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Author Topic: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?  (Read 8059 times)

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Offline tednlou2

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Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« on: September 13, 2012, 03:29:13 AM »
I say no.  Gender reassignment is not the same as a heart bypass, in my opinion for someone who committed murder.  Many wouldn't even want tax money paying for a heart bypass. 

 http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2012/09/12/ruling-trans-inmates-surgery-gets-bipartisan-rebuke

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 10:49:12 AM »
Let's see -- taxpayers have already spent $52,000 on medical experts for this case (which is about the cost of the surgery), PLUS the cost of litigation. Now, just from a balance sheet perspective which would cost less? Also, a study in California showed that the cost of providing mental health services to someone who didn't have gender reassignment was prohibitive.

Aside from that, remove the "murderer" aspect of the situation, the question is whether or not in normal circumstances one believes that gender reassignment is cosmetic or not -- is that what you're arguing? Or additionally are you arguing that prisoners are not due medical care? (which means 3 decades of a Supreme Court ruling you would find bogus) What are the implications of that one in terms of... oh, say being HIV+ and being in the prison system?

Basically in this case you're left with knee-jerk emotional responses by people: "prisoner = icky" and "transgender = icky" which really isn't very different from people who think cocksuckers with AIDS are icky, amirite?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Online Jeff G

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 12:02:29 PM »
I'm absolutely for it . Gender reassignment surgery can be a life saving surgery for some people . I also think that the gay and lesbian community needs to step it up when it comes to supporting the Trans community . 

Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 06:37:44 PM »
To use an overused phrase -- you are heading down an awfully slippery slope there Ted.
Miss P.  makes an excellent point when substituting this situation with HIV treatment.  Many people would feel, "why should I pay for that -- it's their own damned fault". 
Sex reassignment surgery is not an elective treatment, from a mental health POV.  If someone's doctors think this is the proper treatment for someone -- then we have to cover it.  They are in prison, so they can't get employer based coverage, can they??

M
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 07:34:25 PM »
Then Medicaid and Medicare should pay for it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2012, 09:40:05 AM »
This situation is another example of the inequity of US healthcare. Many Americans do not believe everyone deserves healthcare, so it is really galling when a murderer gets free expensive medical treatment but people who are law abiding, working citizens cannot afford medical care. My solution is that the government should assure all it's citizens have proper healthcare therefore avoiding these moral conundrums of who deserves to suffer and who deserves to be well. Ironically the Americans who seem most opposed to this idea identify as Christian.

Offline buginme2

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2012, 10:26:40 AM »
This situation is another example of the inequity of US healthcare. Many Americans do not believe everyone deserves healthcare, so it is really galling when a murderer gets free expensive medical treatment but people who are law abiding, working citizens cannot afford medical care. My solution is that the government should assure all it's citizens have proper healthcare therefore avoiding these moral conundrums of who deserves to suffer and who deserves to be well. Ironically the Americans who seem most opposed to this idea identify as Christian.

It does seem rather barbaric that people actually debate who should and who should not receive healthcare. 

jg1962 is also right. The gay community needs to do a better job at standing up for the rights of the trans community.  Lest we forget it was drag queens who had the courage to fight back at Stonewall.

Offline Pilot

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2012, 11:48:44 PM »
If I remember the original article correctly this person is serving a life sentence with no possibility of parole. The argument was that the gender issue was causing great mental anguish and quality of life issues for the person according to his/her attorney.

This person committed cold blooded murder of his wife.  He was sentenced to life in prison. His mental anguish from gender identification in my opinion is just another part of his sentence and should not be covered by the tax payers.

If the tax payers are forced to foot the bill as the judge ruled, which by the way is being appealed, it opens a whole new can of worms.  The prison argued that control of a prisoner and the administering of the punishment rest solely in the prisons system and that the person in question did not have the same rights as everyone else. They further argued that it placed an undue burden upon the tax payers and upon the prison system to administer the sentence imposed by the court.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2012, 12:15:27 AM »
His mental anguish from gender identification in my opinion is just another part of his sentence and should not be covered by the tax payers.



This sounds a little like an endorsement for torture in my opinion .

There has also been a ruling by the courts that prisons should provide air conditioning because some facility's have conditions where the heat reaches 104 degres . I think people need to be careful and consider what is humane and inhumane treatment after a person has been incarcerated , how they are treated is a comment on society . The crime they committed to get there is a separate issue at that point in the process .
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:18:06 AM by jg1962 »

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2012, 02:17:09 AM »
Speaking of "slippery slopes," I can see the lawsuits now.  A female prisoner never really developed breasts, and has what looks like a male chest.  She believes breasts are key to what makes a woman a woman.  She is depressed and wants breast enlargement surgery.  Do tax payers foot the bill?  Or, a male prisoner developed what looks like female breasts.  He is depressed and feels he does not feel like a man with the enlarged breasts.  Do tax payers foot the bill for a breast reduction? 

And, this will happen.  Other prisoners will claim they don't feel whole, so they are entitled to a surgery as well.  I fully support lifesaving meds and treatment.  HIV meds obviously fall under that.  You will not die without the reassignment surgery.  I don't think the justice system can make everyone feel whole.  From what I read, they have a hard enough time getting lifesaving drugs (such as HIV meds) to the prisoners.  I do believe a prisoner should continue to get hormone therapy, if they were already on it.  To take them off would be cruel.  I think non-emergency surgeries are going too far.  The prison would also have to pay for all the follow-up treatment, and treatment if there were complications.  This would open them up to more lawsuits, if the patient got an infection.         

Offline darryaz

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2012, 09:00:11 AM »
I think Medicare and Medicaid SHOULD pay for it.  If I'm not mistaken, gender identity disorder has become recognized as a mental health condition.  If sex reassignment is the solution, then it should be available.

