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Author Topic: Being gay and christian.  (Read 3813 times)

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Offline DecoyBarrier

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Being gay and christian.
« on: July 26, 2012, 03:12:37 AM »
Hi!

I am new on the forums and I am a gay boy. I am 20 years old and I am religious.
My attraction towards men manifested when I was 8 years old, but I didn't find it strange or unnatural in any way. Later, when I was 16 years old I realized that I truly am gay. I was attended to a catholic school. There were only men. Priests and monks were teaching us, and every class-mate was a boy.

It was terrible to realize that according to the Cathloic Church's interpretation of the Bible I am doomed to a loveless life, otherwise I will burn on hell for eternity.

I tried to date girls. I could never muster the confidence to walk up to any of them, so I miserably failed at that point.
I spent many nights, crying and praying. I wanted to be "normal". I wanted to be "healed".
It took me 2 and a half years to accept what I am, and I came to realize, that even as a gay person, I still have the potential to be a good person.

I was never willing and still am not willing to part ways with my religion. It gave me power to overcome many challanges, and I am grateful for that, though my faith has been modified over the years. The catholic church would consider me a heretic I believe.

I found that me, being a gay man, had a serious conflict with my religion.
I was meditating, thinking about this a lot and in the end I came to a simple solution.

If God is love, and it is taught that he /she is, than loving another man can be no sin, for God is clean of all sins.

What do you think about this?
Could you give me some advice in order so I can accept myself more?
Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance and sorry if I offended.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 10:39:01 AM »
There are other denominations that are accepting to being gay. Why don't you consider attending an Episcopal congregation?

edit: I see from one of your old posts that you live in Hungary, so obviously there aren't Episcopal churches there. There must be something though I guess it depends on whether or not you live in a city with diverse types of churches.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 10:41:05 AM by Miss Philicia »
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Online Jeff G

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 11:34:57 AM »
I wish you the best in finding peace of mind . Please try to remember that you are as good man as any other and deserve to love yourself and others as you are . If you do this , as you mature your opinion of yourself will be one of comfort .   

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 04:24:56 PM »
I was taught that being a Christian was about a personal relationship with Jesus, not with religion. According to te Bible, Jesus never spoke about homosexuals. I am unable to accept thatGod would reject a person because he/she is gay..Just be yourself. I am not saying hide, but is there really any honest reason to tell others you are gay? I mean other than family and close friends.
  As i see it, ones sexual preference is a highly personal matter. Not everyone you meet needs that information. I say go to Church if you wish, and follow your faith and your heart.
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Offline leatherman

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 04:38:40 PM »
I say go to Church if you wish, and follow your faith and your heart.
however, if you go to a church that preaches against homosexuality then you are in essence supporting them, condoning their principles, and helping them in projecting their hatred into the world. Not only would that not be good for your own self-interest; but you, through the works of that church and words of the pastor, would be discriminating against homosexuals.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline DecoyBarrier

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 03:59:28 AM »
Where I live you can find only a few sects, nothing more. I rarely go to the church, because I can't stand the hypocracy that I see. I pray alone in my room. The other reason why I avoid the church because it boils my blood when they come up with their judgamental arrogant attitude.

I try to follow my heart and be a good person, but  I grew bitter and it turns me into a more agressive and cold person day by day.  It is hard to be nice to people.

There is a guy on a certain match-making site who I've been talking with and he was really nice and helpful, and it inspired me to be more helpful and open, but it didn't get much easier.

Everything was much simpler and easier to do, especially being "good" and doing the right thing when I didn't realize certain things.

Just be yourself. I am not saying hide, but is there really any honest reason to tell others you are gay? I mean other than family and close friends.

I am being myself and only a very few people ever did ask me if I was gay, but my answer was yes to them. Luckily, it didn't bring any harm on me yet.
My family pretty much hates me for being gay. My mother has gone as fas as telling that I should either change or pack my stuff and move out. I got a job so im planning to do the latter. My parents think everything is "allright" now and they keep pretending that I'm heterosexual.

I wish you the best in finding peace of mind . Please try to remember that you are as good man as any other and deserve to love yourself and others as you are . If you do this , as you mature your opinion of yourself will be one of comfort .   

Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate them.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 10:14:17 AM »
I was taught that being a Christian was about a personal relationship with Jesus, not with religion. According to te Bible, Jesus never spoke about homosexuals. I am unable to accept thatGod would reject a person because he/she is gay..Just be yourself. I am not saying hide, but is there really any honest reason to tell others you are gay? I mean other than family and close friends.
  As i see it, ones sexual preference is a highly personal matter. Not everyone you meet needs that information. I say go to Church if you wish, and follow your faith and your heart.

