Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
Newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr Instagram
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 20, 2014, 11:01:05 PM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 642836
  • Total Topics: 48902
  • Online Today: 242
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?  (Read 18022 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline friskyguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« on: July 12, 2012, 08:52:52 AM »
Hi all. New here to the community. Have been following all your great advice ‘as a guest’ since learning of my HIV status in Dec 2010. Feel comfortable now to contribute and therefore have just registered here to actively contribute.

To begin, I just want to thank you to all of you who actively participate in these forums including the moderators. I have learnt so much from you all and now feel more at ease with my HIV status and future. I am sure there are many more who visit this forum who have also greatly benefited from your knowledgeable (and some not so knowledgeable) contributions  ;) You are fantastic and your advice is truly comforting. Knowledge is power.

Just a quick intro about me…..as a 44 years Caucasian male now living in a progressive (ie economic only!!!!) and prosperous South East Asian island state, I must be discreet about my HIV status. If discovered by the health authorities, one is immediately deported.

Doctors here are frequently known to routinely test for HIV when patients are presenting for other health conditions. This HIV testing is not advised to the patient and consent is not needed….a truly scary situation that is hard to believe exists here in the 21 century…..I now know what it is like to be persecuted!!!

Therefore I have been advised ‘by those in the know’ to fly to neighbouring Thailand for all my meds and specialist consultations. I have been doing this since learning of my HIV status in late 2010 and have no choice but to run the ‘customs/immigration gauntlet’ upon returning with my newly stock of meds packed in my suit case.

So far so good however with no bag searches conducted upon entry……fingers and toes are always crossed!! Feel that my beads of sweat are going to give me away one of these days just like in one of those hollywood movies ;-) I understand from my Thai specialist that there is a considerable contingent of foreigners working/living here that unfortunately have to do the same.

Thankfully my jaunt to Thailand is now only needed twice per year. I started treatment immediately and am fortunate that my CD4 counts have plateaued at around 700 (49%) and viral load successfully suppressed since early 2011 due to my Kivexa and Stocrin combo.  :)

I have stumbled upon this article on the net (copied below), and was wondering what others thought about it….could this be potentially a simple way of improving immunity and CD4 counts? I understand that probiotics are not all considered equal and therefore simply by eating yoghurt from the supermarket to increase CD4 counts may not assist.

Perhaps by consuming this harmless branded probiotic (in gell form) and therefore avoiding the stomach acid may be a way of populating CD4 cells in the gut for CD4 count restoration and expansion therefore improving counts CD4 counts overall?

I found it very interesting to read elsewhere that over 70% of CD4 cells are located in the gut and that HIV enjoys hiding out in the gut-associated lymphoid tissue (GALT) as reservoirs even with patients successfully supressing the virus. So the gut is quite significant in all of this.

Has anyone here trialled this probiotic product, perhaps regularly consuming it after their CD4 counts had plateaued, and thus can point to some encouraging results? Thanks for your feedback.

DO FRIENDLY BUGS IMPROVE IMMUNE FUNCTION?
CROI 2012 Oral Presentation #95. Probiotic Supplementation of ARV Treatment during SIV Infection of Pigtail Macaques Results in Enhanced GI Tract CD4+ T Cell Frequency and Immunological Function

During progressive HIV/SIV (simian immune deficiency virus in monkeys) infections, damage to the GI tract leads to microbial translocation, which may contribute to chronic immune activation and disease progression.

This study treated chronically SIV-infected pigtail macaques monkeys (PTM) with probiotics (brand name: Culturelle) in combination with ARV treatment, and compared to chronically SIV-infected PTM treated with ARV alone. Combination ARV therapy included 30mg/kg PMPA (a nucleoside that has been extensively used in SIV studies), 30mg/kg emtricitabine (FTC) (once daily, s.c.), and 120mg L812, 50mg L564 (twice daily, oral integrase inhibitors) for an average of 162 days.

The study team found that, compared to PTM treated with ARV alone, animals given probiotics and ARV had enhanced reconstitution of CD4+ T cells in the colon (almost double the CD4 cell counts attained by the ARV alone group). Furthermore, probiotic treatment decreased the activation of CD4+ T cells in the colon and increased the overall functionality of colon CD4+ T cells as measured by multifunctional cytokine production, with indications of enhanced mucosal immunity.

Although this was a monkey study, the presenter hinted at the possibility of expecting similar results in humans infected with HIV. Since probiotics do not colonize the GI track, they need to be dosed daily or frequently, however.
Sero converted Sept '10 / Confirmed + Dec '10
Jan '11, VL 9,500 / CD4 482 (32%)
Feb '11, VL 5,800 / CD4 680 (37%)
start Atripla
Mch '11, VL UD / CD4 700 (42%)
Jun  '11, VL UD / CD4 750 (43%)
swap to Kivexa and Efav. due to osteopenia diag. (DEXA) / kidney issues ( decline in eGFR to 77 )
start supplements - Vit D3 / Omega 3 / multivitamin / mini aspirin
Dec '11,  VL UD <20 /  CD4 670 (49%)  / CD4:CD8 = 1.4
all labs now within normal ranges
Mch '12,  VL UD / CD4 600 (51%)
Sep '12,  VL UD / CD4 810 (51%)
Mch '13   VL UD / CD4 965 (56%)
Sep '13   VL UD / CD4 (not taken)
Dec '13   VL UD / CD4 901 (35%) / CD4:CD8 = 1.1  /  eGFR > 100

Offline DavidinCA92284

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 11:12:35 PM »
In my situation, I'm reaching for probiotics because of inconsistent digestive problems brought about by IBS, maybe the medications and diarrhea/constipation issues.  I doubt I would have reached for probiotics when my Tcells had peaked or when I knew I was healthy. 

