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Author Topic: Alternative Medication For HIV  (Read 8289 times)

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Offline Ecuro

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Alternative Medication For HIV
« on: July 05, 2012, 07:52:53 PM »
Hi my name is Ecuro and I was recently diagnosed with HIV, but have decided against taking conventional medication. I would like to take this moment to invite anyone who has any knowledge of alternative medicine for HIV from a clinical or personal experience to respond to this blog. I would be very interested in knowing what kind of approach you have taken or are taking and what your experience has been. :)

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 08:09:29 PM »
What are your numbers?

Online leatherman

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 10:09:27 PM »
there are no medications besides HAART (Highly Active Antiretroviral Therapy; see this page http://www.aidsmeds.com/list.shtml for a list of medications) that control/suppress HIV. There are no alternative therapies according to actual scientific research.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline aztecan

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 12:02:37 AM »
Hey Ecuro,

First, welcome to the forums. Glad you have joined in, not for your being a pozzie, but because you are now here with us.

Since you are recently diagnosed, I fear you may be jumping into decisions without sufficient research.

As a 27+ year survivor, I was around prior to the advent of the triple-drug therapy that is standard today.

During those early years, we tried just about everything you can think of: from Chinese herbal medicine, Ayurveda medicine, cleansings, nutritional supplements, electrostimulation, and others. One friend of mine had his blood taken out, much as they do in dialysis, had it heated and then replaced. It nearly killed him outright.

I wish I could say there were alternatives to the standard ARV therapy, but as Leatherman pointed out, there just isn't.

I don't know what your current labs show, but you certainly could do well using some alternative therapies for a time, just because your body has not yet become so weakened it starts to fail.

But, short of your being a long-term nonprogressor, which is a rarity, your body will begin to fail you as your immune system takes a continual beating from the virus.

I have watched many die from AIDS-related complications. It is not something I would recommend.

If you don't mind my asking, why have you decided to eschew meds, or at least, the "usual suspects," so to speak?

HUGS,

Mark
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 01:05:47 AM by aztecan »
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Ecuro

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 01:21:35 AM »
Hi Mark,

I have given my decision much thought and have concluded that at this point I will not be looking for conventional methods of treatment considering that the medication will not help in curing the condition, but rather will only slow it down. Seeing as this is the outcome, I feel that there may be other methods that will do the same without causing many of the devastating side effects. In the end I have come to terms with my condition and realize that either way my demise will come.

Ecuro

Offline Ecuro

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 01:29:09 AM »
Hi emeraldize,

have you tried any alternative therapies? Are they dependent on your viral load and CD4 count? I can not tell you my numbers as I have not had my viral load or CD4 count test.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 01:35:57 AM »
What devastating side effects are you worrying about ? The meds I'm on have a few side effects  , none of which are devastating .

I'm not picking at you so do not take it that way but I think perhaps you are not making a decision based on facts but rather on emotions . I also want to welcome you to the forum , its my hope you may feel differently about taking meds when and if you need them once you have interacted with some of us that have seen pretty dire days due to HIV and now are living pretty good lives because of all the new HIV meds at our disposal . 

Can you please share some more about why you are making the decision not to seek treatment ? 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 01:37:36 AM by jg1962 »

Offline sam66

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 01:43:24 AM »
Hi
   I would say yes, every thing is dependent on your no's. If your no's ( cd4, % , ) are low enough and the vl is high then you should be on conventional treatment.

     If the numbers are high then you could try vitamines high nutritional diet etc ,
     but always keep an eye on your no's
december 2007 diagnosed +ve ,

Online leatherman

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 03:01:20 AM »
I have given my decision much thought and have concluded that at this point I will not be looking for conventional methods of treatment considering that the medication will not help in curing the condition, but rather will only slow it down. Seeing as this is the outcome, I feel that there may be other methods that will do the same without causing many of the devastating side effects. In the end I have come to terms with my condition and realize that either way my demise will come.

Ecuro
I have been on treatment for nearly 20 yrs, a treatment which brought me back from the brink of an AIDS death. I have no devastating side effects and am nearly healthier than I was when I was infected 27 yrs ago - besides the emotional toll of AIDS stealing away my friends and 2 partners that is. ;) Oh, and of course the fact that I'm now nearly 30 yrs older too. LOL At 50, I'm having some eyesight issues, but I still go biking and hiking, and recently kept up with the teenagers at the amusement park (although some of the more "spin-y" rides do tend to make me queasy these days LOL)

Time and experience has shown the truth of the matter to be that the outcome without HAART is clearly a nasty AIDS death. However, the outcome with HAART, especially the modern triple-therapy regimens from the 2000's and on, so far has been a long enjoyable life with many years yet to come according to the research that has been done.

Wanting to throw out HAART just because it isn't the perfect cure seems awfully short-sighted when no other alternatives or methods have ever been shown to do any good. I would heartily suggest that you have not researched this illness and the treatment in enough detail if you have chosen to think that HAART medication is not the correct approach.

If you actually read the scientific information from the package insert for any HAART medication, you will see that only a very small percentage of people have side effects, and many of those side effects are of limited duration and of only minor consequence. Certainly some people do have some major issues, but they make up a very small percent. With so many options of HAART medications available, people experiencing side effects can often be switched to other medications which do not cause side effects. It can be a bit hit-or-miss at first to get the right combination; but once it's found, the viral load reduced and the immune system recovers many people these days continue to work, live, and love as "normal".

Of course, until you know more about your viral load and cd4 count, there's not much anyone can suggest about when you should start medications. Perhaps if you expressed which drugs you have doubts about, we could tell you more specifics to explain why HAART is the only therapy (really, there are no alternatives) that has any impact against HIV and why you, when the time is right, should clearly take HAART medications so that you don't die from an AIDS death.

Since you are someone newly diagnosed, I would also highly suggest that you spend some time reading through the Lessons section here at aidsmeds http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/Introduction_4702.shtml so that you understand enough about what HIV does, how the medications stop those actions, when to start meds, and what the test results mean. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 03:10:30 AM »
Hi Mark,

I have given my decision much thought and have concluded that at this point I will not be looking for conventional methods of treatment considering that the medication will not help in curing the condition, but rather will only slow it down. Seeing as this is the outcome, I feel that there may be other methods that will do the same without causing many of the devastating side effects. In the end I have come to terms with my condition and realize that either way my demise will come.

Ecuro

You are right in that there is no cure as of yet, however :
Not only will conventional therapy "slow it down", in fact it will stop the viral replication dead in it's track. Up till today NO other methods have proven to be as effective as the current "conventional therapy".
With an effective suppressed viralload, your immunesystem will get a chance to recover, and you'll be as if to speak out of danger (provided you adhere to the medications as prescribed, and mind your health).

Disregarding the current conventional therapy is a BIG MASTAKE, and I guarantee you will pay dearly for it in the future.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 06:52:15 AM »
Hi emeraldize,

have you tried any alternative therapies? Are they dependent on your viral load and CD4 count? I can not tell you my numbers as I have not had my viral load or CD4 count test.

Hi Ecuro,
 
I just wanted to get an understanding of the very basics: your current numbers. How long ago did you test positive? In what country do you reside ? 

Em

Offline Ann

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2012, 09:32:14 AM »

 the devastating side effects.


