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Author Topic: Anger in this forum  (Read 7021 times)

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Offline SurferJosh

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  • Posts: 18
Anger in this forum
« on: August 15, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
I wanted to start a new thread to discuss the hostility in this forum. It's not fair to the original posters to have their threads highjacked, so let's move the discussion here...

Before joining and posting here, I read and familiarized myself with the forum rules. I restricted myself to this board which I understood to be for partners/family/friends of someone with HIV. The forum guidelines claim that free speech and different opinions are welcome. But it seems like there's some unspoken rules.

Offline denb45

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 10:28:46 PM »
WTF are you talking about the only unspoken rules seems to be the ones you created for yourself  ::)


Hugs


DEN
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline drewm

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 11:04:51 PM »
Josh, the waters here can seem shark-infested at times. There are a lot of reasons for this. Personalities. Opinions. Life-experience. Understanding etc etc. The best advice I can offer is to listen. Listen to those of us carrying this virus and keep that in your mind. Please. I am just over 2 years into this disease, so still an infant when it comes to understanding all of the particulars that go along with it.

The # of years being POZ, or not being POZ for that matter are important. I no longer remember what it was like to be neg. I don't think anymore like someone who is neg. That being said, it's hard for me to relate to that way of thinking. I am simply not there anymore. I find that listening to the FACTS and different OPINIONS regarding this disease and it's effects, mental, physical and so on help with my understanding.

My feelings, emotions and opinions regarding teh AIDS are very real and very much a focus in my life but aside from the FACTS, my opinions are just that...opinions...from someone new to the rodeo. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a lot of anger on here from time to time, there is also a lot of compassion, learning and understanding. Try to listen and think outside the box. I can tell you the perspective from having this disease is totally different that when I was ignorant* of it.

*not using this as a slam but rather a state of being in regards to myself.
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 11:08:23 PM »
I wanted to start a new thread to discuss the hostility in this forum. It's not fair to the original posters to have their threads highjacked, so let's move the discussion here...

Before joining and posting here, I read and familiarized myself with the forum rules. I restricted myself to this board which I understood to be for partners/family/friends of someone with HIV. The forum guidelines claim that free speech and different opinions are welcome. But it seems like there's some unspoken rules.

Perhaps you would care to speak about these unspoken rules you refer to?  Because, until you do, they remain... well... unspoken.
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 11:25:34 PM »
You were offended that people were offended by your inflammatory posts, which are not only hostile to those with HIV but also advised courses of action that could lead to ruin, even physical harm?

How very dare you.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline mecch

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  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 11:55:05 PM »
Specifically this, for example:

If he is endangering others with drug use or exposing them to HIV, you can also take steps to notify them, if you feel that's needed.


You dont know much about people with HIV but are posting things based on your fears and stereotypes. Plus, the sentence is illogical.   Endangering others with drug use?  What's that supposed to mean...   

And the OP in that thread said NOTHING whatsoever about his/her having any thoughts about the friend "exposing" others to HIV.  What is that supposed to mean? 
You see, you come in here, with some baggage, and regrettably you put your foot in your mouth and let drop an very old, tiresome (for us), untrue, negative, hateful stereotype that HIV+ people are AIDS SPREADERS, in so many words.  See how that might offend some people?   Thats the inference we might fear you could be making.


Cherry on the gateau (or rather straw that breaks the camels back) you blather about notifying people to beware of the AIDS MONSTER, in so many words. (Again, its something I fear you believe kind of believe. Its what a lot of other people believe, and leads to HIV criminalisation, and so on ans so on.)

Now, can't you see these sorts of utterances wouldn't help the OP nor her friend?  Maybe just confuse!

Warrant a little bitch slap, you think?  Wise up!  Choose your words better, don't be so casual with them, and learn something about people with HIV.   
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:04:15 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline wolfter

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 05:10:49 AM »
Perhaps in your young life, you haven't figured out that any group will have unwritten rules!!!!! 

For me, I feel like a lot of your "opinions" are cloaked in morality and that won't bode well with a group of people who have lived with this virus longer than you've been living. 

I have a brother whom I'm very close with and he had a difficult time at first but he chose to listen and learn.  He is now one of my greatest supporters and I'm certain that he'd read some of your comments with scorn.

