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Author Topic: Criminalization,  (Read 8058 times)

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Offline Buckmark

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Criminalization,
« on: August 02, 2012, 11:19:07 AM »
Here's another case where someone was prosecuted and put in prison for failing to disclose he was HIV+ before sex.  The man's viral load was undetectable, he used a condom, and there was no transmission of HIV to his partner.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/health/criminalizing-hiv/index.html

Now he has to register as a sex offender, thanks to Iowa's laws.  That means no unsupervised visits with his nieces and nephews.  He can't use email, instant messaging, or social networking sites.

The comments from readers at the bottom of the story are mostly the usual "lock 'em up and throw away the key" types.  Typical.  One readers comments that If you knowingly expose someone to HIV without disclosing it, you should be put down

Ignorance and stigma are alive and well.   :(


"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Online Jeff G

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 11:32:20 AM »
My first thought was OH no not another one of these threads but after reading it I feel it needs to be shared and digested as a cautionary tale and a lesson that there is much work to be done .

If we are in danger of losing our liberty we need to be warned . That poor mans life has been ruined , and for what .       

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 11:41:18 AM »
Yes, Jeff, I hesitated before posting this because I didn't want to start another criminalization argument.  But I more and more feel as if I am losing my liberty, and that's worth talking about.  The guy's life has been ruined, for nothing.

What people should take away from this is a warning that failure to disclose can have serious legal consequences and criminal punishment.  To change that, there's a lot more work to be done.
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline LM

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 12:21:49 PM »
Sounds like a totalitarian state.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 12:24:00 PM »
Sounds like a totalitarian state.

If only it were that easy , you would only have one mind to change if that were the fact .

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 12:29:22 PM »
Sounds like a totalitarian state.

Actually the Cuban system of walling off pozzies into camps during the early 90's was more benevolent. They had free meds/care and could have sex with each other. You know, like a year long AMG.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 12:35:27 PM »
As usual, CNN is tardy to the party  ::)  But I do agree that this needs to be brought to the forefront in showing just how ridiculous these laws are.

For those of you who might be interested, here's a link to a very informative and in-depth article by our own Sean Strub about HIV criminalization.

I highly recommend that you take a look at it, if you've ever found yourself even remotely thinking about the rationale as to why someone feels it is proper to impose a prison sentence on an HIVer.

Also, take a look at the profiles of three people who found themselves facing stiff (prison) sentences, along with being branded sex offenders, due to these arcane laws on the books.

Hopefully this information will help many of you understand why disclosure, although necessary, is an entirely separate issue when it comes to whether someone should be subject to punishment under the law for (intentional) transmission of this virus we live with... as it appears that in the past these types of threads have tended to yield a general consensus that non-transmission is not the issue of concern.
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
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____________________________

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Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. 
Last regimen:  Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 01:02:48 PM »
I think people with Conservative Christian values should be required to disclose before sex . I also want a home test kit that can detect if you eat at chick-fil-a . These things scare me more than aids or herpes .

Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 01:42:30 PM »
Thanks for posting. Its good to keep this topic alive even in this forum where all the time there are people who are unaware of criminalisation laws that punish this non-crime. 
Maybe rethink the thread title to be more descriptive.  Really, a lot of people simply cannot imagine these prosecutions happen! 
How about:   HIV+ man's life destroyed for NOT transmitting HIV during safesex.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »
This makes me hopping mad. And sad.  :'(

Solo, thanks for Sean Strub's article. He also made a film on this issue in order to spur some positive move by State legislatures on the Statute books.
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 03:54:35 PM »
Even thou Im poz I kind of understand people who thinks It should be punishable for not disclosing(at least withholding when asked) status when having sex. The transmission risk might be itty pitty but still you put your partner at risk and it is irresponsible not to tell. This should thou not, in anyway, reender in time behind bars.

Class B felony? Jesus....
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
2013 Feb  CD4:257, 24% VL:UD -viramune/truvada
2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline Rockin

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 04:01:48 PM »
Sad, sad story. HIV+ who live in states that carry laws like those should just move out, period.

Offline Rockin

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 04:04:05 PM »
The transmission risk might be itty pitty but still you put your partner at risk and it is irresponsible not to tell. This should thou not, in anyway, reender in time behind bars.

What about Hep C? What about HPV? Those things can kill as well and I do not see any law about that.

Sex = risk.

Life = risk.

It's up to you to take your chances or live in a bubble.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 04:09:53 PM »
Sad, sad story. HIV+ who live in states that carry laws like those should just move out, period.

