the case they would say they didn't know what the long term side effects are - which often they don't until someone has been on it for years (given there is no model to predict side effects after long term usage). So they don't just say they are non-toxic because they don't know - but rather that none have been found in their studies. The long-term side effects can take years to appear and when they do, there is often no way of predicting them.

Rich
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 11:32:40 PM by HIVworker »
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Jacques

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  • Posts: 171
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2006, 11:42:10 PM »
Perhaps I don't understand well the difference betwen toxicity and side effects but when I see that some of those drugs kill the fat adiposis cells , induce bone loss or liver cirrhosis or damage the mitochondrial cells,  I call it toxicity.

Jacques
Jacques
Living positively since 1987
latest lab :july 2010
Undetectable Cd4 1080
43% on Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Arkan

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2006, 12:08:52 AM »
And that's why I am not thinking about taking any anti-retroviral drugs... see I just can't go around taking a medication that instead of making my body strong, it actually makes more damage. I see the trade off but it is just not a good deal for me. I respect your opinions and decisions, most people is very brave either taking medication or trying alternative supplements. One day we will understand how to fight back the HIV.

Best to all

Gus
Peace!

Offline HIVworker

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  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2006, 12:13:23 AM »
A side effect is generally mild and due to some off target activity of the molecule or a reaction to them. Toxicity is when a tissue or organ is specifically damaged and is generally has a threshold. Toxicity can occur over time. A side effect such as high cholesterol levels can have toxic effects. I'm NOT saying that drugs are without toxicities, but these don't come back until long term use data has been analyzed - and there is Little one can do to predict it. The FDA and most companies would quash a compound that did that in clinical trials. To remove toxicity from long term usage would mean extending the clinical trials to about 5 years. That's not practical as HIV medications are needed now. Companies normally follow their compounds and analyze toxicity data to see whether they are toxic and put warnings on the label when they find them. If the toxicity is high or occurs in a significant amount of the population, the drug is withdrawn or black-labelled.

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline HIVworker

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  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2006, 12:15:08 AM »
Taking drugs or not is a personal issue and you must trust your own decisions and advice from a medical doctor. I think this is why most IDs wait until the body needs them (ie low CD4 count or wild viral loads). You have to make your own mind up whether to take them based on what you read and advice you get.

Rich
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline blondbeauty

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,785
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2006, 09:19:00 AM »
I read a few days ago that more than 50% of the USA population take medications only sold under prescription...Even aspirin can be toxic for certain people. It depends on the person and the dose. I think we are dramatizing this issue too much.
The only member in these forums approved by WINBA: World International Nail and Beauty Association.
Epstein Barr +; CMV +; Toxoplasmosis +; HIV-1 +.
Counts when starting treatment:
V.L.:80.200 copies. CD4: 25%=503
Started Sustiva-Truvada 14/August/2006
Last V.L.count (Oct 2013): Undetectable
Last CD4 count (OCT 2013): 52%= 933

Offline ARMANDO

  • Member
  • Posts: 243
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2006, 11:42:13 AM »
well i do know for a fact that the drugs are toxic.I have had alot of friends who have died but yet the doctors all say that it was not  a results from aids but rather as a result of the drugs having an affect on the kidneys,liver,pancreas and so on!!!I KNOW that it is only a matter of time before we all go down that same road too and there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it!!!!

Offline HIVworker

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  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2006, 07:29:48 PM »
well i do know for a fact that the drugs are toxic.I have had alot of friends who have died but yet the doctors all say that it was not  a results from aids but rather as a result of the drugs having an affect on the kidneys,liver,pancreas and so on!!!I KNOW that it is only a matter of time before we all go down that same road too and there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it!!!!

And that doctor's opinion was reported to someone? Did they have evidence? If so they should have contacted the company AT ONCE because it is vital that this sort of information gets back. Shame on that doctor for his own malpractice. If it was true and he/she did nothing, they have put other people at risk because they chose not to report the data. Drug companies by law can not ignore it. That or it was hand-waving.

I find the whole post alarmist for no real reason.

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Maestro

  • Member
  • Posts: 225
Re: Meds Toxic Effects?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2006, 11:02:39 AM »
Im sorry if I was not clear.  I think there is a distinction between toxicity and side effects (and for that matter, allergic or adverse reactions).


 


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