Therefore, I hope you can listen and read a little more often than talking and typing your opinions.  There's a wealth of information here, but it's only useful if you're willing to look outside of your internal worldview.

Even I, as a middle aged gay man with this virus, have changed my mindset since joining this forum and learning more about the world than my own opinions. 

Wolfie
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline 0608

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 12:18:26 PM »
 "The forum guidelines claim that free speech and different opinions are welcome."

Josh, I think that's exactly what's been at practice.  You expressed your opinions (which I've just read through) as you were perfectly entitled to.  And other people responded to your opinions with their opinions, just as they were equally entitled to do. 

Were some of those opinions strong and heated?  Sure.  But try to see it from another point of view.  We, as HIV-positive people, have to go through a whole lot that (I hate to sound condescending but this is irrevocably true) you simply will not be able to understand unless you yourself are in that position.  And when you casually (though probably not with intentional malice) imply that positives needed to be kept in check by others to not infect others, well, that's going to bring out strong reactions.

Imagine you went to the market today and an employee followed you all around the store, clearly thinking you were about to steal something.  How would you feel?  Now that comes from an unspoken accusation of just stealing.  Your comments, intentional or not, carried the unspoken accusation that we were not entitled to our rights to keep our status private because of the danger that we would be out in the world infecting innocent, unknowing people.

Maybe you're thinking, 'Oh, I wasn't talking about YOU (people on this forum).  I was talking about other positive people."  But there's no line there, Josh.  If your suggestion was carried out to the maxium degree, there would be no privacy rights for ANY positive person, and that includes those of all of us here.

That's why your comments provoked strong reactions.  If there IS any unspoken rule on this forum, maybe it's this:  Don't forget that we are people just like you, not some scary "they" who would do evil things that you would never do.

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 12:48:35 PM »
Hostility? I have come to realize in my rather short time here it can get hot on AM from time to time but the discussions are often in good manners (except I could do without some of the "belitteling").

How boring,dull and backwards it would be if consensus were to remain in a stalemate. The forum would be nothing without its members, whomever they are and whatever their opinions might be. I hope these very same members not stop question and debate because without that fire burning, that antithesis, we would end up a choir of ducks burping up the same old story over and over again.

Strength through diversity.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 12:52:23 PM by Common_ground »
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
2013 Feb  CD4:257, 24% VL:UD -viramune/truvada
2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline zach

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 03:24:19 PM »
here's an unspoken rule, imma holler it from the mountain top.

 >:( DO NOT EVER DISCLOSE THE HIV STATUS OF SOMEONE ELSE AGAINST THEIR WISHES OR WITHOUT CONSENT >:(

you advocate doing exactly that! you called a POV self-aggrandizing notions of privacy and consent?! i call your POV self righteous sanctimony.

you admitted in one of your posts you have some boundary issues, i suggest dealing with those before you spew disclosure advice. sorry your high class ass feels shame and embarrassment that "you" have more pressures because your brother is positive.

i'm sorry your brother is positive. i would love to welcome him to this forum. i have a feeling he needs support sorely missing from family. you need to get over yourself.

if you're brother disclosed, you'd feel better?! you've got to be fkn kidding. because this is after all, about josh, the negative brother.




Offline Rockin

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  • Posts: 494
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 03:24:10 PM »
I can take a guess here and say that Josh is still angry at his brother's infection and he's probably particularly angry at the guy who gave it to him. So he's angry that there are a bunch of HIV+ people walking around infecting everyone, as if they are doing it on purpose.

My mother had pretty much the same reaction when she found out. She was angry at my ex-boyfriend (still not sure it was him, but 90% sure) and I said "Mom, maybe he didn't know or still doesn't know and I'm to blame as well".

Josh, I don't know the story of your brother but, bottom line is, he didn't wear a condom. Period. So this is all as much his fault as the other guy. It's pointless to harbor this anger at HIV+ and you may state that you are not angry but your posts say otherwise.

Unless the person has been raped, sex is always about 2 people (or more for that matter) making a choice and undergoing whatever risk that choice brings. Your brother made a choice. 

