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Author Topic: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics  (Read 23548 times)

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Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #150 on: September 24, 2012, 04:59:26 PM »
Just to clarify, everyone who believes it is imperative to disclose ones status prior to unprotected anal sex, also believes the same in regard to oral sex?  The person sucking on your knob has the right to make that decision for themselves?


Yes, this is the point that I've been driving at.  Are people still as as adamant about disclosing when it comes to oral sex?
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline newt

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #151 on: September 24, 2012, 05:04:54 PM »
On content of consultation with my doc, for one I would expect him to respect me and treat me as a whole person, and particularly give concern to the risk to me of public sex environments, and try to understand their value to me as a starting point. I would trust him and be honest with him if he didn't get all huffy and was real about risk. Of course, this isn't really fair on said doc cos I undoubtedly would know more about HIV transmission than him, and he'd so be reported if he got de-person centred. But the approach should be the same for other people.

On the specific question of what is low and acceptable risk/protection, and therefore not of interest to his secondary concern about onward transmission, I would expect him if I was on meds with a suppressed viral load to equate sex  without condoms  as equally protective as sex with condoms and not being on meds. Which he does. Perhaps a caveat (though not believing it 100% himself) about other STIs. He is not remotely interested in oral. I am cautious about oral with a shot down the throat. He says I worry too much.

I would expect him to ask about poppers, as this may increase the risk. I would expect him to ask about frequency, specific risk situations and intention, plus other peoples actions.

I would also expect a referral to more intensive support if he saw a high risk and regular pattern, particularly I felt this was important, like there was mucho sex in backrooms I was not happy with for some reason. But if it was a one-off I would just expect him to ask me to get a full STD screen.

I would expect a discussion about partner numbers and partner reduction, in the context of HIV and other things.

I would also expect a lame-strong reinfection conversation which I would ignore.

If he didn't get a particular aspect of London gay life I would find a doc who does.

My doc always says "How's your sex life?" then "Do you think you have had any sex that may have passed on HIV?" he never asks "Have you had unprotected sex?" At some point condoms then usually come into the discussion, but he's interested in risk not technologies, up on the treatment is a good intervention to prevent HIV angle and considers things like numbers, frequency, my (good) sexual health record and the fact I am shagging a positive man.

Way back when, in the days I was in full 100% disclosure mode everywhere, I once told a guy who was about to fuck me without a condom in a horny bar that I was HIV positive. He said thank you very much, then 10 or so minutes later I watched him fuck someone else without a condom without so much as word being exchanged. This is when I decided to give up on the particular warmth and fraternity of the arches under the train station.

- matt
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 02:25:02 AM by newt »
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #152 on: September 24, 2012, 05:16:37 PM »
While the majority of the HIV community are trying to get rid of the Stigma and discrimination, it's selfish, idiots like Zohar who keep them alive and kicking.

Aroha
Jan :-*

I understand that this is an emotive subject but I still think we should be able to have a discussion without resorting to name calling and verbal abuse.  I never expect everyone to agree and endorse my view (on any subject), but I'm not going to attack others because they don't share my opinion.

''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline karry

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #153 on: September 24, 2012, 05:23:04 PM »
Dear moderators,
Please LOCK THIS THREAD.
Thanks
Take it a day at a time....and be positive about it too!

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #154 on: September 24, 2012, 05:26:37 PM »
Just to clarify, everyone who believes it is imperative to disclose ones status prior to unprotected anal sex, also believes the same in regard to oral sex?  The person sucking on your knob has the right to make that decision for themselves?


Yes, this is the point that I've been driving at.  Are people still as as adamant about disclosing when it comes to oral sex?

Yes. I think if you asked people on the street if they would want to know that someone had HIV before having sex with them the answer would be strongly yes. I think most people would also be upset if they were told after having sex with someone that their partner had HIV, knew it and didn't disclose.

Sorry, but I don't see any reason not to disclose that you have HIV before having sex with someone.

Offline newt

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #155 on: September 24, 2012, 05:29:29 PM »
I have never met anyone who was interested in "the discussion" before I went down on them or vice versa. Clearly other may have done more extensive field research. - matt
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #156 on: September 24, 2012, 05:41:30 PM »
I have never met anyone who was interested in "the discussion" before I went down on them or vice versa. - matt

I can also echo that experience.
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #157 on: September 24, 2012, 06:00:53 PM »

Yes, this is the point that I've been driving at.  Are people still as as adamant about disclosing when it comes to oral sex?

If you consider consider receiving fellatio to be even in the general ballpark of HIV risk as insertive anal sex, then that is indeed a whole other discussion.

Rather than discuss tangential and imaginary scenarios, isn't it much more exciting to discuss stuff you actually DO?

Seems like several people here REALLY want this thread to be about anything other than the Original Post, even the Original Poster.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Online mecch

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #158 on: September 24, 2012, 06:14:24 PM »
Well, aside from some people's resort to name calling (when their cognitive dissonance does not allow them to entertain two seemingly valid, yet seemingly contradictory, arguments in their head at the same time), I didn't find this thread a train wreck. 

Made me think about the issues in the abstract and also in my own behavior.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline LM

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #159 on: September 24, 2012, 06:25:30 PM »
Wow, I missed the whole discussion. Don't want to say much, but I actually agree  with mecch. I think some of the outrage kinda repeated the "angry mob"-like comments we see on news related to HIV, like "you're the monster they talked about!". I think it's very dangerous to go down that road. And while I agree that we should tell someone what see as wrong, I disagree with much of the moral judgments passed around and the attempt to remove by force those with different views.