That said, in the United States, many efforts are made to make healthy eating - such as adding probiotics directly to yogurt.  There are only a few products out on the market that actually implies that their product (whole or partially) survives the stomach acids and allows for colonization in the large and small intestine.  One over the counter product available through Amazon or other places is Sustenex.  It claims to use BC30 - which is supposedly the only probiotic known to successfully go past the stomach.   

I'm just starting taking it, so I won't know for a while if it actually works for me to help with my digestive problems and we'll see how or if it impacts blood work in a few months.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2012, 07:21:52 AM »
There was a very interesting article in June's edition of Scientific American discussing the bacteria that live in and on our bodies. There is only a short preview available online, but if you can manage to get a hold of a hard-copy, I'd highly recommend reading the whole article.

In Brief:

    Bacterial cells in the body outnumber human cells by a factor of 10 to 1. Yet only recently have researchers begun to elucidate the beneficial roles these microbes play in fostering health.

    Some of these bacteria possess genes that encode for beneficial compounds that the body cannot make on its own. Other bacteria seem to train the body not to overreact to outside threats.

    Advances in computing and gene sequencing are allowing investigators to create a detailed catalogue of all the bacterial genes that make up this so-called microbiome.

    Unfortunately, the inadvertent destruction of beneficial microbes by the use of antibiotics, among other things,  may be leading to an increase in autoimmune disorders and obesity.
source


In the article, there is a detailed discussion about regulatory T-cells and pro-inflammatory T-cells (see this lesson). A small excerpt (not available online) of this discussion follows:

For years researchers assumed that this system of checks and balances (regulatory and pro-inflammatory T-cells) was generated entirely by the immune system. But in yet another example of how little we control our own fate, Mazmanian and others are starting to show that a healthy, mature immune system depends on the constant intervention of beneficial bacteria. "It goes against dogma to think that bacteria would make our immune systems function better," he says. "But the picture is getting very clear: the driving force behind the features of the immune system are commensals*."

*commensal [kəmen′səl]
Etymology: L, com, together, imensa, table

(two different species) living together in an arrangement that is not harmful to either and that may be beneficial to both. Some bacteria in the digestive tract of humans aid in the processing of food and produce B vitamins needed for normal health while causing no harm (normal flora).
source

It's a very good article - lots of food for thought, if you'll pardon the pun. If there's anyone who cannot get a hard-copy of the magazine, I'm willing to either make copies and send it via post, or have it scanned so it can be sent via email. Send me a PM if you're interested. :)


PS - there is another interesting article in June's edition of Scientific American that people here might want to read, but again, it's only available online as a preview. HIV Researcher Probes Vulnerabilities in the Virus for Clues to a Vaccine. It's an interview with a young hiv researcher called Thumbi Ndung'u.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 07:28:46 AM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2012, 01:23:44 PM »
Do you take probiotic, Ann? Just curious... I do... And I have wondered if that has any sort of play with why my numbers are what they are... I'd say most is probably genetics mixed in with diet, etc... I take some other supplements too... But have always been curious about probiotics because, yes, most of your immune system is in your gut so it makes sense (to me) to do everything possible for a healthy gut to help out your body. I'm interested in this sort of thing. :)
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2012, 02:25:29 PM »

Do you take probiotic, Ann?


Usually only while I'm on an antibiotic and a week or so after. I might re-think that (and use more) after further investigation.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 02:57:07 PM »
I always do a course of them after being on anti-biotics. Wouldn't that make more sense, or am I wrong?

If anyone cares this is what I buy, and easily found at larger GNC stores or ordered on line. I think Whole Foods carries it too.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 03:16:01 PM »

I always do a course of them after being on anti-biotics. Wouldn't that make more sense, or am I wrong?


I've always looked at it this way (using an analogy).

I've got a plastic cup full of water (digestive system full of beneficial bacteria). I poke a small hole in the bottom of the cup (start taking antibiotics) and the water (beneficial bacteria) slowly starts draining away.

If I start topping the cup up even while it's draining from the bottom, when I finally put a stopper in the hole (stop taking antibiotics), it's going to take less time to fill my cup back up (replenish the beneficial bacteria).

So yeah, I always start probiotics as soon as I start taking antibiotics. I'm trying to keep my cup as full as possible.

If you wait until the antibiotics are finished, you're starting nearly from scratch. Makes sense to me anyway.

Also, I've noticed it takes longer for me to develop thrush when I start using probiotics right away. I've always been prone to antibiotic-related thrush, even before hiv.

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 03:19:08 PM »
Miss P - that's exactly what I take! I've been taking for a couple years. I very rarely have any sort of IBS or anything like that.

I also take Valacyclovir daily as a prophylaxis (sp?) treatment... especially since I am not on HIV meds yet - my ID wanted me to take that daily.  As such, I take probiotics daily (3 every morning). 