Offline SurferJosh

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  • Posts: 18
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 06:03:56 AM »
I've been giving a lot of though whether I should continue to use this forum at all. This board is supposed to be for people who are dealing with friends or family with HIV, but it's clear that this is not a good place unless you're Poz or you're only interested in hearing a particular orthodox worldview of how to deal with family and friends with HIV.  This view glosses over a lot of the HIV related drug and behavioral problems I've been trying to understand.  Walking on eggshells around bitter people is not what I need right now.  I'm going to look for support offline in a different environment.

My only suggestion would be to split the Someone I Care About board into 2 separate groups: one were poz members can participate and one where only family and friends can post.

Offline karry

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 06:54:51 AM »
Walking on eggshells around bitter people is not what I need right now.  I'm going to look for support offline in a different environment

I was diagnosed with HIV in 2007....I am grateful I have the support of my family who do not feel like everyone else with HIV should be ousted, and who also know that I am not BITTER because of my status. They dont walk on eggshells around me, because they know that when it comes to disclosing my HIV status, it is my right and I earned it the hard way.

I feel sorry for your brother...he is going to need protection from you, because you still dont get the point here: ITS NOT ABOUT YOU, JOSH! Your brother has to be walking on eggshells around you because you will harm his health with your attitude.

I wish you luck on the other forums where you think people will support your views....but I am sure you wont find people tolerant of such views if they reason properly.
Karry

Take it a day at a time....and be positive about it too!

Offline wolfter

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 07:34:01 AM »
Joshie, here is the issue from my viewpoint; you're not here for support or knowledge but rather to espouse your views.  Kinda like saying you'll gladly accept our support as long as we agree with you.

Good luck with the hunt for the type of support you're looking for.  You've not been willing to at least consider what we're saying but rather, you're upset that we're doing so.

Wolfie, you probably would have had a knock down, drag out fight with my brother if he betrayed my trust and disclosed my status before I was mentally ready for it. :o
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 09:34:00 AM »
Walking on eggshells around bitter people is not what I need right now. 

nuf said...
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online Jeff G

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  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 10:06:10 AM »
I formed an opinion early on that Josh isn't suited to give or receive support in this forum or offer any to his brother . His advice and views about HIV is always self self centered and downright insulting to people living with it . Many of the members here gave him the benefit of doubt and tried to help him understand other points of view to no avail so if he chooses to leave then good riddance . 


Offline thunter34

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  • Posts: 7,325
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 10:26:07 AM »
I've been giving a lot of though whether I should continue to use this forum at all. This board is supposed to be for people who are dealing with friends or family with HIV, but it's clear that this is not a good place unless you're Poz or you're only interested in hearing a particular orthodox worldview of how to deal with family and friends with HIV.  This view glosses over a lot of the HIV related drug and behavioral problems I've been trying to understand.  Walking on eggshells around bitter people is not what I need right now.  I'm going to look for support offline in a different environment.

My only suggestion would be to split the Someone I Care About board into 2 separate groups: one were poz members can participate and one where only family and friends can post.


Ah, yes...one last little dig at the "bitter people" before you go, eh?  How utterly insulting - and yet so very expected.  People like you always resort to petty insults when confronted with the truth that, in reality, they don't really want the honest and productive support that will ultimately be most beneficial to all involved...they want coddlers and sycophants who will serve them appetizing and easy to swallow platitudes which will reinforce the beliefs they walked in the door with. 

That is just the case here.

Far from bitter, I'm about as peaceable and mellow as folks generally come - much nicer and accomodating than I probably should be at most times, I'd imagine.  And I've not had any interaction with you at all on these boards, but I've been quietly following your story from the day of your arrival.  I've followed all of your posts and all of the responses to them.  You have been given nothing but outstanding support here of the highest calibur that sincerely doubt will be matched in content anywhere, be it virtually or in person. 

People took the time to hear you out, and then offered sincere, well reasoned and sometimes borderline poetic responses.  They were usually sympathetic to your point of view, though it couldn't help but be noticed that the entire body of your posts here had virtually nothing to do with the one you supposedly "care about", but about you and how embarassing it was for you and how put upon you felt.  You're entitled to those feelings, but only to a point.  There comes a time when the correct direction of support moves from consolation to "snap out of it", and when you cavalierly advocate actions that could destroy people's lives - as you have done - then you deserve to be called out on it.