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #160 on: September 24, 2012, 06:31:27 PM »
If you consider consider receiving fellatio to be even in the general ballpark of HIV risk as insertive anal sex, then that is indeed a whole other discussion.

Rather than discuss tangential and imaginary scenarios, isn't it much more exciting to discuss stuff you actually DO?

Seems like several people here REALLY want this thread to be about anything other than the Original Post, even the Original Poster.

Other people have driven the thread in a different direction than what I intended but that's often the nature of debate.

As for oral sex, tednlou2's point regarding are people always disclosing prior to oral sex in order to giving their partner a choice, rather than making that decision for them?

From what I've heard and read from other gay men who are negative, it's certainly not unusual for them to believe that people with HIV should always disclose their status, regardless of what type of sexual activity is going to take place. They want to be able to have the choice to NOT have any type of sex with someone who's positive. That isn't to say they will reject for that reason but they don't want someone else to make that decision on their behalf regardless of the actual risk.

But as we know, some people will always disclose, some will disclose some of the time, whilst others will never disclose.  And this is why it's really not a black and white issue.
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline LM

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2012, 06:36:03 PM »
Also, I don't think it's a valid point to disclose because the other person "would have preferred to know". Yeah, of course they would, so they could spout all their prejudice and run to the hills.

PS: Not saying I'm against disclosure, I just don't think that's a valid reason to.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #162 on: September 24, 2012, 06:48:20 PM »
If you have unprotected sex with strangers without disclosing your status would you then tell your sexual health doctor?


If I fell into this group ^

Yes. But in 5 years she has never asked. Would I volunteer the info? yes, if I were worried I might ahve caught something.

-W
I have never met anyone who was interested in "the discussion" before I went down on them or vice versa.  - matt

Me either.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 06:50:25 PM by WillyWump »
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Current Meds: Prezista/Epzicom/ Norvir
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #163 on: September 24, 2012, 06:50:28 PM »
This is the way I view it.

1. Oral sex has always been, and continues to be, considered a very low, if a theoretical risk, whilst penetrative sex has always been, and is still, considered a ‘real risk’ of contracting HIV, meds or no meds, and especially if not on meds.

Whilst it is true that you’d be hard-pressed to find an expert or doctor to agree with you that oral sex is an ‘impossible route of transmission’ all will say it is not an effective route. 

If oral sex presented a real and substantial risk of transmission there would be droves of women seroconverting through this route given that there are statistically significantly more women on this planet who perform fellatios than there are gay/bi men, as Ann rightfully pointed out on a previous oral sex transmission vector debate.  People who assert having been infected via oral sex are nearly always gay men.

It’s noteworthy, and there’s something really odd, when not a single woman in the history of the epidemic has asserted having sero-converted this way (amirite?). It is seriously strange, and as per my mind’s internal logic- very persuasive evidence of the remoteness of oral sex as a transmission vector.

2. Contrast this with penetrative anal sex/ vaginal sex: Nearly ALL of us got infected this way.

Enter ARVs. As per the Swiss study: “An HIV infected individual without an additional STD and on ART with completely suppressed viraemia is sexually non-infectious”.

However, there have been recorded cases of transmission with an UD VL, and IMO, this significantly downgrades this study’s validity. Well, I am no expert, but even one transmission is enough to cast severe doubt over the aforesaid blanket statement.

Also, after having read through Dr. Martin Fisher’s presentation (alluded to above): he concluded that though ART reducing VL to UD significantly reduces transmission, transmission whilst undetectable may occur (rarely)- which has been the position of  this forum since my joining.

Whilst I agree that condoms aren’t 100% effective, they mostly are. And again, as Ann said, if it rips, then there’s always the ‘grace period’ in which to notify the other party of PeP. How things actually pan out in this eventuality is another matter, but the fact this leeway exists with condoms means that it offers an added safety set.

Furthermore, it is crucial in this discussion to take note of the hidden demon in the room! : poz guys who are going around  barebacking in dark rooms and sex clubs are most likely carriers of other, more easily transmittable STIs and thus, the Swiss Study in inapplicable to them in the first place. As carriers of other STIs, as most of these guys most likely are, these guys ARE sexually infectious as regards HIV.

Whichever way one spins it, to my mind, barebacking, meds or no meds, anonymous sex-club setting or otherwise, is morally reprehensible when done without disclosure. Although I understand that one should be prepared for the consequences of entering a sex club and engaging in the acts therein, this can not wash over our personal  responsibilities of engaging in ‘safer sex’, of which a condom remains an essential seal (especially in an anonymous backroom type situation), one certainly more effective than meds.

As to whether I’d disclose this sort of behaviour to my doc? Yes, I would. I would also ask my doc for a referral to a shrink for my sake and that of others’ health. Serious.


I was about to spend about half an hour once AGAIN typing about a three thousand response to this, writing exactly the same stuff I have written, often in a reply to Newt, about this very topic. Which, by the way, has never not once led to any real discussion but rather a seeming dismissal of the serodiscordant studies as well as AIDSMEDS' own safer sex education in the AM I IMPLACABLE forum.

And then you go and scoop it our of my head.

God/dess bless you. Now I can finish making my very special oatmeal cookies.

*edited to add: and can we please say "receptive fellatio" instead of oral? I know it takes longer, but that's the only "oral sex" that we are talking about here, and it might be confusing to some who don't understand that.

BTW, I have had many frank sexual discussions with my doctor. Never once gotten a lecture though. Antibiotics at times. I suppose he just respects my intellect and understanding of the science, since we talk that as well. Then again I can list my adversarial relationships on one hand and still have fingers to diddle myself.