Antibiotics kill off the good bacteria and bad bacteria... it doesn't know which is which... BUT... if you take a buttload of good then it can't kill it all off and the good overwhelm the bad - see what I mean? Now... I have no scientific research to back that up (i haven't' looked though either) - merely expressing my personal opinion is all  :)

Why I was curious Ann.. was because of your numbers... I was just wondering if that had any play in it... but maybe not... again, could just be due to genetics and other factors...

Maybe I should make all my posts from my cellphone huh? They are a lot shorter! Muwahahahaha  :)
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 03:23:37 PM »
Speaking of all of this, I've been on anti-biotics for a total of 10 weeks in the past nine months. ::)

I just did a little googling and evidently the NIH says that if you take probiotics during anti-biotic treatment you should not take them in the same dose, but instead take the pro-biotic two hours after the anti-biotic.

It also seems that any studies, and there aren't a lot and they also are highly qualified, are meant to address the 1 in 5 patients that get diarrhea while on anti-biotics. So I guess if you the 4 in 5 patients that don't then you're gut isn't shot? Not sure how I'm supposed to know considering HIV ruined my GI tract (irreversibly it seems) two decades ago, which is fascinating since I took pro-biotics every day for probably the first five years of my med treatment. Plus most of the time I've been on anti-biotics this past year I'm also on some synthetic opioid which constipates me.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 03:28:59 PM by Miss Philicia »
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 03:27:18 PM »
... I just did a little googling and evidently the NIH says that if you take probiotics during anti-biotic treatment you should not take them in the same dose, but instead take the pro-biotic two hours after the anti-biotic.

Interesting... and good to know.  OF all the research I've done and reading about HIV... I really should focus on other things at times too! As in the probiotic's, etc.  I take them at the same time... but I'm probably throwing some money down the drain by doing that apparently.

Good to know - thanks!
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 03:29:31 PM »
Speaking of all of this, I've been on anti-biotics for a total of 10 weeks in the past nine months. ::)

I just did a little googling and evidently the NIH says that if you take probiotics during anti-biotic treatment you should not take them in the same dose, but instead take the pro-biotic two hours after the anti-biotic.

Good point - I never take mine at the same time, there's usually at least a couple hours between. Just seemed like common sense.

Forrest, I have no idea why my numbers remained so good for so long. I haven't consciously done anything special. I'm just lucky. I believe I've told you this before.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 03:30:39 PM »
That's the main reason I waited until after a round of anti-biotics to take them. I didn't like combining something if it was possibly going to interfere with what the anti-biotic was supposed to do.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2012, 03:34:55 PM »
Forrest, I have no idea why my numbers remained so good for so long. I haven't consciously done anything special. I'm just lucky. I believe I've told you this before.

 :(   :-[   :-\ 

Yeah... you may have... but my memory has been so bad that I just don't remember stuff these days  :(  Drives me nuts.  I can read a thread and by the time I get to the last part of it (if it's longer), I don't remember the beginning.  It just really sucks.  Could be HIV related... dunno.  I never used to be like this. 

Anyway, please just hang in there with me and don't assume I have remembered, b/c chances are... I haven't  :(  :(  :(

Appreciate the patience.  At least, I think, I don't require as much patience as one does when moderating "Am I"   :o   :P
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2012, 03:45:10 PM »

It also seems that any studies, and there aren't a lot and they also are highly qualified, are meant to address the 1 in 5 patients that get diarrhea while on anti-biotics. So I guess if you the 4 in 5 patients that don't then you're gut isn't shot? Not sure how I'm supposed to know considering HIV ruined my GI tract (irreversibly it seems) two decades ago, which is fascinating since I took pro-biotics every day for probably the first five years of my med treatment. Plus most of the time I've been on anti-biotics this past year I'm also on some synthetic opioid which constipates me.


I've just noticed you edited this in while I was posting.

I don't remember having antibiotic diarrhea before hiv, but as you know hiv has also played havoc with my gut and I've been on codeine for years now just so I can leave the house. Probiotics never made a bit of difference to my hiv-related dire-rear - it was one of many things I tried for several years before I resorted to codeine.

The main difference I've noted with probiotics in conjunction with antibiotics is the way it slows down - and occasionally even stops - thrush formation, thereby lessening my need for fluconazole. I hate having to follow antibiotics up with fluconazole - it gives me chapped lips.

That's the main reason I waited until after a round of anti-biotics to take them. I didn't like combining something if it was possibly going to interfere with what the anti-biotic was supposed to do.

I've never seen any evidence of the probiotics I take during antibiotic use interfering with the antibiotics. The infections go away in good time and are always completely gone by the time the script is finished. But like I said, I don't take the two at the same time, I always leave hours between.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2012, 03:47:48 PM »
:(   :-[   :-\ 

but my memory has been so bad

Could be HIV related... dunno.  I never used to be like this. 


It's much more likely to be stress related. Chill out!
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2012, 04:47:37 PM »
It's much more likely to be stress related. Chill out!

:(  Why are you being mean, Ann?   :(
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2012, 04:59:05 PM »
:(  Why are you being mean, Ann?   :(

Mean? I'm not being mean, I'm being honest. Stress will mess with your short term memory and concentration far faster than hiv will.