So when the church has social events the gays should just stfu, stay in the closet and ride at the back of the bus (read: different rules for heterosexuals)? No wonder Longtime Companion's "gay lifestyle" (your words) scenes disturbed you.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 01:37:31 PM »
I just go by these few words:

The greatest thing you can ever learn is to love and be love in return...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lalqMLxENUY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekCvBztYs_A
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:39:07 PM by red_Dragon888 »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline mecch

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 05:45:19 PM »
Why don't you take whats good about your church and ignore the bad stuff?  You can have your own relationship with god, your own way of believing, as well, and it sounds like you are finding that now.
You know, Rome and the Vatican say one thing, but it hardly defines the way people around the world relate to the Church.  There are very liberal nuns for example in the USA who don't follow everything the Vatican says.  Your experience of the Church is just relative to the way it is in your diocese, parish, and city.

Just curious, by the way, why you are looking for dialogue on such topics in a forum for HIV+ people.....
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline leatherman

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 06:23:15 PM »
Why don't you take whats good about your church and ignore the bad stuff?
kinda like attending a KKK meeting without stringing anyone up from a tree, huh? ;) :o

The cognitive dissonance to remain in a sect/cult that attacks/belittles you is very destructive. IMHO staying in a church, that doesn't approve of you in the first place, and supporting them, allows them to continue destroying your life - and the life of others.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Theyer

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 06:01:13 AM »
There are Gay Catholic groups in the States and UK.

I had a great time in Rome , long post sex religious discussions with Men attending the seminaries, ah I wonder what they are doing now probably members off there congregations.

Your English is good why don,t you consider the rest off the world when you think about moving?

Best wishes
mhtv
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline wolfter

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 08:18:39 AM »
I've wanted to reply and send support your way but the appropriate words elude me.
I could easily have written this exact post 20+ years ago and I TOTALLY understand the internal demons you're battling.  Being taught that we are all cursed with demons that we must conquer is a difficult battle when it's a core aspect of your being.  It'd be just as difficult to pray away the fact that I had blue eyes. 

I'll refrain from giving specific advice to overcome this as it's very personal to each of us.  It's not an easy journey to reach, but nothing in life worthwhile is.  I eventually achieved that level of contentment with myself and my spirituality.  It'll be a difficult struggle, but I have the confidence you'll reach that balance.

Take care and continue to reflect and seek input.

Wolfie

Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline DecoyBarrier

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 11:02:35 AM »

Just curious, by the way, why you are looking for dialogue on such topics in a forum for HIV+ people.....

I follow the forums for a long time and I've seen there are gay men here who might understand what I am going through right now. There are no such other forums I know of, and I also like the "atmosphere" here.

And it is also the Off-Topic Section, so discussion is free. I am also happy to give support to anyone :)


Your English is good why don,t you consider the rest off the world when you think about moving?


I do. I think about Australia or Canada a lot. I'm working and save some money for that, but for the next 5 years I have Bound myself to this place (Unisversity)
I plan to leave this place behind when I have my own, independent financial resources. I don't want to depend on my parents.

It's not an easy journey to reach, but nothing in life worthwhile is.  I eventually achieved that level of contentment with myself and my spirituality.  It'll be a difficult struggle, but I have the confidence you'll reach that balance.

Take care and continue to reflect and seek input.

Wolfie


Thanks. I think I'm slowly getting out of this crisis, though I still feel its effects on me.

I just feel like im suffocating sometimes. Like everyone else is out for sex and I shouldn't even bother trying to develop relationships, because they all end in the bed.
Trust became an issue too, because treachery is part of the everyday routine. The last guy I dated turned out to be in a relationship. That was a very embarassing moment.
How do you just leave all this behind and look forward to the future? This is what I'd like to learn.

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 09:30:35 PM »
there is something at the end of the rainbow.  it just takes time to find the find it. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 09:37:11 PM »
there is something at the end of the rainbow.   

don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 09:47:02 PM »
lol   and may all your wishes come true...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 10:22:27 PM »
So when the church has social events the gays should just stfu, stay in the closet and ride at the back of the bus (read: different rules for heterosexuals)? No wonder Longtime Companion's "gay lifestyle" (your words) scenes disturbed you.