You cant expect to change things if you cut and run . I'm not running away because I'm not scared .

Some people give my crap for living where do but I have learned from the best of humanity like the civil rights icons of the past and present that refused to move away and stood their ground . I'm in no way putting myself on par with these people I'm talking about but its something I have always admired in them , the way they chose to stay instaed of running away like a coward .

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 04:19:34 PM »
Do they carry they same stigma and burden as HIV? No.

Im not a doctor but I think most would agree to HIV as the most dangerous STD,no doubt.

I see your point thou.
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
2013 Feb  CD4:257, 24% VL:UD -viramune/truvada
2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline LM

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 04:42:55 PM »
If only it were that easy , you would only have one mind to change if that were the fact .

Don't know, dictators are usually able to brainwash people into following his beliefs. But it's sad indeed. I was reading the comments at the page and it made me sad.

Actually the Cuban system of walling off pozzies into camps during the early 90's was more benevolent. They had free meds/care and could have sex with each other. You know, like a year long AMG.

LOL, sounds like fun.

Offline Rockin

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 04:51:21 PM »
You cant expect to change things if you cut and run . I'm not running away because I'm not scared .

Some people give my crap for living where do but I have learned from the best of humanity like the civil rights icons of the past and present that refused to move away and stood their ground . I'm in no way putting myself on par with these people I'm talking about but its something I have always admired in them , the way they chose to stay instaed of running away like a coward .

I respect that. Well, at the end of the day, I think anyone who's HIV+ living in a state that carries laws like those have to be extra careful about whom he or she have sex with, that's all.

Offline Rockin

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 04:52:59 PM »
Do they carry they same stigma and burden as HIV? No.

Im not a doctor but I think most would agree to HIV as the most dangerous STD,no doubt.

I see your point thou.

I said in a previous post that I understand why these laws were created in the first place but the American ones are badly written. The UK law is the perfect example on how to do it. Americans should learn from them.

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2012, 05:01:29 PM »
Yes, Jeff, I hesitated before posting this because I didn't want to start another criminalization argument.  But I more and more feel as if I am losing my liberty, and that's worth talking about.  The guy's life has been ruined, for nothing.

What people should take away from this is a warning that failure to disclose can have serious legal consequences and criminal punishment.  To change that, there's a lot more work to be done.

I can see why you felt hesitant because, as sure as the sun sets in the west, we'd see some people posting here (including pozzies) who feel that those who do not disclose should be guilted into suffering because of their non-action.


Im not a doctor but I think most would agree to HIV as the most dangerous STD,no doubt.

Even thou Im poz I kind of understand people who thinks It should be punishable for not disclosing(at least withholding when asked) status when having sex. The transmission risk might be itty pitty but still you put your partner at risk and it is irresponsible not to tell. This should thou not, in anyway, reender in time behind bars.

Class B felony? Jesus....
__________________________________________________________________

I respect that. Well, at the end of the day, I think anyone who's HIV+ living in a state that carries laws like those have to be extra careful about whom he or she have sex with, that's all.

There are no protections when it comes to ridiculous laws such as hiv-criminalization ones.  A poz person could have a sworn notarized affidavit signed and admitted into evidence that he/she disclosed to a partner and all it would take is one person who believes that the pozzie was a walking transmitter of death who was deliberately infecting others -- and I guarantee the jury would find some way to lock the pozzie up in the name of prevention.

Also, who's to say that a pozzie takes every precaution possible with a partner and then that partner gets pissed off and then brings charges against the pozzie, saying they never took precautions nor disclosed.  It's not such a clearcut black and white issue -- especially since the laws on the books have not kept up with the times.

Added separator to address Rockin's comment as it is a completely different issue.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 05:36:32 PM by Solo_LTSurvivor »
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. 
Last regimen:  Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2012, 11:55:42 PM »
Even thou Im poz I kind of understand people who thinks It should be punishable for not disclosing(at least withholding when asked) status when having sex. The transmission risk might be itty pitty but still you put your partner at risk and it is irresponsible not to tell. This should thou not, in anyway, reender in time behind bars.

Class B felony? Jesus....



You probably understand such views because you, like me, were once negative and used to think likewise (Please note: I’m not passing a snide remark but stating a likely reality).

I think you're relatively recently diagnosed. Give it some time and you'll notice the utter absurdity and injustice in incarcerating pozzies for non-disclosure (1) in the absence of malicious intent, (2) when a condom was properly used and (3) when infection did not occur.