What devastating side effects? This isn't 1992, it's 2012. Most of the meds in use today are very well tolerated with little or no side effects. You're living in a modern country with an excellent health care system. You're not going to be given old meds like ddl or Crixivan or even AZT. Wise up.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline wolfter

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2012, 10:21:44 AM »
I would like to take this moment to invite anyone who has any knowledge of alternative medicine for HIV from a clinical or personal experience to respond to this blog. I would be very interested in knowing what kind of approach you have taken or are taking and what your experience has been. :)

For those of us who survived the AZT years, HAART is the alternative!!!!!   
Complacency is the enemy.  ;)  Challenge yourself daily for maximum  return on investment.

Offline LoboDog

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2012, 10:23:03 AM »
In the end I have come to terms with my condition and realize that either way my demise will come.

Ecuro

Hi Ecuro,

Everyone's demise will come... dying is part of life. The best anyone can hope for (poz or neg) is to stave off dying for as long as possible.

Having lived through the 90's and having seen people die left and right, I hope that you change your mind. Death by AIDS is generally not a fun way to go. Personally I would prefer to be hit by a bus, or a bolt of lightning, or something really quick. I'm still haunted by some memories of seeing walking skeletons, people that went blind, and way too many hospital visits. 

Of course you can make your own decisions...

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2012, 10:39:59 AM »
The only thing I can add id be very, very careful if you decide on alternative therapy. There are many folks out there selling snake oil, many who claim to cure HIV. All are bullshit. They , quite simply, are taking advantage of folks who are emotionally stressed. Some have died trying to avoid "conventional" medicine.     

 Proper nutrition is always a good idea poz or not. Supplimental vitamines, taken properly, will not hurt. But they will not stop the virus progress in your body.

 Please research everything before you take action.
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Online Buckmark

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2012, 11:06:21 AM »
I have given my decision much thought and have concluded that at this point I will not be looking for conventional methods of treatment considering that the medication will not help in curing the condition, but rather will only slow it down. Seeing as this is the outcome, I feel that there may be other methods that will do the same without causing many of the devastating side effects. In the end I have come to terms with my condition and realize that either way my demise will come.

Devastating side effects?  Please tell us which side-effects you are concerned about.  As others have testified here, the majority of today's medications for HIV are well-tolerated with little or no side-effects.

Here are the facts:

  • There is no "cure" for HIV which will eliminate the virus from your body.
  • "Conventional" medications prescribed by your physician help your body control the HIV virus.
  • No "alternative medications" or "nutritional supplements" will do either of these things for you.
  • If you don't take the prescription medications designed to control HIV, you will die of AIDS, or more specifically, one of the horrible opportunistic infections you get when you have AIDS
  • Everyone's "demise" will come at some point, so skipping medications because of your "impending demise" is just making excuses.

It's that simple, and you can make your own decision. 

Lastly, I would urge you to consider why you so strongly wish to avoid a treatment that is known and proven to work.  What makes you think you are so different and so special from everyone else who has HIV, and the 30 million or so people who have died of AIDS?

Henry

Edited to add:

You are squandering an opportunity for treatment that 30 million people, and many of my friends, simply didn't have.  That is why you are pissing me off, and probably the others here too.  We only wish that many of our friends had the opportunity to take these "conventional" HIV medications.  And yet you dismiss what is known and proven as an effectivce treatment, and what could have saved so many lives -- INCLUDING YOUR OWN!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 11:12:14 AM by Buckmark »
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline buginme2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2012, 11:09:23 AM »
1.  I think you're making a foolish decision.  With that being said lets talk about what "alternative" therapies you are going to try.

Selenium, Green Tea (with a high EGCG%), and Marijuana.

Those would be the three I would try.  At least there is some research on these.


Online Buckmark

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2012, 01:23:42 PM »
1.  I think you're making a foolish decision.  With that being said lets talk about what "alternative" therapies you are going to try.

Selenium, Green Tea (with a high EGCG%), and Marijuana.

Those would be the three I would try.  At least there is some research on these.

And what benefit do you think you would gain by trying these?  I'm all for improving health and well-being.  But if you are saying these will help fight HIV, show us the scientific studies.
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline buginme2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2012, 01:34:38 PM »
And what benefit do you think you would gain by trying these?  I'm all for improving health and well-being.  But if you are saying these will help fight HIV, show us the scientific studies.

Like I said I think he would be foolish to forgo ARV and go with "alternative" means of treating HIV.  However the three that I listed have been studied in the treatment of HIV.  Lets take Green Tea for example.  Here is a google/scholar result of studies for green tea. 

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Egcg+and+hiv+&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C48&as_sdtp=

I am curious what the OP plans on using for his treatment.  My options are at least better than magic water and some other things ive seen people post.

Offline karry

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2012, 01:43:23 PM »
I am not on treatment and in its been more than 5 years since diagnosis.

However, when the time for treatment comes, I have made up my mind to accept it with wide open arms, because I know how lucky I am to be living with HIV now, and not 25 years ago. I have read the posts of many long term survivors, and I think I have to be grateful for the options and hopes I have today. I am not going to play with the opportunity I have.

I wish you luck and hope you will ultimately make the right decision.
K.
Take it a day at a time....and be positive about it too!

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2012, 02:15:46 PM »
Welcome back, Etay!

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Joe K

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2012, 02:20:07 PM »
Welcome back, Etay!

Ecuro,

I will never understand anyone, who comes to this forum looking for information and experience and then, once receiving said, totally ignores all of it.  You haven't even had your first labs done, yet you know that conventional therapy is not for you.  How do you know that and on what do you base your decision?

Folks have already provided the truth about HIV and treatment options, as we know them to be supported by the science and experience.  If you wish to delude yourself, that somehow you will be that "one" person, who can treat their infection without using what works, who are we to argue?

I prefer spending my time helping folks who really do want to live.

Joe

Offline Raf

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2012, 02:29:23 PM »
Sorry man, but without the conventional therapy, I won't be writing this right now, aids would have finished me back in 2008 or 2009, so excuse me if I dismiss completely every other kind of "alternative" therapy.

I hope you don't have to suffer through aids after you initiate your "alternative" therapy, but I'm afraid that you'll do.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 02:37:22 PM by Raf »
Dx: 05/14/2008
Latest HIV Meds combo I've been taking:

Kaletra + Combivir (since 05/16/2008 - today)

Offline phildinftlaudy

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2012, 03:02:37 PM »
Before treatment:
1) GERD
2) Diverticulitis
3) Enlarged spleen
4) Bronchitis
5) Fatigue
6) Frequent colds, stomach problems
7) Declining CD4s and CD4 %

After treatment:
1) No GERD
2) No recurrences of diverticulitis
3) Spleen normal
4) No Bronchitis
5) Increased energy
6) No colds in 2+ years to speak of; no stomach problems (other than when I eat too much)
7) Highest CD4s (over 1,200) and CD4 % since infected
8) Work full-time, also do private consulting, pursuing my MBA, and helped to plan last year and this year's AMG (a gathering of those who know that treatment is effective; those who are grateful to know that today's treatments have minimal to no adverse side effects; those who may not be on treatment - but recognize that if the time comes that they need it they will be right there getting it; and those who saw the destruction and painful deaths of many of those they cared about due to either a lack of effective treatment at the time, lack of access to treatment, or refusal to follow scientifically-proven effective treatment)

To me the definition of "alternative medication for HIV" is - dying rather than living by taking HAART, when recommended by reputable medical professionals in consultation with their patient.

And BTW, HAART does not "slow down" the disease, but it actually stops it in its tracks and, in many cases, repairs some of the damage done.