Hiv may be causing your stress, but it's not directly causing your stress-related problems,  if you see what I mean.

Get yourself into therapy, or at least find a relaxing hobby and find other ways to reduce stress in your life. Instead of worrying about taking probiotics, take a chill pill.

And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2012, 05:06:25 PM »
Okay. Thanks for clarifying.  :)  Although, I never said taking probiotics is stressing me out. It's not in the least.  And, I am seeing a counselor.  Maybe I am just not cut out for these forums.  I'm beginning to think I should just stop coming here and posting here - honestly.  But thanks for clarifying anyway. 
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2012, 05:39:50 PM »
I found probiotic gummi bears at Costco.

Also fiber gummi bears and multivitamin gummie bears for adults.

Adults. Heh.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2012, 07:25:12 AM »

Okay. Thanks for clarifying.  :)  Although, I never said taking probiotics is stressing me out. It's not in the least.  And, I am seeing a counselor.


Forrest, I never said probiotics were stressing you out either.

But hiv obviously is - and going by your recent posts, you seem to be worrying obsessing over intensely thinking about treatments as a whole, including the "when to start ARVs" question as well as taking things like probiotics and acyclovir, thinking it will help you maintain good numbers.

See, that's the thing. The only proven thing that helps maintain good numbers is ARV treatment.

Your body is going to dictate how quickly or slowly your hiv infection progresses, not any supplements or antivirals such as acyclovir.

The only thing that is going to take over from your body in the fight against hiv is ARV treatment.

That's just the way it is.

So far your body is doing a good job. It's up to you at this point whether you give your body a hand in its fight by taking ARVs, or if you just relax and let your body do its job for a while longer. You're going to be ok which ever way you go.

You have to realise that hiv isn't the totality of your health. Stress will cause illness even in hiv negative people.

While reducing stress in your life isn't going to make a difference to that virus running around in your body, it's going to make a difference to your over-all health.

That is the distinction I think a lot of newly diagnosed people fail to make.

And that's not me being mean to you or any other newly diagnosed person. It's simply an observation - an observation informed by living for many years with hiv.


Maybe I am just not cut out for these forums.  I'm beginning to think I should just stop coming here and posting here - honestly.


Why, so you don't have to hear what you don't want to hear? Nobody is trying to be mean to you - I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my experience and knowledge and so are other people who come here.

I remember being in the same place you are when I was new to this - but I listened to people who had more experience and knowledge. And yes, sometimes I didn't like what I heard, but I never took it personally. You shouldn't either.

I wanted to think there was something I could do - other than taking ARVs - to slow my progression and I didn't like it when people told me there was nothing I could do, but I accepted that fact. I read the history of the pandemic and what people went through in the early days before effective ARV treatment and realised people were telling me the truth.

My numbers did not warrant starting treatment, so I eventually just relaxed and got on with my life. My numbers were going to be what they were going to be regardless of what I did or didn't do, so why worry about it? I made sure I had regular labs done, maintained a healthy-ish lifestyle to the best of my abilities and stopped worrying about it.

You might benefit from knowing the Serenity Prayer. You don't have to be religious in order for it to help you - it's a valuable nugget of wisdom regardless of your spiritual beliefs - or lack thereof. You can substitute the word God for whatever rocks your boat.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.


Let's break it down.

the serenity to accept the things I cannot change

You cannot change the fact that you have hiv.

You cannot change the fact that there is nothing you can do to change the way your body handles hiv, other than taking ARVs.

You cannot change or influence whether or not you are a long term non-progressor, a long term slow-progressor, a fast progressor or somewhere in-between.

You cannot change the fact that you're going to get sore throats, colds, aches, pains, the flu, or anything else human beings are prone to suffering through, regardless of hiv status.

Courage to change the things I can

You can change your perspective by accepting the fact that you cannot influence hiv, outside of ARV treatment. The day I accepted that fact, a load was lifted off my shoulders. It meant that I wasn't doing anything "wrong", because there wasn't anything I could do that was "right".

You can eat a healthy diet, exercise and get plenty of rest. While this won't change your hiv progression rate, it will enable you to better handle whatever life throws your way. This is true regardless of your hiv status.

You can reduce the stress in your life - and that again is good for your overall health, but will not affect your hiv progression rate.

You can decide to start ARV treatment, because that is the only thing that will affect your hiv progression rate.

You can, given your numbers, relax and let your body do its thing for a while longer. Provided you keep getting your labs done regularly, you're not going to be in any danger.

the wisdom to know the difference

You're going to get colds and sore throats and aches and pains just like anyone who is hiv negative. As long as you have good numbers - like you do - it's unlikely to have anything to do with hiv.

While you might realise this on an intellectual level, it can take time to realise it on an emotional level. When you understand this on both levels, well, that's wisdom.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2012, 07:26:47 AM »

I found probiotic gummi bears at Costco.

Also fiber gummi bears and multivitamin gummie bears for adults.

Adults. Heh.



Me no likee gummi bears.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2012, 11:52:59 AM »
Me no likee gummi bears.

How about a bag of Offal Gummi Bears... I will make them specially 4 u
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2012, 11:59:25 AM »
How about a bag of Offal Gummi Bears... I will make them specially 4 u

Well, if you're going to go to all that trouble....

