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Author Topic: HIV from touching vagina?  (Read 4329 times)

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Offline TheRealBigSol

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HIV from touching vagina?
« on: June 25, 2012, 12:44:09 PM »
I know you can't contract HIV from kissing and it doesn't matter if you're kissing Halle Berry or Yuckmouth from the old Saturday cartoons. I'm also pretty certain oral sex is an HIV-safe sexual activity. Here's where my confusion sets in. My last test was at St. Louis Effort for AIDS in St. Louis, MO. They have POZ magazine in the office. The people at STL Effort told me that oral sex is a low-risk activity for HIV. They're message pretty much mirrors the CDC. This site, Medhelp and the American Social Health Association emphatically tell poster after poster and caller after caller they can get blown until doomsday and it won't make a difference relative to HIV. A nurse at Planned Parenthood once told me that people are told that oral sex carries an HIV risk because of the very real risk of other STDs. Basically, HIV scares the crap out of people and the others...well...not so much. By telling people that oral carries an HIV risk, it discourages some from engaging in risky behavior. What's the deal? Who should we believe?

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Confusion over kissing and oral
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 12:50:07 PM »
No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS: Volume 16(17) 22 November 2002 pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan
Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117
Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Confusion over kissing and oral
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 01:10:04 PM »
Oral sex is one of the most common of sexual activities. Receiving oral is definitely not a risk.

I would never say it's impossible to become infected by giving oral. But the overwhelming evidence of longterm studies argues against it as a risk. Your saliva contains over a dozen elements and proteins which very effectively prevent the transmission of viable VIH. Considering how much oral sex happens, if it was a for real risk we would have known about it decades before today.

Of course if you have really terrible oral care, (and I mean TERRIBLE), or a gaping fresh and bleeding wound in your that would not be the moment to be giving anyone oral sex.

As with everything sexual, you need to think for yourself and not do anything you are not comfortable with. It's about being responsible for your own health and understanding that to have sex is to some extent to be taking a chance of acquiring an STD.
Andy Velez

Offline TheRealBigSol

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HIV from touching vagina?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 05:45:29 PM »
I know this sounds silly, but I was fooling around with a woman recently (kissing, sucking on nipples, aka foreplay). I rubbed her vagina several times while she stroked my penis. We both wanted to have sex, but she didn't want to use a condom. That was a deal breaker and I left. Is there any way I could have contracted HIV by touching her vagina with my hand and transferring it when I touched my own penis during foreplay. Again, we did not have oral or penetrative sex of any kind.

Thanks!

Offline RapidRod

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Re: HIV from touching vagina?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 06:01:37 PM »
Please do not start a new thread every time you have another question or thought - regardless if you think your questions are related to each other or not. It helps us to help you when you keep all your thoughts or questions in one thread and it helps other readers to follow the discussion. Additional threads will be merged.

If you cannot find your thread, click on the "Show own posts" link in the left-hand column of any forum page, under your name.

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: HIV from touching vagina?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 03:42:30 AM »
Sol,

I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep everything in one thread. It doesn't matter how long it has been since you last posted in your thread or if the subject matter is different.

If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.

I also rejected the new account you tried for when you discovered you couldn't post more than three times. I removed your last post (your "So, do I need to move my question?" response to Rod) so you have one free post left - use it wisely. Don't try to create a new account again as we are very strict about our one membership per person rule. If you have further questions after your third post, you'll have to take out a subscription. See the top of the page.

Please also read through the Welcome Thread so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.





Of course you cannot end up with hiv simply by touching a vagina. Not even if you touch yourself afterwards.

Hiv is a fragile, difficult to transmit virus that is primarily transmitted INSIDE the human body as in unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse where the virus never leaves the confines of the two bodies.

Once outside the body, small changes in temperature, and pH and moisture levels all quickly damage the virus and render it unable to infect. For this reason, any vaginal fluids on your hands are not a problem - they are OUTSIDE the body.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL sexually transmitted infections together.