Whether it should be available to an incarcerated person is the issue I have trouble with.  It seems (to me) that the person gave up some of his/her rights when he/she committed a violent crime.  Not sure whether this is one of those rights or not.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2012, 09:32:17 AM »
Speaking of "slippery slopes," I can see the lawsuits now.  A female prisoner never really developed breasts, and has what looks like a male chest.  She believes breasts are key to what makes a woman a woman.  She is depressed and wants breast enlargement surgery.  Do tax payers foot the bill?  Or, a male prisoner developed what looks like female breasts.  He is depressed and feels he does not feel like a man with the enlarged breasts.  Do tax payers foot the bill for a breast reduction? 

And, this will happen.  Other prisoners will claim they don't feel whole, so they are entitled to a surgery as well.  I fully support lifesaving meds and treatment.  HIV meds obviously fall under that.  You will not die without the reassignment surgery.  I don't think the justice system can make everyone feel whole.  From what I read, they have a hard enough time getting lifesaving drugs (such as HIV meds) to the prisoners.  I do believe a prisoner should continue to get hormone therapy, if they were already on it.  To take them off would be cruel.  I think non-emergency surgeries are going too far.  The prison would also have to pay for all the follow-up treatment, and treatment if there were complications.  This would open them up to more lawsuits, if the patient got an infection.       

Ted, 
There is a huge difference between what a person/prisoner "feels" they need and what a doctor thinks they need.  I think the real problem here is that you don't really get what gender identity disorder really is about.  A mental health disease is just as worthy of treatment as a physical one.
Is it your take that we should just let this person's meal health deteriorate to the point that they commit suicide?  Now THAT would save taxpayers some money!
Bottom line - doctors should decide what is and is not needed, not taxpayers.  Plus, there are lots of things that my tax dollars pay for that I do not like, I don't get to say " do not use my money for that.". Politicians do, of course - you want them to decide what should be covered?

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
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Offline Common_ground

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2012, 10:38:51 AM »
In a better(sane) world we wouldn't even discuss this question, healthcare would be free and available for all, be it a prisoner or not. But in this god forgotten world the problem is grounded in the inequalities of wealth and how it is distributed between rich and poor.

Now, that being said and back to the original question, if tax payers should pay for this kind of procedure?

Im leaning towards no because of it not being a physical health issue. I understand the struggles and the mental hardship this inmate might go through but with the strain on the economy money would be better spent on someone else. I don't however see the difference if the patient would be in prison or not, that's irrelevant in my opinion.

This is all very hypothetical and it doesn't necessarily mean the money aimed to be spent on a surgery likes this benefits someone else in need. But IF that were a reality then I would opt no for procedures like this and let someone with lets say a life threatening condition jump the que. (No, I dont see sex change as immediately life saving)

Best way to go would of course be to raise taxes for corporate earnings, moving money overseas, high income earners etc. But since no one in power wants to give up anything for free I don't see that happening anytime soon, so we will probably continue to discuss problems like this in the foreseeable future.
2011 May - Neg.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2012, 11:05:52 AM »
If someone is repeatedly attempting to castrate themselves (as this person did) in addition to attempting to commit suicide, then I'm not sure how you can honestly state that this hasn't crossed over from purely a mental health issue to one of a physical impact -- as well as cost.

On another note, I'm happy that some of you are not in positions of authority when it comes to either medical care or making un-biased judicial decisions.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline darryaz

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2012, 11:25:06 AM »
I'm happy that some of you are not in positions of authority when it comes to either medical care or making un-biased judicial decisions.

I'm happy that I don't have to be the one making that decision as well.

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 11:43:35 AM »
If someone is repeatedly attempting to castrate themselves (as this person did) in addition to attempting to commit suicide, then I'm not sure how you can honestly state that this hasn't crossed over from purely a mental health issue to one of a physical impact -- as well as cost.

On another note, I'm happy that some of you are not in positions of authority when it comes to either medical care or making un-biased judicial decisions.

If someone is trying to castrate themselves and/or trying to commit suicide I dont believe surgery is the way to go. This person needs to see a psychologist and get into therapy first hand to go to the bottom of his/hers issues. (Now dont read this as some shrink will force this person into living as a man. )

Hypothetically:
If you had one surgery..... Would you give average Joe a shot at a triple bypass or sex change to an inmate?

 
2011 May - Neg.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 11:56:09 AM »
If someone is trying to castrate themselves and/or trying to commit suicide I dont believe surgery is the way to go. This person needs to see a psychologist and get into therapy first hand to go to the bottom of his/hers issues. (Now dont read this as some shrink will force this person into living as a man. )

Hypothetically:
If you had one surgery..... Would you give average Joe a shot at a triple bypass or sex change to an inmate?

 

The person in question has already been that route -- for 20 years IIRC. Seriously, do you know anything about this subject?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 12:12:31 PM »
Obviously I don't then. Thanks for the lecture.
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
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2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 12:57:52 PM »
If someone is trying to castrate themselves and/or trying to commit suicide I dont believe surgery is the way to go. This person needs to see a psychologist and get into therapy first hand to go to the bottom of his/hers issues. (Now dont read this as some shrink will force this person into living as a man. )

Hypothetically:
If you had one surgery..... Would you give average Joe a shot at a triple bypass or sex change to an inmate?

I don't think you get it at all -- if you do, you aren't explaining yourself well.
This person has been in therapy and it seems that the doctors agree that the proper treatment to STOP all this destructive behavior is to have the sex reassignment surgery.  You don't seem to understand (or perhaps just don't agree) that this condition is an actual thing -- not a whim, not, truly, elective at all.  Is it as urgently immediate as someone with a blown aneurysm, probably not -- but fortunately for us -- your silly hypothetical isn't reality.  There ISN'T ONLY one surgery available -- it is simply a red herring, worthy of the far-right and their war on women's health.
I mean really -- if you simply don't agree that sexual identity disorder is a real medical issue, just say so -- don't try to justify it with nonesensical hypotheticals.
Mike
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 01:08:33 PM »
Mike, I need a reliable vehicle to get back and forth to the doctors office do you think that I should be provided that?