Nope, sorry. Me still no likeee.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2012, 12:00:10 PM »
Do you not even eat bone marrow -- it's like my favorite thing in the world? It would be delightful in a Gummi Bear.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2012, 12:04:55 PM »
Do you not even eat bone marrow -- it's like my favorite thing in the world? It would be delightful in a Gummi Bear.

Can't say that I ever have, no.

I can't think of anything that would make a Gummi Bear appetising, aside from maybe turbo-charged alcohol or an infusion of LSD.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2012, 12:25:41 PM »
I found probiotic gummi bears at Costco.

Also fiber gummi bears and multivitamin gummie bears for adults.

Adults. Heh.

I prefer greek yoguart  or low fat when the greek yoguart isn't on sale, I eat it everyday, seems to work somewhat  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2012, 12:27:48 PM »
Can't say that I ever have, no.

You need to find a recipe for ossobucco and make it. I promise you'd love it, plus eating the bone marrow is only a small part of the dish. I assume you'll eat veal?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline buginme2

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,118
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2012, 01:07:07 PM »
Ann, I really like your breakdown of the serenity prayer! Im going to print that out.



Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2012, 01:36:38 PM »
Ann, I really like your breakdown of the serenity prayer! Im going to print that out.


I'm glad someone benefited from it - Forrest hasn't been back. He thinks we're mean. :(
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2012, 06:52:38 PM »
I'm now just getting back to this... sorry if my timeliness didn't fit with your expectations.  I could go on with some of the additional things you stated, but I won't in this thread. I don't appreciate some of the comments, though, Ann.  I feel as an Admin, you need to be a bit more respectful. This is not "Am I." I do appreciate your time in the serenity prayer... but I think you have a somewhat wrong picture of me... Oh well.  Thanks for the time.
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2012, 07:25:50 PM »
Where, exactly, was I not respectful?
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,176
  • Twerk Baby Twerk
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2012, 07:46:43 PM »
I'm tardy to this party and even I see that you have validated everything that Ann said in the post you found to be somewhat offensive, forrest.  She called it out and because of it, you're feeling as if she singled you out by pointing out your behaviors.


But hiv obviously is - and going by your recent posts, you seem to be worrying obsessing over intensely thinking about treatments as a whole, including the "when to start ARVs" question as well as taking things like probiotics and acyclovir, thinking it will help you maintain good numbers.

That is the distinction I think a lot of newly diagnosed people fail to make.

And that's not me being mean to you or any other newly diagnosed person. It's simply an observation - an observation informed by living for many years with hiv.

Why, so you don't have to hear what you don't want to hear? Nobody is trying to be mean to you - I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my experience and knowledge and so are other people who come here.


After all, you are the one going around exhibiting behaviors in which Ann attempted to tell you to just chill because there is absolutely no reason for you to be doing these things (at this point and time). 

As someone who has been living with hiv for eons, I have not once thought about sticking a flashlight in my mouth looking for thrush.  And if you keep it up, you'll wind up driving yourself crazy like another forum member who wondered whether he had thrush when he was eating breath mints and saw white residue on his tongue.

Thanks guys - hopefully it's not what I have.  Just odd that it's not going away... could be GI related though as well. I looked with a flashlight into my mouth... not particularly used to looking in my mouth like that so not sure if what I'm looking at is normal or not (there is some whitish looking stuff... but could just be normal too for all I know). Anyway, thank you.
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. 
Last regimen:  Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »
I'm now just getting back to this... sorry if my timeliness didn't fit with your expectations.  I could go on with some of the additional things you stated, but I won't in this thread. I don't appreciate some of the comments, though, Ann.  I feel as an Admin, you need to be a bit more respectful. This is not "Am I." I do appreciate your time in the serenity prayer... but I think you have a somewhat wrong picture of me... Oh well.  Thanks for the time.

Oh  ::) just bend over "BOY" and take your spanking like a man, and get "OVER IT"  :)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline forrest

  • Member
  • Posts: 162
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2012, 08:25:52 PM »
WTH. Re read through what I have posted... I was adding to the conversation, even being jovial, and then things seemed to turn south. I am not sure whatt the deal is. 

I was told to "Chill out!" that is the same as writing in all caps to me.  I didn't feel it was warranted. All I have done is come here looking for support and being very open and vulnerable to trying to learn how to cope with HIV. Sorry.

Remember, I do not know you personally... I don't know if you are a sarcastic sort of person, a serious sort of person, etc. All I have to go off of is the words that are written.  Words do not have tone (for the most part).  I am writing this, for example, a bit frustrated, but also trying to be very genuine.  The perception is what I am writing about. 

Ann then said "Instead of worrying about taking probiotics, take a chill pill."  And then further down she said “Forrest, I never said probiotics were stressing you out either.”

How am I supposed to take that?  I was not and never have worried about taking probiotics.  Why take a “chill pill” about it? 

And when I commented about “Maybe I am just not cut out for these forums. I’m beginning to think I should just stop coming here and posting here – honestly” – it was followed up by Ann stating “Why, so you don’t have to hear what you don’t want to hear?”

That’s not why I said that at all. It’s a very open place and when you post, it makes you very vulnerable and open for all sorts of interpretation and I am not sure if that sort of place is for me.  I have actually listened to a lot of people here (including you, Ann, which makes me confused as to why it appears that you are “going after me for some reason.”  Again, perception – could be wrong, could be right.  I don’t know what is going on in your life… you could be having a bad day for all I know. I dunno. 