For a moment let’s leave aside the ethicality of it. If one correctly uses a condom for penetrative sex (and/or takes other safety measures such as: engaging in safer sexual activities like oral sex, mutual masturbation, kissing et al, has an undetectable VL, etc) then technically, you’re not putting your partner at risk- in fact you’re protecting your partner.  (Please note: The risk of transmission is ‘exactly the same’ as some one who discloses and eventually takes these exact measures.)

The alarming number of ‘miscarriages of justice’ (and this thread is just one example) that arise from targeting the wrong demographic (those who take measures to stop onward transmission even though they don’t disclose) is not only shocking but totally counterproductive from a public health standpoint.

It is common knowledge that the overwhelming vast majority of infections occur where the pozzie is unaware of his health status and unwittingly passes on HIV; and not from people who’re aware and take measures to cut the possibility of onward infection. The possibility of infection arises when one foregoes condom use, regardless of what your partner discloses or not about his/her health, hence the correct message that needs to be sent out is: "Wrap up! Don’t demonize and play the victim".  Moreover, these laws drive stigma against ALL pozzies, painting us as disease spreading monsters; they also instil fear in the general population to test themselves, which only fuels the epidemic instead of containing it.

Do they carry they same stigma and burden as HIV? No.

Im not a doctor but I think most would agree to HIV as the most dangerous STD,no doubt.


I see your point thou.

Most of the people who don’t disclose cite fear of rejection due to HIV stigma as the primary reason for non-disclosure. Don’t you find it somewhat paradoxical, not to mention ironic, that these HIV criminalization statutes are perhaps the most major drivers of stigma against ALL poz people? 

Stigma is an invention of humans. A virus knows nothing of it. Supporting these laws heightens stigma against ALL pozzies because they target the wrong demographic- and untested poz people (who’re afraid to test) continue spreading the virus (the source of virtually all infections).

As for HIV being the most dangerous STD, it is noteworhty that millions die of cervical cancer (caused by HPV infection). HBV infection is also severely debilitating. Why aren’t carriers of those pathogens demonized and tossed into jail for passing on potentially life threatening diseases? Why single out HIV and create a viral subclass of humans? Because HPV, unlike HIV, is ubiquitous and not traditionally associated with out-law sexual minorities. That's why.

And that's just the STDs. Millions die from a range of infectious diseases from common flu to TB. Never heard of them being subjected to any criminal proceedings.

Edited to fix typo and insert last line
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 01:33:09 AM by spacebarsux »
Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Pilot

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 01:27:47 AM »
Has anyone read where some one was falsely charged and then proven innocent.  How would you prove that you did not have sex with someone ?  Piss off the wrong person who knows your poz and who knows what a judge would believe.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 07:50:06 AM »
Do they carry they same stigma and burden as HIV? No.

Im not a doctor but I think most would agree to HIV as the most dangerous STD,no doubt.

I see your point thou.

Are you kidding me??  Since when do we jail people because they passed on "stigma"?? 
There are a number of STDs that can lead to death -- how is one of these "more dangerous"?  Dead is dead.  Oh and it's far more likely for someone to contract and die from the influenza virus, but that ain't going to land anyone in jail.

This man's life was ruined for no reason -- the other person had no physical harm and his "mental anguish", while real, was due to ignorance.
Anyway -- I know I'm wasting my breathe on you, as all this has been stated elsewhere on these forums.

You are free to your opinions and ignorance.  I hope one day you change them both.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline Common_ground

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 08:56:58 AM »
Are you kidding me??  Since when do we jail people because they passed on "stigma"?? 
There are a number of STDs that can lead to death -- how is one of these "more dangerous"?  Dead is dead.  Oh and it's far more likely for someone to contract and die from the influenza virus, but that ain't going to land anyone in jail.

This man's life was ruined for no reason -- the other person had no physical harm and his "mental anguish", while real, was due to ignorance.
Anyway -- I know I'm wasting my breathe on you, as all this has been stated elsewhere on these forums.

You are free to your opinions and ignorance.  I hope one day you change them both.

Mike

Take a step back and look at the whole picture, both from a public and individual health perspective. The stigma isn't there because the people rolled a dice and HIV accidentally came up. The stigma is there because HIV is a 100% fatal disease, influenza is not, neither is HPV, herpes, gonorrhea, chlamydia etc and for these there are relatively simple procedures  in terms of treatment or cure.

Read my previous post were I also question the harsh sentence.