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2012, 01:16:44 PM »
I can see how you would want to give the inmate what they want/need, but is it really fair for the taxpayer to fund an expensive surgery most people deem elective.  Aside from the mental health issues inherent in this would not having this surgery kill this person?  The answer is no rendering it not medically necessitated.  There's absolutely no guarantee that having the surgery would stop the suicide attempts.  It is not the solution to this problem in my opinion.

(Oh, what a stark contrast to Miss P's opinion.  There's a big shock for everyone :) )

It seems the argument you are constructing is that the inmate is attempting to take his own life, and to stop this you would grant him the surgery he needs.  So if a female inmate were to want larger breasts and she attempted to commit suicide with that as the motive then the state pays for breast enlargement?  Not a slippery slope/informal fallacy, but pretty much the same situation.  It would just have to be medically backed.

Also your cost analysis is a little off, yes the court costs were about the rough cost of ONE surgery, but if there were more than one suddenly the costs begin to a bit more extreme.  However, I doubt there are tons of inmates rushing to get gender reassignment surgery.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2012, 01:33:18 PM »

I mean really -- if you simply don't agree that sexual identity disorder is a real medical issue, just say so -- don't try to justify it with nonesensical hypotheticals.
Mike

That's basically what this thread boils down to, but the "anti" contingent seems to prefer to dance around saying it.

And, then it would follow, if that's what they believe then they should also advocate taking the "T" out of LGBT.

I can see how you would want to give the inmate what they want/need, but is it really fair for the taxpayer to fund an expensive surgery most people deem elective. 

Guess what Lil' Buckaroo -- the unwashed masses don't decide these issues. Medical professionals do, and the judicial system uses them as experts to decide things in accordance with the law. Welcome to reality.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 01:34:52 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2012, 01:42:26 PM »
And apparently said medical professionals feel that the subject in question has fulfilled the requirements for a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder per the DSM-IV.

In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions' of the other sex. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.

In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the following: in boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough-and- tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games, and activities; in girls, rejection of urinating in a sitting position, assertion that she has or will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion toward normative feminine clothing.

B. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g. request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.

C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.

D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Modified to add link.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 01:45:36 PM by Solo_LTSurvivor »
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Offline Ann

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2012, 02:26:10 PM »

So if a female inmate were to want larger breasts and she attempted to commit suicide with that as the motive then the state pays for breast enlargement? 


Attempting to equate breast enlargement surgery to gender reassignment surgery is like trying to compare apples to .... horses. Not in any way, shape or form the same thing.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

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HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline buginme2

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2012, 02:32:55 PM »
If someone is diagnosed with depression, schitzophrenia, liver disease, kidney disease, cancer, or an ingrown hair and the treatment is surgery which we (taxpayers) cover then I fail to see how this is any different.

If you decide not to treat someone simply because "its too expensive" then I hope none yall ever get put in the pokey as HIV meds are quite costly and ai am sure the taxpayers would rather not pay for such an expense...especially since we all got in some deviant manner.

Offline Ann

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2012, 02:38:20 PM »

especially since we all got in some deviant manner.


Speak for yourself. I got it the way most people got it - through unprotected intercourse. It's not deviant, it's one of the most natural activities in which people engage, one that pretty much every single adult on the planet has done at some time in their life. And that includes anal. If you think anal is deviant, then I feel sorry for you.
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2012, 02:40:48 PM »
For me, the only relevant questions are:

-   How much money is at the disposal of the State for medical procedures?

-   What other medical procedures are funded by the tax payerís dollars?

If there are equally costly procedures/treatments for equally serious conditions (the Ďseriousness of conditioní to be defined by medical professionals only) that have been allocated State funds (or are presently), then there is no reasonable basis to deny this person the same right. And since it appears that these criteria have already been met in this case, there really is nothing left to say. It really is that simple in my head.

If it is a finance consideration then stick to that line instead of muddying the waters by throwing in bigoted arguments (which are just that, no matter how they are veiled).

No non-transgendered person, especially those with no personal knowledge, or those lacking vicarious experience of Gender Identity Disorders, have any idea of what it is like being in that position, and thus they really should have no right to pass judgments that could so severely impact the otherís life, that too in a palpably negative way. But we donít live in an ideal world.

As an aside, I belong to a developing country where large numbers still donít get 3 proper meals a day, where many children die of malnutrition and where State funds and resources in the health sector, are not only stretched but direly lacking. And therefore, if something like this was proposed here (not that I could ever imagine such a thing), as much as I would sympathise, I could not bring myself in agreement with such  a prioritization of funds, for it would be injudicious to the point of being criminal. But hell, if you live in a rich country or State then, different rules apply.
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Offline buginme2

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2012, 02:41:49 PM »
Ok I was being fecicious.  I was just making a point that people would use the same excuse not to pay for my HIV meds as they would not to pay for this surgery.  I dont think that

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2012, 02:49:41 PM »
Attempting to equate breast enlargement surgery to gender reassignment surgery is like trying to compare apples to .... horses. Not in any way, shape or form the same thing.

I am obviously not a woman, but I've heard numerous women, who've had their breasts removed after cancer, say their breasts were key to what made them a woman.  I first used the analogy.  Are we prepared to pay for breast enlargement surgeries or breast restoration surgeries for prisoners serving life?  Surgeries that are not life saving.  Many insurance companies say gender reassignment surgery is elective.  Yes, they say many things are elective.  I am just saying law abiding citizens have to save their money for the surgery. 

You may think you cannot equate the two and I may think that.  But, what we think won't matter.  Another prisoner just needs a doctor to say whatever condition causes mental anguish and they would just point to this case and say their anguish is just as valid. 

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2012, 03:00:09 PM »
That's basically what this thread boils down to, but the "anti" contingent seems to prefer to dance around saying it.

And, then it would follow, if that's what they believe then they should also advocate taking the "T" out of LGBT.

Guess what Lil' Buckaroo -- the unwashed masses don't decide these issues. Medical professionals do, and the judicial system uses them as experts to decide things in accordance with the law. Welcome to reality.