We aren't the bitter ones.  You are.  You're bitter about the embarassing AIDS-iness of your brother, and how it doesn't allow you to continue to prop up you and your family's notions of being "better than that".  You're bitter about being confronted with truth that requires real work on your part.  You're bitter about being called on the carpet for reckless statements on your part.  You're bitter that we actually did what you asked us to do by really supporting you rather than just consoling you as you whined and made the serious, personal and potentially life-threatening issues your brother is facing all about you.  Bitter, bitter, bitter...so very bitter.

So happy trails to you as you set off for greener pastures.  It shouldn't be that hard to find a spot for what you're seeking.  There are plenty of places out there where people will just nod their heads to whatever you're saying, and that's all you're really interested in anyway.

The one I'll be worrying for is your brother.

Adios.   
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:29:25 AM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Rockin

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 11:50:22 AM »
I've been giving a lot of though whether I should continue to use this forum at all. This board is supposed to be for people who are dealing with friends or family with HIV, but it's clear that this is not a good place unless you're Poz or you're only interested in hearing a particular orthodox worldview of how to deal with family and friends with HIV.  This view glosses over a lot of the HIV related drug and behavioral problems I've been trying to understand.  Walking on eggshells around bitter people is not what I need right now.  I'm going to look for support offline in a different environment.

My only suggestion would be to split the Someone I Care About board into 2 separate groups: one were poz members can participate and one where only family and friends can post.

If you read other threads on this forum from friends and relatives of HIV+, you will see that everyone is polite and educated and compassionate. No bitterness.

You are the bitter one. You are making all of this about you. Instead of saying something like "I love my brother and I will be there for him no matter what. Everyone makes mistakes and I am not in any position to judge him." you do the exact opposite and judge your brother and everyone here. You truly think you are above all this and that we are all criminals spreading this virus around.

I'm afraid you might be more in need of counseling than your brother Josh.

Offline drewm

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 01:09:09 PM »
My only suggestion would be to split the Someone I Care About board into 2 separate groups: one were poz members can participate and one where only family and friends can post.

You don't have a CLUE what it is like to have this virus. NOT A CLUE! You come on here rambling about bitterness when you are the most BITTER thing to have landed here in quite sometime (and that is saying a lot.) SHUT YOUR MOUTH and OPEN YOUR EARS and you might learn something.
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 01:25:47 PM »
You don't have a CLUE what it is like to have this virus. NOT A CLUE! You come on here rambling about bitterness when you are the most BITTER thing to have landed here in quite sometime (and that is saying a lot.) SHUT YOUR MOUTH and OPEN YOUR EARS and you might learn something.

Droodles,

I guess you showed him!

Which do you think worked better? The angry bold text or THE SHOUTY CAPITALS?

MtD

Offline drewm

  • Member
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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 02:26:26 PM »
Droodles,

I guess you showed him!

Which do you think worked better? The angry bold text or THE SHOUTY CAPITALS?

MtD

Coupled with my hot a$$ avatar, kind of hard to tell LOL!  :o
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 02:33:26 PM »
Coupled with my hot a$$ avatar, kind of hard to tell LOL!  :o

Speaking of hard to tell, that cheap and nasty biohazard tatt just above your cum latrine has made this thread into a 4 star Leatherman Carolina clusterfuck.

Don't you think using red ink would raise the tone just a bit?

MtD





« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 02:35:12 PM by Matty the Damned »

Offline drewm

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,186
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 02:34:56 PM »
Speaking of hard to tell, that cheap and nasty biohazard tatt just above your cum latrine has made this thread into a 4 star Leatherman clusterfuck.

Don't you think using red ink would raise the tone just a bit?

MtD








Now that you mention it...yes  :P
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 02:40:00 PM »

Now that you mention it...yes  :P

Mentioned be damned. :)

It's nice to see you back in a place where they have electricity!

MtD

Offline Blue75

  • Member
  • Posts: 53
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 07:34:43 PM »
Josh,  I came to this forum when my husband was diagnosed with HIV. Did you get that?   MY HUSBAND!  Imagine what went when on in my head.  These people here helped ground my emotional sanity when I thought I was going to break.

They helped me to understand what my husband is going through and facing. They are genuinely concerned about both of us. I appreciate the time these strangers took to be there for me with advice, input, knowledge, constructive criticism, care,etc.

I won't even get into the matter of how he was informed nor how he contracted it because it really just doesn't f**n matter anymore.  Get over yourself dude!