I suggest you get to the root of why you really don't want to find out your levels (CD4s, Viral Load, etc) and why you don't want to take HAART, if needed. Otherwise, the adverse reaction you are posting about is not really related to the medications - The adverse reaction is your decision not to take the medications.

September 13, 2008 - diagnosed +
Labs:
Date    CD4    %   VL     Date  CD4  %   VL
10/08  636    35  510   9/09 473  38 2900  12/4/09 Atripla
12/09  540    30    60   
12/10  740    41  <48   
8/11    667    36  <20  
03/12  1,041  42  <20
05/12  1,241  47  <20
08/12   780    37  <20
11/12   549    35  <20
02/12  1,102  42  <20
11/12   549    35  <20

Offline Ecuro

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2012, 06:00:14 PM »
I thank you all for your input.


edited by Ann to remove reference and links to a denialist video.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:28:17 PM by Ann »

Offline anniebc

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2012, 06:15:28 PM »
Welcome back, Etay!

Ecuro

In case you don't understand what the about post means please let me explain.

Etay was a young man who came to the forum spouting the same thing you are doing now about not needing HAART, that alternative medicine will do him just fine, he ignored all the advise he was given, just like you are doing....he died within the year, such a waste, if he had listened he would still be with us today, but if this is what you want then that's your decision.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 06:16:59 PM by anniebc »
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2012, 07:32:01 PM »
I thank you all for your input. If you would like to view this documentary here is the link: (removed)

OK, two things.

First, your movie? It's denialist crap.



************

What you do to and with your body is absolutely your business. But this site dos not treat AIDS denialism with kid gloves. You keep promoting that shit and I will lead the torch-carrying mob to get rid of it.

Go down in flames if you want. You will not have the chance to take others here with you.

This forum is called "AIDSMEDS." There is no question mark nor asterisk at the end of the title.


edited by Ann to remove references to a denialist video.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:29:45 PM by Ann »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline buginme2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2012, 07:50:08 PM »
Why is it always all or nothing with the "Alternative Medicine" crowd?

If you want to try Alternative Medicine why cant you try it AND take conventional treatment?  Why must you forgo a proven medication for one that is unproven?

If you want to take Alternative Medicines fine!  Do some research, find out what works and what doesn't and compliment your conventional treatment with it.  No one can fault you for that. 


Offline forrest

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2012, 07:59:24 PM »
I watched that video actually... and what I don't understand... is how do you deny test after test of a Viral Load and CD count decline?  I mean... okay... so maybe you have a false positive... don't you follow up with VL and CD4?  If you have an undetectable VL, then yeah, the test was probably false positive?  But isn't it stupid to not also have VL and CD4, CD8, etc. test as well?  You can't deny that. I haven't looked into any denialism crap... don't have  desire... but how can multiple tests be wrong?!?!  How can all the numbers in my signature be wrong?  False positive? My ass!   :o
2011-03-26:  Tested Positive

Date           |VL        |CD4 |4%  |CD8 |8%  |C4:C8
2011-04-06 |48,653 |603 |32.0 |646 |35.0 |0.61
2011-05-23 |64,324 |577 |36.0 |576 |36.0 |1.00
2011-08-02 |18,319 |574 |36.3 |587 |37.2 |0.98
2011-12-06 |10,375 |480 |30.1 |616 |38.7 |0.78
2012-02-22 |  9,674 |570 |33.6 |655 |38.7 |0.87
2012-05-04 |  8,439 |559 |30.4 |706 |38.4 |0.79

Offline Joe K

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2012, 08:02:10 PM »
Why is it always all or nothing with the "Alternative Medicine" crowd?

Because most of them want others to share their views, that HIV is some mumbo jumbo disease that we don't know anything about.  It seems that every one of these folks, insist they know the truth about HIV and generally go on to prove that they don't by becoming ill and dying.

Just don't EVER POST LINK(S) TO DENIALIST CRAP ON THIS WEBSITE, or our Oracle of the Isle will ban you in a heartbeat.

Joe

Offline denb45

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2012, 08:12:55 PM »
BAM!!! so there we have it the  denialist crap rears it's ugly head again in this forum, I'm having feelling of Déjà vu all over my body.......PLEASE MAKE IT STOP...............UGH!  :-X
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline drewm

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2012, 08:28:57 PM »
There is no alternative medicine that has proven successful in the treatment of this virus.

Deny=DIE

Meds=LIFE

It's that simple.


It is your choice as to what you want to do with your own body but rest assured that HAART is the only...O-N-L-Y...way to control HIV/AIDS AND is the only treatment to actually reverse the numbers associated with this virus.

Diagnosed in  May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000


Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

Online mecch

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2012, 08:29:39 PM »
If I recall correctly, ETAY didn't believe in "alternative therapies". ETAY was one of those denialists who thought HIV was mythical. I don't think he thought it had to be treated.  Not with HAART.  Nor with  "alternative therapies*. Nor even with the most esoteric guru/treatment/belief imaginable.  Pure denial.

Dead. as. a doornail. 
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Mrmojorisin

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2012, 08:41:08 PM »
Ecuro,
 I watched the video...I cut if off right after he claimed he could cure HIV with "the right foods and the right water"..dude is a quack. Science has proven him wrong. I was only diagnosed a few months ago but I know bullshit when I see it. Listen to the long term folks on this site. They have seen and heard it all.
 Take conventional meds and live. Or try the alternatives and slowly waste away. Your choice.
Started Meds On 5/1/2012 Norvair, Truvada, Prezista, and Bactrim

4/17/2012--CD4 83/ VL 353,000  7.0%
5/15/2012--CD4 218/ VL 4,970    14.1%
6/27/2012--CD4 146/ VL 420      6.1%
10/11/2012-CD4-223/ VL-62       9.5%
2/14/2013--CD4-215/ VL-119      13.6%
7/3/2013---CD4-256/ VL-UD       18.0%
10/18/2013 CD4-223/ VL-UD       22.2%
01/23/2014-CD4-381/VL-UD       25.3%--Dropped the Bactrim

"arrrrhhhhh ahhrrhhhhh aaaarrhhh"- Chewbacca

Offline Ann

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2012, 09:42:48 PM »
Ecuro,

I removed the title and link you posted to a denialist video. We do not permit denialist disinformation in any way, shape or form here.

Repeated posting of denialist claptrap here will get you banned. Don't do it again.

From the Terms of Membership you agreed to when you created your account:

Quote


The premise of the AIDSmeds.com Forums, along with its parent site (AIDSmeds.com), is that HIV is the cause of AIDS. Individuals hoping to use the AIDSmeds.com Forums to disseminate “denialist” or “dissident” information will be automatically banned from the Forums.


Please consider yourself warned! This will be your ONLY warning.

Ann

PS - Ecuro, if you want to know more about how the denialists are downright dangerous people, have a read through the http://www.aidstruth.org/ website. It thoroughly debunks their outlandish claims.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:53:27 PM by Ann »
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Offline elf

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2012, 10:01:06 PM »
Alternative to HAART...We mostly know it from preHAART days...is not effective to be used as an alternative to HAART. It can improve numbers, but it's limited.

One of these CD4 raising drugs were interleukin-2 injections.


