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Author Topic: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?  (Read 2268 times)

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Offline tednlou2

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Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« on: June 05, 2012, 11:27:16 PM »
Have electrical issue and plan to call an electrician.  In the meantime, I thought it wouldn't hurt to see if any of our members are/were electricians or are pretty knowledgeable.  The question is more detailed and not the usual, How to install a new light. 

Offline leatherman

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 11:39:13 PM »
How to install a new light.
turn off the circuit breaker first.

google: how to install a light fixture  ;D
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 12:37:28 AM »
turn off the circuit breaker first.

google: how to install a light fixture  ;D

LOL!  To clarify, it is more complicated than the usual questions of How do I install a new light. 

We have a detached garage.  There's a breaker in the main house panel for the garage (line runs underground to garage) and the garage also has a small breaker panel of its own.  The breaker panel in the garage has a ground wire that runs outside to a metal stake that is in concrete.  The concrete and stake are super hot--you can only touch it for a second.  That's how hot it is.  The breaker panel is not hot and nothing has tripped.  I turned off the electricity to the garage until I can get an electrician.  I'm sure that will cost a pretty penny just to have them come look at it.  I don't think it is normal for it to be hot.  I don't think it is overloaded, because there isn't that much running on it.  When I noticed it today, the only thing pulling power was the pond pump.  Didn't have any lights on or anything else plugged in.  I have no idea why a ground wire would even get hot.  I would think if something was overloaded, breakers would trip and wires in the panel would fry.   

Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 01:19:15 AM »

  The breaker panel is not hot and nothing has tripped.  I turned off the electricity to the garage until I can get an electrician.  I don't think it is normal for it to be hot. 


No !! The grounding stake, should not be hot ! There may be something wrong with the underground wiring to the garage.  An electrician, should very easily be able to check this. I have seen loose neutral connections, cause similar problems, especially if it starts burning through.

At any point, a short to ground, should trip the breaker ( ground fault interrupter) related to the short, so something is definitely wrong.

Could possibly be something going on with the pond pump.

If it is an underground problem, you will most likely have to run a new feed to the panel box in the garage.

An electrician should be able to isolate the problem quickly, by  testing.

Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline leatherman

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 01:23:22 AM »
LOL!  To clarify, it is more complicated than the usual questions of How do I install a new light. 
sorry I couldn't help it.  ;D

Ray's very right though. A ground shouldn't get hot. Be safe, call an electrician. ;)
leatherman (aka mIkIE)


chart from 1992-2013; updated 2/09/13  Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 02:33:41 AM »

No !! The grounding stake, should not be hot ! There may be something wrong with the underground wiring to the garage.  An electrician, should very easily be able to check this. I have seen loose neutral connections, cause similar problems, especially if it starts burning through.

At any point, a short to ground, should trip the breaker ( ground fault interrupter) related to the short, so something is definitely wrong.

Could possibly be something going on with the pond pump.

If it is an underground problem, you will most likely have to run a new feed to the panel box in the garage.

An electrician should be able to isolate the problem quickly, by  testing.

Ray

Thanks for the info.  I shut power off to the pump (which was the only thing pulling power when I noticed the problem) and it was still hot.  The issue with a problem in the underground wiring is concerning.  We actually had a problem a couple years ago.  There is a metal car port attached to the garage.  On a few occasions, we would get shocked when touching the carport in bare feet.  We thought electricity was leaking underground.  The carport is attached to concrete--the same concrete the ground stake is in. 

What was also strange was getting shocked by our basement sink water.  The water lines for that sink run down the concrete basement wall.  At that time, we didn't have carpet in the basement yet.  When standing in barefeet on the concrete floor, you would get a good shock by the running water.  We were perplexed.  We thought how could electricity be leaking from the underground conduit (possibly could be ran without for all I know) and reaching the basement sink water lines--going through concrete walls.  We thought we had a separate problem.  However, when we shut the breaker off to the garage, the problem with the sink and the carport were gone.  We were about to call an electrician then, but the problem stopped and we weren't getting shocked.  I know, we still should have checked into this.   