OK, finger. But I choose the finger.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 07:04:31 PM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #164 on: September 24, 2012, 06:54:51 PM »
Wow, I missed the whole discussion. Don't want to say much, but I actually agree  with mecch. I think some of the outrage kinda repeated the "angry mob"-like comments we see on news related to HIV, like "you're the monster they talked about!". I think it's very dangerous to go down that road. And while I agree that we should tell someone what see as wrong, I disagree with much of the moral judgments passed around and the attempt to remove by force those with different views.

I will attempt to remove, by any means necessary, a threat to myself or the people I care about. I will also admit to having a sense of attachment to this support forum, which has yet to be equaled on the interwebs. I consider Zohar's attitude in his multiple flame-baiting postings to be a threat, for exactly the reasons eloquently pointed out above that I shall not belabor to reprint.

I sincerely hope you care that much about something you deem important.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2012, 07:07:43 PM »
Also, I don't think it's a valid point to disclose because the other person "would have preferred to know". Yeah, of course they would, so they could spout all their prejudice and run to the hills.

PS: Not saying I'm against disclosure, I just don't think that's a valid reason to.

I don't think it's a valid reason either, but what this brings into focus is that morality functions in shades of grey and is subjective. A line that you won't cross, someone else may breach without a thought, and vice versa.
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline LM

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2012, 07:17:53 PM »
I will attempt to remove, by any means necessary, a threat to myself or the people I care about. I will also admit to having a sense of attachment to this support forum, which has yet to be equaled on the interwebs. I consider Zohar's attitude in his multiple flame-baiting postings to be a threat, for exactly the reasons eloquently pointed out above that I shall not belabor to reprint.

I sincerely hope you care that much about something you deem important.

Well, first of all, what I'll say is just my perception of it all, which may be right or wrong.

I think you do a wonderful job here at the forum, especially at the AMI section, so I can understand your attachment. But I myself don't see Zohar as a threat or something... I mean, we know this sort of thing happens, even though we might disagree with it. So I do think you, and a few others, might have gone overboard while dealing with it (not making whatever Zohar, Livewithit, etc, did or said any better or more acceptable).

I think it's healthy we discuss this with a cool head, because morality is, above all, a very personal thing. And the very fact that there is so much stigma related to HIV is not because of the misbehavior of a few people, but because some people like to impose their morality on others. So, in my case, while I can see having unprotected sex at a sex club without disclosing as not the ideal course of action, I do not see it as the act of a monster or whatever.

So I get the feeling that some people get influenced by hatemongers and end up reproducing their beliefs in some ways even unwillingly.

Offline Raf

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2012, 07:29:10 PM »
So, in my case, while I can see having unprotected sex at a sex club without disclosing as not the ideal course of action, I do not see it as the act of a monster or whatever.

So, you don't see wrong to infect someone with a virus that you already know you have.
Dx: 05/14/2008
Latest HIV Meds combo I've been taking:

Kaletra + Combivir (since 05/16/2008 - today)

Offline LM

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #168 on: September 24, 2012, 07:49:32 PM »
So, you don't see wrong to infect someone with a virus that you already know you have.

Don't be dishonest and twist my words. Doing something wrong doesn't make someone a monster. That's a very black and white, "Good vs Evil" kind of mentality that is despicable and imposed by the worst kind of people.

Offline Raf

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #169 on: September 24, 2012, 08:09:54 PM »
Don't be dishonest and twist my words. Doing something wrong doesn't make someone a monster. That's a very black and white, "Good vs Evil" kind of mentality that is despicable and imposed by the worst kind of people.

The worst kind of people is whoever infects with this virus knowingly, and do nothing about it.
Dx: 05/14/2008
Latest HIV Meds combo I've been taking:

Kaletra + Combivir (since 05/16/2008 - today)

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #170 on: September 24, 2012, 08:34:58 PM »
The worst kind of people is whoever infects with this virus knowingly, and do nothing about it.

So what are your thoughts on people who engage in oral sex without disclosing their status?
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline LM

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #171 on: September 24, 2012, 08:38:58 PM »
The worst kind of people is whoever infects with this virus knowingly, and do nothing about it.

See how morality is a very personal thing? Zohar might be the worst kind of person in your book, and you might be the worst kind of person in mine.

That aside, I think it's a very, very long stretch to say someone UD having unprotected sex with someone of unknown status at the sex club is "infecting him knowingly". And the reason why has been dissected all over this topic.

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #172 on: September 24, 2012, 08:55:59 PM »

That aside, I think it's a very, very long stretch to say someone UD having unprotected sex with someone of unknown status at the sex club is "infecting him knowingly". And the reason why has been dissected all over this topic.

Actually, I was infected by someone whose VL was (and still is) UD.... so, for those who say it is rare that it occurs..... tell that to the person who is infected and was with someone who had an undetectable VL...

Also, we have been discussing the other person (the negative) and our responsibility to disclose and not infect.... so, I guess the question I would ask.... even knowing that we all share in a responsibility for our own infections (for the most part).....  How might your life be different had the person you were infected by disclosed to you prior to having sex? Would you have still had unprotected sex with the person? Would you have still had any type of sex with him/her? Would you have been angry if they disclosed prior to having unprotected sex with you? Do you feel that even though we take responsibility for our infections, he/she still had a responsibility to disclose their status to you (whether it was a long term relationship or anonymous sex in the backroom of a sex club)?