Quote
Ramelton is a medication recently approved by the FDA for treatment of insomnia. Ramelton is an analogue of melatonin with a higher affinity even than that of the natural ligand. Clinically this potentially strong effect of the ligand is blunted by the fact that upon oral ingestion there is first pass metabolism of greater than 95%. This liver metabolism is mediated by the CYP1A2 enzyme. It turns out that the medication fluvoxamine approved by the FDA for the treatment of obsessive compulsive disorder is a potent inhibitor of the CYP1A2 enzyme, with the effect that co-administration of ramelton and fluvoxamine increases blood levels of ramelton by 100-200 fold. It turns out that lymphocytes bear the melatnonin receptors and stimulation of these receptors on lymphocytes cause the lymphocytes to elaborate the pro-inflammatory cytokine interleukin-2 (Il-2). Thus, here we point out that co-administration of ramelton and modest doses of fluvoxamine may be able to smoothly produce increased levels of Il-2, this may be useful in diseases and conditions such as metastatic cancer and maintenance of suppression of the HIV virus.

Med Hypotheses. 2006;67(6):1389-90. Epub 2006 Aug 8.
Co-administration of ramelton and fluvoxamine to increase levels of interleukin-2.
Kast RE, Altschuler EL.
Source

Department of Psychiatry, University of Vermont, 2 Church Street, Burlington, VT 05401, United States. recast@email.com

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16893613

Endogenous IL-2 has shorter half-life and fewer side effects (compared to injections of synthetic IL-2)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 10:13:20 PM by elf »
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Online Jeff G

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2012, 11:09:58 PM »
Its always the same song and dance , they join the forum and ask about alternative treatments , say how awful HIV meds are and only answer questions we ask of them about why they don't want to explore conventional treatments in the most vague way they can get away with . This always = denialist .

Offline anniebc

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2012, 12:58:21 AM »
If I recall correctly, ETAY didn't believe in "alternative therapies". ETAY was one of those denialists who thought HIV was mythical. I don't think he thought it had to be treated.  Not with HAART.  Nor with  "alternative therapies*. Nor even with the most esoteric guru/treatment/belief imaginable.  Pure denial.

Dead. as. a doornail.

After several PM's back and forth with etay he told me he was trying some traditional Chinese Medicine, including Acupuncture, I don't recall the names of these meds, in fact if I recall right I couldn't even pronounce the names, so he did in fact take that route, but for how long I have no idea.

Jan
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Offline littleprince

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2012, 02:07:26 AM »
Ecuro,

I went about 6 years without medications (not by choice, I was too stupid to get tested earlier). Everything seemed great until I almost died from an AIDS related infection. Been on medications for 2 years now and I'm doing grrrreaat! Not sure what side effects you are talking about but I don't have them.

Offline agulha14

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »
Why is it always all or nothing with the "Alternative Medicine" crowd?

If you want to try Alternative Medicine why cant you try it AND take conventional treatment?  Why must you forgo a proven medication for one that is unproven?

If you want to take Alternative Medicines fine!  Do some research, find out what works and what doesn't and compliment your conventional treatment with it.  No one can fault you for that.
Because most of them want others to share their views, that HIV is some mumbo jumbo disease that we don't know anything about.  It seems that every one of these folks, insist they know the truth about HIV and generally go on to prove that they don't by becoming ill and dying.

Just don't EVER POST LINK(S) TO DENIALIST CRAP ON THIS WEBSITE, or our Oracle of the Isle will ban you in a heartbeat.

Joe

I wanted to weigh in on this, as a guy with HIV (for over 13 years), as well as a doctorate, two degrees in Chinese Medicine, and a medical practice specializing in complicated diagnoses.

I think there are two issues here that need to be addressed separately, and one of them is more or less being left off the table - that is, the well-being of the guy who made the initial post... I think the forum has been a bit harsh in its response to him; he's not a forum topic, and he's certainly not a threat - he is a fellow sufferer with HIV, and deserves our courtesy and respect for trying to find his way through this difficulty. Do you think he's on the wrong track? Well, which of us haven't been at times? Lighten up a bit, and leave some room for learning.

As for the question of the usefulness of alternative options...

I don't know of any respected approach to health that would say that HIV is 'mumbo-jumbo' - if you run across something like that, you can safely ignore it, in my opinion, as it will have little to offer you. Most alternative options - Naturopathy, Acupuncture/Chinese herbal medicine, Ayurveda, etc. - will have strange terminology but will acknowledge the wealth of research in the conventional medical tradition as a starting point for treating HIV.

Ecuro, I encourage you to keep an open mind to all of these options. Explore what alternatives you find, but don't close the door on conventional treatments. As someone recently diagnosed, you may not even need to consider HAART for some time, but you should keep up your labs, and monitor how things are going.

There are some powerful options out there to help us stay healthy. Chinese medicine is one I know well, and have some confidence in - but I would never suggest to a patient that it would be sufficient to keep you well without HAART. As time goes on the HAART options become more and more effective, with fewer and fewer complications. I think the combination of HAART and complementary options is extremely useful, and can keep people living normal, uncomplicated lives until their life reaches its full course.

Keep your options open, stay optimistic, and be confident that you will find the right pathway for yourself. The only person who loses if you choose to limit your options is yourself (well, and those who love you...).

all the best,

David
03/15/1999 - dx as HIV+
07/30/2003 - started HAART (Sustiva + Epzicom)
long history, not very interesting...
07/10/12 - started Atripla

Online Jeff G

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2012, 01:59:18 PM »
I think the forum did a pretty good job advising the OP  and was not harsh at all  , especially considering the fact he linked to a denialist web site I would say he was treated pretty well . Its also polite to address any questions forum members may have once you start a thread , something the OP never bothered to do .

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2012, 03:47:57 PM »
There are some powerful options out there to help us stay healthy. Chinese medicine is one I know well, and have some confidence in - but I would never suggest to a patient that it would be sufficient to keep you well without HAART. As time goes on the HAART options become more and more effective, with fewer and fewer complications. I think the combination of HAART and complementary options is extremely useful, and can keep people living normal, uncomplicated lives until their life reaches its full course.



HAART is useful.  Keeps an HIV+ person healthy. Is proven by vast research to slow HIV replication to a minuscule level.   HAART alone is sufficient for an HIV+ person to live a healthy life.  And even more so if it comes at the right time and the person is already in good shape before starting to take it.  So, exactly why does anyone need complimentary treatments for HIV? 

Not saying different kinds of medicine traditions aren't filled with wisdom. They can treat all sorts of health challenges.  And deserve respect.  But there's ONLY HAART that stops HIV replication.
 
You got good points about leaving space for all people to learn and not teaching ignorant people with ridicule.

Nevertheless, seems like more than a few recent threads where people with commercial interests in vitamins, or some non western medicines, continue to fuzz the line, as to what is actually treating the HIV infection.  HAART. Duh. Just HAART. 
And what is possibly useful for other health challenges anyone can face, HIV+ or HIV-.   

What we want to see is that the naive or ignorant HIV+ person learns and understand the priority and proven utility of "HAART when necessary".   

Any other "healthy living" ideas, diets, philosophies, treatment, ok ok ok.  But never hold these out as lures, to be invested in, with false hopes and sometimes VERY bad budgeting choices. 

Nothing nothing nothing Indian or China had to offers saved anyone dropping dead, and quite a few of us here watched those deaths.  Me, twice spending myself into debt paying for treatments for loved ones desperate to try something, and that did nothing to stop the death. 