It's unfortunate about your brother and I'm very sorry but he's an adult and here's the kicker that you really need to get a grip on....so are the rest of the people he comes into contact with.  It's up to them to be look after themselves when in risky situations.

The only struggle I have is not being able to discuss his status with his kids.  He doesn't want them knowing and I'm not saying a thing.  Since you'll probably suggest they have a right to know, I'll beat you to it....NO, they don't.
Husband:
2/14/12 Tested HIV+
3/16/12: CD4-216, VL-56,500
5/4/12: Started Atripla
5/7/12: CD4-184, VL-12,000 (Taken off Atripla after 3 days, awaiting liver testing) Started antibiotics.

Offline zach

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  • Posts: 1,905
Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2014, 11:13:23 PM »
in searching which of your threads i should best do this in, i chose this one as it was the one where you most clearly took issue at what you feel is "anger" in this forum, but in all of your threads you've had this agenda of reckless disclosure at all costs. so i'm dragging this zombie back up from the dead, and challenging you to debate this

now, i am speaking to you josh, you and me buddy, lets work this out

you have issues, your family has issues, and i'm not surprised one bit your brother has drug addictions and trust issues. you need your own therapy, completely separate from your brothers issues. as far as he is concerned, i hope your brother is surrounded by love, support, and acceptance where he is now. i'm pretty sure he is getting the medical attention he will need to make it through this and stand out and proud again, because i think he probably is. and you would take that from him.


in the short history of your posts, you have shown a clear antagonist attitude towards us and an agenda of disclosure to people barely newer than you, struggling to work this out, you stick their face into an issue that can wait, or at worst is not their decision to make. and by towards us, i mean people with hiv/aids. don't mistake yourself josh. you are not one of us, but your brother is. your family rejected and abandoned him, and you have probably already betrayed his trust. i don't blame him one bit for his decisions. you want a board where the negs can speak without our voice being heard. then go create one, buy the servers, put in the time and effort. that dog won't hunt here. this is ours, you are permitted and tolerated here. more than your family tolerated your brother. so sorry his infection has been an inconvenience for you


i hope your brother pulls through. i think with medical care he will. but i predict that should he pass, your family will close his service to those that love him now, the ones that he loves. they will not allow his partner, and his circle of friends (google that josh, circle of friends) to attend his service, to mourn, to say goodbye. because we are LGBTQ, because we are positive. because we are different. because if we aren't there, maybe they can keep on ignoring the truth that their son, your brother, was a little different from what your worldview accepts. but you wont really turn them away josh. they'll wait. they'll visit his grave that night. they'll say their goodbyes to the ground. and then they'll take his name to the circle, where he will be surrounded by us, embraced by love. you should go there josh. make it a pilgrimage

you are wrong on disclosure. very wrong.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:16:13 AM by Jeff G »

Offline Joe K

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2014, 11:39:13 PM »
Zach,

I don't think Josh will be back, at least for awhile.  He's one of those posters, who loves to come into a thread, shit all over it and then goes "poof" until his next target presents itself.  I would never worry about someone like Josh, as his anger and indignation will allow no views other than his own.  We can see folks like him coming, as they have done it from the very beginning.

As angry as he is, it must really suck to be him.  All that anger and few outlets to let it flow.  Some folks you just can't help and the best thing you can do, is to limit whatever damage they may try to cause.

Joe

Offline drewm

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2014, 11:11:48 AM »
And to think I thought this thread was dead  ;)
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline wolfter

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2014, 11:15:57 AM »
And to think I thought this thread was dead  ;)

The Lazarus affect.  Josh came into another thread espousing his views and demeaning most of us here. 
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2014, 11:25:41 AM »
The Lazarus affect.  Josh came into another thread espousing his views and demeaning most of us here. 

And that makes him a demeany .

