Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
E-newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr MySpace
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 23, 2014, 02:02:00 PM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
  • Total Members: 22251
  • Latest: dazeel
Stats
  • Total Posts: 621159
  • Total Topics: 46790
  • Online Today: 267
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!  (Read 2178 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lostinthecorn

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Don't look at me that way, look at me THIS way!
Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« on: October 27, 2012, 09:47:06 PM »
Hoping I won't have many/any new side effects since i was taking Truvada previously and we're really just removing the Norvir & Prezista and replacing it with efavirenz... anyone been in a similar situation?  Still sort of not sure why the doc insisted on switching me after a just a month on the other regimen, other than going from 4 pills to 1... other than it being "tried and proven." *Shrug*

Hope everyone's having a good weekend!
1/2014 - CD4 446 | HIV VL 157 (i was sick that week too!)
11/2013 - changed from Atripla to Complera (not from CD4 drop, because Sustiva makes me crazy!)
10/2013 - CD4 214 VL UD
9/2013 - CD4 276 VL UD
7/2013 - CD4 367 VL UD
4/8/13 - CD4 288/23% | HIV VL UD! | HBV VL 86
1/15/13 - CD4 239/21% | HIV VL 43 | HBV VL 2800
11/15/12 - VL 1,100 :)
10/27/12 - Switch to Atripla
10/15/12 - Changed from Bactrim to Dapsone
9/25/12 - Diag HBV+, CD4 49 CD4% 13.8  VL 1.2Mil
(started Norvir, Prezista, Truvada + Bactrim + Fluconazole)
9/21/12 - Diag HIV+

Offline emeraldize

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,271
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 10:27:31 PM »
Hiya Lost,

Here to deliver a wish of luck for you.

And, sweet dreams!!

Em

Offline phildinftlaudy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,950
  • sweet Ann what you think babe...
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 10:29:04 PM »
Good luck w/ the Atripla.
For many people it is a great med - only side effects I have ever had were elevated triglycerides and some vivid dreams (a little grogginess the first week or so)

There are some people who don't tolerate as well - but it appears that you would have other options, if that were the case.

I really like the once a day dosing as I am horrible at remembering to take meds consistently if more than a couple of times a day (even w/ reminders).

Let us know how it goes.

-Phil
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline drewm

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,007
  • Mmmmmm Hmmmmmm!
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 10:48:03 PM »
Sweet dreams friend! I ♥ Atripla!  ;D
MAY 2010
VL>500,000 CD4>8

JUNE 2010 STARTED ATRIPLA

DEC 2010
VL>30 CD4>323

Atripla. Valtrex, Trilipix, Fluoxotine

Offline lostinthecorn

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Don't look at me that way, look at me THIS way!
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 11:35:16 PM »
Thanks all... down the hatch! :)
1/2014 - CD4 446 | HIV VL 157 (i was sick that week too!)
11/2013 - changed from Atripla to Complera (not from CD4 drop, because Sustiva makes me crazy!)
10/2013 - CD4 214 VL UD
9/2013 - CD4 276 VL UD
7/2013 - CD4 367 VL UD
4/8/13 - CD4 288/23% | HIV VL UD! | HBV VL 86
1/15/13 - CD4 239/21% | HIV VL 43 | HBV VL 2800
11/15/12 - VL 1,100 :)
10/27/12 - Switch to Atripla
10/15/12 - Changed from Bactrim to Dapsone
9/25/12 - Diag HBV+, CD4 49 CD4% 13.8  VL 1.2Mil
(started Norvir, Prezista, Truvada + Bactrim + Fluconazole)
9/21/12 - Diag HIV+

Offline wolfter

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,070
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2012, 12:01:22 AM »
Sending positive energy your way. 

Wolfie
Judging someone does not define them, it defines you. 

True peace is not merely the absence of war, it is the presence of justice.

Offline lostinthecorn

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Don't look at me that way, look at me THIS way!
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2012, 01:03:59 AM »
just realized i probably should have put this in the meds forum oops... anyway my dumb ass is just now going to bed, i forgot to put the sheets in the dryer.  I feel "off keel" but wouldn't really call it dizzy so far... so maybe this won't be a bad adjustment.