C'mon girl, you're arguing with people that believe the only good gay is a white gay.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2012, 03:35:52 PM »
I am obviously not a woman, but I've heard numerous women, who've had their breasts removed after cancer, say their breasts were key to what made them a woman.  I first used the analogy.  Are we prepared to pay for breast enlargement surgeries or breast restoration surgeries for prisoners serving life?  Surgeries that are not life saving.  Many insurance companies say gender reassignment surgery is elective.  Yes, they say many things are elective.  I am just saying law abiding citizens have to save their money for the surgery. 

You may think you cannot equate the two and I may think that.  But, what we think won't matter.  Another prisoner just needs a doctor to say whatever condition causes mental anguish and they would just point to this case and say their anguish is just as valid.

If you think that breast enlargement and breast restoration are equivalent, then you really are not interested in understanding anything here -- only in trying to reassert your postion.  My mother lost a breast to cancer and I can tell you -- the whole time that she fought with her insurance company to cover the reconstruction surgery was a nightmare.  She was a completely different person, mentally, during this time - I am not exaggerating when I say that we were all worried for her well being.  Once she had her breast back, we got my mother back.  This was NOT elective.
Again -- if you want to say that this person doesn't deserve the surgery because you don't think they have a true medical condition -- say so.  These absurd comparisons aren't working.

Taxpayers pay for a whole host of "non-life saving" medical things, btw..........  Eyeglasses, eye exams, ear exams, hearing aids, prosthetic limbs, teeth cleanings, nail fungus treatment, bunion surgery -- shall I go on?  Where is your outrage on these expenditures??  It always pisses me off when gay folks are so willing to throw the transgendered under the bus.  You may be trying to find a way to make it look differently, but unless you are outraged on the procedures I just mentioned being done at taxpayer expense (in prison, on Medicaid, on Medicare, on VA benefits) then your position is based, at best, on a lack of understanding, or, at worst, on bigotry.

Mike
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Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2012, 04:25:06 PM »
Attempting to equate breast enlargement surgery to gender reassignment surgery is like trying to compare apples to .... horses. Not in any way, shape or form the same thing.

Why?  The previous argument made was that the inmate's condition was causing depression.  Depression caused suicide and self castration attempts.  If one inmate was doing it because they wanted gender reassignment and the other was doing it in an attempt to get breast enlargement the cause and effect are the same.

I don't stand in the way of anyone who wants to have gender reassignment surgery, but if the state of louisiana were doing that for prisoners I would be very unhappy that my tax dollars were going toward it.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2012, 04:39:40 PM »
Why?  The previous argument made was that the inmate's condition was causing depression.  Depression caused suicide and self castration attempts.  If one inmate was doing it because they wanted gender reassignment and the other was doing it in an attempt to get breast enlargement the cause and effect are the same.


You are quite right. These features and requirements listed below are just as applicable to breast enlargement.

 
And apparently said medical professionals feel that the subject in question has fulfilled the requirements for a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder per the DSM-IV.

In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions' of the other sex. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.

In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the following: in boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough-and- tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games, and activities; in girls, rejection of urinating in a sitting position, assertion that she has or will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion toward normative feminine clothing.

B. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g. request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.

C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.

D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Modified to add link.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2012, 04:44:00 PM »
There's something very wrong with cocksuckers who bitch, scream and moan about society treating them so badly when they had no choice in being a cocksucker, but then turn around and label the transgendered as not being born that way and surgery to correct this as elective and cosmetic in nature.

I think that's called hypocrisy, but I'm just not sure. Maybe it's just being an asswipe.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2012, 04:51:14 PM »
This is just a very sad thread.  I guess there will always be some folks who see those different from themselves as less deserving and, let's be blunt, less human than they are.   They will, of course, look for arguments to justify treating other differently than themselves, but it is really just the difference that rules their minds.  Bigotry shall never die.

Mike
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2012, 05:00:37 PM »
There's something very wrong with cocksuckers who bitch, scream and moan about society treating them so badly when they had no choice in being a cocksucker, but then turn around and label the transgendered as not being born that way and surgery to correct this as elective and cosmetic in nature.

I think that's called hypocrisy, but I'm just not sure. Maybe it's just being an asswipe.
How does this post get turned from do you think the taxpayers should pay for a sex reassignment, to you might just be an asswipe if you don't think taxpayers should pay for the reassignment to a con? Let's ask the victims family what they think.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2012, 05:04:35 PM »
How does this post get turned from do you think the taxpayers should pay for a sex reassignment, to you might just be an asswipe if you don't think taxpayers should pay for the reassignment to a con? Let's ask the victims family what they think.

Hey, guess what Rocket Scientist -- victims' families don't get to decide how the US Constitution applies to prisoner treatment. Kind of like how they don't sit in judgement during a court case.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2012, 05:15:46 PM »
You show me in what state that sexual reinsignment is paid by the taxpayer for a con in prison?

Offline anniebc

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2012, 05:43:16 PM »
This is just a very sad thread.  I guess there will always be some folks who see those different from themselves as less deserving and, let's be blunt, less human than they are.   They will, of course, look for arguments to justify treating other differently than themselves, but it is really just the difference that rules their minds.  Bigotry shall never die.

Mike
There's something very wrong with cocksuckers who bitch, scream and moan about society treating them so badly when they had no choice in being a cocksucker, but then turn around and label the transgendered as not being born that way and surgery to correct this as elective and cosmetic in nature.

I think that's called hypocrisy, but I'm just not sure. Maybe it's just being an asswipe.

I love it when somone is inside my head, it saves me from struggling to find ways of putting pen to paper, so to speak, especially when I get angry with those who have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

Thank you Bocker and Miss P..you worded it perfectly.

Aroha
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2012, 05:50:38 PM »
I'm with Mike on this issue , this thread is very sad to me .

Part of the reason why the debate on health care reform is so frustrating for me is because people form opinions without understanding the issues involved , and this thread is another example of this . 

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2012, 06:13:21 PM »
This is just a very sad thread.  I guess there will always be some folks who see those different from themselves as less deserving and, let's be blunt, less human than they are.   They will, of course, look for arguments to justify treating other differently than themselves, but it is really just the difference that rules their minds.  Bigotry shall never die.