Not a few of us carry this to the present day and are just deeply suspicious if we feel that anyone could be taken advantage of.  Which is not to say anything "non western" is going to be a rip off.  Rather it is to say -- RIP OFFS DID HAPPEN, THEY STILL HAPPEN.   And tough shit, really, if genuine, useful, honest heart felt "alternative healing" has to fight against his prejudice. ALL HIV+ people except long-term non regressors are dealing in LIFE AND DEATH decisions when they are making their treatment choices.  And many many many HIV+ people have very strict budgets available for their health care.  All over the world, it is important that not a penny is spent on something non useful if that penny was needed to get and stay on the HAART.  Really, how many people have the resources to be treated by both HIV specialists, and all the labs, and the HAART when needed, AND pursue complimentary medicine. 

Here in Switzerland, there was a little miracle last year.  As a brief experiment and sort of HUSH HUSH, they required all insurance companies to cover some basic complementary medicines in the basic insurance that everyone must have - the basic basic one.  How amazing is that?  But really, around the world, how many HIV+ people have this double resource?   

In any event, people coming into this forum with ignorance or denial have to face the important facts first. The necessity of HAART.  And dealing with all the attendant challenges that go into access to HAART and standard medical treatment for HIV infection.   When and if there is time, and resources, and interest, and efficacy, fine, pursue whatever helps you live better.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 04:05:33 PM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online mecch

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2012, 04:12:28 PM »
If traditional Chinese medicine has a treatment to stop HIV infection in a body, put it out there. If western medicine Chinese research has a treatment, put it out there. I would think if China had anything useful for HIV infection it would be in every pharmacy around the world by now.

If Indian medicine has an HIV treatment, lets see it! Bring it on. Surely the Indians would love to be the source of a cure or an effective treatment for HIV.

Submit complimentary treatment for HIV to national review boards, show the efficacy, and get insurance companies or national health cares to pay for them. 

Every nation around the world would love to learn that non-propriety herbs or chemicals can effectively treat HIV.   Bring it on.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 04:14:21 PM by mecch »
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2012, 04:19:09 PM »
This forum does a fantastic job of self-policing against denialist activity and snake-oil salespersons.

We certainly do not dismiss all alternative therapy. We simply state that ART is the only proven way to increase dc4 counts and decrease viral loads in persons with HIV.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

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Online leatherman

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2012, 04:21:02 PM »
Its also polite to address any questions forum members may have once you start a thread , something the OP never bothered to do .
yes, I noticed too that the OP has vanished for the last 5 days. The last thing he told us was that he's never even had lab work done. :o Finding out a base viral load and cd4 count is the very basic step one must take before determining how to treat their HIV. The OP hasn't even taken this first step before declaring he wouldn't take conventional meds and was looking for "alternatives".

I still think the OP needs to be studying the lessons here and learning about HIV and meds before he reaches any more "conclusions". Whatever information he has been using up to now to make his decisions has not been adequate for him to truly understand the facts about HIV and it's treatment. ;)
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Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2012, 04:29:47 PM »
yes, I noticed too that the OP has vanished for the last 5 days. The last thing he told us was that he's never even had lab work done. :o Finding out a base viral load and cd4 count is the very basic step one must take before determining how to treat their HIV. The OP hasn't even taken this first step before declaring he wouldn't take conventional meds and was looking for "alternatives".

I still think the OP needs to be studying the lessons here and learning about HIV and meds before he reaches any more "conclusions". Whatever information he has been using up to now to make his decisions has not been adequate for him to truly understand the facts about HIV and it's treatment. ;)

We are regularly trolled by denialists (and 14 year olds who are on suspension from school) in these forums. Not terribly often, but often enough. It makes me wonder whether certain posters are, in fact, actually HIV positive.

But yes, there have been (and likely still are) coordinated "attacks" on this site from those who wish to disrupt us using misinformation and undermining our scientific credibility. Usually, a moderator will catch an IP address blunder and such - but sometimes a person gets through.

That is why I try, often without success, to sit on my hands when someone comes in with an "immaculate infection" without correcting their mis/disinformation.

The credibility of this site is important to me, as I imagine it is to most members who use it for scientific inquiry.

I hope that only rattles the feathers of birds whose feathers need rattling.

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Offline emeraldize

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2012, 04:48:18 PM »
This forum does a fantastic job of self-policing against denialist activity and snake-oil salespersons.

We certainly do not dismiss all alternative therapy. We simply state that ART is the only proven way to increase dc4 counts and decrease viral loads in persons with HIV.

Agreed. There's almost an odor that comes with some posts. And I'm a junior compared to jk, mtd, mods and others.

Re: alternative therapy. I use acupuncture, have for years pre- and post-dx. However, I use it for what it can address and my CD4 and VL counts are not on that list.

Offline agulha14

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2012, 04:49:51 PM »
I seem to have stirred up the hornet's nest with my comments about keeping options open with regard to Chinese medicine. Perhaps I should clarify (you are also welcome to re-read my earlier post a little more carefully  ;)):

Chinese medicine does not cure HIV. Neither does any other alternative medicine, to the best of our knowledge.

My extensive experience has been that, in combination with HAART medicines, Chinese medicine (and perhaps others, but about these I can't speak from experience) can help a person remain healthy - that is, limiting side-effects, limiting HAART treatment failure, increasing quality of life, assisting recovery from illness, and so on. That sounds like a worthy point to make.

I am not advocating taking a light hand with denialist crap. I have no patience for that, and see it as one of the worst forms of misinformation put out to people suffering with this virus. It's a case of love-the-confused-hate-the-confuser.

Health, and finding health, is not an 'us vs. them' proposition. HAART does not cure sore throats, and may in fact cause them. HAART does not enable one to sleep well, and in fact often intrudes significantly on that necessary aspect of healing. In those cases, other forms of medicine may be very useful, to help keep the body strong, and ready to fight to be at its absolute resilient best.

All the best,

David
03/15/1999 - dx as HIV+
07/30/2003 - started HAART (Sustiva + Epzicom)
long history, not very interesting...
07/10/12 - started Atripla

Offline buginme2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2012, 05:20:40 PM »


My extensive experience has been that, in combination with HAART medicines, Chinese medicine (and perhaps others, but about these I can't speak from experience) can help a person remain healthy

FUNNY, it hasn't done much for the Chinese

http://www.avert.org/aidschina.htm

Online Jeff G

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2012, 05:32:19 PM »
No mad hornets stirring around here , in fact this whole thread has been an example of the forum exhibiting our best manners .

Its a post and respond kind of thing and sometime people don't care for the advice they get .   

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2012, 07:15:38 PM »
No mad hornets stirring around here , in fact this whole thread has been an example of the forum exhibiting our best manners .

Its a post and respond kind of thing and sometime people don't care for the advice they get .   

Yep. Though I have never tried acupuncture, I would absolutely be open to the notion. I have been on a few chiropractic studies to see whether spine adjustment impacted cd4 counts in lieu of HAART (it does not) but I am a BIG proponent of using every bit of the available arsenals to fight this virus and the many conditions that spring from it's existence.

Many of these conditions are depression, anxiety, guilt, fatigue, and so on. Meditation, massage, the use of aromatherapy, herbs, dietary and lifestyle changes can all help the body not only heal, but maintain it's fight against HIV without having to also fight other situations.

Of course, a lot of herbs and stuff are far from benign (it always frustrates/amuses me when people at the SAME TIME rely/advocate herbal stuff as very powerful and NEVER talk about them with their doctors to determine if there are unwanted interactions. Shit's either strong or not, amirite?) and it's easy to get lost/waterlogged with information (both valid and in) unless one has a strong idea of what they are doing, or trust someone who does have that knowledge to guide them.