And then when you (Ann) state that “I’m glad someone benefited from it – Forrest hasn’t been back.  He thinks we’re mean.”  It’s the weekend, I have been running errands, with neighbors, etc.  I simply hadn’t taken the time out yet to reply.  And no, I never said that everyone was mean.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  I simply asked that question to YOU in a reply.  I never stated that about anyone else.  And, I wasn’t saying you were mean as a person or anything. I was simply asking “Why are you being mean, Ann?” and even had sad faces to try and give tone that your comment made me a little sad.

And LT, I couldn’t see inside my mouth and so I simply added some light to it. Geesh. Just like if I stabbed my foot with something and wanted a closer look.  Makes sense (to me) to at least just look in my mouth after all to see what it looks like.  I don’t see what the big deal is with that. 

I am not going to go back and forth. It’s not my style.  I’ve done more back and forth in this thread than is normal for me. I don’t like arguing, debating, etc. 
I came to this forum for support, not to be ripped apart. I have never ripped anyone else apart or been mean to anyone on here.  I always try to be nice. This is all new and scary and sorry for processing in an open place.  I’m not going to any more.  This doesn’t seem to be a safe environment to do processing.  At least that is how I am feeling at the moment.  You guys do not know me. I am a very genuine, sincere, honest, mostly humble, and sensitive sort of guy. But, I felt like I needed to comment since Ann asked.  I think I’ll just not say anything more in these forums.

 :(
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline denb45

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,051
  • "1987 Classic Old School POZ+"
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2012, 08:47:09 PM »
@ forrest just breath ok, I got a headache reading all of that  ;D

We want you to stick around, and I'm glad your here  ;)



HUGS

DENNIS
in ABQ  :D
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,902
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2012, 11:10:07 PM »
I am not going to go back and forth. It’s not my style.  I’ve done more back and forth in this thread than is normal for me. I don’t like arguing, debating, etc. 
I came to this forum for support, not to be ripped apart. I have never ripped anyone else apart or been mean to anyone on here.  I always try to be nice. This is all new and scary and sorry for processing in an open place.  I’m not going to any more.  This doesn’t seem to be a safe environment to do processing.  At least that is how I am feeling at the moment.  You guys do not know me. I am a very genuine, sincere, honest, mostly humble, and sensitive sort of guy. But, I felt like I needed to comment since Ann asked.  I think I’ll just not say anything more in these forums.
 :(

Forrest, Ann is not the only one to have notice that you "over think" things.  You've been wrestling with treatment decisions and anxiety about HIV very honestly in these forums.  The advice to take a chill pill means Ann and others think it would be helpful if you find a way to derail this stream of thought. There are quite a number of things about living well with HIV that are rather out of our control.  Also, assuming a limited attention span and free time, we don't need to master the deeper mysteries and technicalities of our health to nevertheless live well.  Expert doctors and HAART are to be relied on and free up time and energy to be spent on every and any thing.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 06:48:42 AM »
Forrest, I have never been sarcastic with you. I have never "gone after" you.

I've tried to help you and I've tried to be supportive. If that got lost in the translation, I'm sorry. My only intent was to try to help, as I've tried to help you in the past.

As you do not seem to understand me, I'll refrain from replying to you in future.

My intent has never been to upset you but as that seems to be what I do, I'll just keep silent. (and I'm taking a few days off anyway)
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2012, 12:49:35 PM »
Having read the whole thread, I think that forrest was mistaking Ann's attempt at familiarity with malicious teasing - which is odd because Ann does not have a history of malicious behavior.

Not even in the AM I INFECTED thread, which was brought up.

My own friends tell me to chill out all the time.  They even speak in all caps when I am seriously of the rails.

It is a shame that Ann's attempts to treat forrest not as a snowflake, but as a person, a MEMBER of the community and not an untouchable curiosity, were so very completely rebuffed. I know he didn't mean to hurt Ann's feelings like I am almost certain he did (having a hand of friendship slapped away does that) but the fact remains, this disease is not fo the thin of skin or the weak of heart.

Ann has had HUGE experience dealing with thrush.

I have had some myself, even esophageal thrush, over my nineteen-year experience with HIV.  My minor bouts have been uncomfortable. My major bouts have hurt like holy hell and caused me to lose bunches of weight. Not the "my, you are looking trim in your skinny pants, Mr. K" kind of weight loss. More along the lines of "when are you going to topple over and die, Mr K?" kind of stuff. It's all in the face, it seems.

And yes, the analogies to the AM I INFECTED forum are rather apt, I think.

Many times, people in that forum, a week or two after associating with a massage therapist, they list a litany of "classic" HIV symptoms. Including lipoatrophy, stools of every conceivable description, the beginnings of KS, and other signs of Imminent Death.

Which as we all know, it HIGHLY unlikely, given, well, a goddamned massage.

Sometimes I notice the same stuff in newly diagnosed persons. Three months in, and boom! Lipo! Someone loss ten pounds? Wasting. A poorly times altoid? Thrush.

The learning curve for HIV is admittedly high. And knowing where you are, what you are likely to face at any given point in the journey, is sometimes difficult because the signposts keep changing.