Yes, thankfully I am entitled to have my own opinion.
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
2013 Feb  CD4:257, 24% VL:UD -viramune/truvada
2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2012, 09:25:32 AM »
Take a step back and look at the whole picture, both from a public and individual health perspective. The stigma isn't there because the people rolled a dice and HIV accidentally came up. The stigma is there because HIV is a 100% fatal disease, influenza is not, neither is HPV, herpes, gonorrhea, chlamydia etc and for these there are relatively simple procedures  in terms of treatment or cure.

Read my previous post were I also question the harsh sentence.

Yes, thankfully I am entitled to have my own opinion.

I disagree. Firmly. HIV is stigmatized because it is a sexually transmitted, previously no effective treatment therefor, presently incurable illness.

It is stigmatized because as fate decided, for a variety of reasons, it has a longstanding association with society’s undesirables- namely homosexual men, injecting drug users and commercial sex workers.

Also, please define “100% fatal disease.” This is classic facile sloganeering. It’s this kind of rhetoric that is used to whip up sentiment against poz people as some sort of evil vampires.

Because, if you think about it: Millions do die of cancers cause by HPV (It is also 100% fatal, is it not?) Same goes for TB, influenza, common cold and many other infectious diseases, all of which are FAR easier to transmit than HIV.

More pertinently, I fail to see what you mean by ‘fatal’ since today, a HPV-infected woman diagnosed with advanced cervical cancer has a far more fatal prognosis than someone detected with early HIV infection.

It’s all a load of prejudice, not in the least substantiated in fact or science.

You are entitled to your opinion; just not to your version of facts.

Infected-  2005 or early 2006; Diagnosed- Jan 28th, 2011; Feb '11- CD4 754 @34%, VL- 39K; July '11- CD4 907@26%,  VL-81K; Feb '12- CD4 713 @31%, VL- 41K, Nov '12- CD4- 827@31%

Offline Common_ground

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2012, 09:43:39 AM »
I disagree. Firmly. HIV is stigmatized because it is a sexually transmitted, previously no effective treatment therefor, presently incurable illness.

It is stigmatized because as fate decided, for a variety of reasons, it has a longstanding association with society’s undesirables- namely homosexual men, injecting drug users and commercial sex workers.

Also, please define “100% fatal disease.” This is classic facile sloganeering. It’s this kind of rhetoric that is used to whip up sentiment against poz people as some sort of evil vampires.

Because, if you think about it: Millions do die of cancers cause by HPV (It is also 100% fatal, is it not?) Same goes for TB, influenza, common cold and many other infectious diseases, all of which are FAR easier to transmit than HIV.

More pertinently, I fail to see what you mean by ‘fatal’ since today, a HPV-infected woman diagnosed with advanced cervical cancer has a far more fatal prognosis than someone detected with early HIV infection.

It’s all a load of prejudice, not in the least substantiated in fact or science.

You are entitled to your opinion; just not to your version of facts.

HPV and Anal cancer are not the same, your jumping conclusions in your discussion, you can carry HPV through your whole life and many do, without symptoms or to develop cancer. Just as people say smoking kills, does it really? No but it CAN lead to cancer, which CAN kill you. If going by your logic everything in life is lethal. Which is true in one sense, but lets not get to philosophical here.

I understand your point with the baggage HIV carries, but I do believe that the stigma is rooted in fear, and the fear itself is rooted in the severity of this disease, not from the people infected per se.

On a side note: Lets keep the discussion civilized and nice, your doing a good job spacebarsux :) and I hope we can continue share and talk about our different views without nasties.
2011 May - Neg.
2012 June CD4:205, 16% VL:2676 Start Truvada/Stocrin
2012 July  CD4:234, 18% VL:88
2012 Sep  CD4:238, 17% VL:UD
2013 Feb  CD4:257, 24% VL:UD -viramune/truvada
2013 May CD4:276, 26% VL:UD

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2012, 09:58:34 AM »
HPV and Anal cancer are not the same, your jumping conclusions in your discussion, you can carry HPV through your whole life and many do, without symptoms or to develop cancer. Just as people say smoking kills, does it really? No but it CAN lead to cancer, which CAN kill you. If going by your logic everything in life is lethal. Which is true in one sense, but lets not get to philosophical here.

I am not get philosophical. Indeed, I am getting factual.

Why is it fair to imprison people for nondisclosure even when no infection results but to allow people who transmit ALL OTHER pathogens to walk scot free, even if the infected person dies as a result ?

Is it fair for a man to smoke like a chimney with impunity in the presence of his wife with disregard to increasing the risk of her developing cancer later on due to second hand smoke but to throw a poz person in jail because he failed to disclose despite him having used a condom and in spite of the fact that no transmission occurred?