My school of thought is along the lines of, never let someone give you health advice until and unless you would be willing to buy - and eat - shrimp from them.

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Online mecch

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2012, 08:59:49 PM »
limiting HAART treatment failure,
Welcome to the forum by the way.
Why don't you open a new thread and explain how Chinese medicine limits HAART treatment failure. This is a new one to me and I would be interested to learn more.

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Online leatherman

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2012, 10:14:08 PM »
Chinese medicine limits HAART treatment failure. This is a new one to me and I would be interested to learn more.
for sure.  ;)
silly me, ::) I always thought that just staying properly adherent to a med regimen usually limited HAART treatment failure.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


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Offline anonomous

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2012, 05:09:51 AM »
hi Guys and Gals

Well im new at this forum and i have read alot of things and some of which is very confussing, i was diagnosed hiv positive 3 weeks ago so its still very fresh for me,i read all thay you guys had to say in this regard and i think some people need to say what they mean and hold nothing against any of you for doing that, i want to thank you all for the advice and the facts of HAART medications, i must say i am very scared of this as i hear all kind of nasty things that this medicine can do to one and how sick it really can make you but hell if it saves my life then i say bring it on,my doctor at the clinic told me that my cd4 count is 533 above normal which is a good thing, but at the same time she put me on her vitamins and told me to eat healthy, i just want to know is this the way to go as i dont need the HAART right at this time but in the meantine i want to know if this is a good thing as i declare it foir now as an alternative.Any advice would be greatly appreciated as you guys know alot more than what i do at this stage and i dont know what my viral load is as the doctor did not mention this so i gather it must bge undetectable or vcan i be wrong in saying that?

Offline Ann

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2012, 06:11:03 AM »
limiting HAART treatment failure,

Welcome to the forum by the way.
Why don't you open a new thread and explain how Chinese medicine limits HAART treatment failure. This is a new one to me and I would be interested to learn more.


for sure.  ;)
silly me, ::) I always thought that just staying properly adherent to a med regimen usually limited HAART treatment failure.

I could be wrong, but what I think David means is that if one can alleviate or eliminate med side-effects through the use of some sort of alternative therapy, that would help a person remain adherent, thereby limiting the chance of treatment failure.

Let's face it, some people who aren't adherent, aren't adherent because they get fed up with side-effects.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Online mecch

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2012, 08:15:33 AM »
hi Guys and Gals

Well im new at this forum and i have read alot of things and some of which is very confussing, i was diagnosed hiv positive 3 weeks ago so its still very fresh for me,i read all thay you guys had to say in this regard and i think some people need to say what they mean and hold nothing against any of you for doing that, i want to thank you all for the advice and the facts of HAART medications, i must say i am very scared of this as i hear all kind of nasty things that this medicine can do to one and how sick it really can make you but hell if it saves my life then i say bring it on,my doctor at the clinic told me that my cd4 count is 533 above normal which is a good thing, but at the same time she put me on her vitamins and told me to eat healthy, i just want to know is this the way to go as i dont need the HAART right at this time but in the meantine i want to know if this is a good thing as i declare it foir now as an alternative.Any advice would be greatly appreciated as you guys know alot more than what i do at this stage and i dont know what my viral load is as the doctor did not mention this so i gather it must bge undetectable or vcan i be wrong in saying that?

Have you read the information people have given to follow up your posts in other threads? 
Have you started to read the lessons here?
One thing you can do is open a new thread, just for yourself, and ask all your questions so people can see the responses you are getting and how to add to them.

Zinc Fingers is NOT a treatment or cure of HIV.  It is a research idea.

There is only one treatment for HIV infection - anti-retroviral medicine.

The vitamins your doctor prescribed are not treating your HIV infection.  He or she thought they were a good idea for something else.  All HIV+ people are encouraged to eat healthy, and take some supplements for very specific challenges, none of which are stopping HIV replication.  Your immune system is not in a crisis situation, so you have time to learn about HIV and HIV treatment before you will need to start it.

Finally, HIV treatment is not toxic. But you can start to learn exactly about the HIV drugs that are routinely available in your country.  Get the names and post the names here.  Yes, there are older drugs that do cause some people some pretty serious challenges.  Are they still used in your country, and who gets them.  You should ONLY be worried about that if someday you might have to take these older drugs.  If not, then those miseries apply to other people, and another time, NOT you.   Many people nowadays follow "first line" HIV medicine with little to know side effects.  They lead normal lives as far as their health goes.  Stigma and discrimination and bias - that is another issue!

Any time you are reading about HIV, or HIV treatments, you need to pay attention to the date of the articles, the date of the research, and what HIV+ people are in the sample of the research.   People who have had HIV for 15, 25 years, taking part in a research may or may not have any experiences that would apply to you.   

Medicine is not poison or toxic.   These are common fears in the world, but its not based on the reality.  It is not describing the situation now in 2012 for many HIV+ people taking medicine.   It may  have NOTHING to do with your experience with HIV and HIV medicine going forward.

Does that makes sense to you?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 08:18:02 AM by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline agulha14

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2012, 08:49:01 AM »
FUNNY, it hasn't done much for the Chinese

http://www.avert.org/aidschina.htm

I'd have thought we were all aware of the limits of government policy in dealing with AIDS. The Chinese government has strenuously denied until very recently that they even have AIDS sufferers in China, just as they denied until recently the possibility of gay Chinese.

Under the totalitarian regime of the Chinese government, people with AIDS are not given treatment options, so their morbidity and mortality rates serve only as an indicator of how inhuman and bigoted their leadership are.

David
03/15/1999 - dx as HIV+
07/30/2003 - started HAART (Sustiva + Epzicom)
long history, not very interesting...
07/10/12 - started Atripla

Online mecch

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2012, 10:31:03 AM »
I could be wrong, but what I think David means is that if one can alleviate or eliminate med side-effects through the use of some sort of alternative therapy, that would help a person remain adherent, thereby limiting the chance of treatment failure.

Let's face it, some people who aren't adherent, aren't adherent because they get fed up with side-effects.

So wouldn't the choice of words be:  "helps for treatment adherence". 

You see my cynical, critical mind sees the phrase "limiting HAART treatment failure" and that could be interpreted as implying that HAART fails, as in its not always effective medicine.  Like in the old days when it could fail.  HAART failure nowadays is a very rare thing. Right? Doc got to find the right combo to take into account resistances.  Maybe absorption issues.  Both challenges rather rare.  But the chemicals work.  People don't adhere, that is conceptually different challenge.


"limiting HAART treatment failure" - this is an example of the fuzzy wording, the blurring the lines, the obfuscation.   No doubt you, agulha12 are very acutely aware of what works where.  But right and left in these threads and in the world, you have newbies who are completely confused and the first step is coming to terms with the basics... Not all the complimentaries.... Which can and do suck people away from the basics till they get in such terrible shape, its difficult to be patched up with HAART.  Or they just die, still in denial.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline agulha14

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2012, 10:15:04 PM »
So wouldn't the choice of words be:  "helps for treatment adherence". 

You see my cynical, critical mind sees the phrase "limiting HAART treatment failure" and that could be interpreted as implying that HAART fails, as in its not always effective medicine.  Like in the old days when it could fail.  HAART failure nowadays is a very rare thing. Right? Doc got to find the right combo to take into account resistances.  Maybe absorption issues.  Both challenges rather rare.  But the chemicals work.  People don't adhere, that is conceptually different challenge.