People here DO develop KS, and thrush, and on occasion, even lipo, still. But not nearly often enough outside the LTS subset to make those diagnoses the first assumption.  A little knowledge, it has been said, is a dangerous thing.

And sometimes we just need to be told, with humor and kindness, to chill the fuck out already.

Seems like feelings were hurt all the way around here. Methinks people who wear grownup pants might step back and re-evaluate their chosen interpretations.

Ann is far from a bully. She is far from mean or disrespectful. Shit, does anyone even READ the AM I forums? She puts things way more politely than I do, and gives the anxiety and hysteria a lot more leeway than a person normally would. She's like an angel there, and I am not being hyperbolic.

It seems to me that when a forum becomes more about validating.encouraging fears rather than imparting fact-based information, the purpose of these forums becomes muddied, if not altogether lost.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline friskyguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 12:24:52 AM »
Ok....time out.....now let's get back to the topic!!!  ;) ;D
Sero converted Sept '10 / Confirmed + Dec '10
Jan '11, VL 9,500 / CD4 482 (32%)
Feb '11, VL 5,800 / CD4 680 (37%)
start Atripla
Mch '11, VL UD / CD4 700 (42%)
Jun  '11, VL UD / CD4 750 (43%)
swap to Kivexa and Efav. due to osteopenia diag. (DEXA) / kidney issues ( decline in eGFR to 77 )
start supplements - Vit D3 / Omega 3 / multivitamin / mini aspirin
Dec '11,  VL UD <20 /  CD4 670 (49%)  / CD4:CD8 = 1.4
all labs now within normal ranges
Mch '12,  VL UD / CD4 600 (51%)
Sep '12,  VL UD / CD4 810 (51%)
Mch '13   VL UD / CD4 965 (56%)
Sep '13   VL UD / CD4 (not taken)
Dec '13   VL UD / CD4 901 (35%) / CD4:CD8 = 1.1  /  eGFR > 100

Offline PositivelyMotivated

  • Member
  • Posts: 41
  • Improbable Heterosexual Statistic
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2012, 08:18:58 AM »
I had been taking probiotics for about 8 months after the worst of my seroconversion and started to feel pretty well after ... I stopped recently due to financial constraints and have now begun to feel like shit agian ... Between my own experiences and this article I believe Im sold on their benefits and am getting off my ass as soon as im done typing this and picking some more up !

Also on a side note ... I used to be with a girl that was raised on a farm ... Any time someone got a stomach issue her mother used to give them a sliver of this blue toothpaste looking stuff out of a syringe and they would be cured within the hour ... Turned out it was probiotic for cattle !!! Apparently its pretty cheap and also potent and quite tolerable by humans ... Sold at feed shops and the like ... just in case anyone wanted to give it a try ! Im pretty sure its more heavy duty than anything you can get at the grocery store ! cheers ...
Infected 8/15/11
3/1/12 CD4 398 VL 35k

Offline PositivelyMotivated

  • Member
  • Posts: 41
  • Improbable Heterosexual Statistic
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2012, 09:00:30 AM »
just got back from the pharmacy with a bottle of acidophilus and lactobacillus probiotics ... for some reason i didnt even think to get them there in capsule form ... anyway after getting home i read this ...

In addition to dietary sources, probiotics are also available in pill or capsule form as a nutritional supplement. These supplements offer a way for lactose-intolerant individuals to take probiotics without consuming dairy products. Probiotics are not for everyone. Persons with suppressed immune systems, such as HIV-positive individuals, should discuss probiotics with their doctor before taking these supplements, warns the University of Maryland Medical Center.

Infected 8/15/11
3/1/12 CD4 398 VL 35k

Offline friskyguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2012, 11:22:18 AM »
Hi Ann, if you do manage to do some additional research on probiotics as a supplement to improve and maintain improved immunity in the gut and the potential extension/additional benefit to those living with HIV (apart from the common useage after a course of antibiotics), your insight would be very welcome.

cheers Frisky
Sero converted Sept '10 / Confirmed + Dec '10
Jan '11, VL 9,500 / CD4 482 (32%)
Feb '11, VL 5,800 / CD4 680 (37%)
start Atripla
Mch '11, VL UD / CD4 700 (42%)
Jun  '11, VL UD / CD4 750 (43%)
swap to Kivexa and Efav. due to osteopenia diag. (DEXA) / kidney issues ( decline in eGFR to 77 )
start supplements - Vit D3 / Omega 3 / multivitamin / mini aspirin
Dec '11,  VL UD <20 /  CD4 670 (49%)  / CD4:CD8 = 1.4
all labs now within normal ranges
Mch '12,  VL UD / CD4 600 (51%)
Sep '12,  VL UD / CD4 810 (51%)
Mch '13   VL UD / CD4 965 (56%)
Sep '13   VL UD / CD4 (not taken)
Dec '13   VL UD / CD4 901 (35%) / CD4:CD8 = 1.1  /  eGFR > 100

Offline Reishi

  • Member
  • Posts: 20
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2013, 03:56:02 AM »
I'm too tired to go over this thread with a fine-tooth comb.

Ann, that was a fantastic breakdown of the serenity prayer.  Thank you for that.