That is at the crux of it.

If you say that many carry HPV without it turning lethal, the same argument holds true for many HIV+ people.

Ultimately it boils down to prejudice. And since I can't better it, I am simply reproducing Sean Strub's words on this forum a while back:

"Perhaps the biggest contributor to stigma are these HIV criminalization statutes.  There's no more extreme manifestation of stigma than when it is perpetrated by the government (think apartheid, Jim Crow laws, internment of Japanese, etc.)  HIV criminalization is highly discriminatory and, in fact, we are creating a viral subclass that could be the very beginning of an effort to divide and manipulate society based on the viruses, or other pathogens, some of us carry.

There are other sexually transmitted diseases, including some acquired more easily than HIV, which can make a person very ill and result in death.  4,000 women in the US were killed last year by cervical cancer.  More than 99% of them got the cancer from human papilloma virus:  genital warts  A huge percentage of the anal-genital cancers are caused by HPV, including almost all of the rectal cancers gay men get.

But people with HPV aren't prosecuted and there aren't HPV-specific statutes outlawing the failure to disclose.  That's because HPV isn't associated with outlaw sexualities, injection drug users or minority groups.  HIV is.  HPV is also carried at one point by more than 65% of the sexually active adult population."
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2012, 10:12:42 AM »
I simply fail to see how anyone could have any logical basis to argue for the existence of these laws . The man was in initially given a 25 year sentence , that's more than most people get for attempted murder or manslaughter . Having to register as a sex offender is a life sentence on its own , a horrible fate under these circumstances and hardly a merciful reduction in sentencing by the judge .


Offline Common_ground

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2012, 10:19:14 AM »
spacebarsux:
I understand and respect your point of view but I dont agree with how you interpret the facts, neither do I agree with Sean´s HPV vs. HIV comparison.

Its not a matter of right or wrong here, we just have different opinions in this matter.

jg1962:
Agreed.

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Offline drewm

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2012, 11:07:08 AM »
The United States (50 states and federal government) have more laws that criminalize "sex" then any other country on earth. That is not a comment about the merits of some laws but rather a matter of fact. Just to be sure, we have an expanded sex offender registry that is bloated to almost a million people. People who cannot have unsupervised visits with their own children, nieces and nephews. People who cannot live near a park or a school and who cannot find a job.

In our penchant to have the government "protect us," we have created a totalitarian police state when it comes to anything and everything with the word "sex" attached to it.
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Offline Rockin

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2012, 12:52:01 PM »
The United States (50 states and federal government) have more laws that criminalize "sex" then any other country on earth. That is not a comment about the merits of some laws but rather a matter of fact. Just to be sure, we have an expanded sex offender registry that is bloated to almost a million people. People who cannot have unsupervised visits with their own children, nieces and nephews. People who cannot live near a park or a school and who cannot find a job.

In our penchant to have the government "protect us," we have created a totalitarian police state when it comes to anything and everything with the word "sex" attached to it.

I blame that on religion. America and religion (by that I mean "Christians" and Evangelists) have a deep, twisted love affair with each other and unfortunately religion gets in the way of everything. No wonder every single music artist out there when receive an award start by saying "First of all I wanna thank God"...

The whole Chick-Fil-A controversy is another example of that. Have you guys watched the video on youtube where a bunch of people inside a Chick-Fil-A start singing God Bless America spontaneously? It's creepy as hell.

Seems I'm getting off the subject here but I'm not. Even though, theoretically, State and Church are separate entities there, the church still heavily influences everything in America and therefore there are heinous laws like that.

Wanna be creeped out even more and lose a little bit of faith in humanity? Check this out: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-least-subtle-tweets-from-chick-fil-a-appreciat

Offline bocker3

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2012, 05:37:45 PM »
spacebarsux:
I understand and respect your point of view but I dont agree with how you interpret the facts, neither do I agree with Sean´s HPV vs. HIV comparison.

Its not a matter of right or wrong here, we just have different opinions in this matter.

jg1962:
Agreed.

How facile for you to simply say you disagree -- you don't seem to have any rebuttal to his facts (and there are facts there, not just interpretations).
To single out ONE disease as worthy of criminalization (even without any actual transmission) is indefensible.  More people die from actual transmission of other viruses than will ever do so from the situations these laws cover.  They get to go around without fear of being jailed, while we do.

Please DO NOT confuse disdain for criminalisation with disclosure.  I, personally, believe he should have disclosed, but he doesn't deserve jail and being tagged a sex offender for not doing so (especially given the FACTS that he took every precaution to not transmit).

