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Author Topic: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish  (Read 1282 times)

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Offline gummage

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OK. brief history.

I met my wife in 2001, I divorced her in 2005, diagnosed 2006 - back with her, 2 children, now aged 3 and 5, separated again 2009. Contact with children (every weekend for 2 days & half all holidays) no problem until last year when she started denying contact. Children uninfected.

Now, this is where it gets serious for everyone with HIV in the UK.

A finding of fact was asked for in a contact application this year by ex, that I gave her HIV - it was not stated deliberately.

The only evidence given was that she claimed to be a virgin (Lived in Bangkok and 27) - even though slept with me within days of meeting - Judge commented this was 'remarkable', she told the police she may have got it from a dentist or nail salon, and the fact that I had had 4 partners in the previous 16 years of meeting her (none infected and have 4 kids with them). I think I got it from her.

Now. Judge at finding of fact made a finding that she contracted it from me based on her claiming to be a 27 year old virgin - and my lifestyle !! And ignored her saying she may have got it somewhere else.

Basically, this is a huge ruling that someone can claim to have got HIV from someone with basically NO medical evidence !

This is now going through the court of appeal in London as to should have been impossible to find this without medical evidence or statistics. There is no evidence of any of my partners having it. There are unknown number of strains of HIV and no medical evidence was given that we even have the same strain !!!

I am not looking at accusing my ex wife - I do not know where it cane from. All I know as I did not have it in 2000 - but was hospitalised at same time as my ex in 2006.

Point is this could end up being an important ruling in the appeals court as to how much proof you need to give to show you may have infected another with no medical evidence !

Anyone care to comment ?




Offline SANJUANDUDE

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Re: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 02:36:20 PM »
I don't believe that the accusation would even make it to court, but I don't know UK law.  Wouldn't that person have to produce proof?  For starters, I don't believe that she was a virgin in Bangkok of all places at the age of 27.  Sorry, but just my opinion.   :-X   In another thread, I know of a person who lives in another state but was accused of something similar in FL.   Male to male contact, which now do not fit into the Florida law of intercourse; furthermore, this person claims to have never ever had intercourse with this other male. 

From what it sounds like to me, someone is going to have to produce evidence in your case.
10/2011-CD-4-598-Undetectable
01/2012-CD-4-758-Undetectable
04/2012-CD$-780-70 Viral Load
08-2012-CD4-846--20 viral load
02/2013-CD$ 865----20 Undetectable Viral Load
08/2013- CD4-898----<20 undetectable viral load

Offline gummage

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Re: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 03:23:39 PM »
Trust me, finding was made against me - barrister could not believe it. Judge said that she was a virgin was 'remarkable' ! (Trust me she was not).

Proof is exactly was there was not - other than verbal - which she even admitted could have come from somewhere else.

Hopefully the court of appeal with just take the view of the judge using 'speculation' which he is not allowed to do I believe.

Still October will be the testing ground - but it could have serious implications here in uk is verbal word is accepted over medical evidence

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2012, 03:51:06 PM »
I don't believe that the accusation would even make it to court, but I don't know UK law.  Wouldn't that person have to produce proof?  For starters, I don't believe that she was a virgin in Bangkok of all places at the age of 27.  Sorry, but just my opinion.   :-X   In another thread, I know of a person who lives in another state but was accused of something similar in FL.   Male to male contact, which now do not fit into the Florida law of intercourse; furthermore, this person claims to have never ever had intercourse with this other male. 

From what it sounds like to me, someone is going to have to produce evidence in your case.

IMO normal Thai girls at the age of 27 are much more likely to be virgins compared to girls in EU or the US at the same age. Thai culture is conservative when it comes to sex and I don't see it all unlikely that she actually could be virgin unless she was working in a bar, massage parlor or some other entertainment.  venue.  Not saying anything specific about the girl in this case, but more in general.

Gummage: What is her legal status in the UK? Is she a permanent resident/citizen due to the kids?

Whish you good luck in the case!
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
2013 Feb  CD4:257, 24% VL:UD -viramune/truvada
2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline gummage

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Re: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2012, 04:13:06 PM »
She has dual Nationality now - as do my kids.

I don't believe she was a virgin - people can normally tell if someone they sleep with is sexually experienced I think.

I am not saying she did not get HIV from me - I am not saying I got it from her. My argument it is impossible to tell without medical evidence of our history or out strain. A judge to say he believes she is a virgin and make a decision on that honesty - and then in the next finding make a finding that she 'cannot be trusted not to break court orders due to previously breaking them deliberately' is laughable ! (my opinion)

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2012, 04:37:20 PM »
A finding of fact was asked for in a contact application this year by ex, that I gave her HIV - it was not stated deliberately.

The only evidence given was that she claimed to be a virgin (Lived in Bangkok and 27) - even though slept with me within days of meeting - Judge commented this was 'remarkable', she told the police she may have got it from a dentist or nail salon, and the fact that I had had 4 partners in the previous 16 years of meeting her (none infected and have 4 kids with them). I think I got it from her.

Now. Judge at finding of fact made a finding that she contracted it from me based on her claiming to be a 27 year old virgin - and my lifestyle !! And ignored her saying she may have got it somewhere else.

Basically, this is a huge ruling that someone can claim to have got HIV from someone with basically NO medical evidence !

This is now going through the court of appeal in London as to should have been impossible to find this without medical evidence or statistics. There is no evidence of any of my partners having it. There are unknown number of strains of HIV and no medical evidence was given that we even have the same strain !!!


Since this is a civil matter, as contrasted with a criminal case, the 'burden of proof' for the court rests on 'a balance of probabilities'.

(For criminal proceedings the burden of proof on the prosecution is much more stringent: to prove beyond reasonable doubt)

It seems, on the face of it, that the fact-finding court has, for whatever reason, given more weight to your wife's statements than yours- and thus arrived at this conclusion. Generally speaking, some courts/judges have a pro-woman bias in custody matters, family dispute matters.

All of this is guess work of course, and a lot will depend on the peculiar facts of your case.

I guess the best thing you could do is hire a lawyer who has in-depth knowledge of family law so as to put forth a more accurate picture of the facts and circumstances surrounding yours and your wife's infection.

Based on the facts you've stated, the Court of Appeal will definitely scrutinize the matter with a more discerning eye, and should hopefully reverse the lower court's ruling.

Hope this was somewhat helpful.

Best
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Online Jeff G

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Re: Unintentional infection of HIV - fact finding made no evidence..ish
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 05:06:38 PM »
If I had an on going legal matter I was dealing with I would be very careful what I wrote about it in a public forum , just saying .   

 


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