Mike

Right on, Mike.  Portions of this thread have started to reek of the ol' trolls and disability queens need not apply mentality  ::)
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Offline Raf

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2012, 06:20:30 PM »
Is this surgery available to all the trans community in general?
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2012, 06:25:33 PM »
Is this surgery available to all the trans community in general?

How is that relavent to the judicial decision in Massachusetts which is the topic of this thread?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Raf

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2012, 06:43:06 PM »
How is that relavent to the judicial decision in Massachusetts which is the topic of this thread?

For me, it is. As long as people outside prison don't have access to the surgery, it's foolish to even discuss for people in prison.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2012, 06:58:02 PM »
For me, it is. As long as people outside prison don't have access to the surgery, it's foolish to even discuss for people in prison.

Prisoner's get three square meals a day -- is that required outside of prison? Clearly, no -- hence why your question is irrelevant to the discussion. Likewise, as previously pointed out, HIV care and medications are required to be provided for prisoners. Is that the case outside of prison?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Raf

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2012, 07:06:01 PM »
Prisoner's get three square meals a day -- is that required outside of prison? Clearly, no -- hence why your question is irrelevant to the discussion. Likewise, as previously pointed out, HIV care and medications are required to be provided for prisoners. Is that the case outside of prison?

And that's one the twisted things of your health care system. It's humorous when you defend the rights of the trans people on prison, but forget those outside of it.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2012, 07:16:28 PM »
It's humorous when you defend the rights of the trans people on prison, but forget those outside of it.

Did you fail 5th grade remedial debate class or something? Where have I anywhere in this thread said something that would give you the impression that I hold that opinion? Or were you directing that comment at the judge? A judge would not offer an opinion on that either.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2012, 07:26:48 PM »
A transgender woman serving a life sentence without parole for killing her wife in 1990. Taxpayers should pay for her surgery, when she took the life of someone else?           

Offline Raf

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2012, 07:36:50 PM »
Did you fail 5th grade remedial debate class or something? Where have I anywhere in this thread said something that would give you the impression that I hold that opinion? Or were you directing that comment at the judge? A judge would not offer an opinion on that either.

You mad or something? it's so hard to understand that in my opinion, while people out of prison don't have easy access to these surgeries, people on prison should not? (yeah, I'm reducing it to the term: "prisoner=Icky").

You can begin to call me bigot for that  ;)
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2012, 07:54:19 PM »
A transgender woman serving a life sentence without parole for killing her wife in 1990. Taxpayers should pay for her surgery, when she took the life of someone else?           

Well, then let's just kill all the convicts.  Why should taxpayers foot the bill for their food, lodging, etc. 
It should not matter why she is in prison.  This is a MEDICAL QUESTION - at present, the state pays all her medical bills -- that means ALL her medical bills.  I'm good with excluding elective care -- this has been deemed as necessary care by her doctors.
Who's paying for YOUR medical care - BTW??  I'm sure there are some taxpayers who would object.

Although -- I do appreciate the fact that you aren't trying to twist logic to support your postion.  You are stating it plainly, you see convicts as less than human and not deserving of human rights.

M

Mike
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2012, 08:03:01 PM »
After reading this thread, I'm torn over being disgusted with some posters comments, suggesting that justice includes revenge or being dis-heartened by folks who seem to think that some mental health issues are unworthy of treatment.  I ask some of you, to take a minute and trade places with this person.  As someone who has battled mental disease all my life, I cannot even begin to explain to you how hard that battle can be, especially when people, just like you, don't think you deserve the treatment you need to live a meaningful life.

Our Constitution forbids "cruel and unusual punishment" and for good reason.  What some of you propose, by denying the required medical services to this person, is to condemn them for life, to a living hell.  That's not justice, that's revenge.  That goes way beyond what justice required, which has already been determined by a court of law.

One last point is that maybe you folks, who have never been touched by mental illness, should be careful about your assumptions.  I guarantee that most of what you "believe" about mental illness is wrong and your comments only confirm my point.  Be careful commenting about things of which you know little.

Joe

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2012, 08:09:22 PM »
Well, then let's just kill all the convicts.  Why should taxpayers foot the bill for their food, lodging, etc. 
It should not matter why she is in prison.  This is a MEDICAL QUESTION - at present, the state pays all her medical bills -- that means ALL her medical bills.  I'm good with excluding elective care -- this has been deemed as necessary care by her doctors.
Who's paying for YOUR medical care - BTW??  I'm sure there are some taxpayers who would object.

Although -- I do appreciate the fact that you aren't trying to twist logic to support your postion.  You are stating it plainly, you see convicts as less than human and not deserving of human rights.

M

Mike
There is no logic in your opinion. You don't think the victims family wouldn't like their family member back? Do you think it was humane for this person to take the life of another? What gives this person any rights? Had it been your relative Mike you would agree to it? I think not.

Did you happen to read what the victims relative said?

Brandel said that if Kosilek ultimately has the operation, she has hopes for what happens when the surgery begins.
 
ďWith luck, he will die on the operating table,íí said Brandel, who has worked in health care for 22 years. ďI would never, ever wish harm on anybody but him.íí She added, ďDid he care what he did to my aunt? No, he didnít.íí

Offline Hellraiser

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2012, 08:14:32 PM »
I'm so sick of the finger pointing.  On this issue some of us disagree then all of sudden we must hate/revile or do not understand the struggle of all transgender folks?  No, I am thoroughly disgusted by the accusation and you should be ashamed for trying to make the leap.

As for whomever said we must not be educated on the issues that is a complete fallacy.  Do you assume anyone who has a disagreement with you must not be educated?  That is the height of self-importance.

For all the longing and mental anguish I am sure this person must be going through I still don't support taxpayer funds paying for sex reassignment surgery.


Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2012, 09:15:06 PM »
There is no logic in your opinion. You don't think the victims family wouldn't like their family member back? Do you think it was humane for this person to take the life of another? What gives this person any rights? Had it been your relative Mike you would agree to it? I think not.