Offline wolfter

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2014, 11:37:48 AM »
LOL @ Jeff
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline zach

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2014, 11:52:39 AM »
if it was just him spewing off at us, it wouldn't bother me so much, we're all thick skinned and give better than we get. but he's pushing his disclosure views on newbie family members that are still reeling from the emotions of the initial impact. i can be demeaned, hell i've paid to have it done before. its that he's not positive, and his experience as a family member can be counted in months on my fingers. certainly not a deep well to draw from. he does not know the pain of being poz outed, or of having family judge and reject. and he talks about his rights to disclose about anyone he wants to while completely ignoring the privacy rights of the patient. that flies in my face. and its not just that he's said it once or twice, he's working an agenda in every one of his posts.

mea culpa caveat... some of my reaction to him is personal, and thats my hang up. i have twice dealt with this in my own life. once very recently, and very painfully.

personally, i don't want him to come back. i feel so badly for his brother. his family rejected him.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:04:23 PM by zach »

Offline wolfter

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2014, 12:53:24 PM »
It's a continual battle between "right to know" v's "right to privacy".  This isn't just an HIV issue, but rather a life issue.  I've been on both sides of it.

Example; soon after graduating highschool, my sister became pregnant.  She immediately approached me, upset beyond belief and horrified what my parents would think.  She made me promise not to tell them until she was ready.  I struggled with this information as I thought my parents had a definite need to know.

I remember how I grieved for her situation and worried for months.  But ultimately, I decided it was her choice to disclose and my role was to support her.  That "mistake" produced my little Josie though so I'm grateful she didn't pick one of the options she was leaning towards.

Those struggling with issues need empathy, not the other way around.  To me, that's so fundamental that I can't grasp any other version of it.
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline Joe K

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2014, 07:38:33 PM »
I believe that it is imperative that we separate the "support needs" of Josh, from his "actions" in a thread that was not about his issues.  There are only two possible responses to the question of who ultimately has the right to disclose their status and I don't think any of us would advocate for any less.  I personally believe that nobody has the right, moral or otherwise, to disclose the status of another person, without their consent.

What Josh did, was to go into a thread, by another poster, with many similarities and advocate for the OP to disclose the status of his brother, against his brothers express wishes.  Some of us, myself included, took great exception to such action, because Josh was pushing an agenda and not offering real support.

I hope Josh comes back and accepts whatever support we can offer him.

I will also be wary of anyone, who attempts to tell someone else about HIV, without being poz himself.

I will also rail against any such poster, when they advise someone to disclose the status of another, without their permission, for the selfish action that it is.

Sometimes being human can be really hard.  That does not mean you get to take a "shortcut" to ease your own anxiety by violating the rights of another person.

As I said, it is important to separate the need from the action.

Joe

Offline drewm

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2014, 08:22:14 PM »

I will also be wary of anyone, who attempts to tell someone else about HIV, without being poz himself.

Joe

Absolutely Joe! Agree 1000%
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline SurferJosh

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2014, 09:45:53 PM »
It saddens me that so many of the posters, including moderators, fail to grasp where I'm coming from.  A minor in a very difficult situation comes to this message board asking for advice, emphasizing that he doesn't feel he can cope and feels he needs to bring his family in.  He believes that his parents will be able to help, even if they haven't been supportive in the past.   From my perspective he seemed to lean towards disclosure and asking for help, so I provided him with encouragement and support for this approach.   

This particular section of the Forum is open both to PWA and family/friends.  I spoke from my own experience as someone also having a brother living with HIV, which might be different from the views of others.  I made a a responsible recommendation to involve professionals and go with his gut instinct to share the news with his family.  I regularly read these forums but haven't posted in a year.   I felt it was imperative here that I speak out because >in my opinion< the OP was being >manipulated< and unjustifiably made to feel guilty about his need to ask for help from his family. I thought the doom and gloom warnings against disclosure were not appropriate or helpful for this case.  I was genuinely shocked that others were so strongly pushing a vulnerable teenager towards their absolutist viewpoint on disclosure, without thoughtfully taking into consideration the OP’s young age, his mental health needs or his brother's health needs (which might in fact differ from the brother's privacy wishes).  I used the strong word “selfish” to describe the advice being given because I didn't see anyone looking at the problem from the perspective of this scared high school student who was thrust into an impossible dilemma. I apologize for using this word.   