"limiting HAART treatment failure" - this is an example of the fuzzy wording, the blurring the lines, the obfuscation.   No doubt you, agulha12 are very acutely aware of what works where.  But right and left in these threads and in the world, you have newbies who are completely confused and the first step is coming to terms with the basics... Not all the complimentaries.... Which can and do suck people away from the basics till they get in such terrible shape, its difficult to be patched up with HAART.  Or they just die, still in denial.

I begin to get the impression that Mecch and I have a disagreement about language, as much as anything - either that or a simple personality conflict. I am not interested in having a cat-fight about this. I am in favor of HAART meds, always. Do I need to say it yet again? But the truth is it seems that most of you have understood my comments as they were intended.

I do not see Chinese medicine as an alternative to HAART meds. I do not see anything as an alternative to HAART meds - Mecch, I have stated this clearly in every post I put on this forum. For some reason, you seem to have decided to take offense at everything I have said - without actually reading for comprehension.

In every topic I have seen about specific meds, there have been references to side-effects, and in many of them the person posting refers to having to change protocols because of those side-effects, or as least being faced with that possibility. In many of the posts, the signatures of the person posting show a history of changing medicine regimens. Chinese medicine can help address side-effects, and thereby limit problems with treatments (if you are skeptical about this, I invite you to do your own research... you will find plenty of evidence to help you understand it if you have room for it). If by addressing complications with medications - and I treat patients daily who have exactly this kind of concern - I am able to help them get the most out of their pharmaceutical treatments, and keep their physical and emotional strength up, how could that be perceived as a threat to the treatment they are on?

When you have a headache, do you not take something for it, in addition to your HAART meds? When you get a cold, do you not take medicines that make it easier to breathe, knowing that they don't actually cure the cold, but rather because you know that when your body isn't fighting symptoms so strenuously it can actually heal much more quickly from the cold? How then is what you do for yourself any different than what I have said in my posts?

No, don't answer that. There's no need.

David
03/15/1999 - dx as HIV+
07/30/2003 - started HAART (Sustiva + Epzicom)
long history, not very interesting...
07/10/12 - started Atripla

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2012, 10:49:58 PM »
If you spend much time around here you'll soon learn Frau Mecch loves to hear herself talk. Jumps feet first into a thread without taking the time to actually read what someone posted. Do like the rest of us and skip right over her posts. They're mindlessly redundant.

Online leatherman

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2012, 10:59:58 PM »
So wouldn't the choice of words be:  "helps for treatment adherence". 

You see my cynical, critical mind sees the phrase "limiting HAART treatment failure" and that could be interpreted as implying that HAART fails, as in its not always effective medicine.
the problem, agulha, actually comes from hanging out in these forums. ;) Once you've been around for a while, you'll see that AIDS denialists and HAART denialists frequently make the rounds. The newbies, desperate for a cure or alternative therapies, are often confused by the tales of these denialists. Needless to say, many of us are quick to stop these denialists, or just people posting incorrect information, from spreading their falsehoods and nonsense.

Your second post into these forums clearly spoke about "alternative therapies" which does not sound right when one knows that the only therapy for HIV is HAART. The word "alternative" implies a replacement of HAART not an "additional" treatment for a side effect. You also used the words "limiting HAART treatment failure" which doesn't sound right as the only thing that causes HAART treatment failure is non-adherence.

Both Mecch and I questioned your verbiage, to which you responded that we should re-read what you wrote. Perhaps since we said that we didn't understand you, it should be up to YOU to re-word what you said, not for us to re-read the same words that confused us.

Let me give you a quick example:
I've taken Immodium for many yrs to deal with side effects that I have had with several meds. I would never call Immodium an "alternative therapy" nor would I say that Immodium "limits HAART failure". I would say that Immodium is an additional therapy to deal with a side effect, and that by removing a side effect I can remain more adherent to my regimen so that it doesn't fail.

I do not see Chinese medicine as an alternative to HAART meds. I do not see anything as an alternative to HAART meds
....
When you have a headache, do you not take something for it, in addition to your HAART meds? .... How then is what you do for yourself any different than what I have said in my posts?
ah! notice that when you did rewrite your words so that Mecch would better understand, what you said this time was different. This time you said that chinese medicine is NOT an alternative therapy, and that you would take an ADDITIONAL medication to deal with a side effect. You didn't even bother to confuse the issue by saying that these additional medications would "limit HAART failure" by helping you to feel better and remain adherent.

Clearly if you had used the verbiage you used this second time around, without using confusing terms like "alternative therapies" or alternatives that "stopped HAART from failing", we wouldn't have had the confusion that made us wonder if you were a HAART denialist believing in alternative treatments for HIV.
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline Ann

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2012, 08:17:53 AM »
I never had a problem understanding what David meant, and I'm the freaking Commander-in-Chief of the Anti-Denialist Army around here. There was never any indication that he was anti-ART or was advocating using alternative therapies instead of ART.

~sigh~
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2012, 09:58:29 AM »
I never had a problem understanding what David meant, ........ There was never any indication that he was anti-ART or was advocating using alternative therapies instead of ART.

~sigh~

Me too.


Offline Joe K

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »
I never had a problem understanding what David meant, and I'm the freaking Commander-in-Chief of the Anti-Denialist Army around here. There was never any indication that he was anti-ART or was advocating using alternative therapies instead of ART.

~sigh~

Enough with the semantic gymnastics already.  He was talking about additional therapies, for possible side effects from ART therapy.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Joe

Offline eric48

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2012, 06:31:00 PM »
Hi my name is Ecuro and I was recently diagnosed with HIV, but have decided against taking conventional medication.

Some one else thought he was smarter than docs: he lost 9 precious months of treatment in vain. Name: Steeve Jobs. Rings a bell?

For purely capitalistic and corporate greed reasons, the production of HIV meds is less than the world's population of people living with HIV needs.

The meds you won't take (if you are elligible) , some one else will benefit from.... 

This is a statement I hate to say, but, unfortunatly, this statement is not untrue.

Please put some thoughts on that

Eric
NVP/ABC/3TC/... UD; CD4 > 1000; CD4/CD8 ~ 2.0

Offline Theyer

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2012, 03:06:58 AM »
If you spend much time around here you'll soon learn Frau Mecch loves to hear herself talk. Jumps feet first into a thread without taking the time to actually read what someone posted. Do like the rest of us and skip right over her posts. They're mindlessly redundant.

They are not at all mindlessly redundant and as for skipping over them I welcome his contributions .
theyer/michael

typo ed.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 03:12:19 AM by Theyer »
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2012, 09:38:54 AM »

I thought this thread was as good as any place to post this article:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/247794.php


Why The Human Body Cannot Fight HIV Infection
Main Category: HIV / AIDS
Also Included In: Immune System / Vaccines
Article Date: 15 Jul 2012 - 0:00 PDT



Why The Human Body Cannot Fight HIV Infection



University of Washington researchers have made a discovery that sheds light on why the human body is unable to adequately fight off HIV infection.

The work, directed by Dr. Michael Gale, Jr., a professor in the Immunology Department, will be featured in the August print issue of the Journal of Virology.

The researchers discovered that the viral protein vpu, which is created by HIV during infection, directly interferes with the immune response protein IRF3 to dampen the ability of the immune system to protect against virus infection.