 Wow, talk about twisting my words! I never said hide, or stay in the closet. But just as I do not tell everyone I meet that I have HIV, nor do I tell everyone my sexual preference. I just do not see the need to announce ones sexual preference in all situations. For example, I met a comedian at an open mike a few weeks ago. Within two minutes he informed me that he was gay and in a 5 year monogamous relationship. I found that info a little too personal to share seeing as we had just met. Besides, I don't care. He was cool and I like him.
 I am sorry I chose the wrong words in the comment about Longtime Companion. Nothing about it disturbed me, it just did not appeal to me. I had the wrong expectations for that film.
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Offline bocker3

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 07:56:58 AM »


  For example, I met a comedian at an open mike a few weeks ago. Within two minutes he informed me that he was gay and in a 5 year monogamous relationship. I found that info a little too personal to share seeing as we had just met. Besides, I don't care. He was cool and I like him.

so, would you have felt the same if his "revelation" was that he had been married to a woman for 5 years?  I suspect not.  Self-loathing is alive and well. 
Oh, it is not a "sexual preference" for me -- it is simply who I am -- not a preference, not a "take it or leave it", it is innate.


Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 08:41:09 AM »
there is a learning curve for what to say and what not to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline wolfter

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2012, 09:07:17 AM »


  For example, I met a comedian at an open mike a few weeks ago. Within two minutes he informed me that he was gay and in a 5 year monogamous relationship. I found that info a little too personal to share seeing as we had just met. Besides, I don't care. He was cool and I like him.


Too personal?   Perhaps he should have just said he had a long term roommate?  That way he wouldn't upset delicate sensibilities.

Modified:  I forgave my entire family for continually referring to Bill as my roommate as they had internal issues with the entire concept of homosexuality. But to have someone within our own community be uncomfortable with someone declaring their love and commitment to another is astonishing to me.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 09:24:30 AM by wolfter »
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 09:07:50 AM »
Mojo ... its rather hard for a guy or girl to to get the point across that one is in a longterm relationship unless you are lucky enough to live in a state that legally allows same sex marrage . It invariably comes down to having to say you are gay or lesbian when you  mention a husband or wife in a conversation or else you get a blank stare when a guy named Al mentions his husband Joe .

Offline denb45

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 09:20:47 AM »
Well I'm a Warlock, and my hubby Bob is a Ware-wolf, and YES these things do exist, and we all reside in Albuquerque, NM....I seemed to have lost my christian roots many many yrs ago. but I kept my gay roots tho, if you must know  ;D


Hugs

DEN  :)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Online Jeff G

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 09:36:16 AM »
Well I'm a Warlock, and my hubby Bob is a Ware-wolf, and YES these things do exist, and we all reside in Albuquerque, NM....I seemed to have lost my christian roots many many yrs ago. but I kept my gay roots tho, if you must know  ;D


Hugs

DEN  :)

And Jazz hands ... you kept your Jazz hands  ;) .

Offline denb45

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2012, 06:59:40 PM »
Yes Jeff, I did  ;)


Hugs

DEN  :)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline DecoyBarrier

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2012, 12:21:54 AM »
I really like this community :D
Okay, I start to search the end of the rainbow ;)
Wish me luck and may all our wishes come true. :D

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 10:01:05 AM »
Good Luck....  March on with Hope in your Heart...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2012, 08:37:55 AM »
so, would you have felt the same if his "revelation" was that he had been married to a woman for 5 years?  I suspect not.  Self-loathing is alive and well. 
Oh, it is not a "sexual preference" for me -- it is simply who I am -- not a preference, not a "take it or leave it", it is innate.


Mike

 Point well made... I apologize! I did not realize how insensitive that was until you pointed this out. Thank you. It seems I was here thinking I had a decent attitude, it turned out I was kind of a jerk...

Modified to add this:  Wow, I just realized I was espousing a don't ask, don't tell thing..I am sorry. I will think more before I post in the future
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 08:40:59 AM by Mrmojorisin »
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Offline denb45

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2012, 10:50:57 AM »
. It invariably comes down to having to say you are gay or lesbian when you  mention a husband or wife in a conversation or else you get a blank stare when a guy named Al mentions his husband Joe .

Yeah Bob & I do sometimes get a lot of blank-stares here in ABQ, when we say that he's my partner, or hubby of 18 yrs. and sometimes we get a lot of sinkers and laughs too.........and we enjoy being a couple of old queers ,some people get us, but others do not  ;D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2012, 01:38:00 PM »
In a way, the Republicans tactic of using hate to win may have been over used.  So what, it was good timing to end the fight for the Presidency with gay hate, so what, they got gay hating so-called religious folk to gang up on a fast food line, and so what, they can't see "winning at all cost" is not wining at all.  All I know is that the more they push in the wrong direction, the worst they look and the more they lose.  At least I hope so.  Then again it make those who were once silent victims more vocal, more determined, and more defiant to the hate mongers.  This was their last card played and it was in play since the President approved Gay Marriage or when he first got elected.  So if this is the worst they can do, big deal.  Gay marriage is gaining more approval, it's OK to be gay in the military, Heck, it OK to be Gay period (cause we were born this way) and when all this is history, it will be a brand new world again. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 01:41:00 PM by red_Dragon888 »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline WillyWump