So, if you wish to debate, let's debate.  However you need to address the issues raised by the other side, as we have tried to address those raised by you.

Do you really believe that stigma should drive prison time?  Clearly, you don't believe it's do to possible fatalities, because you don't seem to advocate criminalising other potentially fatal diseases.  Finally -- how can you defend these laws when they do NOT REQUIRE TRANSMISSION to occur???

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Offline Since2005

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2012, 11:16:57 PM »
Even thou Im poz I kind of understand people who thinks It should be punishable for not disclosing(at least withholding when asked) status when having sex. The transmission risk might be itty pitty but still you put your partner at risk and it is irresponsible not to tell. This should thou not, in anyway, reender in time behind bars.

Class B felony? Jesus....

Its called shared responsibility buddy, I meant "shared"

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2012, 11:19:44 PM »
spacebarsux:
I understand and respect your point of view but I dont agree with how you interpret the facts, neither do I agree with Sean´s HPV vs. HIV comparison.

Its not a matter of right or wrong here, we just have different opinions in this matter.

jg1962:
Agreed.


I simply fail to see how anyone could have any logical basis to argue for the existence of these laws . The man was in initially given a 25 year sentence , that's more than most people get for attempted murder or manslaughter . Having to register as a sex offender is a life sentence on its own , a horrible fate under these circumstances and hardly a merciful reduction in sentencing by the judge .


You have a differing opinion to mine but you agree with jg? So are you now against criminalization for non-disclosure? I'm confused.
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Offline elf

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2012, 08:49:02 PM »
I can't see how any HIV+ person can support criminalization of HIV non-disclosure.
It's like testifying against yourself, in a court case.  :o

I like the Belgian approach on these things:

Quote
Sensoa, the Flemish service and expertise in sexual health, is concerned about the matter in Huy. "We are not asking for criminal prosecutions," said spokesman Boris Cruyssaert. "In neighboring countries, we see that it is counterproductive. It just makes the taboo, because nobody dares to know if they are infected."

"That does not mean that HIV patients should not share responsibility [for HIV prevention]," says Cruyssaert. "Only in the case of intentional transmission [should the criminal law be used]. "

Sensoa tries to reach other cultures, with accessible information [about HIV] but that is not easy. Since 2009, in an opinion by the National Council of the Order of Physicians, a doctor can, in exceptional cases, inform the partner of an HIV patient [if there is a belief of exceptional risk of harm].

http://criminalhivtransmission.blogspot.com/search/label/Belgium

The most severe non-disclosure laws are in some US states,
in Canada, as well as in Scandinavia (Sweden and Norway).

In the UK, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Croatia the disclosure is not mandatory if a condom is used (and the criminal law has been used only in a few cases
when the intentional M-to-F transmission was involved).

PS
When I was HIV-, I didn't expect anyone to ''disclose'', it's a personal ''secret'' of another person, just like the credit card number...I didn't get HIV because the partner didn't disclose, but because a condom was not used!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 09:02:04 PM by elf »

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »
Have you guys watched the video on youtube where a bunch of people inside a Chick-Fil-A start singing God Bless America spontaneously? It's creepy as hell.

Yeah... I know -- it's like the only place does that amirite?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khN3e4yH65Q
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 09:03:08 PM by Miss Philicia »
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Offline leatherman

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2012, 09:50:54 PM »
Have you guys watched the video on youtube where a bunch of people inside a Chick-Fil-A start singing God Bless America spontaneously? It's creepy as hell.
Eek! That was in North Carolina (Knightsdale, outside of Raleigh)
http://youtu.be/nF00qCIGe04

probably some of the same people that helped enshrine that anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment back in May. (hey! we were just talking about that in another thread. LOL)

how can you defend these laws when they do NOT REQUIRE TRANSMISSION to occur???
exactly.! :) without transmission there was no harm, so how can there be a crime in the consensual act of having sex? Of course, if someone chooses to have non-protected sex, shouldn't it be THEIR responsibility for whatever STD they might get?
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Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2012, 10:52:49 PM »
I can't see how any HIV+ person can support criminalization of HIV non-disclosure.
It's like testifying against yourself, in a court case.  :o

Maybe some HIV+ people feel that getting HIV is the worst thing that has ever happened in their lives.  So maybe they think non-disclosure laws are protective of the HIV- population. 