And thanks Wolfie :)

G'night all
1/2014 - CD4 446 | HIV VL 157 (i was sick that week too!)
11/2013 - changed from Atripla to Complera (not from CD4 drop, because Sustiva makes me crazy!)
10/2013 - CD4 214 VL UD
9/2013 - CD4 276 VL UD
7/2013 - CD4 367 VL UD
4/8/13 - CD4 288/23% | HIV VL UD! | HBV VL 86
1/15/13 - CD4 239/21% | HIV VL 43 | HBV VL 2800
11/15/12 - VL 1,100 :)
10/27/12 - Switch to Atripla
10/15/12 - Changed from Bactrim to Dapsone
9/25/12 - Diag HBV+, CD4 49 CD4% 13.8  VL 1.2Mil
(started Norvir, Prezista, Truvada + Bactrim + Fluconazole)
9/21/12 - Diag HIV+

Offline lostinthecorn

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Don't look at me that way, look at me THIS way!
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2012, 11:51:49 AM »
So.. wow!  The dreams weren't particularly any more vivid than usual but... man were they entertaining :)  I woke up several times thinking "man, that would make a funny tv show."

Not too groggy when I woke up but a bit "slow" - that's going away quickly though.

Crazy stuff.
1/2014 - CD4 446 | HIV VL 157 (i was sick that week too!)
11/2013 - changed from Atripla to Complera (not from CD4 drop, because Sustiva makes me crazy!)
10/2013 - CD4 214 VL UD
9/2013 - CD4 276 VL UD
7/2013 - CD4 367 VL UD
4/8/13 - CD4 288/23% | HIV VL UD! | HBV VL 86
1/15/13 - CD4 239/21% | HIV VL 43 | HBV VL 2800
11/15/12 - VL 1,100 :)
10/27/12 - Switch to Atripla
10/15/12 - Changed from Bactrim to Dapsone
9/25/12 - Diag HBV+, CD4 49 CD4% 13.8  VL 1.2Mil
(started Norvir, Prezista, Truvada + Bactrim + Fluconazole)
9/21/12 - Diag HIV+

Offline emeraldize

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,271
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2012, 01:08:00 PM »
Some people who aren't on meds keep a notebook by their bed to capture stuff that comes up in dreams. If you're able to mine the night's mindcoaster for a sitcom, why not jot it all down?

Offline MilburnCreek

  • Member
  • Posts: 67
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2012, 01:14:42 PM »
My first week on Atripla I was an emotional wreck....you may want to stay away from people you lov! LOL!

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,762
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2012, 02:19:08 PM »
Atripla can throw you for a loop.  (I know from experience.)  Feel yourself closely -- after a few weeks if you dont feel normal, report it to your doctor.

I am curious why you have no explanation for the switch.  Vagueness sucks. I would ask the doctor for an explanation and make an effort to understand it. 

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline elf

  • Member
  • Posts: 583
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 08:21:49 AM »
I might go back to Kaletra after a year on Sustiva.
I've had terrible neurological and psychiatric side effects.
I quit doing things I liked doing (learning German and Spanish, traveling, photography, reading)...It gave me all negative symptoms of schizophrenia.

Dreams are terrible, 3d post apocalyptic nightmares.
I haven't had a nice dream for a year.

During the day, it gives me a feeling of being drunk...
The closest to the normal would be ''the hangover'' feel between 12 pm and 6 pm.
(And I never drink).


Sustiva has been linked to neuronal damage:
http://www.poz.com/articles/hiv_efavirenz_neurocogntive_761_22999.shtml

This drug is wicked.


If it gives you a strong alcohol intoxication affect 1-3 hours after you take it, you should get a different drug... And ''take it before going to sleep'' is just a part of masking the problem...You think it's not changing the brain because you're asleep.
But this is ''ostrich in the sand'' justification...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 08:45:03 AM by elf »
Let's have a Kiki!