A few months ago, I ran across a similar article to the one the OP posted, but I can't recall where I saw it.  The gist of "my" article was the same:  HIV hides in the gut.  I think the article also said that consuming excessive amounts of animal protein helps "feed" HIV.

I've never taken probiotic pills, but I figure you can get (a smaller amount of) the same beneficial bacterial cultures by consuming kefir or kombucha tea.  I've been drinking both for years, even when I was neg, because I have a very sensitive stomach and they help keep me regular.

As for antibiotics... I've had to take them twice during my adult life and I knew beforehand they would kill off the beneficial bacteria too.  It seemed more logical to me to finish the course of antibiotics before trying to replenish the good bacteria.  So I started with kombucha tea the minute I was all done with the antibiotics.


Offline Reishi

  • Member
  • Posts: 20
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2013, 01:38:42 PM »
Found it!  Here's the article I was referring to.  Like the one the OP posted, it also encourages the use of probiotics.


« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 01:40:41 PM by Jeff G »

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 12,100
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2013, 01:48:13 PM »
Found it!  Here's the article I was referring to.  Like the one the OP posted, it also encourages the use of probiotics.




I have removed your link to a site that claims HIV can be controlled by diet alone . It appeared to be a denialist website but to be honest Im in mo mood to read the whole site you linked too . HIV can only be controlled by ART and linking to any websites that claims differently is a bannable offense .

I know you were trying to be helpful and provide a link about probiotics but that website contains incorrect information about HIV and we cant allow that kind of material to be linked to . Thanks .

Offline Reishi

  • Member
  • Posts: 20
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2013, 03:10:58 AM »
No problem.  I totally understand.

Honestly, some things on that site did strike me as odd and it did cross my mind that it might be denialist rhetoric  (it's even implied in the domain name).  I figured some of the ideas could be an adjunct to ART, not a replacement for it.  My point was only to echo what the OP said about probiotics and HIV hiding out in the gut. 

Offline Jeff G

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 12,100
  • How am I doing Beren ?
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2013, 10:11:18 AM »
No problem.  I totally understand.

Honestly, some things on that site did strike me as odd and it did cross my mind that it might be denialist rhetoric  (it's even implied in the domain name).  I figured some of the ideas could be an adjunct to ART, not a replacement for it.  My point was only to echo what the OP said about probiotics and HIV hiding out in the gut. 

Its always a dead giveaway when your see a sentence claiming diet or vitamins can control or cure Aids , its denialist crapola when you see that .  ;)   

Offline friskyguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Probiotics-Perhaps a way to increase CD4 counts?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2014, 12:48:23 AM »
So this is a good article with some updated research on "human testing" re the benefits of probiotic supplementation on reducing dangerous inflammation including gut inflammation (often undetectable/silent in many of us and which does not get nearly enough attention imo) and the increasing of important CD4 counts.

What was new to me is that probiotics also improve bone density  :)

Here is the link........

http://www.thebodypro.com/content/73123/the-fire-within-research-on-two-supplements-addres.html

"Probiotics have also been found to increase CD4+ cell counts, as seen in a study published in the Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology (Irvine et al). A second study conducted by AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF) on Ganeden BC30, which collected data that were later evaluated and published in the journal Retrovirology (Selbovitz et al), also found probiotic supplementation to increase CD4+ cell counts.

"We are learning more and more about the interaction between our gut and our immune system. It is such complex machinery that keeps bacteria inside the intestines and, in a majority of the cases, very tightly controlled. Occasionally it gets out of control and that's why people get illnesses.

There is more and more evidence that most likely some fragments of bacteria occasionally escape -- they make their way to our systemic circulation, our bloodstream -- and, of course, being a foreign object, the body will try to attack it and neutralize it. That leads to inflammation," Homayoon Khanlou, M.D., Chief of Medicine at AHF and lead investigator of this pilot study, stated in an article that appeared in A&U magazine.

Inflammation in the gut can cause bone loss and probiotics can improve bone density. A new study from Michigan State University, which was sponsored by the NIH and published in the Journal of Cellular Physiology, found that probiotic supplementation utilizing Lactobacillus reuteri, a probiotic shown to reduce inflammation, produced healthier bones.

Lead author Laura McCabe, Ph.D., a professor in the departments of physiology and radiology at Michigan State University, said, "We know that inflammation in the gut can cause bone loss, though it's unclear exactly why."




Sero converted Sept '10 / Confirmed + Dec '10
Jan '11, VL 9,500 / CD4 482 (32%)
Feb '11, VL 5,800 / CD4 680 (37%)
start Atripla
Mch '11, VL UD / CD4 700 (42%)
Jun  '11, VL UD / CD4 750 (43%)
swap to Kivexa and Efav. due to osteopenia diag. (DEXA) / kidney issues ( decline in eGFR to 77 )
start supplements - Vit D3 / Omega 3 / multivitamin / mini aspirin
Dec '11,  VL UD <20 /  CD4 670 (49%)  / CD4:CD8 = 1.4
all labs now within normal ranges
Mch '12,  VL UD / CD4 600 (51%)
Sep '12,  VL UD / CD4 810 (51%)
Mch '13   VL UD / CD4 965 (56%)
Sep '13   VL UD / CD4 (not taken)
Dec '13   VL UD / CD4 901 (35%) / CD4:CD8 = 1.1  /  eGFR > 100

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.