Since the scope of discussion seems to have been redirected and expanded - it would be interesting to get an honest response regarding thoughts of those who see no need to disclose prior to barebacking - how they would feel if the symbolic shoe was on the other foot.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline LM

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #173 on: September 24, 2012, 09:27:12 PM »
Actually, I was infected by someone whose VL was (and still is) UD.... so, for those who say it is rare that it occurs..... tell that to the person who is infected and was with someone who had an undetectable VL...

Also, we have been discussing the other person (the negative) and our responsibility to disclose and not infect.... so, I guess the question I would ask.... even knowing that we all share in a responsibility for our own infections (for the most part).....  How might your life be different had the person you were infected by disclosed to you prior to having sex? Would you have still had unprotected sex with the person? Would you have still had any type of sex with him/her? Would you have been angry if they disclosed prior to having unprotected sex with you? Do you feel that even though we take responsibility for our infections, he/she still had a responsibility to disclose their status to you (whether it was a long term relationship or anonymous sex in the backroom of a sex club)?

Since the scope of discussion seems to have been redirected and expanded - it would be interesting to get an honest response regarding thoughts of those who see no need to disclose prior to barebacking - how they would feel if the symbolic shoe was on the other foot.

Well, never said it was impossible to get infected while UD. Although I'm uncertain of the variables needed for it to take place.

Now, I don't think that there is no need to disclose prior to barebacking. But I see very different situations if you are at a sex club or with someone you met at a bar.

Nevertheless, answering your questions, the person who infected me didn't know about his infection. If he did, and didn't tell me, I would still blame myself. However, I did ask him and if he told me he was neg (but knew he was poz), I would perhaps be a bit angry, but still blame myself in the end because you can't trust people with that. In fact, he did tell me he was neg, but he didn't really know. I don't blame him for that.

Now, if he told me beforehand, I wouldn't bareback for sure; as for sex, I don't know, it could just break the mood. I would rather he didn't tell me and just used a condom instead, saying something like: "I think I'm neg, but since you're worried about it, it would be better to use a condom".

The only situation I would be really mad is in a long term relationship. Like, if he/she knew he was poz and let bareback sex happen anyway after some time. Otherwise, I take full responsibility for my own infection.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #174 on: September 24, 2012, 09:29:05 PM »
So what are your thoughts on people who engage in oral sex without disclosing their status?

You say "oral sex."

Do you mean receptive cunnilingus? Because I don't know what's in your head.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #175 on: September 24, 2012, 09:32:55 PM »
Actually, I was infected by someone whose VL was (and still is) UD.... so, for those who say it is rare that it occurs..... tell that to the person who is infected and was with someone who had an undetectable VL...

Also, we have been discussing the other person (the negative) and our responsibility to disclose and not infect.... so, I guess the question I would ask.... even knowing that we all share in a responsibility for our own infections (for the most part).....  How might your life be different had the person you were infected by disclosed to you prior to having sex? Would you have still had unprotected sex with the person? Would you have still had any type of sex with him/her? Would you have been angry if they disclosed prior to having unprotected sex with you? Do you feel that even though we take responsibility for our infections, he/she still had a responsibility to disclose their status to you (whether it was a long term relationship or anonymous sex in the backroom of a sex club)?

Since the scope of discussion seems to have been redirected and expanded - it would be interesting to get an honest response regarding thoughts of those who see no need to disclose prior to barebacking - how they would feel if the symbolic shoe was on the other foot.

I was always aware of the risks, and don't hold the person who infected me responsible.
The reality is, there's no such thing as risk-free sex and never has been. You're rolling the dice with every encounter you have.
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline anniebc

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #176 on: September 24, 2012, 09:41:21 PM »
I understand that this is an emotive subject but I still think we should be able to have a discussion without resorting to name calling and verbal abuse.  I never expect everyone to agree and endorse my view (on any subject), but I'm not going to attack others because they don't share my opinion.

Then try and understand that for the last 10 years I have spent many, many years/months/weeks/days/hours through out New Zealand and abroad educating those who have no idea what it's like to be stigmatized or discriminated against because we are living with HIV, and who keep blaming us for spreading this virus, I do this by telling them that the HIV community in NZ stand up and take responsibility for their actions and their own health, as well as the health of others, by only engaging in safe sex, and make sure the virus stops with them

I think for the most part by putting my face and voice out there I have managed to turn things around here in NZ, I take pride in knowing that I have made a difference on how my community now reacts to this virus, both here and around the world, that I have managed to educate them and they now understand and show compassion for those of us who are living with HIV.....then I come across this thread...how the hell do you expect me to react believe me if I didn't care so much about this forum my language and name calling would have been a friggin sight worse, I have never been so angry at anyone in this forum than I am with you right now.

Jan
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Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #177 on: September 24, 2012, 09:41:55 PM »
I was always aware of the risks, and don't hold the person who infected me responsible.
The reality is, there's no such thing as risk-free sex and never has been. You're rolling the dice with every encounter you have.

Especially when there are people out there who will fuck you raw when they know they're poz and won't even tell you they are; which was what I thought the original topic of this thread was about.
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
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____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. 
Last regimen:  Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #178 on: September 24, 2012, 09:46:21 PM »
Especially when there are people out there who will fuck you raw when they know they're poz and won't even tell you they are; which was what I thought the original topic of this thread was about.

It was, until some posters decided that the original intent of this thread was not evolving to their tastes.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #179 on: September 24, 2012, 09:47:55 PM »
I don't hold the person I was infected from responsible at all -
as I was told he was positive, was in a serodiscordant relationship - in which we both only half-hazardly used protection....