Offline scotty54

  • Member
  • Posts: 88
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 11:23:49 AM »
When I first began on Atripla (2006) I had increased hyperactivity issues.
With my doc's OK I decided to take it in the morning....was a good plan for me.
My labs were good and I tolerated well for about 5 years.  Recently switched to
Complera because of sleep difficulties/mental haze.  Best of luck with the change.





I may not agree with you, but will always defend your right to disagree.

Offline bufguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 160
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 12:53:55 PM »
Atripla has been great for me....In 4 years CD4 went from 511 to 1200, Vl 47,000 to undetectable...Cholesterol 164, tryglycerides 64.
First 10 days was tough, but after that no issues. I can even have a meal with it.
If you can tolerate it, it is the "gold standard" with a long half life. 1 pill, very few restrictions.

Best of Luck!
5/29/08 confirmed HIV+
6/23/08 Vl 47500  CD4 511/29% CD8 .60
start atripla
8/1/08 Vl 130  CD4 667/31% CD8 .70
9/18/08 Vl un  CD4 not tested
12/19/08 Vl un CD4 723/32% CD8 .80
4/3/09 Vl un CD4 615/36% CD8  .98
8/7/09 vl un CD4 689/35% CD8 .9
12/11/09 vl un CD4 712/38% CD8 .89
4/9/10 vl un CD4 796/39% CD8 1.0
8/20/10 vl un CD4 787/38% CD8 1.0
4/6/10 vl un CD4 865/35% CD8 .9
8/16/10 vl un CD4 924/37% CD8 1.0
12/23/10 vl un CD4 1006/35% CD8 .9
5/2/10 vl un CD4 1040/39% CD8 .9
8/7/13 vl un CD4 840/39% CD8 .9

Offline Lou-ah-vull

  • Member
  • Posts: 924
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 03:58:48 PM »
I have done extremely well on atripla...certainly the mental side effects are interesting.  Twice I forgot my dosage at bedtime and took it first thing in the morning.  Some on here have no problem with morning dosing, it does not work well for me.  I get lethargic during the day and almost always have a headache.  That said, I have virtually no problems at night.  Hope it works out well for you...this is a very well researched medicine.

Gary
Diagnosed Oct. 2005
10/05:  367 (26.2%), 24556 VL
01/06:  344 (24.6%), 86299 VL
04/06:  374 (22.0%), 87657 VL
05/06:  Began HAART 05/15/06, Combivir/Kaletra
07/06:  361 (27.8%), 1299 VL
10/06:  454 (32.4%), 55 VL
01/07:  499 (38.4%), UD
02/07:  Switched to Atripla 2/8/07
04/07:  566 (37.7%), UD
08/07:  761 (42.3%), UD
06/08:  659 (47.1%), UD
01/09:  613 (43.8%), UD
07/09:  616 (47.4%), UD
01/10:  530 (44.2%), UD
07/10:  636 (48.9%), UD
01/11:  627 (48.2%), UD
07/11:  840 (52.5%), UD
01/12:  920 (51.1%), UD
07/12:  857 (50.4%), 40
10/12:  UD
01/13:  710 (47.3%), UD
07/13:  886 (49.2%), UD
01/14:  985 (46.9%), UD

Offline Valmont

  • Member
  • Posts: 328
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 04:29:34 PM »
I take these molecules for 3 months (two generic pills, always from different labs, this month I have VIRADAY, it is the same...) and it has been great, no problem to sleep,no strange dreams, little stomac effects, I think it is great.

Yesterday I forgot it and took it early this morning, no problem for working...

I believe it is a good drug...
Apr 2011: Diagnotized
Jun 2011: CD4: 504  VL: 176.000
Dic 2011: CD4: 714  VL: 95.000
May 2012: CD4: 395 VL: 67.000
Jun 2012: CD4: 367
Agu 2012: Starting Emtricitabine 200 mg / Tenofovir 300 mg and Efavirenz 600 mg (2 pills) different brands or VIRADAY
Sep 2012: VL: 138
Dic 2012: CD4: 708 VL: <34  %CD4: 32%
Jan 2013: CD4: 707 VL: <20
May 2013: CD4: 945 VL: <34 %CD4: 33%
Agu 2013: CD4: 636 VL: <34 %CD4: 50% (is that possible?)