Did you happen to read what the victims relative said?

Brandel said that if Kosilek ultimately has the operation, she has hopes for what happens when the surgery begins.
 
ďWith luck, he will die on the operating table,íí said Brandel, who has worked in health care for 22 years. ďI would never, ever wish harm on anybody but him.íí She added, ďDid he care what he did to my aunt? No, he didnít.íí
Actually, my opinion DID have logic.  Yours is purely emotion based.  The victim's family would likely say the same thing if we were talking about a kidney transplant or a bypass.  Justice is not based on emotion, revenge is.  If you believe in an eye for an eye, fine.
I have yet to hear anyone raise a reason to not pay for this other than thinking the person or the condition is not worthy.  That is usually the argument used for keeping rights from any "other" group.

Mike
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2012, 09:18:46 PM »
He's a murdering convict. Taxpayers money would be better used on feeding the hungry instead of a sex reassignment to a convicted murder. He gave up his rights when he took a life.

Offline Joe K

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2012, 10:46:36 PM »
He's a murdering convict. Taxpayers money would be better used on feeding the hungry instead of a sex reassignment to a convicted murder. He gave up his rights when he took a life.

Nobody gives up their right to humane treatment by committing a criminal act.  That's why they are called rights.

Joe

Offline WillyWump

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2012, 11:38:57 PM »
Nobody gives up their right to humane treatment by committing a criminal act. 

Joe

I'll guess I will come down off the fence now.

Incarceration in and of itself is inhumane. It is not natural to lock a human up in a cage, it is inhumane. But so is murdering another human, that is inhumane. So when you commit certain grievous criminal acts you in essence give up your right to humane treatment. Now we on the outside like to label our treatment of our prisoners as "humane" so we can sleep at night in our cozy homes and warm beds, but who are we kidding.

Now this inmate is already paying for his crime by being locked up, so IMHO any punishment above and beyond that is excessive. I think denying him this surgery is excessive punishment since a doctor deems it medically necessary, and since potentially if he was not incarcerated he could work and save up for the surgery himself (remember he is already paying his debt to society by serving time, I dont think his debt to society extends beyond that).

Give him his surgery.

For the people on the outside, Im not convinced we should be using taxpayer money for these types of surgeries. They can work and save up for it.
So I guess Ill go back up on the fence with that.

-W

« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 11:42:06 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline Raf

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2012, 12:20:25 AM »

Give him his surgery.

For the people on the outside, Im not convinced we should be using taxpayer money for these types of surgeries. They can work and save up for it.
So I guess Ill go back up on the fence with that.

-W

Using your logic, trans who cannot pay for their surgeries should be better robbing a bank or commiting any type of crime and getting their surgeries approved and made in prison.
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Offline anniebc

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2012, 12:30:59 AM »
You are stating it plainly, you see convicts as less than human and not deserving of human rights.

M

Mike

Thanks Mike.

Human rights are fundamental rights to which a person is entitled simply because she or he is a human being.

Human rights are conceived as universal and the same for everyone regardless of what you think of them, that's just the way it is.

Aroha
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2012, 03:07:58 AM »
That's total BS Jan. A murdering convict doesn't have any rights. You wouldn't be giving a convict any rights had the victum been one of your family members. How about one of your grand children now would you still have the same feelings. I bet not.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2012, 07:33:55 AM »
That's total BS Jan. A murdering convict doesn't have any rights. You wouldn't be giving a convict any rights had the victum been one of your family members. How about one of your grand children now would you still have the same feelings. I bet not.

Are you just being dense here???????  OF COURSE a victims family would want to lash out and get revenge.  However, they don't get to be the judge -- for very good reason.  As I and others have pointed out, emotions don't equate to justice, they equal revenge.  If you can't grasp a simple concept like that, stop debating.  I mean the Supreme Court has sided with prisoners on a number of cases over the years, so people who are far more informed in the law and the US Constitution than you are have already considered your moronic stand and disagreed with it.

I am open to honest debate -- but I haven't heard any compelling or logical reason for not following the doctor and judge's decisions.
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2012, 07:51:39 AM »
Would it make a difference all you have found time to do is come back with insults when people disagree with you. Now who is being dense here Mike? The question is was asked should taxpayers pay from a convicts sex reassignment and several answered no so you can argue your point all you like you aren't going to get us to change are minds to appease you.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2012, 09:38:50 AM »
That's total BS Jan. A murdering convict doesn't have any rights.

You're not a very bright person, Roddles

Also, this... seriously you're like taking candy away from a child. Certain rights are waived, others are not.

ps: the Massachusetts case was decided based on the 8th Amendment as well as precedent
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:48:48 AM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2012, 10:50:38 AM »
What is evident in much of the posts of those who are against taxpayers footing the bill for prisoner sex reassignment surgery for the prisoner is a belief in a concept formulated in the early 19th century known as "less eligibility." The premise is that the criminal justice system and other social systems must present to its usual subjects (criminals, the unemployed, underemployed, and the poor generally) punishments or conditions that are worse than the conditions of life in the "free world."  Supposedly, this is to serve as a deterrent to people wanting to commit crimes or end up in any of these "undesirable" categories ['undesirable' becomes defined by those in power or those in the presumed 'desirable' categories].

As stated early on in this thread - the underlying basis that drives some people to want to deprive the person in prison of this surgery is indeed a slippery slope. Because it is a core belief in many elements of society that has been applied outside of the prison walls to other "categories" of people - namely the poor, gays, the disabled, etc.

"Less eligibility was a condition of the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834.[1] It was intended to make workhouses a deterrent . It stated that working conditions in the workhouse had to be worse than the worst job possible outside the workhouse. This principle existed to deter people from claiming poor relief."

This is the line of thought that makes some states deprive people of having certain assets when qualifying for public assistance. Because God forbid a person on assistance should own a home, when the person who is not on assistance can not afford to do so..... This line of thinking actually led to a case in NYC years ago where a mother who was on welfare was required to move out of the home she owned and move into a "welfare hotel" in order to receive benefits and transportation for her disabled child to be taken to school.