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2012, 04:51:23 PM »
I attend an amazing Methodist Church, one of the largest churches in SA, who is a member of the Reconciling Ministries Network. http://www.rmnetwork.org/ . Most of the staff including the preachers are openly gay (GASP!). We have both gay and straight followers and any given sunday you will see and feel the amazing love they have for one another, regardless of race, or sexual orientation, etc.. There are RMN ministries all over the US and they proudly advertise this logo at the door..

coming from a Baptist upbringing I can kind of relate to what you are experiencing, But as others have said, you do not need a church to have a relationship with GOD. You do not need another human being (preacher/priest) telling you how to worship, or what to be or what to do or not do. GOD is love, and GOD is tolerance.

The most repeated command in the Bible is "Fear not"...the second is "love.." So with that in mind have no fear about this juxtaposition you are dealing with. Priests/Preachers are not omnipotent, they are not God, they are mere humans. When they start preaching intolerance just bow your head and pray for them, but don't hate them merely because they know not what they speak of.

But ultimately you need to work on finding a tolerant church, the Episcopals and Methodists have made great strides in tolerance  ;)

Also check out the Believe OutLoud page http://www.believeoutloud.com/learn/watch-videos check out some of the Vids and perhaps it will help you with your beliefs.

-Will

Edited: I just saw you are in Hungary...I know nothing about what is available to you over there worship-wise. But regardless of where you are remember that the road to heaven does not have to go through a church, ultimately your religion is between you and your GOD only.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:55:02 PM by WillyWump »
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Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2012, 07:17:07 PM »
In a way, the Republicans tactic of using hate to win may have been over used.  So what, it was good timing to end the fight for the Presidency with gay hate, so what, they got gay hating so-called religious folk to gang up on a fast food line, and so what, they can't see "winning at all cost" is not wining at all.  All I know is that the more they push in the wrong direction, the worst they look and the more they lose.  At least I hope so.  Then again it make those who were once silent victims more vocal, more determined, and more defiant to the hate mongers.  This was their last card played and it was in play since the President approved Gay Marriage or when he first got elected.  So if this is the worst they can do, big deal.  Gay marriage is gaining more approval, it's OK to be gay in the military, Heck, it OK to be Gay period (cause we were born this way) and when all this is history, it will be a brand new world again.
Sorry, i put this in the wrong topic....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline DecoyBarrier

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  • Member
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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2012, 03:11:40 PM »
I attend an amazing Methodist Church, one of the largest churches in SA, who is a member of the Reconciling Ministries Network. http://www.rmnetwork.org/ . Most of the staff including the preachers are openly gay (GASP!). We have both gay and straight followers and any given sunday you will see and feel the amazing love they have for one another, regardless of race, or sexual orientation, etc.. There are RMN ministries all over the US and they proudly advertise this logo at the door..

coming from a Baptist upbringing I can kind of relate to what you are experiencing, But as others have said, you do not need a church to have a relationship with GOD. You do not need another human being (preacher/priest) telling you how to worship, or what to be or what to do or not do. GOD is love, and GOD is tolerance.

The most repeated command in the Bible is "Fear not"...the second is "love.." So with that in mind have no fear about this juxtaposition you are dealing with. Priests/Preachers are not omnipotent, they are not God, they are mere humans. When they start preaching intolerance just bow your head and pray for them, but don't hate them merely because they know not what they speak of.

But ultimately you need to work on finding a tolerant church, the Episcopals and Methodists have made great strides in tolerance  ;)

Also check out the Believe OutLoud page http://www.believeoutloud.com/learn/watch-videos check out some of the Vids and perhaps it will help you with your beliefs.

-Will

Edited: I just saw you are in Hungary...I know nothing about what is available to you over there worship-wise. But regardless of where you are remember that the road to heaven does not have to go through a church, ultimately your religion is between you and your GOD only.

Thank you for your input :) It really helps me to read your supportive words.
I will attend university this september, and if I can get a decent job I will try to move out of home. My mother has a very strong poisonous influence on my mental and spiritual health. She accused me of being completely useless, because I quit my job, and I work at home right now. I also need time to myself, but she doesn't seem to give a ... whatever.  The point is that I try to establish a healthy environment right now.

The videos are very uplifting, so thank you again :)

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Being gay and christian.
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2012, 08:42:12 PM »


 :D
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

 


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