Offline lostinthecorn

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Don't look at me that way, look at me THIS way!
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 06:14:25 PM »
Sounds like people experience one extreme or another with atripla...!

Last night/today was already much better than the first night so i'm hoping I'll be on the "no problem" side, I know it'll take some time to see but definitely feeling optimistic so far.  Still felt a bit wonky today but I don't think I slept all that great last night... not going to jump to any conclusions about it though.  Thanks for the feedback everyone!
1/2014 - CD4 446 | HIV VL 157 (i was sick that week too!)
11/2013 - changed from Atripla to Complera (not from CD4 drop, because Sustiva makes me crazy!)
10/2013 - CD4 214 VL UD
9/2013 - CD4 276 VL UD
7/2013 - CD4 367 VL UD
4/8/13 - CD4 288/23% | HIV VL UD! | HBV VL 86
1/15/13 - CD4 239/21% | HIV VL 43 | HBV VL 2800
11/15/12 - VL 1,100 :)
10/27/12 - Switch to Atripla
10/15/12 - Changed from Bactrim to Dapsone
9/25/12 - Diag HBV+, CD4 49 CD4% 13.8  VL 1.2Mil
(started Norvir, Prezista, Truvada + Bactrim + Fluconazole)
9/21/12 - Diag HIV+

Offline jonesy

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2012, 04:54:06 PM »
Hey there,

i was worried as hell  when i first went on Atripla due to worries over dreams, grogginess and the likes.  I found the best way to deal with it all was to take it in my stride and do not read into side effects too much.  shy of a few vivid dreams, everything has been brilliant and my results are going the right way.

i found the best way to overcome the tiredness wast force myself to exercise a bit more to make sure i slept soundly.  for the first few weeks of being on the tablets, i went for a jog in the morning prior to work to clear any "fuzziness" that i experienced.

good luck, get through the first week or so and everything will be be peachy I'm sure.
18/04/2012 - CD4 - 330 / VL 48,000 Atripla started

Offline randym431

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,106
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2012, 09:17:27 AM »
I'll be going from epzicom/sustiva to atripla in a few days. Doc is worried about reports of heart issues long term with epzicom. Im thinking I will feel or see little or no change since it seems to be the sustiva that is the nasty part of the atripla scheme. And i've been on sustiva for 5 years now. Kinda bothers me the name atripla. atRIPla

Offline lostinthecorn

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Don't look at me that way, look at me THIS way!
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2012, 10:19:20 PM »
Well, it's been a week... side effects seem to have subsided after the first couple of days, though yeah I was still feeling a bit off/slow in the mornings... though Friday indicated otherwise.  Woke up to multiple work issues and I chewed through them without any problem. 

The only lingering thing seems to be that my back has been achy, which isn't typical for me.  I was worried that my kidneys might be struggling but after speaking with the doc they think it's just muscle pain.  I wonder if it's from thrashing around in my sleep (or trying to avoid laying on the...ahem..."rather rigid benefit of atripla we'll call it" :) ) - I wake up and the covers are all over the place!

Randy - seems like everything concerns a given doc a different way... Sustiva and potential neuronal damage... epzicom and heart issues... I guess being new to all of this I am just hopeful that something more safe/less harsh will come along in the relatively near future.  Betcha that once the patents expire and generics start coming available more broadly we see some new stuff from the drug companies... they won't want to lose out on their $2500/month they get for Atripla lol

1/2014 - CD4 446 | HIV VL 157 (i was sick that week too!)
11/2013 - changed from Atripla to Complera (not from CD4 drop, because Sustiva makes me crazy!)
10/2013 - CD4 214 VL UD
9/2013 - CD4 276 VL UD
7/2013 - CD4 367 VL UD
4/8/13 - CD4 288/23% | HIV VL UD! | HBV VL 86
1/15/13 - CD4 239/21% | HIV VL 43 | HBV VL 2800
11/15/12 - VL 1,100 :)
10/27/12 - Switch to Atripla
10/15/12 - Changed from Bactrim to Dapsone
9/25/12 - Diag HBV+, CD4 49 CD4% 13.8  VL 1.2Mil
(started Norvir, Prezista, Truvada + Bactrim + Fluconazole)
9/21/12 - Diag HIV+