So, I think you're on to something here.  I bet we will end up having to run a new wire underground.  I'm hoping it was run in the ground inside conduit, so it will be easier to pull new wire through without having to dig up the ground.  It leaves the house in conduit and enters the garage in conduit, but I understand that is code and can be laid without underground.  So, that may be the case.   

Again, thanks!

Offline pozniceguy

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 12:37:49 PM »
Ted  the  ground  wire is  hot  because there is  current  running  through it...(  like a electric  heater  gets hot) ....definitely a problem  almost  certainly a break in the  insulation somewhere  that is  allowing current to flow  form Hot  wire (  usually Black one, )  to the  ground.....   dont   fool with this....get  someone with the  right tester to  find the  break...not only is it  dangerous  but it is  running up  your  electric  bill   just like a heater would


Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline wolfter

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2012, 01:18:14 PM »
A loose neutral wire can cause voltage to flow through the grounding system since they are wired off of the same bar.  I would certainly verify that all the neutral wires (white) are tight and secure. I suspect if you check the main neutral line that feeds the house, you'll find a loose connection. 

Wolfie
productivity breeds content

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2012, 04:45:18 PM »
Disclaimer:  I am not electrician.  That said, you need to get one ASAP.  Like others have suggested, this sounds like an open neutral situation, which will cause current to flow through the ground wire to complete the circuit.  Dangerous!!!
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline OneTampa

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 08:08:01 PM »
Please get a professional, quick, fast, and in a hurry.
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline denb45

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 09:16:18 PM »
Teddy..... make sure they are a certified Electricain and if you go the contractor route, make sure they  have a current Contractor License  ;)
"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 11:03:21 PM »
Thanks everyone for the tips.  I've turned power off to the garage.  I talked to an electrician today by phone.  He mentioned a possible problem with the underground wire.  And, he also talked about the garage breaker box not being bonded correctly.  I didn't know exactly what that meant.  We have always been able to install lights, plugs, install junction boxes and all that.  But, some things get more difficult.  He mentioned a neutral wire not being connected properly to a screw in the box, so it is trying to find ground any way it can.  He is going to try to come out as soon as possible.  $75 for the first half hour and $40 for each additional half hour. 

My partner has a fellow firefighter who is an certified electrician, so he's going to see if he can come take a look for free, or cheaply.  I have no idea how long this has been happening.  If it is connected to the issue with getting shocked a few years ago, then it's been going on for a while.  It will be interesting to see if our electric bill goes down, as we thought the same thing about it pulling more power. 


Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 04:32:41 AM »
  And, he also talked about the garage breaker box not being bonded correctly.  I didn't know exactly what that meant. 


Here's a little article mentioning the difference between "bonding" and " Grounding"

http://www.rhtubs.com/bonding.htm




Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline J.R.E.

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  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 05:00:23 AM »
Ted,

One more thing.  Since your panel box in the garage is actually a "Sub Panel"

You may find this interesting:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UBKzUM14tw&feature=related



Let us know what the electrician says the problem is.


Good luck---Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,770
Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2012, 01:51:12 AM »

Here's a little article mentioning the difference between "bonding" and " Grounding"

http://www.rhtubs.com/bonding.htm




Ray

Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to find this info and the youtube video.  I'll also show it to the better half in the morning.  I appreciate it very much, and I'm learning more.  I was a bit confused by the sub panel not needing a grounding rod, because only the main panel should be grounded.  Did I read that correctly?  I think our main panel is grounded to the main water line.  Not knowing much about electricity (besides the very basics), I first thought that was odd to ground to a pipe carrying our water.  Water+electricity=bad, I thought.  But, I guess that is standard practice?  We began to wonder whether there could be an issue at the main panel--either garage breaker not installed properly or main panel not grounded properly.   