So, I am responsible for my infection -

My point was that anyone who puts less emphasis on the need for disclosure when barebacking because of being UD is not taking into account that people who are UD can still infect others...

The bigger point I am trying to make is that just because there are people on here who may have been infected by someone who didn't disclose - that still doesn't give them license or moral right to not disclose when they know they are positive and are getting ready to have unprotected sex...

As has been said at nauseum here.... the power to stop HIV infections rest in large part with those of us who are positive - there is a moral sense of obligation to know this, understand what it means, and to practice it in our actions. Or are you really okay with saying "oh well, it was their fault, they wanted me to have unprotected sex with them or they didn't ask me my status so I didn't tell... " or are you really that insecure in yourself that you feel that you are such damaged goods that no one would want you if you told prior to having sex (or is it really just about being able to bust that nut in an anonymous ass that is so important that the other person's life really just doesn't matter - cause if that is the case, that is really revealing about the overall character of a person - no matter how you cut it).
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Raf

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #180 on: September 24, 2012, 09:52:52 PM »
Now I understand why the LTS say that is alarming how many people don't know the horrors of the 80s, and think that being UD gives free pass to have all the unprotected sex they want.

I don't hold the person I was infected from responsible at all -
as I was told he was positive, was in a serodiscordant relationship - in which we both only half-hazardly used protection....

So, I am responsible for my infection -

My point was that anyone who puts less emphasis on the need for disclosure when barebacking because of being UD is not taking into account that people who are UD can still infect others...

The bigger point I am trying to make is that just because there are people on here who may have been infected by someone who didn't disclose - that still doesn't give them license or moral right to not disclose when they know they are positive and are getting ready to have unprotected sex...

As has been said at nauseum here.... the power to stop HIV infections rest in large part with those of us who are positive - there is a moral sense of obligation to know this, understand what it means, and to practice it in our actions. Or are you really okay with saying "oh well, it was their fault, they wanted me to have unprotected sex with them or they didn't ask me my status so I didn't tell... " or are you really that insecure in yourself that you feel that you are such damaged goods that no one would want you if you told prior to having sex (or is it really just about being able to bust that nut in an anonymous ass that is so important that the other person's life really just doesn't matter - cause if that is the case, that is really revealing about the overall character of a person - no matter how you cut it).

well said phil.
Dx: 05/14/2008
Latest HIV Meds combo I've been taking:

Kaletra + Combivir (since 05/16/2008 - today)

Offline Joe K

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #181 on: September 24, 2012, 09:58:48 PM »
Now I understand why the LTS say that is alarming how many people don't know the horrors of the 80s, and think that being UD gives free pass to have all the unprotected sex they want.

After watching scores of my friends, die from AIDS, I could never, ever, knowingly infect another human being with HIV.  Does this make me something special?  I don't know.  What I do know, is I have to live with myself and that means never being the cause of another human dying from AIDS.

Joe
Life is what happens, when you are busy making other plans.

Though you may be only one person in the entire world, to one person, you may be the entire world.

I wish to become half the man, that my dog thinks I am.

Remember me with simple acts of kindness and I will live forever.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #182 on: September 24, 2012, 10:20:04 PM »
Then try and understand that for the last 10 years I have spent many, many years/months/weeks/days/hours through out New Zealand and abroad educating those who have no idea what it's like to be stigmatized or discriminated against because we are living with HIV, and who keep blaming us for spreading this virus, I do this by telling them that the HIV community in NZ stand up and take responsibility for their actions and their own health, as well as the health of others, by only engaging in safe sex, and make sure the virus stops with them

I think for the most part by putting my face and voice out there I have managed to turn things around here in NZ, I take pride in knowing that I have made a difference on how my community now reacts to this virus, both here and around the world, that I have managed to educate them and they now understand and show compassion for those of us who are living with HIV.....then I come across this thread...how the hell do you expect me to react believe me if I didn't care so much about this forum my language and name calling would have been a friggin sight worse, I have never been so angry at anyone in this forum than I am with you right now.

Jan

Thank you Jan!
All the statistics and scenarios that have been raised here, may be true -- or may be rationalizations, I'm not sure.  What I do know is that stigma is real.  Fucking someone raw, without disclosing is only going to make it worse -- whether transmission can or does occur.  That is the simple fact -- that is the reality in which we all live.  Right, wrong or indifferent. 

We have a tough road ahead of us to help end that stigma.  We can recite all the stats and studies in the world and it won't make one iota of difference to the public at large if we are seen as being liars (even lies of omission) who are more concerned with getting our rocks off than in trying to stop this disease.

I am still mystified by all the mental gymnastics going on by some folks to justify behavior that, even if it doesn't result in an infection, results in keeping ALL OF US locked up in this god-awful stigma.  There is nothing wrong with having and enjoying sex -- all the sex you want -- anywhere you want -- JUST BE RESPONSIBLE!  And if you partner/trick/fuck buddy can't be responsible for their own well-being, than you can help by owning up to your own responsiblity and not saying -- "oh well -- he should know better" or "oh well - if he is willing to bareback, he's probably already, or soon will be poz anyway".  It's not morality (which I equate with religion), it's basic human decency.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #183 on: September 25, 2012, 03:54:51 AM »
See how morality is a very personal thing? Zohar might be the worst kind of person in your book, and you might be the worst kind of person in mine.

That aside, I think it's a very, very long stretch to say someone UD having unprotected sex with someone of unknown status at the sex club is "infecting him knowingly". And the reason why has been dissected all over this topic.