The cost of moving her out of her home, paying the monthly welfare hotel fees, transportation fees to get her child to school, food stamps, etc. was more than 5 times the amount it would have cost to allow her to stay in her home and receive the benefits needed for assist her with caring for her child. But, this belief that she should not be entitled to have "more than what someone who was not on assistance has - less eligibility" created a situation where society was willing to pay more for her not to have.....

I'm sure many on here have experienced this same line of thinking.... we deprive people instead of perhaps examining what is preventing those in the so-called regular society from having.

A normal distinction was made between people,in terms of whether they were 'deserving' or not of social welfare.The concept of 'less eligibility' was explicitly developed and access to welfare was gained by passing certain 'test' e.g. Willingness to work, willingness to give up certain liberties. During the 19th century, governments used social policy to contain and deter the growing demand for social welfare.

Maybe its time to provide universal healthcare, time to ensure that people are able to achieve the dream of home ownership, and quit trying to follow a concepts, policies, and activities that are based on the flawed belief of "less eligiblity" - which has not been shown to reduce the number of people in prison, the number of people living in poverty, the number of people with disabilities, etc.

Provide the surgery and fix the flaw that exist in the "free" society of denial of equal access to healthcare to the general populace.

Citations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less_eligibility
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/poorlaw/eligible.html
http://www.buffalolawreview.org/past_issues/56_3/White%20Web%2056-3.pdf
http://www.allfreepapers.com/History-Other/Social-Policy/19607.html
http://www.policypress.co.uk/resources/roulstone/policythemes.asp
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12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2012, 11:32:05 AM »
I also wanted to add an additional link that shows how the concept of less eligibility is so flawed...

http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/publications/social/sarac/jobs_sarac.aspx

Basically, this is the same concept that leads the US to provide SSI and Social Security disability payments that are so low; unemployment payments that are low; food stamp benefits that are low; lack of access to healthcare for those who are perhaps single and working in lower wage positions; lack of gender reassignment surgery coverage by many insurance companies; lack of benefits to same-sex couples....

It is the "power" structures way of trying to discourage/eliminate what they see as unwanted behaviors, classes, "undesirables," etc..... A method of cruel control.

As the article in the link shows, it is a flawed concept and fails to address things such as the provision of a truly living wage for the employed, equal access to healthcare, fair and humane benefits for those who are disabled, etc.

The denial of rights to those incarcerated has been proven to do nothing to lower the rate of recidivism or crime. In fact, those countries that provide full rights to those incarcerated actually have lower rates of incarceration and crime than those countries that deprive inmates of these rights. Simple research will prove this statement.

BTW, for those who think that revenge is the answer:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainstorm/200911/why-getting-revenge-isnt-worth-it

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Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Ann

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2012, 11:44:36 AM »
One very telling aspect of this thread is the repeated use of the male pronoun by some people when talking about Michelle Kosilek. It points to a fundamental ignorance and lack of understanding of what being transgendered is all about. This person is a woman who happens to have male physical characteristics through some "accident of birth" (for want of a better phrase coming to me), a biological dysfunction which is still not fully understood by medical science.

Anyone remember the days when hiv was not fully understood by medical science and the hell positive people were put through as a result? It still isn't fully understood. That doesn't make it any less real, or any less a serious medical condition which requires treatment.

---

One thing that really disturbs me which has yet to be mentioned in this thread is this; we are talking about a WOMAN, who is currently incarcerated in an ALL MALE correctional facility. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that little mentioned fact. Talk about inhumane treatment. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be locked up with a bunch of men for the rest of my life. I would feel in constant danger and very, very vulnerable.

---

A few people have said something along the lines of "what if you were this victim's family?" For me, it would be enough that the perpetrator of the crime was incarcerated - for the protection of others. I would not want that person to go without food, shelter or health care deemed necessary by medical science. I'm not a vindictive person. I also do not support the death penalty. Taking a life is wrong and two wrongs do not make a right. Withholding necessary medical treatment is also wrong, regardless of whom you are withholding it from. Necessary medical treatment is a basic human right, not a luxury.

---

While I do not in any way think it was right for Michelle Kosilek to take another human being's life, I have to wonder what drove her to it. As a transgendered woman, was she being mentally tortured by her wife? Although transgender rights have come a long way since 1990 when she committed murder (and still have far to go), in 1990 she would have likely had very little recourse or resources to help her deal with what may have been going on.

I fully admit that this is pure speculation on my part, but my gut instinct tells me that the transgender issue had a lot to do with what took place. If there had been help and support available to her in the years leading up to and including 1990, perhaps things never would have escalated to the point of murder. I have not been able to find any news reports from 1990 that may shed some light on purported motives - has anyone else had any luck (or interest) in this aspect of the situation?
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Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2012, 11:54:23 AM »
Provide the surgery and fix the flaw that exist in the "free" society of denial of equal access to healthcare to the general populace.

Agreed.

Thank you for posting the information-- very interesting.

Offline WillyWump

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2012, 12:05:37 PM »
What about Obamacare? How does that play into this...since deemed medically necessary wouldnt it be covered? Not only for him, but for anyone (in or out of prison)?

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Offline Dennis

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2012, 12:07:20 PM »
I think Phil hit the nail on the head. Itís not that most donít understand the negative implications to a transgendered individual who doesnít receive the necessary medical treatment. They disagree and are outraged with the fact that people in the same condition, in free society, do not easily have the same access to such treatment. While the medical community has since jumped into the 21st century and deemed this procedure medically necessary, insurance companies have not followed suit. Therefore, for most, this procedure would be unattainable in most situations. Should the 8th amendment not apply to all U.S. citizens, whether they are incarcerated or not?

Not only is this individual receiving treatment at taxpayers expense, she also had the opportunity to bring this issue to court. At taxpayers expense, I might ad. Something, again, which is not financially feasible to most in this situation. And I doubt if an individual in free society were to bring his/her issue before a judge, the outcome would be much different.