Another possible explanation might be HIV+ people who really think they got HIV through the lies or manipulations of others.  Who feel like victims of bad, or immoral, behavior of HIV+ people. So, for them, it seems logical to punish bad behavior. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline spacebarsux

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2012, 12:30:17 AM »
Maybe some HIV+ people feel that getting HIV is the worst thing that has ever happened in their lives.  So maybe they think non-disclosure laws are protective of the HIV- population. 

Another possible explanation might be HIV+ people who really think they got HIV through the lies or manipulations of others.  Who feel like victims of bad, or immoral, behavior of HIV+ people. So, for them, it seems logical to punish bad behavior.

Or maybe they like stewing in their melancholic juice, feel self-righteous in playing the victim card, refuse to own up to their own role in their infection; they must also be quite dim to not realise that it isn't disclosure (or the lack thereof), but the lack of a condom that got them infected.

In their eyes, we must all approximate to the feral vampires who infected them, since, of course, they are far superior to all of society's deviants.
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2012, 12:44:45 AM »
Or maybe they like stewing in their melancholic juice, feel self-righteous in playing the victim card, refuse to own up to their own role in their infection; they must also be quite dim to not realise that it isn't disclosure (or the lack thereof), but the lack of a condom that got them infected.

In their eyes, we must all approximate to the feral vampires who infected them, since, of course, they are far superior to all of society's deviants.

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Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2012, 07:35:52 AM »
While it is interesting to discuss how HIV+ people think and feel about these asinine laws, it is worth remembering the laws were created by HIV- people and are the result of fear, hatred, ignorance and self-righteousness.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline randym431

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2012, 08:10:36 AM »
I question the intent of the guy that brought the charges.
Seems he may have hopes of some financial resolution?
If people have unsafe sex together, they should always just assume
one or both are positive. Thats why they call it unsafe sex.
And the same rule goes when having safe sex. Assume your partner is positive.

The high court will most likely toss this out for so many various reasons.

This 22 year old has an axe to grind. Or I don't know what?
I think you'd have to meet this 22 year old kid and see what kind of a guy he is.
He is probably either an opportunist, or extremely paranoid. Or Both.

There are a lot of strange people out there. Some might file a lawsuit, some might fall hopelessly in love with you and become your nightmare of a stalker, and some might turn around after having sex and stab you to death simply because they can not accept their own homosexually or what just happened.

I think this 22 year old definitely falls in the category of serious mental instability.

So I guess casual sex is not the best idea in todays world.
At least date a few times, have lunch, talk on the phone, before jumping into the sack.
At least get an idea of the mental state of the other guy.

Sounds to me like this 22 year old is a real winner.
Someone to avoid, period.

Ps. This is like getting in a car wreck, your fault, and then charged with intent to murder. Intent to murder simply because you have a automobile that could be used as a lethal weapon, if you wanted to do so. And its assumed you had the intention to murder.

Can you imagine every car accident having the driver at fault tossed in prison automatically. Charged with intent to kill. And the charged then has to prove it was in fact an accident.

Yeah, there are so many reasons this will get tossed out.
That is, if his lawyer has the necessary smarts.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 08:18:14 AM by randym431 »

Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2012, 08:19:41 AM »
OH, and by the way, that CNN article does NOT clarify the logical difference between non-disclosure+safesex+NO transmission (e.g. NO RECKLESSNESS), to reckless endangerment, to actual transmission. (all different, but all criminalised)  Its all heaped together into a steaming soup and I bet most people do not have the clarity to understand the nuances of what is going on.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 08:21:41 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline bocker3

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2012, 09:12:51 AM »
While it is interesting to discuss how HIV+ people think and feel about these asinine laws, it is worth remembering the laws were created by HIV- people and are the result of fear, hatred, ignorance and self-righteousness.

I wouldn't say "interesting", when discussing how a poz person agrees with these laws -- I would say "infuriating".  Fear and a lack of taking responsibility is far from interesting to me.
However, how do you know that HIV- people created these laws?   We see enough examples of "straight" lawmakers advocating anti-gay laws who end up being discovered with their docks in other men. 
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Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2012, 10:25:14 AM »
Look, the neggies think that you pozzes either 1) should be celibate or 2) have sex with other pozzies. If you don't do either of those two things then, in their eyes, YOU ARE AN AIDS MONSTER.

ps: this applies to the 18-39 set of queers. The older ones that lived through the high point of the AIDS epidemic in the mid-80's/mid-90's don't five a fuck.
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Offline SANJUANDUDE

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2012, 11:03:21 AM »
I would have be intimate with another person that is poz and for this reason.  People should not have to run around blabbing about their personal health records to someone they may very well hardly know.  Second of all, once that information about health is given to someone else, other than a medical professional, who knows where it will go from there.   I just don't do it, do not need the headaches.
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Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2012, 11:57:46 AM »
I would have be intimate with another person that is poz and for this reason.  People should not have to run around blabbing about their personal health records to someone they may very well hardly know.  Second of all, once that information about health is given to someone else, other than a medical professional, who knows where it will go from there.   I just don't do it, do not need the headaches.
You realise this thread is about what happens to people who screw in states or nations in which non-disclosure is a crime.
The entire point of the thread is to get knowledge out there that these LOCATIONS AND LAWS exist. 