I don't think it's a valid reason either, but what this brings into focus is that morality functions in shades of grey and is subjective. A line that you won't cross, someone else may breach without a thought, and vice versa.

Ah Bless!!

I just woke up to find out this thread has morphed into a thread on ‘moral relativism’. Well done.

This discussion is not about personal morals, or about what works for others need not apply to you.

This is not a variant of the French Burkha-Ban Debate Part 2!

This is about what is RIGHT or WRONG in Absolute Terms, on a balance of probabilities, taking into account longstanding scientific evidence and data, as well as the vital and inextricably linked issues of ‘stigma & criminalization’ that HIV+ people are confronted with. These matters are wedded to our collective notions of personal responsibility and the public perception thereof. Whether or not you like it. Whether or not you see it.

If moral relativism is the line you’re pushing forward (Zohar, LM), then you ought to know that human beings are, and have been, capable of justifying virtually ANYTHING to be right, from murder to slavery.

Even if the science has evolved to a point where UD VL = to condom use (although I remain unconvinced for reasons mentioned in my previous post), public attitudes, medical/public health worker attitudes (INCLUDING the stance of this forum) and importantly, the laws HAVE NOT. And for good reason, to my mind.

And this is the crux of it.

If something untoward were to happen in one of these sexual encounters, you could shout and scream, run around flapping your arms all you want about scientific data, but the courts and the public are not going to buy it. You’re going to be burnt at the stake regardless (or the criminal court). If anything were to go wrong, you’d be branded a miscreant of the worst kind, and in that you’d drag the rest of us down with you.

The personal act of barebacking without disclosure ceases to be a personal one when it affects us all, as it plainly does- for reasons Bocker, Jan, Phil, JK and others have already stated. It is not only about you being at ease with your darkroom dalliances, it is that you couldn’t care less about the repercussions that could ensue (and I can imagine several even in the absence of transmission) and the potential of these consequences branding us all.

In 2012, the condom remains the hallmark of ‘safer sex’. This is not an opinion. Whether or not you agree is beside the point.   Whether or not this message should change is also irrelevant today. The ground reality dictates that you wrap up.

Is putting a condom really so much of a problem?
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #184 on: September 25, 2012, 04:23:46 AM »
Then try and understand that for the last 10 years I have spent many, many years/months/weeks/days/hours through out New Zealand and abroad educating those who have no idea what it's like to be stigmatized or discriminated against because we are living with HIV, and who keep blaming us for spreading this virus, I do this by telling them that the HIV community in NZ stand up and take responsibility for their actions and their own health, as well as the health of others, by only engaging in safe sex, and make sure the virus stops with them

I think for the most part by putting my face and voice out there I have managed to turn things around here in NZ, I take pride in knowing that I have made a difference on how my community now reacts to this virus, both here and around the world, that I have managed to educate them and they now understand and show compassion for those of us who are living with HIV.....then I come across this thread...how the hell do you expect me to react believe me if I didn't care so much about this forum my language and name calling would have been a friggin sight worse, I have never been so angry at anyone in this forum than I am with you right now.

Jan

And I would hope that no matter how much stigma you've challenged, or how angry you've been when educating people, you haven't resorted to name calling.

''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline komnaes

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #185 on: September 25, 2012, 05:18:38 AM »
And I would hope that no matter how much stigma you've challenged, or how angry you've been when educating people, you haven't resorted to name calling.

All of us would be able to tell you that it really takes a lot of rankling to upset our Jan, who's a known advocate of patient rights and have been educating the public and humanizing the disease for years in NZ. So I suggest you to stop there and at least show enough decency to respect someone whose hard works you're trying to trivialize.

And for what? We've gone through these "morality" questions of whether to tell or how much to tell hundreds of times here. So I think Newt was right - let's go back to your OP, which as far as I can tell is that you were simply irritated because your doc was just trying to tell you there was a line which couldn't be crossed.

You haven't given us enough details on the discussions, but having to deal with those doctors and nurses for years, they almost ALWAYS set the caution bar high. One of the most caring and effective nurses in my clinic still tell me that there's a chance to transmit HIV through oral sex - I disagree, but at least I know she means well, and this is what you can expect the healthcare folks to say, because, HIV or not, they don't want to see us coming back to them with another STD.

Were you expecting your doc to just say, right on, go ahead, fuck as many raw holes as possible? And why does that bother you at all, if you were so committed to this notion that UD is as safe as condom and even if it isn't it's none of your responsible. Is it because there's some lingering doubt that out of dozens of those holes you've fucked (that night?), there might have been one that you've infected?

I don't know. But seriously, the way I read your OP and subsequent posts, it's really just about you don't want to be told you've done something wrong, even outrageous, to some people. And if you really believe in all those things you've said, your reactions here so far tell me otherwise.
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline bocker3

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #186 on: September 25, 2012, 07:41:08 AM »
And I would hope that no matter how much stigma you've challenged, or how angry you've been when educating people, you haven't resorted to name calling.

Please do AVOID the subject of stigma and your actions to maintain it. 