"By understanding exactly what HIV does to hamper the innate immune response during early infection, we can develop a clearer picture of how the virus is able to evade immunity to establish a long-term infection," said Dr. Brian Doehle, a postdoctoral fellow and lead author of the article.

The research expanded on an earlier discovery by the Gale lab that HIV directly antagonizes the early innate immune response in infected cells by impairing IRF3 function.

The new studies found that the HIV protein vpu specifically binds to the immune protein IRF3 and targets it for destruction, thereby, preventing IRF3 from functioning to trigger an immune response within the infected cell.

The scientists also found that HIV strains engineered to lack vpu, which is made during infection, did not impair the immune response.

"We have effectively identified a new Achilles heel in the arsenal that HIV uses to overcome the defenses present in the body's immune system", stated Dr. Gale. "This knowledge can be used to design new HIV antiviral therapeutics that prevent vpu from interacting with IRF3 and targeting it for destruction, thus enhancing immunity.

The development of new HIV antiviral therapeutics is critical to successfully treating HIV-infected people. Even though HIV antiviral therapeutics have already been developed and can effectively treat HIV infections, over time they lose their effectiveness due to the ability of the virus to adapt and spread despite the therapy, said Gale. "Therefore, the identification of new targets for treatment therapy is essential to providing the most effective treatment for HIV-infected patients".

Gale's laboratory has already begun translating the knowledge from these discoveries to tracking the molecular events that occur in patients during infection.

Arjun Rustagi, an MD/PhD student in the UW Medical Scientist Training Program, has developed a procedure to measure IRF3 activity in human blood cells. This new methodology will be used to measure IRF3 function over the course of HIV infection -- from the early stages of acute infection to the later stages of chronic infection that lead to AIDS.

By linking IRF3 function with infection over time, researchers will be able to understand how antiviral therapeutics that are designed to improve IRF3 function might impact the overall course of the disease in an HIV-infected individual.
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline Rockin

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2012, 10:23:51 AM »
At the end of the day "alternative treatments" to me sound like a placebo. If a wise-looking Chinese guy offers you some herbs and say they will make you feel better you might feel better just because of what the guy said.

However...I had a back problem once because of gym training and I did some acupunture sessions and oh boy...it really really works. I highly recommend it for any sort of physical pain.

Offline agulha14

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2012, 11:53:10 AM »
the problem, agulha, actually comes from hanging out in these forums. ;) Once you've been around for a while, you'll see that AIDS denialists and HAART denialists frequently make the rounds. The newbies, desperate for a cure or alternative therapies, are often confused by the tales of these denialists. Needless to say, many of us are quick to stop these denialists, or just people posting incorrect information, from spreading their falsehoods and nonsense.

Your second post into these forums clearly spoke about "alternative therapies" which does not sound right when one knows that the only therapy for HIV is HAART. The word "alternative" implies a replacement of HAART not an "additional" treatment for a side effect. You also used the words "limiting HAART treatment failure" which doesn't sound right as the only thing that causes HAART treatment failure is non-adherence.

Both Mecch and I questioned your verbiage, to which you responded that we should re-read what you wrote. Perhaps since we said that we didn't understand you, it should be up to YOU to re-word what you said, not for us to re-read the same words that confused us.

Let me give you a quick example:
I've taken Immodium for many yrs to deal with side effects that I have had with several meds. I would never call Immodium an "alternative therapy" nor would I say that Immodium "limits HAART failure". I would say that Immodium is an additional therapy to deal with a side effect, and that by removing a side effect I can remain more adherent to my regimen so that it doesn't fail.
ah! notice that when you did rewrite your words so that Mecch would better understand, what you said this time was different. This time you said that chinese medicine is NOT an alternative therapy, and that you would take an ADDITIONAL medication to deal with a side effect. You didn't even bother to confuse the issue by saying that these additional medications would "limit HAART failure" by helping you to feel better and remain adherent.

Clearly if you had used the verbiage you used this second time around, without using confusing terms like "alternative therapies" or alternatives that "stopped HAART from failing", we wouldn't have had the confusion that made us wonder if you were a HAART denialist believing in alternative treatments for HIV.

My apologies to everyone in this forum concerned about my use of the word 'alternative' - it is the standard term used to refer to non-pharmaceutical treatments for anything and everything. Even the shorthand 'CAM,' which I also see used without challenge in these forums, means 'complementary and alternative medicine.'

As an acupuncturist and Chinese herbalist with a specialty in complex diseases, I don't see acupuncture as an 'alternative' to anything - I, of course, see it as a powerful medical tool with the ability to do good for those who use it wisely. As a patient who takes Atripla to control his HIV, I don't see acupuncture or Chinese herbs as an 'alternative' to HAART. Nevertheless, 'alternative' is the term applied to Chinese medicine by the larger medical community, so I use the term in that sense.

best to all,

David
03/15/1999 - dx as HIV+
07/30/2003 - started HAART (Sustiva + Epzicom)
long history, not very interesting...
07/10/12 - started Atripla

Offline Rockin

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2012, 11:57:53 AM »
My apologies to everyone in this forum concerned about my use of the word 'alternative' - it is the standard term used to refer to non-pharmaceutical treatments for anything and everything. Even the shorthand 'CAM,' which I also see used without challenge in these forums, means 'complementary and alternative medicine.'

As an acupuncturist and Chinese herbalist with a specialty in complex diseases, I don't see acupuncture as an 'alternative' to anything - I, of course, see it as a powerful medical tool with the ability to do good for those who use it wisely. As a patient who takes Atripla to control his HIV, I don't see acupuncture or Chinese herbs as an 'alternative' to HAART. Nevertheless, 'alternative' is the term applied to Chinese medicine by the larger medical community, so I use the term in that sense.

best to all,

David

Maybe its best to say "additional treatment" or "holistic treatment" or something to avoid confusion.

Online Jeff G

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2012, 12:57:33 PM »
David has said a dozen times Alternative medicine isn't a replacement for ART , if anybody is still confused about this I doubt anything he calls it will help clear this up amongst the hair splitters .

Offline buginme2

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2012, 01:14:46 PM »
I don't think anyone has an issue with complimentary therapies.

I tried accupuncture for awhile for some nerve damage I had.  I personally didn't care for it.  However, I have complimented my treatment with diet (I'm a big fan of green tea), exercise, even considered seeing a naturopath.

Its all in how you frame your message.

Offline Assurbanipal

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Re: Alternative Medication For HIV
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2012, 01:30:37 AM »
There are many different HIV drugs these days.  Each of them goes through rigorous testing for safety and efficacy.  If you are experiencing side effects why wouldn't the first choice for managing side effects be exploration of a different HIV combo rather than adding an "alternative" therapy?

This is not an option for everyone -- some treatment-experienced folks have limited numbers of drug options.  But most people have options these days.

While there has been some rigorous scientific research into alternatives, it is pretty limited and rarely rises to the standard of scientific testing used to look at efficacy of modern HAART (e.g. double blind studies).

And clearly it is simpler in the long run to just be on meds than to be on meds plus alternative medicine.

Why are people so reluctant to change meds to manage side effects?  It is as if risk aversion only applies to carefully tested medicine not to alternatives. Is it as simple as the fact that tested drugs are compelled by law to list what might go wrong, while alternatives get a free pass leading people to assume they are less risky simply because their risks are not studied?



5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%

 


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