Offline mitch777

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,064
  • wish i were here
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2012, 08:51:11 PM »
dear lostin',

keep that optimism goin!
and why not? :)

mark (aka mitch)
31 years hiv+ (oct. 2013) with a curtsy.

Offline MiniPozToyota

  • Member
  • Posts: 203
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 09:11:26 PM »
I love ATRIPLA take it every night around 10pm normally go to sleep around 11pm I have daily reminders on my Iphone (Istayhealthy) app. Been good to me so far no rash at the start and very minium dreams, only when I eat fatty food right before I take it ill dream of something crazy that lasts all night but its not bad. First couple of weeks I felt dizzy when I woke up but now its just like taking a headache pill... I take mine also with a mult Vit.
April 2010- tested neg.
Oct-Dec 2010- Came in contact time frame
March 29 2011- tested positive
April 1 2011 -  CD4 346 VL 46856 22% (Hometown hospital)
April 10 2011-  First Actual Appointment
April 11 2011-  CD4 576 VL 11898  44% (Out of state hospital)
May 09 2011- Genotype test no resistance
Jun  02 - CD4 363 VL 22,850  (Hometown hospital)
July 11 2011 - CD4 372 @25% 41,000 (Out of state hospital)
July 27 2011- Started Atripla
Sept 1 2011- CD4 485 VL 73
Oct 17 2011- CD4 389 VL UD @ 25%
Nov 21 2011- CD4 424 VL UD @ 31%
Mar 12 2012- CD4 504 VL UD @ 35%
May 14 2012- CD4 630 VL UD @ 43%
Aug 17 2012- CD4 689 VL UD @ 45%
Nov  6 2012 - CD4 659 VL UD @ 42%
Dec 17 2012 - CD4 859 VL UD @ 48% (out of state hospital)
Mar 18 2013 - CD$ 867 VL UD @ 44%

Offline Fisher

  • Member
  • Posts: 260
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2012, 08:34:57 PM »
Started Altripla a couple weeks ago.

One very vivid dream.  Difficulty falling asleep. Extreme farting :-)  Only side effects I've had.

-fisher
- fisher
04/08 CD 486 %23 VL <20
11/13 CD 351 %21  VL <20
10/13 CD 390 %16  VL <20
06/13 CD 315 %19  VL  22
02/13 CD 396 %14  VL <20
12/12 CD 392 %13  VL 320
11/12 CD 428 %13  VL 1200
*Started Meds: Atripla
10/12 CD 427 %11  VL 139000 -- 09/12 CD 408 %13 VL 92928
09/11 CD 745 %27 VL CLOT -- 10/10 CD 863 %29 VL 2782
10/09 CD 597 %30 VL 2537 -- 05/08 CD 809 %28 VL 1504
04/07 CD 797 %25 VL 3558 -- 11/06 CD 720 %28 VL 1214
06/05 CD 731 %25 VL 1575 -- 12/04 CD 1176 %30 VL 1329
01/04 CD 959 %26 VL 1011 -- 11/03 CD 1000 %28 VL 1581
12/02 CD 748 %28 -- 10/01 CD 860 %25
08/00 CD 1022 %28 -- 04/99 CD 854 %27
11/98 CD 899 %28 -- 02/97 CD 1400 %37
11/96 CD 1325  VL <500 -- 09/96 – Western Blot
05/83 – 04/98 - Monogamous Partner Being Negative
ARS - Los Angeles Dec '82

Offline elf

  • Member
  • Posts: 583
Re: Switching to Atripla tonight... wish me luck!
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 11:03:20 PM »
I can't sleep and I feel high

no wonder this drug tests positive for marijuana   :D
Let's have a Kiki!

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.