I thought I did a reasonable job of pushing back against the other perspective, by explaining why in this case disclosure might be appropriate if the OP felt it might benefit his situation and work for his family.  In reading other posts, I was particularly disheartened by the vindictive aspect of the suggestion that his parents had a chance and had “blown it”.  Life just doesn't work that way.  I've learned that sometimes life is about forgiveness and giving parents a second chance and I wanted to share that perspective which was missing in this particular thread.  Because of my own perspective, I see things from the position and wellbeing of the caregiver OP, but even in his post the OP emphasized being in no position to help his brother unless he discloses.  I don't see how anyone benefits from nondisclosure here.  I thought it was cruel and irresponsible to ask the OP to suffer without the support of his family which he seemed to want and need.  Although in my personal opinion disclosure is the correct choice here, the OP should be supported to make his own decision, considering the pluses and minuses of both options.

Offline zach

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2014, 10:37:40 PM »
oh man i wish i felt stronger. i wanna go at you so bad. see, unlike you i've taken 22 pills and some sort of nasty concoction i can't pronounce today, so i'm reeling a bit. and i've spent the past couple weeks in hospital. and while i was there, my own fucking father did to me exactly what you're telling jake to do. you cannot even begin to understand how that feels. i have family that i would have died, burned, and ashes spread to the wind before i'd tell

if that young mans brother wants to stand alone, to fight on his own ground, surrounded by the people that have loved him, not rejected him. more power to him. that is his absolute right. i'll be god damned if i'm gonna support your little cause.

i'm looking at this as a brother, the eldest. and as a father, of three sons. if i've only taught them one thing in life, they will tell you this. roar loud

brothers, first and last

you betrayed that, and you would have others betray it as well. you want to see loyalty, fierce love, step to ONE of my boys, they will ALL be there. you wouldn't know about that though, your strings are tied tight while you hide under mommies skirts. your brother flies free and proud, he stepped out and cut that string.

go away, you sicken me worse than this little bug i'm beating back into place. i hope your brother stands again, i hope jakes brother stands again. we live, on our terms, because so many of you have judged us. the bitter hurt spite helps. the only way we live is to fight. pick a side.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 10:43:55 PM by zach »

Offline Joe K

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 11:11:32 PM »
Jake it's your right to disclose what's happening to anyone you choose.  Ignore the selfish advice you are hearing from others on this forum.  They are not thinking about your best needs, but are instead focused exclusively on your brother's privacy and maintaining their zealous notion that HIV should be kept secret the way cancer was in the 1950s.  You are very young and have been put in an extremely difficult position. Don't let your brother's privacy come at the expense of your own well being. This secret is a terrible burden and it might eat away at you.  I know because I have been in your situation with my own brother.  When I first joined this forum I was struggling with similar issues. I was confused and angry and I grew to resent the lying and covering up that was expected of me to hide my brother's dangerous drug use, HIV, and hospitalizations.

Your family might have a change of heart if they learn the truth. Bedside "conversions" of hardened parents are common and I think you will feel better about yourself for trying to get your parents and brother to reconcile. You might fail, but at least you will have tried. There's a weird martyr aspect to this unfair deception you're being asked to participate in... If your brother's condition worsens your family will eventually find out. They might resent you for hiding the truth, notwithstanding their past close-minded behavior. You might face anger from your brother for disclosing but unlike the melodramatic admonitions, it might not be the worst thing in the world.  Consider if this will be worse than having to deal with the situation alone.

The game changers in your situation are your age and the fact that your brother is so seriously sick.  If his HIV was responding to medicine or you were older and financially independent, then maybe keeping his secret would be appropriate.  But this situation is not something you seem able or should be expected to bear alone.  Maybe there is an adult family friend who your parents respect and trust-- someone with a social work, medical, counseling, pastoral background etc.  Speak to that person and develop a plan to jointly share the news with your parents. You know what makes the most sense in your family.  Becoming an adult means learning to deal with tough situations. Sometimes you need to do the right thing even if it means unpopular choices in the face of naysayers. Good luck and stay strong.

Josh,

The quote above is from Jake's thread and the only person I see you worrying about is you, your reaction to your brothers infection and how you think it is perfectly fine to violate the rights of others.  The majority of your post was to convince this vulnerable OP that his brothers wishes did not matter and if he needed to violate his brothers trust, well too bad.

It was not until the very end of the post that you suggest seeking outside help, after you plant the seed of betraying his brothers trust.  This is why I get frustrated about negative people giving advice to folks, regarding issues that only someone with HIV can understand.

You do not have HIV and you have no idea what it is like and even with all the other posters telling you, you do not violate the trust of someone, by revealing their status, without their consent.  This is not a debatable point, as you seem to think and you can try and rationalize all you want, but the fact remains that betraying a trust such as this, just is not done.