I was in Lowe's tonight in the lighting dept looking at some landscape lights.  I thought I would run this problem by the guy working there, who I've talked to before and seems knowledgeable.  Obviously, he couldn't say what the problem is.  However, he did wonder whether the grounding rod was a proper one--whether it was buried deep enough into the ground and whether we had the correct kind of wire coming out of the sub panel to the rod.  We showed him the kind we had--or what looked like it.  He suggested it wasn't good enough to carry the load.  He showed us this other wire and suggested we may need to install a new ground rod and new cable. 

Anyway, we ARE going to leave it to professionals.  I'll report back what the problem is. 

Offline J.R.E.

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  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 06:53:34 AM »
  I was a bit confused by the sub panel not needing a grounding rod, because only the main panel should be grounded.  Did I read that correctly? 

Hi,

Yes, that's the way I read it also. But, when you ran the feed wires from the main panel in the house, to the panel in the garage,( underground and in conduit),  It should have consisted of a ground wire, that would have connected the house panel to the garage panel.

I think this is where the bonding strap or screw come into play on the garage panel.


Ray
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline tednlou2

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2012, 01:56:09 AM »
Well, I know everyone here has been on the edge of their seats, wondering whether I got this problem solved, and are so glad I bumped the thread.  ;)  But, we think we've solved the problem.  Seriously, even though it isn't the most exciting thread, I know I've learned more about our friend and foe, Electricity.   

We replaced the grounding wire.  I kept reading over and over how a grounding wire should be bare copper, and should be the proper gauge.  It appears ours was neither.  Ours was coated and was not big enough.  We went to Lowes and bought a piece of 4 gauge, bare copper wire with a wire clamp.  The grounding rod is now completely cool.  You can chill your favorite beverage with it.  It is still confusing to me though.  I would have thought if the grounding wire was not correct, the wire would have gotten hot.  It always stayed cool, with the rod being super hot. 

I'm posting a pic below of the old wire and the new.  We believe this issue has been going on for years, probably as long as electricity has been going to the garage.  It is probably responsible for the shocks we were getting around the garage.  I keep reading and told that if not grounded properly, electricity will search out ground anywhere it can.  If you look at the concrete where the rod is, the concrete has deteriorated.  I think that extreme heat over years caused that dip in the concrete.  The rod was super hot.  You could not grab it.  You were just able to tap your hand against it, or you would get burned.   

Knock wood, I think we fixed the problem without spending a fortune.  By the way, my partner's electrician friend said we may consider putting in a ground rod for the main house panel, saying it being grounded to the water line may not be good enough.  We may do that--not sure.  Right now, I'm thinking if it ain't broke, don't mess with it.       




Offline J.R.E.

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Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2012, 04:59:03 AM »
I keep reading and told that if not grounded properly, electricity will search out ground anywhere it can. 

And it does so, by finding the path of least resistance.  In this case, the path of least resistance, were you and your partner.  It explains the electrical shocks you guys were getting, from different areas in the garage, due to a defective ground.

Glad to hear you got it worked out, but I would still take the electricians advice about the grounding of the panel inside the house.

If you are still getting electrical shocks around the garage, there may still be a problem.


Take care---Ray

Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline J.R.E.

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,099
  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 6/4/14,  t-cells are at 423, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 13% 

  
 62 years young.

Offline weasel

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,644
Re: Any Electricians Here, Or Electrically Knowledgeable?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 09:36:02 PM »


 All electric Panels   need a UFER GROUND !

  Bonding to the water heater is nearly useless when any plastic pipe is

  involved !

   It is not that hard to  slam a Copper glad 8 foot rod into the earth
   and connect a wire with a clamp !   

   All of my  fuse panels are BONDED to the box and UFER ground !

   In Las Vegas I had to bury  25 foot of copper wire in Cement for a Ufer Ground .

    Here in Missouri  the 8 foot rod works just fine .

   Glad you found out what it was with out getting soaked .

                                                       Weasel
" Live and let Live "

 


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