When people come into these criminalisation threads and relate their personal beliefs and practices with NO reference to the laws in their location - it just ends up confusing the whole issue. 

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline SANJUANDUDE

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2012, 12:00:11 PM »
I question the intent of the guy that brought the charges.
Seems he may have hopes of some financial resolution?
If people have unsafe sex together, they should always just assume
one or both are positive. Thats why they call it unsafe sex.
And the same rule goes when having safe sex. Assume your partner is positive.








I was thinking the same thing about the financial reward this person may be hoping for.  Sadly and foolishly, when I was younger, I worked in a gay bar, and OMG the things that I saw go on that I wish I wouldn't have.  Not to mention, the gay bathhouse stories people would come to tell me some nights.  It seems that it is wise to assume your partner is + if you do not know him; however, just as important protect yourself.   
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Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2012, 12:05:54 PM »
http://www.gnpplus.net/criminalisation/new/

Just check out the laws in place where you are screwing.  The point of the story for that guy in the article is that HE got royally screwed by the laws in place.  It doesn't matter his motivations, morality.  My own motivations, morality and beliefs have NO BEARING on his destroyed life, whatsoever. 

The point is - if you are unaware that such laws exist, get it through your head they do.  And accept that the laws have nothing to do with logic, what is right, etc. etc. 

This happens in so many of these threads.  People can't wrap their heads around the fact that such BAD laws exist.  Feeling like they have to limit all the cognitive dissonance, people here recount what they do in their own locations, their own beliefs and practices, and yada yada yada.  Which means jack shit to those up shit creek in one of the locations WITH such BAD laws. 

Or now the idea that the 22 yo is some deranged hussy.  You all realise in some of these places you can be prosecuted even WITHOUT a complainant, a so called victim.  And that 22 yo is just a dumb shit, like million other aids haters, aids fears, who pursued his case because he COULD, because of the bad laws in place in his location.   

His story is pure ignorant "boiler plate".  Heard it before in such legal cases. His supposed 6 months of psychological agony.  When a freaking condom was used.  Any doctor should have informed him he was having his own freak out. 

The point being, the HIV- world is filled with dumb-asses but they get to persecute HIV+ people through dumb ass laws.  Remove the laws, and we could kind of ignore these jerks.

Read this article on the sister site by a norwegian guy who explains what he is facing in Norway with their dumb laws.  And he is being prosecuted for sex with another HIV+ guy!!!!!!!

http://blogs.poz.com/louisgay/2012/06/a_clarification_befo.html

Switzerland is halfway through the process of removing its hideous criminalisation laws. But its not a done deal yet.

Everyone really should be encouraged to know the laws applicable to where they are screwing.  Its completely useless and too late to argue good moral character or behavior, or the illogic of the laws, if they are in place and you on trial. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 02:19:03 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline mecch

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2012, 02:23:19 PM »
  I just don't do it, do not need the headaches.

My reaction being to comments like this.  Only people in places without the laws can afford this kind of reckless attention to one's own needs and beliefs.  That's all. But its a point that seems lost on some people.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline SANJUANDUDE

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Re: Criminalization,
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2012, 08:54:12 AM »
Has anyone read where some one was falsely charged and then proven innocent.  How would you prove that you did not have sex with someone ?  Piss off the wrong person who knows your poz and who knows what a judge would believe.

What happens in the bedroom is usually between two people; therefore, if someone were to say, "I had sex with -----, but the other one being accused says, "no I didn't."  I would think that it comes to one word against the other.

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.southfloridagaynews.com/news/local-news/5552-same-sex-couples-saved-from-hiv-disclosure-laws.html
10/2011-CD-4-598-Undetectable
01/2012-CD-4-758-Undetectable
04/2012-CD$-780-70 Viral Load
08-2012-CD4-846--20 viral load
02/2013-CD$ 865----20 Undetectable Viral Load
08/2013- CD4-898----<20 undetectable viral load

 


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