In this thread we've had a number of "misdirects" by you and your supporters:

1. The neg guy "knew" the risks
2. It's a sex club
3. Not everyone knows they are poz, so it's ONLY the neg person's responsibility
4. It's just a difference of opinion
5. Transmission is unlikely
6. People don't always disclose for oral sex (insertive fellatio -- for JK  ;) )
7. What if........  pick your scenario
8. Bad analogies (specifics too different, perhaps, but overall they were pretty apt, for the astute)
9. Your mean
10. Your calling me names

Why not simply address what you are avoiding.  STIGMA and Public Health

Finally -- I'll answer your OP (although, I suppose I should throw that in the misdirect list, as many thread evolve).
Your doctor was RIGHT to lecture you about your responsibility to not spread this virus.  Perhaps, he could have used a better tone -- if I am to believe your take on his reaction.  I am not, given your attitude, convinced that he was "harsh".  Some part of you must believe you did the wrong thing (else, why post this thread), but the frontal lobes seem to be rebelling from this possibility -- hence the misdirects.  So, it's very possible that you are simply overstating his reaction.  (there -- now you can avoid everything I wrote, except the part about how your doc reacted)

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #187 on: September 25, 2012, 08:01:22 AM »
All of us would be able to tell you that it really takes a lot of rankling to upset our Jan, who's a known advocate of patient rights and have been educating the public and humanizing the disease for years in NZ. So I suggest you to stop there and at least show enough decency to respect someone whose hard works you're trying to trivialize.

And for what? We've gone through these "morality" questions of whether to tell or how much to tell hundreds of times here. So I think Newt was right - let's go back to your OP, which as far as I can tell is that you were simply irritated because your doc was just trying to tell you there was a line which couldn't be crossed.

You haven't given us enough details on the discussions, but having to deal with those doctors and nurses for years, they almost ALWAYS set the caution bar high. One of the most caring and effective nurses in my clinic still tell me that there's a chance to transmit HIV through oral sex - I disagree, but at least I know she means well, and this is what you can expect the healthcare folks to say, because, HIV or not, they don't want to see us coming back to them with another STD.

Were you expecting your doc to just say, right on, go ahead, fuck as many raw holes as possible? And why does that bother you at all, if you were so committed to this notion that UD is as safe as condom and even if it isn't it's none of your responsible. Is it because there's some lingering doubt that out of dozens of those holes you've fucked (that night?), there might have been one that you've infected?

I don't know. But seriously, the way I read your OP and subsequent posts, it's really just about you don't want to be told you've done something wrong, even outrageous, to some people. And if you really believe in all those things you've said, your reactions here so far tell me otherwise.


The way things read and they way they actually are, can be two different things. I simply wanted to know how people respond to questions about sex from their doctors. That's it.  But hey, here we are.

So much of what has been written here is people making judgements and  assumptions and attempting to demonise me and turn me into an 'HIV monster'. This seems to happen a fair bit amongst people who are HIV positive.  It's as if they feel they can atone for their own past 'sins' and their own 'bad' behaviour which led to them becoming infected, by attacking those whose actions they don't agree with.

And yet, it is all relative.

As we've seen during this discussion, people are taking issue with the studies that show that oral sex isn't 100% risk free, and thus feel comfortable with the decision not to disclose.  But, trust me, on general gay forums, anyone with HIV who makes that assertion will be shouted down in just as shrill a manner as I have been here. Indeed, to many negative people, non-disclosure equals 'sociopath', even when protection is used ('OMFG!!!! WHAT IF THE CONDOM HAD BROKEN??!!!!!')

So, yeah. My morality is better than yours. Well, maybe not. Perhaps the only way of circumventing this issue is for everyone who's diagnosed with HIV to automatically have their forehead etched with a biohazard tattoo. I'm being facetious, of course, but you get the idea.
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #188 on: September 25, 2012, 08:07:55 AM »
  I am not, given your attitude, convinced that he was "harsh". Some part of you must believe you did the wrong thing (else, why post this thread), but the frontal lobes seem to be rebelling from this possibility -- hence the misdirects.  So, it's very possible that you are simply overstating his reaction.  (there -- now you can avoid everything I wrote, except the part about how your doc reacted)

Mike

''Harsh''? Can you direct me to that post so I can see the context, as I don't actually recall saying that?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 08:13:12 AM by Zohar »
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #189 on: September 25, 2012, 08:20:29 AM »

    Simple question Zohar, do you think it's ok for positive people to infect others with HIV?  If your answer is yes, then I suppose there really is nothing to discuss here.  If no, what makes you the exception?

   
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #190 on: September 25, 2012, 08:24:21 AM »

I simply wanted to know how people respond to questions about sex from their doctors. That's it. 


I tell my doctor the absolute truth. He knows that my poz bf and I (he treats both of us) don't use condoms with each other and he's fine with that. He knows that on the rare occasions we have sex outside our relationship, we both disclose and use condoms regardless of our VL. He's fine with that as well.

We both get yearly STI screening. So far, those screenings have not revealed any new STIs and I don't expect them to, because we use condoms outside our relationship. And disclose. Did I mention that? We both ALWAYS disclose.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the more we hide, the more we HAVE to hide and I've been reminded of that phrase many times during this thread. Hiding our hiv status - particularly while engaging activities that have the possibility of transmitting the virus to someone else - adds to the stigma we face.

The hiv negative people in the world have the responsibility to protect themselves. The hiv positive people in the world have the responsibility to not spread their virus. It's a shared responsibility, but just because one person shirks that responsibility doesn't mean it's right for me to shirk mine. Can't get much more simple than that and as Mike said, it's not a matter of morality, it's a matter of simple human decency.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #191 on: September 25, 2012, 09:32:01 AM »
    Simple question Zohar, do you think it's ok for positive people to infect others with HIV?  If your answer is yes, then I suppose there really is nothing to discuss here.  If no, what makes you the exception?

That's not quite the 'simple question' it first appears to be.