I agree with Phil. Not only regading fixing equal healthcare to ALL, but applying the the Constitution AND the Bill of Rights to ALL citizens. It drives me crazy when I hear people talk about "gay rights.". There is no such thing as gay rights.

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2012, 12:09:12 PM »
Using your logic, trans who cannot pay for their surgeries should be better robbing a bank or commiting any type of crime and getting their surgeries approved and made in prison.

Raf, I think you're arguing from a purely emotional standpoint. The law doesn't work that way.

Once someone is in prison they automatically come under the domain and purview of the authorities/ the State and they become subject to different rules and regulations. Those rules seek to punish them but the State, all the same, guarantees certain protections and rights as human beings.

I'll offer you a countervailing example to the one you put forward:- if someone commits suicide in their home (unless it is a result of coercion or the like) no one else can be held directly responsible, but if this happens in prison the person on whose watch this occurred would be held accountable and answerable. Likewise, the State is directly responsible for the physical and mental well-being of the prisoners notwithstanding their offences etc.

In addition to Miss P's link here's the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners as prescribed by the United Nations High Commission of Human Rights.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/treatmentprisoners.htm
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Offline Raf

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2012, 01:42:22 PM »
I think Phil hit the nail on the head. Itís not that most donít understand the negative implications to a transgendered individual who doesnít receive the necessary medical treatment. They disagree and are outraged with the fact that people in the same condition, in free society, do not easily have the same access to such treatment. While the medical community has since jumped into the 21st century and deemed this procedure medically necessary, insurance companies have not followed suit. Therefore, for most, this procedure would be unattainable in most situations. Should the 8th amendment not apply to all U.S. citizens, whether they are incarcerated or not?

Not only is this individual receiving treatment at taxpayers expense, she also had the opportunity to bring this issue to court. At taxpayers expense, I might ad. Something, again, which is not financially feasible to most in this situation. And I doubt if an individual in free society were to bring his/her issue before a judge, the outcome would be much different.

I agree with Phil. Not only regading fixing equal healthcare to ALL, but applying the the Constitution AND the Bill of Rights to ALL citizens. It drives me crazy when I hear people talk about "gay rights.". There is no such thing as gay rights.

Nicely put Dennis, I agree with you 100%

Raf, I think you're arguing from a purely emotional standpoint. The law doesn't work that way.

Once someone is in prison they automatically come under the domain and purview of the authorities/ the State and they become subject to different rules and regulations. Those rules seek to punish them but the State, all the same, guarantees certain protections and rights as human beings.

I'll offer you a countervailing example to the one you put forward:- if someone commits suicide in their home (unless it is a result of coercion or the like) no one else can be held directly responsible, but if this happens in prison the person on whose watch this occurred would be held accountable and answerable. Likewise, the State is directly responsible for the physical and mental well-being of the prisoners notwithstanding their offences etc.

Emotional or not, I bet that many people who are saving for years, or trying to get ASOs to help them to get their surgeries (even diagnosed and everything) won't find funny that a murderer got the operation they are desperate to get, free, and with their taxes money.

I get clearly your point, but If the state have obligations with the people IN prison, they should have with the people outside, specially with the taxpayers.
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Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2012, 02:03:57 PM »
In regards to the question posed about Medicare, Medicaid and incarceration:

Medicare:
A person in jail still receives Medicare Part A (if on it prior to incarceration); however, in order to receive Part B - they have to pay the premiums (which would probably be difficult at $98+ per month - considering they are in jail and not earning that type of income)
Source:
http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1228/~/effects-on-medicare-when-in-jail

Medicaid:
In regards to Medicaid - most states suspend/terminate Medicaid eligibility for persons incarcerated.
Source: http://www.communityvoices.org/Uploads/HealthcareIncarcerationMedicaid_00108_00212.pdf

It appears that "Obamacare" would perhaps provide a loophole, which would allow prisoners to be covered for hospitalizations lasting 24 hours or longer (as the incarcerated person who is in a community-based hospital for more than 24 hours would no longer be categorized as incarcerated - allowing for expanded Medicaid (which would cover those with incomes up to 133% of FPL to be covered) to kick in. This would actually be a plus for state prison budgets as the states could then rely/defer to the feds to pick up the tab for hospital services that they currently have to fund out of their own budgets.
September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2012, 05:56:27 PM »
Would it make a difference all you have found time to do is come back with insults when people disagree with you. Now who is being dense here Mike? The question is was asked should taxpayers pay from a convicts sex reassignment and several answered no so you can argue your point all you like you aren't going to get us to change are minds to appease you.

I'm not trying to change your mind darling. 
I wasn't calling you dense for your opinion, I was calling you dense because you keep using emotion as a basis to decide LAW.  YOU were the one who accused me of lacking logic earlier -- I merely was pointing out that you were being emotional and emotion does not dictate justice.  Of course, you avoided responding to that.
You have a right to your emotion and your opinion -- but I'm not going to sit by when you say I am lacking logic when, in fact, it is your opinion that lacks logic. 
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Offline OneTampa

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2012, 07:38:55 PM »
Highly pitched thread. Here is a different spool used to sew a similar garment about prisoners and healthcare written by Elton John recently concerning prisoners and HIV that appeared in The Washington Post.

Excerpt:

"...HIV-positive prisoners also face barriers to accessing the treatment they need to manage their disease and keep it from progressing ó treatment, which we now know, doubles as prevention. And by depriving HIV-positive prisoners of equal treatment, Alabama and South Carolina promote fear, prejudice, and even violence against them..."

Link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/elton-john-hiv-positive-prisoners-in-alabama-and-south-carolina-face-discriminatory-practices/2012/09/16/439754bc-feaf-11e1-b153-218509a954e1_story.html
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 07:45:16 PM by OneTampa »
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2012, 08:44:57 PM »
Also, a judge ruled yesterday that taxpayers will have to also pony up for Michelle Kosilek's legal bills.

Harness that outrage, people.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Should Tax Payers Foot Bill For Prisoner Sex Reassignment Surgery?
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2012, 09:34:09 PM »
Bet you she doesn't get her sex reassignment.

 


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