You like to talk about acting like an adult, but a "real" adult understands that sometimes life asks of them, things that are very hard, but they persevere as best they can, rather than betraying the trust of someone, just to make their life easier.  The trait is known by many names, such as ethics, character and integrity.

You just don't get it.

Joe

Offline drewm

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 11:22:18 PM »
You don't get it. You can't get it. Thankfully, you don't have IT. You cannot begin to fathom the issues associated with disclosure. Period.
Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX -  FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Offline wolfter

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2014, 09:16:54 AM »
It saddens me that so many of the posters, including moderators, fail to grasp where I'm coming from.  A minor in a very difficult situation comes to this message board asking for advice, emphasizing that he doesn't feel he can cope and feels he needs to bring his family in.  He believes that his parents will be able to help, even if they haven't been supportive in the past.   From my perspective he seemed to lean towards disclosure and asking for help, so I provided him with encouragement and support for this approach.   

We completely understand where you're coming from.  I lived that exact situation 28 years ago.  My baby sister was the first person I told and implored her not to share that information with anyone.  Perhaps I did place a burden upon her, but it was about ME!!!!! 

You might have wanted advice, but you already had your predetermined notions of what your actions should/would be.  You appeared to have hoped we'd simply agree with your assessment; which we didn't/don't.

I'll cut you a little slack as you probably are overwhelmed with this secret knowledge.  And guess what?  You'll discover that this occurs a lot in life.  People quickly can determine if someone is capable of being a confidant who is worthy of sharing information with. 

You don't have HIV and hopefully never will.  Therefore, you can't comprehend the issue from a positive person's mindset.  The opposite of altruism is reason. 

Take care and wishing you positive mental health.
greg
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:21:12 AM by wolfter »
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline mecch

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2014, 10:20:32 AM »
SurferJosh

Take a moment to put yourself in the shoes of the sick brother.

Do you know, for example, the world of pain and suffering, that the parents could potentially rain down on their son and in particular his boyfriend, if they got involved again?

Its a sad situation that a family blows love and support so badly.  But today is today, if the brother has decided how to cope with his life, without his parents, its his decision. How can you see it otherwise?

Its also possible, that you might be from a cultural heritage that is different than most of the people posting replies to you, I dunno. There are cultures in which the family is more important than the individual. And in which the parents must always be deferred to.  Maybe that is part of why the push back you are getting is so bewildering to you.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:26:48 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline xinyuan

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2014, 02:36:55 AM »
Josh,

Let me explain something fundamental. Your opinion flies in the face of a core principle in medical ethics. That of autonomy - the patient's very right to choose.

Not yours. Not anyone else's. Only the patient's.

Call it what you will, but this priniciple was formulated along others in response to horrors inflicted by Nazi so-called doctors. There are very few exceptions to this principle.

So sacred is it, that doctors ask family members to respect a patient's wishes in spirit, if the patient can no longer make decisions for themselves. Doctors will also ask ethics boards to overrule family members, if their choices clearly run contrary to those of the patient.

I posted this in Jake's thread, but I feel it is much better served here.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/07/opinion/la-oe-0407-silk-ring-theory-20130407

I couldn't help but find similiarities. Between you and the colleague. The one who told the author who just underwent breast cancer surgery that "This isn't just about you."


Offline Mightysure

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2014, 01:53:19 PM »
As someone who had the misfortune of receiving a false HIV diagnosis,  I can understand not wanting to disclose. The individual has to first accept it for themselves before they disclose to anyone else. Everyone's situation is different and not everyone has people in their lives who will accept them after disclosure. Also, they may not want to burden their loved ones with stress and worry about it. I know thats why I didnt disclose.

Offline Kmg1947

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2014, 11:15:17 AM »
Wow,

This thread is what is so true and evident in my son's life. I would never EVER disclose his information. Life has already been hell for him in smaller towns and cities where every one knows you. Disclosing so every one knows can mean the difference of life and death for someone.

That is REAL conversation.

K

Loving Life through the Ups & Downs.

K

Offline zach

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Re: Anger in this forum
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2014, 03:31:45 PM »
let the dead rest, this was a rough thread, no need to resurrect it

 


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