If the accused had simply not mentioned they are HIV positive, then the prosecution would probably argue that they had been reckless by not disclosing their status and not informing their partner of the risks involved in intercourse. However, the defence could well counter this by saying that the balance of responsibility is 50:50, and that by agreeing to having unprotected sex, the ‘victim’ effectively consented to all the risks involved, including that of HIV.

The argument that non-disclosure equals guilt could potentially even be applied if the person on trial had used a condom. Some say that sex with a condom, but without disclosure of status should also count as reckless transmission. This is because condoms are not always 100% effective. If a condom fails, and an individual becomes infected with HIV, there is potential for that person to accuse their partner of being 'reckless' for having withheld information that may have influenced their decision to have sex.


The quotes above are germane to the discussion, and are taken from a fuller discussion around transmission here:

http://www.avert.org/criminal-transmission.htm
''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #192 on: September 25, 2012, 10:00:18 AM »

That's not quite the 'simple question' it first appears to be.


And you didn't even come close to answering his question. You started talking about disclosure when his question had nothing to do with disclosure. He asked you a simple - yes, simple - yes or no question:

"do you think it's ok for positive people to infect others with HIV?"

Yes or no?

Answers on a postcard, please.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #193 on: September 25, 2012, 10:05:55 AM »
And you didn't even come close to answering his question. You started talking about disclosure when his question had nothing to do with disclosure. He asked you a simple - yes, simple - yes or no question:

"do you think it's ok for positive people to infect others with HIV?"

Yes or no?

Answers on a postcard, please.

Ann, may I please ask you why is this thread allowed to go on ad nauseum when we've had nothing but creative culpability contortions, and dredging up of all sorts of statistical straw men by the OP.

The OP already made his stand unequivocally clear when he said this:

I don't think I have made a mistake and, thus, would do the same thing again.

Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #194 on: September 25, 2012, 10:17:45 AM »
And the OP still did not answer skeebo's question - which was directed for the OP to answer specifically as it pertains to him.... not to some third-party, not to some court case argument... but to HIM.

What is so difficult about responding?

Oh that's right.... you previously did..... by basically saying - to paraphrase "you don't give a fuck about infected others with HIV."

Hmmm.... and people wonder why there is stigma, prejudice, and discrimination....
People wonder why there is a fear of disclosure; people wonder why there is criminalization; people wonder why there are some who say, "just let those with HIV/AIDS die"

September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #195 on: September 25, 2012, 10:20:01 AM »

Ann, may I please ask you why is this thread allowed to go on ad nauseum


We've let this discussion go on because it's a discussion that needs to be had.

The fact that some people are taking the Swiss Statement as license to bareback without disclosure needs to be addressed.

It might not be a discussion we like having, but how are we ever going to reach people and get them to think about their behaviour - and its implications - unless we talk about it?
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #196 on: September 25, 2012, 01:14:03 PM »
And I would hope that no matter how much stigma you've challenged, or how angry you've been when educating people, you haven't resorted to name calling.



Yes, because name calling is absolutely the worst thing that's going on in this thread. The name calling. Yup.

I submit that if you had a thin skin, you would not spend so much time flame-baiting these forums.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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Offline LiveWithIt

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #197 on: September 25, 2012, 01:19:09 PM »
I could never, ever, knowingly infect another human being with HIV.  Does this make me something special?  I don't know. 

You are a dove, a saint, if you will. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 01:23:45 PM by LiveWithIt »
Pray God you can cope
I know you have a little life in you yet.
I know you have a lot of strength left.

Offline Zohar

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #198 on: September 25, 2012, 01:22:26 PM »
Yes, because name calling is absolutely the worst thing that's going on in this thread. The name calling. Yup.

Aren't name calling and making personal attacks against the forum's rules? That was my understanding anyway. I've already made it clear that I don't expect people to agree with me, but I see no reason why we can't remain civil, even in moments of frustration which, believe it or not, do cut both ways.

''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Unprotected sex, disclosure and sexual health clinics
« Reply #199 on: September 25, 2012, 01:56:57 PM »
Aren't name calling and making personal attacks against the forum's rules? That was my understanding anyway. I've already made it clear that I don't expect people to agree with me, but I see no reason why we can't remain civil, even in moments of frustration which, believe it or not, do cut both ways.



Believe it or not, there is even a time and place for uncivil behavior.

Even name calling and obscenity. I do neither of those things haphazardly. Neither do any of the people who seem to have made some members butthurt.

Perhaps if they rose from their aforementioned hurt butts and actively strove to better their world, they would have an understanding of the frustration that arises when people display overt sociopathy and callous disregard for their fellow persons, their communities, and in some cases, the very forum that gives them the freedom to jeopardize it.

But alas, some are content to pock people with a stick, then act outraged when they are instructed, often loudly, to shove said stick.

Because it's always been REALLY about the reactions, right?

Your misdirections in this forum - and the misdirections of others - and abject refusal to even answer the simplest direct question - point not to naivete, ignorance of affect or even apathy. They point to deliberation. The name calling? Compared to other threads, it's been totally PG.

I won't dare speak for any others, but having been warned, I will say two things more about that:

A) I shall endeavor to tie whatever linguistic knots I need to tie in order to avoid further reprimand.

B) I stand wholly by each and every word I have written, even in frustration. My disdain for your greasy attempt to paint yourself as a victim of bullying is causing my Norvir to stick in my throat.

Odd that someone with such callous disregard for strangers in whom he is putting his spunk seems so very delicate when stirring up flames on an anonymous internet message board. You'd think it would be the other way around.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

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