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex without a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

WHILE YOU DO NOT NEED TO TEST OVER TOUCHING A VAGINA, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results.

Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv. Some of the other STIs can be present with no obvious symptoms, so the only way to know for sure is to test.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline TheRealBigSol

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Re: HIV from touching vagina?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 12:19:33 PM »
Alright, I know this is my last free post, but I'm really confused. I was recently told by a prevention specialist with an AIDS-support organization that performing cunnilingus on a woman is a risk for contacting HIV. She went into this whole to do about brushing your teeth before a date and how the abrasions from brushing your teeth could lead to ways for HIV getting in the body because of the vaginal secretions women put out during oral sex (or any kind of sex for that matter). I'm pretty sure I know what Ann is gonna say, but this woman sounded convincing. I told her that I've heard of dental dams, but I can't find them anywhere. They're certainly not next to the condoms at the drug store. She suggested using plastic wrap. I certainly won't get infected then, because I won't be having sex. What woman wants her flower covered with plastic wrap? Anyway, please put this to rest for me once and for all.

Thanks!

Offline RapidRod

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Re: HIV from touching vagina?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 02:21:51 PM »
She gave you outdated information.  You never had an exposure.

Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: HIV from touching vagina?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 04:24:53 PM »
Sol,

Hiv transmission doesn't stand a chance of happening via female genitals to mouth - there are just too many obstacles on the oral route.

The first obstacle is the mouth itself. The mouth is a veritable fortress, standing against all sorts of pathogens we come into contact with every minute of our lives. It's a very hostile environment and saliva has been shown to contain over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv.

Hiv is a very fragile virus - literally. Its outer surface doesn't take kindly to changes in its preferred environment; slight changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels all damage the outer surface. Importantly, it needs this outer surface to be intact before it can latch onto a few, very specific cell types and infect. 

Which leads to the second obstacle. Hiv can only latch onto certain types of cells, cells which are not found in abundance in the mouth.

The third obstacle to transmission this way is having hiv present in the first place. The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix. You're not going to reach the cervix with your tongue unless you've got a six or seven inch tongue when measuring from your teeth outwards. (if you do, can I have your phone number? - settle down, I'm joking)

The fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, located on either side of the vaginal opening. I have yet to discover one shred of evidence (and believe me, I've looked) that shows this lubricating fluid to have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids.

So there you have it. Once the results of the serodiscordant studies started rolling in, what we know about hiv transmission on the cellular level was validated. The only people who were getting infected were those who had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. Period. One of the three studies went on for ten years and involved hundreds of couples. That's a lot of nookie.

I was with an hiv negative man for over eight years and oral sex was very much a part of our sex life. No, we did not use dental dams or condoms for oral and yet he remained hiv negative and is hiv negative to this day. The only time we used a barrier (condoms) was for anal or vaginal intercourse - because that's all we needed to do in order to protect his negative hiv status. Also, I was not on hiv meds at that time so I always had a detectable viral load.

I will confidently allow any hiv negative man give me oral sex (well, not any man, but you know what I mean) because I am completely sure that it is not a transmission route for hiv. And believe me, my virus stops with me. I would be devastated if i was ever the source of another person's infection.

My (negative) partner and I were actually given a pack of dental dams when I was first diagnosed. When we got them home and had a look, they were ridiculous. We figured the only thing they'd be good for was ground sheets for mice who liked to go camping. They were even green. ::)

Going down on a woman is NOT a risk for hiv infection, no matter what some well-meaning but ill-informed prevention "specialist" might tell you to the contrary. A lot of these so-called specialist are not living with the virus themselves, and can hold some prejudicial fears about how transmission actually works. You'd be best off getting your advice from someone who is knowledgeable and hiv positive. That's where you're more likely to get the real deal. We don't just talk the talk, we walk the walk every day of our lives as well.

Ann
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 04:26:30 PM by Ann »
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

 


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